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Petition to Bioware- Victory Through Refusal

Débuté par Skirata129 , juil. 17 2012 02:35

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#176
3DandBeyond
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 01:46

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N7Gold wrote...

Making conventional victory possible wouldn't make any sense, considering how much ships it took for the Alliance to take down Sovereign...


It only makes no sense because the writers did not want to have to write it.  Everything is impossible until you do it.  And it took 2 missiles to take down one reaper in London, so different thinking (not conventional use and conventional tactics).

The greatest Alliance military minds keep running at the reapers headlong and shooting them with projectiles when they have strong kinetic barriers-their barriers are weaker when on a planet and they have vulerabilities.  So no, running straight at them and shooting them won't work.

#177
cavs25
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 01:46

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I don't get it.
For those who think conventional victory is impossible then don't win conventionally....use the space magic game show instead. Everyone is happy..
And don't say that conventional victory doesn't make sense and space magic does please.....
At least a conventional victory fits in a lot better with the Mass Effect themes "Overcoming the odds" "Strength in diversity" "A galaxy working together to do the impossible"

#178
ld1449
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 02:12

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If you people paid attention to tactics or the codex conventional victory is possible.

#179
Guest_Calinstel_*
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 02:15

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Haiyato wrote...

 But honestly one vs one no problem I believe we can win no problem. But a fleet vs fleet nope. Because if that was the case, the Reapers would have had a hard time getting past the First, second, third, fourth and fifth fleets since they were are station around Arturus station which is near the Charon Relay, well at least that is what I gathered from the wiki. Considering that the First Fleet is the Alliance's largest fleet which lost about 10% of its ships at the cost of sacrificing the entire second fleet and so on.

Oh, I agree.  In a straight head on full fleet against full fleet, a conventional win would be stretching it a might but that is not what we have in ME3.  The Reapers are spread across the entire galaxy.  Some places, exceptionally thinly.

The Reapers caught everyone offguard in the swiftness of their attacks.  Think Pearl Harbor there.  Surprise attack, possibly half the ships with only skeleton crews.  Easy victory no matter how you slice it.
But, with the entire galactic fleet, spearheaded by the Normandy, could have retaken the Sol system.  This I do believe.  Then as the Reapers regrouped to squash the galactic fleet, it disappears to strike another target.
BW stated they wanted to use WWII as a reference.  They stopped way too soon.  Sure, Pearl Harbor (Arturas Station) fell but that victory was short lived.  The Reapers overconfidence is their greatest weakness, otherwise, they would have taken the Citadel and disabled the Relays.  They did not and that left the door wide open for hit and run tactics and concentrated fire.

In a way, ME3 should have been the end of one trilogy and the beginning of another.  'Take back Earth' for ME3 proper and 'The war of wars' for a trilogy of games of total galactic war and ending with either the Reapers or the Galactic alliance winning in the 3rd installment.

Yes, dreaming but damn, that would have been epic.
In ME3, the Reapers are not gone, just one pocket routed/destroyed.

Anyway.  The game is over and any wishes I or others might have are dust beneath the heels of writers with a vision, even if that vision was (In MY opinion) poor.  :)

#180
GreyLycanTrope
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 02:22

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Seival wrote...

No, Greylycantrope. You are just too indecisive to accept the endings... No offence.

ME Trilogy and its ending is Masterpiece. And in time everyone will understand that.

Pull the other one
I am decisive I know exactly what I want, this ending is not it, and it is far from a masterpiece.

#181
Guest_Calinstel_*
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 02:24

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ZLurps wrote...


You are cherry picking. Cite whole of the relevant entry.
"The barriers of a Reaper destroyer are less formidable than those of a capital ship. It is possible for a single cruiser or many fighters to disable or demolish a destroyer if they can get within range before they are themselves destroyed."

We see destroyers three shots Alliance Dreadnought in the beginning of ME3. actually not sure if it's really destroyer and can't find solid info what it is atm.

Anyway, you know, I can kill a lion with a spear, if said lion is tied to the ground.

Actually, on the ship that explodes in the beginning of ME3, it can take 10000000000 hits.
Just stop moving as soon as you see it and it just repeats the attack until you far enough up to trigger the explosion to dump you from the building.  :)   But that IS being a snit.

And yes, I am cherry picking but the fact that I can means something is off.  The codex has been changed so often to account for the changes introduced in ME2 and ME3 that it's really just a neat thing to read.  But I still hold most of what it says as true.

Anyway, what I meant to say is that what was once solid, smooth, granite supplying a firm footing is now more akin to gravel.   Some changes better, some worse but still no longer the solid foundation ME was founded on.

