207 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Ragadurn wrote...
Perhaps Loghain should have been imprisoned or something, but I didn't want to lose Alistair for sparing him. He deserved to fight against the blight till the end.

But Alastair would still end up fighting the darkspawn till he dies, all wardens generally do as long as they aren't bumped off by corrupt Teyrns/Arls, bandits, crazy cultists etc...

As much as he claims he can just 'walk away' at some point either a Warden is going to track him down to kill him to ensure the secrets are safe or he is going to end up on the deep roads making his last stand. Even if he becomes King instead.

"Do you hear that sound Alastair? That is the sound of inevitability, that is the sound of your death!"

[Ragadurn]

I meant "fight at my side against the Blight till the Archdemon is dead".

Problem being, I read he would run away or at least not join my group anymore if I spared Loghain.

I'm pretty sure I would have made Loghain a Grey Warden if I hadn't known.
Let fate decide whether he lives or not. Have him pay a price.

But the whole Ostagar thing and most of my family dead was a rather strong point in convincing me killing Loghain to be okay. However, I would have liked having him die in the duel, not being executioned afterwards.

Modifié par Ragadurn, 18 décembre 2009 - 01:55 .

[eschilde]

Ragadurn wrote...

I meant "fight at my side against the Blight till the Archdemon is dead".

Problem being, I read he would run away or at least not join my group anymore if I spared Loghain.

I'm pretty sure I would have made Loghain a Grey Warden if I hadn't known.
Let fate decide whether he lives or not. Have him pay a price.

But the whole Ostagar thing and most of my family dead was a rather strong point in convincing me killing Loghain to be okay. However, I would have liked having him die in the duel, not being executioned afterwards.

Agreed. Forfeiting in a duel seems out of character for him anyway :|

[doubledeviant]

eschilde wrote...

My answer to this question.. is for the same reason that Achilles chose to become a warrior and die young rather than living a long, happy life (well.. depending on how you hear the story told, anyway). Glory and an awesome funeral, and being remembered forever.

Long happy life > Glory and an awesome funeral

In most cases.  ;-)

From an RP perspective, you can consider it the only right thing to do since it's the only proven way to permanently kill the archdemon.

Most of Ferelden's institutions are as corrupt as the Archdemon, and I don't find myself having an overwhelming desire to kill the Archdemon.  Self-preservation would suffice, perhaps, but self-sacrifice nullifies that motivation.

From a gameplay perspective, I found the martyr ending to be the most touching.

To answer the OP, just because you don't like the current system doesn't mean the world isn't worth dying for. It'll never have a chance to progress if it keeps getting held back by darkspawn.. constant war tends to leave countries behind in technologies.

Lack of advanced technology is not the primary cause of human (and elven, and dwarven, and mage) problems.  It has more to do with stupidity and the choices that people make, the injustices that people tolerate and even propagate, than what technology is available to them.

Curlain wrote...

Ah, you're only gonna die in 30yrs time down some dank, cold, dark Deep Road tunnel somwhere with some no-one darkspawn hurlock/genlock/shrike going nom-nom-nom on your femur anyway.

Maybe you are.  But I'm not so sure that I'll be answering the Calling, Grey Wardens be damned.  Or perhaps I'll answer the Calling by allowing the Taint to transform me and serving the Old Gods (Archdemons).  Or perhaps I'll find a way to remove the Taint from myself.  Who knows what glorious adventures the future holds for the bold?

May as well go in style, die young and with glory, slaying in style, taking the Archdemon with you an getting a great funeral, celebration and parade in your honour (not to mention a special grave with likely statue beside the other chosen few of the Grey Wardens that ever other Warden will look up to.

Die young, in style, and have them tell glorious stories about you I say :-)

Long happy life > Glory and an awesome funeral

In most cases.  ;-)

Astranagant wrote...

Kinda hard to go following Morrigan like a lost puppy when you're dead.

Meh.  Never liked Morrigan.  ;-)

Ravenshrike wrote...

This is something I've never understood. If the poor have greater purchasing power than they did when the 'rift' was closer, why does it matter that the rich are getting richer faster than the poor?

The problem is that our society is based on debt, exploitation, and unequal (often idoitic) distribution of wealth.  But thats veering waaay off topic, most likely.  ;-)

The only motivation that I see working in any way for me involves (as some have put forth) saving those you care for, or perhaps saving the good people amidst the teeming masses of filfth.  But then again, why not call those to my banner instead?  Let them aid in the glorious holocaust to come!  We will rebuild a new, shinier world!  One with lots of cake!

Modifié par doubledeviant, 18 décembre 2009 - 08:51 .