#182
3DandBeyond
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 02:35

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Greylycantrope wrote...

Seival wrote...

No, Greylycantrope. You are just too indecisive to accept the endings... No offence.

ME Trilogy and its ending is Masterpiece. And in time everyone will understand that.

Pull the other one
I am decisive I know exactly what I want, this ending is not it, and it is far from a masterpiece.


A masterpiece might have actually continued with the themes of unity, diversity, overcoming adversity, and redemption.  An ending masterpiece would have needed to be one that kept the goal and antagonists intact and actually featured writing and exposition where ingenuity overcomes a great and almost impossible foe.

This would have been or could have been a "coming of age" story for the galaxy.  The galaxy had been like the reaper's children-advancing on a pre-ordained path, only learning and becoming what they were along a timeline set up by the reapers.

An epic confrontation between the nightmare that has kept the galaxy down and created a lot of stagnation could have led to a real renaissance of creativity and cooperation between all people.  It could have shown a restored faith in people's own abilities.

A masterpiece isn't some trumped up pseudo-intellectual bunch of nonsense that is tacked onto the end of a rather straightforward story.  It also isn't the insistence of some non-existent excuse for genocide that the hero must believe in order to "fix" that problem (not the goal) or that the hero must reject and in so doing kill everyone s/he cares about.

I know a masterpiece when I see one and this isn't one.

#183
Archonsg
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 02:40

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All this "conventional victory" is impossible argument is moot really.
It is impossible only because Bioware says it is.
As so many have pointed out, it is Bioware's story. It is impossible because they wrote it that way. They can just as easily write it to MAKE IT POSSIBLE.

That they didn't, well, that is the point isn't it?
The real question would be, would it be commercially viable for them to do so?
Would people pay a $4.90, $9.90, $19.90 or even a $29.90 DLC for an alternate ending DLC that GIVES a conventional victory via refusal option, gives Shepard that "and Shepard retires with LI and lives their remaining live in peace...with blue babies, house on Rannoch...whatever."

I would. Just to give ME3 a justified ending it deserves.
The current Mac-Hudson ending is just too much of a "FU!" to anyone who doesn't want to fall into their rabbit hole starbrat ending.

Modifié par Archonsg, 18 juillet 2012 - 02:41 .

#184
3DandBeyond
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 02:45

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Archonsg wrote...

All this "conventional victory" is impossible argument is moot really.
It is impossible only because Bioware says it is.
As so many have pointed out, it is Bioware's story. It is impossible because they wrote it that way. They can just as easily write it to MAKE IT POSSIBLE.

That they didn't, well, that is the point isn't it?
The real question would be, would it be commercially viable for them to do so?
Would people pay a $4.90, $9.90, $19.90 or even a $29.90 DLC for an alternate ending DLC that GIVES a conventional victory via refusal option, gives Shepard that "and Shepard retires with LI and lives their remaining live in peace...with blue babies, house on Rannoch...whatever."

I would. Just to give ME3 a justified ending it deserves.
The current Mac-Hudson ending is just too much of a "FU!" to anyone who doesn't want to fall into their rabbit hole starbrat ending.


People have also suggested even just a reunion DLC-they'd pay for it.  And others have suggested the reject ending be turned into a true conventional war attempt, not just a "game over", in DLC that you pay for.

Since other SP DLC is certainly in the works and it is pre-ending DLC, without serious change to what we have that is just as moot as all of our wishes.

You are correct-it's totally in Bioware's hands and there is still a very slim chance they can redeem this "mess".  Replayability is non-existent and without that DLC is not really desirable.

#185
shurikenmanta
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 03:13

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I will support this on one condition:

It relies on a realistic EMS figure. 250000, minimum. That's the absolute minimum you'd need to match the technological and military superiority of the Reapers.

#186
Blueprotoss
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 05:25

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iakus wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

flanny wrote...

I agree with you but bioware don't care about their fans anymore, they only care about their 'art'.

bioware will never make an ending better than their 'art'. at this point all you can do is headcanon

If you think caring about fans means only doing what fans specifically ask for, then you have literally zero perspective.


Caring about fans means giving them a variety of endings for their Shepard.  

What we got was "You exist because we allow it, and will end because we demand it"

Yet this is a straw-mann especially when you look at the Mako removal/addition/removal, planet scanning addition/removal, streamlined armor additions,  tweaked classes/powers, and shooter mechanics are just a few exmples of listening some of the changes based on "fan" feedback throughout the trilogy.

#187
Blueprotoss
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 05:26

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cavs25 wrote...