[FireDragon076]

How about you go out like a champ? No growing old, dying in your bed in a puddle of your own urine. Its a badass way to go out, everybody has to do it, stop being a pansy about it.

[Sialater]

FireDragon076 wrote...

How about you go out like a champ? No growing old, dying in your bed in a puddle of your own urine. Its a badass way to go out, everybody has to do it, stop being a pansy about it.

No Grey Warden gets that option.

[eschilde]

Lack of advanced technology is not the primary cause of human (and elven, and dwarven, and mage) problems. It has more to do with stupidity and the choices that people make, the injustices that people tolerate and even propagate, than what technology is available to them.

Technologies in this case also refers to ideas, including philosophies.

[doubledeviant]

eschilde wrote...

Technologies in this case also refers to ideas, including philosophies.

An excellent and intelligent point.  But as much as I love philosophy, advanced philosophical ideas aren't always necessary to determine basic ethical truths:  Often common sense and an open, intelligent mind often suffice.  ;-)

[AntiChri5]

Why would you destroy the world just because it isn't perfect? Jesish people arent perfect (no group of people is) so by your logic Hiitler had the right idea.

[Xandurpein]

doubledeviant wrote...

The human nobility is corrupt.

The dwarven social system is unjust.

The elves are a bitter and broken people.

Mages submit to a hypocritical church and live as its prisoners.

Why would you sacrifice yourself to preserve this status quo?

Hells, if you can't tear down these institutions, why not join up with the Archdemon and watch it all burn?  Or at the least head north to Orlais, let Ferelden fall, and force the Grey Wardens of Orlais to deal with the Blight?

Perhaps I'll make a mod called "Head North" that ends the game immediately following or perhaps even before the battle at Ostagar.  :-D

Perhaps Gaider's point is that it isn't worth sacrficing yourself and your friends/lovers for?  His characters who sacrifice moral principles or love for the sake of duty to kingdom or cause (Maric, Loghain, Rowan, others) live a life full of regret and pain.  Thoughts?

I'm nearing the end of the game and I have no motivation to sacrfice myself to save this world.  I've read that there are multiple endings including but not limited to self-sacrifice, so I'm hoping for a decent ending for my character.

I'm curious to know why (from a RP perspective) you might be willing to sac yourself, so feel free to share your thoughts on why I'm wrong and vile and evil.  ;-)

Well... you are of course correct. Any living human being that do not live up to your own personal code of ethics naturally deserve to die. The sooner the better, right?

[doubledeviant]

Xandurpein wrote...

Well... you are of course correct. Any living human being that do not live up to your own personal code of ethics naturally deserve to die. The sooner the better, right?

Exactly!  At last, someone has the right idea!  ;-)

On a serious note, the question isn't "Kill them or let them be?"  The question is "Kill them or die for them?"  Makes a difference.  My character isn't dying to protect the corrupt and stupid from a deserved fate.
 
Also, it should be obvious that one of true purposes of this thread is a sneaky attempt at saying, "How about some REAL opportunities for evil roleplaying?"  Something other than "Give me all your crap or I'll kill you!"  Where's the "grey" angle promised over and over again?  How about options for Magneto-type characters (from the 90's X-men comics, in which it's Xavier's dream vs. Magneto's pragmatism)?  Good men pushed too far, having lost faith in the world, willing to do whatever it takes to force the world or at least of piece of it into a better state.  Something interesting, for Sandal's sake.

Modifié par doubledeviant, 19 décembre 2009 - 03:06 .

[eschilde]

doubledeviant wrote...
Also, it should be obvious that one of true purposes of this thread is a sneaky attempt at saying, "How about some REAL opportunities for evil roleplaying?"  Something other than "Give me all your crap or I'll kill you!"  Where's the "grey" angle promised over and over again?  How about options for Magneto-type characters (from the 90's X-men comics, in which it's Xavier's dream vs. Magneto's pragmatism)?  Good men pushed too far, having lost faith in the world, willing to do whatever it takes to force the world or at least of piece of it into a better state.  Something interesting, for Sandal's sake.

I think grey and evil are different. I'd say the whole Orzammar arc was grey. Could say that about the Dalish segment too, since you can decide to have the werewolves kill the elves. What exactly are you asking for? The only real bad things you could do are side with the Archdemon or pull an Alistair and run away, but you kinda can't do that since the whole premise of DA:O is to take responsibility as a GW. 

[AntiChri5]

doubledeviant wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Well... you are of course correct. Any living human being that do not live up to your own personal code of ethics naturally deserve to die. The sooner the better, right?

Exactly!  At last, someone has the right idea!  ;-)

On a serious note, the question isn't "Kill them or let them be?"  The question is "Kill them or die for them?"  Makes a difference.  My character isn't dying to protect the corrupt from a deserved fate.
 
Also, it should be obvious that one of true purposes of this thread is a sneaky attempt at saying, "How about some REAL opportunities for evil roleplaying?"  Something other than "Give me all your crap or I'll kill you!"  Where's the "grey" angle promised over and over again?  How about options for Magneto-type characters (from the 90's X-men comics, in which it's Xavier's dream vs. Magneto's pragmatism)?  Good men pushed too far, having lost faith in the world, willing to do whatever it takes to force the world or at least of piece of it into a better state.  Something interesting, for Sandal's sake.

Evil is not Grey. Grey is ambiguos. I feel they delivered on that. Being evil can be fun (still delighted over my first KotOR ending all those years ago) but you do realize that the Archdemon does not have freinds right? It has slaves. You don't HAVE to sacrifice yourself. Allistair volunteers and you can basically say "sure have fun!"

[Original182]

doubledeviant wrote...
I'm curious to know why (from a RP perspective) you might be willing to sac yourself, so feel free to share your thoughts on why I'm wrong and vile and evil.  ;-)

The same reason why your soldiers are putting their lives in danger, so that people like you can abuse your rights. And the way you created your thread, clearly you must be american.

Let me simplify it for you.

Soldiers = Grey Wardens
Terrorists = Darkspawn
Ferelden = US

Modifié par Original182, 19 décembre 2009 - 03:27 .

[doubledeviant]

eschilde wrote...

I think grey and evil are different. I'd say the whole Orzammar arc was grey. Could say that about the Dalish segment too, since you can decide to have the werewolves kill the elves. What exactly are you asking for? The only real bad things you could do are side with the Archdemon or pull an Alistair and run away, but you kinda can't do that since the whole premise of DA:O is to take responsibility as a GW. 

Orzammar is a great example of missed opportunity.  ;-)

How about killing Harrowmont AND Bhelen?  Leading the casteless in rebellion?  Saying to hells with the Assembly and recruiting from the casteless (fashioning an army that might later return and conquer Orzammar in the epilogue)?  Killing Jarvia and using her criminal empire as an the instrument of the above?  Things which might be evil but are a bit more complex than "I want that s***.  Let's kill 'em!"

As it stands, your "evil" option is to sacrifice your moral principles to do whatever it takes to win and save a world not worth saving, to do your "duty".  Lawful neutral, in D&D.  And you get to extort some money and items out of people.  Not that interesting, to me at least.
If I can't change it, then it can burn.  Maybe I'll even light the first torch. 

@Original182:  I'm not going to justify your comments with a proper response until you clarify your meaning...  What does America have to do with this?

Modifié par doubledeviant, 19 décembre 2009 - 04:34 .

[AntiChri5]

So basically you just want to be Evil Emperor Of The Universe What Is Awesome?

[tausra]

Because to be honest you're acting like an 8 yr old child, I can't get what I want so It must be terrible mentality. No sane person would dare lead a rebellion of the casteless when there's a Blight threatening to end the world. You don't have the luxury of a year and a half to piddle your thumbs on pointless impossibilities. There are flaws but the whole idea of being an anarchist for anarchy's sake doesn't fit into the scheme and idea of being a Grey Warden.

The rest of the Order would eventually enter Ferelden and put down your half-baked revolution and then kill you for it.

Modifié par tausra, 19 décembre 2009 - 04:36 .

[eschilde]

tausra wrote...

Because to be honest you're acting like an 8 yr old child, I can't get what I want so It must be terrible mentality. No sane person would dare lead a rebellion of the casteless when there's a Blight threatening to end the world. You don't have the luxury of a year and a half to piddle your thumbs on pointless impossibilities. There are flaws but the whole idea of being an anarchist for anarchy's sake doesn't fit into the scheme and idea of being a Grey Warden.

The rest of the Order would eventually enter Ferelden and put down your half-baked revolution and then kill you for it.

I actually think siding with the carta has potential as a third option >.> they clearly had a lot of manpower and influence, even with the upper castes as is hinted at in the dwarven casteless origin. I'm not really upset that it wasn't offered as an option in the actual game, but I think at one point siding with Jarvia may have been tossed around as an idea. Too bad she's a bigger **** than Anora. At any rate, I found the entire decide-a-king-for-Orzammar thing tedious and extremely time consuming (I mean, a straight up rebellion of the casteless MIGHT take less time than running around the Deep Roads looking for a possibly-dead paragon) ... so I will concede that yes, perhaps there could have been some 'darker' options, but I think as a whole DA did a pretty good job of offering non-black-and-white decisions.