I don't get it.
For those who think conventional victory is impossible then don't win conventionally....use the space magic game show instead. Everyone is happy..
And don't say that conventional victory doesn't make sense and space magic does please.....
At least a conventional victory fits in a lot better with the Mass Effect themes "Overcoming the odds" "Strength in diversity" "A galaxy working together to do the impossible"

Ironicaly space magic is everywhere based on the effects of Element Zero.

#188
ZLurps
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 07:28

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3DandBeyond wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

Making conventional victory possible wouldn't make any sense, considering how much ships it took for the Alliance to take down Sovereign...


It only makes no sense because the writers did not want to have to write it.  Everything is impossible until you do it.  And it took 2 missiles to take down one reaper in London, so different thinking (not conventional use and conventional tactics).

The greatest Alliance military minds keep running at the reapers headlong and shooting them with projectiles when they have strong kinetic barriers-their barriers are weaker when on a planet and they have vulerabilities.  So no, running straight at them and shooting them won't work.


After two missiles hit Shepard says, "Hit it with everything you got". Then it goes down. Also, it needed very special kind of hero and team to make it possible.

Overall, London is key point of ME3. Alliance is concentrating everything they can to London. Results, 2 Reaper destroyers are eliminated while Alliance take really awful losses. In the final run only Shepard and Anderson makes ti to the beam for all the forces that makes that run.

It's just that taking down one single Reaper takes enermous amounts of resources and unless you have air superioty, you are going to take awful losses. At the same time Reapers keep getting stronger by indotrinating your population.

I really don't see conventional victory here.

#189
ZLurps
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 07:30

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ld1449 wrote...

If you people paid attention to tactics or the codex conventional victory is possible.



It says with right weapons, tacticts etc. All what galactic fleet doesn't have.

#190
Sajuro
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 07:41

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No

#191
ImperatorMortis
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 07:52

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Its not going to happen. Ever.

You've already got your extended cut. You think ANYONE would use more resources just for the ending? Hell no.

If you want a conventional victory(for this cycle) by choosing refuse then read fanfiction.

#192
the_last_krogan
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 08:05

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victory conventionally..... a kick ass untied fleets of the milky way blowing reapers the hel up.. not blue ,green, red, or give up like a sissy endings

#193
riesenwiesel
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 08:43

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ld1449 wrote...

If you people paid attention to tactics or the codex conventional victory is possible.

Codex says: 

Direct attacks: lose
Guerrilla-tactics: chance to win

So conventional victory may have been possible, but in this regard the full scale direct attack on Earth is a very bad idea and pretty much destoys the chance for a conventional victory. The "united galaxy" just committed itself to the crucible. Sad but true.

Modifié par riesenwiesel, 18 juillet 2012 - 08:43 .

#194
Arsenic Touch
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 08:46

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Conventional victory should've been tied into refuse, but instead we get a giant middle finger.

If you gathered max war assets possible in game, convential war = win.
If you missed a lot, conventional war = lose.

So much potential and added game play where you go through each system cleaning them out. Space battles/ground battles. But nooooooooooo.

#195
Kataphrut94
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 09:03

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These threads are becoming completely sad. Bioware is not going to completely re-write an entire game just to please a bunch of ungrateful misery-guts who still can't accept that the series didn't end in the way they wanted it to.

They won't change it. They have no right to change it, they have no desire to revisit this issue now that the Extended Cut is out, and the fanbase hasn't done anything to deserve a better ending. Can everyone please drop it and find something else to talk about?

#196
crimzontearz
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 09:55

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does it matter what I desire or want? Bioware apparently does not care

#197
Ryudoz28
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 10:01

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Image IPB

#198
Random Geth
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 10:04

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It won't happen, ever. BioWare has long stopped caring about making sense, and Refuse was obviously a middle finger to everyone who sort of noticed how you kill every Reaper you encounter. It would make sense and be a good idea, yes. As such, they definitely won't do it. It would also give EMS any purpose at all besides completely ridiculous arbitrary gate closing/opening, which is another reason it won't happen. They'd HATE it if EMS had any real meaning.

#199
Skirata129
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 10:08

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Kataphrut94 wrote...
the fanbase hasn't done anything to deserve a better ending.



Not entirely sure how to respond to this part.

#200
Dean_the_Young
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 10:23

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AlanC9 wrote...

Baa Baa wrote...

Mass Effect 2 was written as if there was no chance of you coming back from the Suicide Mission, and it just so happens that you can get everyone out alive.


Except that in ME2 there was no particular reason to think that it really was a suicide mission. There wasn't any information available about what lay beyond the Omega-4 Relay, so determining the actual odds of success was just guesswork.

Hell, the real reason it was deemed as a suicide mission was because of the Omega Relay. Once the Reaper IFF was recovered and replicated, the Collectors were doomed.
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