[Original182]

doubledeviant wrote...
@Original182:  I'm not going to justify your comments with a proper response until you clarify your meaning...  What does America have to do with this?

My point is to point out the absurdity of your thread. I noticed that everything from the thread title to it's contents reek of arrogance and ignorance, which I'm sure you did on purpose just to provoke a debate, and wasn't really intended to be malicious. So I used a real-life example that hits home, your country.

There are a few parallels between Ferelden and the US. Instead of a corrupt nobility, you have politicians who talk a lot and do nothing. Instead of dwarves and elves, you have various discrimination against minorities. Instead of the Chantry, you have the church.

Then using the few problems in Ferelden, you then use the fool notion that it is better to let the darkspawn tear down the entire country because it isn't perfect. You say you would not sacrifice yourself to save Ferelden even if you had the power to do so.

So imagine if your soldiers think it's not worth dying in Afghanistan because the US has similar problems, and maybe they should just walk away and move to another country, and let the Al Qaeda destroy the US. Would YOU like that to happen? Of course not. Using this example, maybe then you can answer your own question.

What nonsense! In the end, it's still YOUR country, and there are many things worth fighting for. It's not perfect, but there are good things in Ferelden. To say that it's better to let the darkspawn destroy Ferelden simply because of a few problems it has is absurd. Maybe police should stop protecting civilians because african americans are are being discriminated, maybe firefighters should stop risking their lives to save people from fires because they don't like some religious organisations.

Why do you want to punish the innocent people of Ferelden for what some of them do?

I don't know why I'm even trying to explain the most basic of things. This thread topic shouldn't even exist. You don't see 100 news headlines on TV where soldiers ask "Why do we die for ungrateful people in the US?" Because it is a foolish thing to even contemplate. They are there because their loved ones and country are worth dying for.

Modifié par Original182, 19 décembre 2009 - 04:56 .

[eschilde]

There are a few parallels between Ferelden and the US. Instead of a corrupt nobility, you have politicians who talk a lot and do nothing.

There are other kinds?

Edit: Question. If Godwin's law is an increasing likelihood of a ****/Hitler reference in relation to the length of an internet discussion, what's the law for a terrorist reference? ^^

Second edit: Huh. I didn't know that word was banned. It starts with an n and ends in an i! Ten points for guessing right!

Modifié par eschilde, 19 décembre 2009 - 04:57 .

[tausra]

I'm not saying that siding with the Carta is a bad option, but all Deviant is talking about is tearing down every institution. From the Chantry to the Dwarves, Elves and everywhere in between. For no reason other than they have flaws.

[Squiggles1334]

Doubledeviant would rather waste time, energy, resources, and lives fighting a civil war for his own pet ideologies while completely ignoring the Blight tearing all of Fereldan apart?

Hmm, sounds strangely familiar.

[doubledeviant]

tausra wrote...

I'm not saying that siding with the Carta is a bad option, but all Deviant is talking about is tearing down every institution. From the Chantry to the Dwarves, Elves and everywhere in between. For no reason other than they have flaws.

Your ONLY option in Dragon Age is to accept your "duty" and risk life and limb to stop the Blight.  You can be a thug along the way, and you can sacrifice your principles and your "friends" to win, but in essence the only real choice is made for you.  I want some options.  Original182 is right about one thing; the thread was intended to provoke debate.  I'm not necessarily arguing *my* personal beliefs but a certain character that I might like to have played.  Showing how, right or wrong, the whole situation could be viewed differently.

Think Jacen Solo from the SW expanded universe.

I have to go atm, but I'm interested enough in what's been said in the last several posts that I'll be back when my duties (work...  ug... lol) permit.

Modifié par doubledeviant, 19 décembre 2009 - 05:47 .

[Saurel]

doubledeviant wrote...

Bhatair wrote...

You're a Grey Warden.
It's what they do.

I wanted to join Ser Jory and escape Duncan and the Grey Wardens, so that doesn't function as motivation.

I have to agree with you. If there is one thing I hate about the game its the 'YOU ARE A GREY WARDEN" (insert Manson or Heroic fantasy music depending on audience you are trying to appeal to) hammered into your head over and over and over and over and over.........and over again.

Modifié par Saurel, 19 décembre 2009 - 05:50 .

[tausra]

Well it isn't a sandbox game and it was never advertised as one. You bought the game knowing full well you will be playing a Grey Warden, end of story. If you want to be everything and anything sign up for an empty Bethesda game, where only the Mod community makes it playable.