207 réponses à ce sujet

[Saurel]

doubledeviant wrote...
 You can be a thug along the way, and you can sacrifice your principles and your "friends" to win, but in essence the only real choice is made for you..

Recruiting grey wardens and or meeting more along the way would have been nice...and not that far fetched. Considering Riordan's appearance and the fact you can make Loghain a warden.

And if you saved the Circle, you would think they might have been willing to help you with the concotion.

I'm sure after you basically save/help the dwarves, dalish, templars/mages, redcliffe. You would be able to at least find a few noble people willing to help.

Modifié par Saurel, 19 décembre 2009 - 06:03 .

[Rostas7]

You know what? Ferelden smells like wet dogs.

[phordicus]

the game never gave me a reason to give a ****. more than anything else i would have to liked to have waited until the entire ruling class had been killed in denerim and then fought the archdemon afterwards. wtf was the point of saving them?

[Squiggles1334]

Wow another steps in to join the ranks of the Prioritize Personal Politics Above Blight crew?



Must be more on these boards in hiding. Come on, stand up and be counted!

[Wompoo]

As far as I am concerned Wardens = fail as heroes. I also agree that humanity in this game deserves death and Duncan got what he deserved. The Dwarfs have been at war with the Dark Spawn for hundreds of years and no one came to their aid, and yet they are expected to drop their bundles and help one of the most pathetic race around, man. Wardens lie, manipulate, murder and in the end poison thousands in the name of sacrifice... there zealots and only worthy of contempt.

[doubledeviant]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

Wow another steps in to join the ranks of the Prioritize Personal Politics Above Blight crew?

Must be more on these boards in hiding. Come on, stand up and be counted!

I'm at work, so I don't have time for a long or detailed reply (and may not until Sunday), but you're begging for a response, and I'm itching to give one, so here's a bit to chew on:

Say that you're a mage in Ferelden.  You're a good person, or at least try to be one.  All your life, you've been held prisoner by a hostile, hypocritical church and treated like scum.  You know that the rest of the world fares little better.  Someone walks up to you and says, "Tag, you're it!  You get to die to preserve all this."  Are you going to immediately reply, "Sir, yes sir!"  Probably not.  You might even ask, "Is it worth it?" or "Can I somehow use the Blight to change this?"  You as a gamer can trivialize the choice because it's not being asked of you in RL.

In Dragon Age, you either play the white knight or play Duncan (and by Duncan I mean evil, but too fanatical/stupid to realize it).  Anyway, that's all that I have time for atm.  Might get in a bit on next break, but we're busy tonight.

Modifié par doubledeviant, 19 décembre 2009 - 09:38 .

[FedericoV]

I agree with the OP.

The point is that the joining is forced on you, no matter the origin. You have to join the GW to continue the game. You have no choiche. You become a GW to save your ass at the end.

Then, you could roleplay the noble Grey Warden who saves Ferelden but it seems a little forced and naive no matter what since you do not have the time to properly become a warden and to appreciate the positive points of the organization. You had not the chance to understand properly what the GW really are.

Then all you see in Ferelden and beyond are corruption, egoism, power struggles and blindness toward the upcoming menace (at least, untill the Landsmeet).

I am playing my second playthorugh as a dalish elf and honestly I could not see the point of the whole "sacrifice you and/or your friends to save ferelden" theme from his point of view. I want to try the sacrifice ending but it's really out of charachter if not for some ancient alliance between the elves and the grey wardens.

The point is that there is no reason to refuse Morrigain's offer. Like it or not, without her charachter and her proposal the whole DA:O's story would have became really weaker. I don't know who had the idea about the dark ritual, but he/she is a genious, since that moment changes the whole story and everything become more believable and acceptable (even the sacrifice choice).

Modifié par FedericoV, 19 décembre 2009 - 10:25 .

[Darrian79]

doubledeviant wrote... Someone walks up to you and says, "Tag, you're it!  You get to die to preserve all this."  Are you going to immediately reply, "Sir, yes sir!"  Probably not.  You might even ask, "Is it worth it?"

Being invited to join the grey wardens is an offer you can't refuse--Duncan is skilled at filleting warden recruits who change their minds. And if my city elf didn't fight to stop the Darkspawn that would've meant the end of him, his father, his cousin, his alienage, and his lover--simple motivations. Given the choice, he decided to be a hero rather than a martyr, but if there were no other choice, he would've surely died to save his family.

Modifié par Darrian79, 19 décembre 2009 - 10:31 .

[Smitridel]

What amazes me about the morality throughout the game is the hint behind the very name of the "Grey" Wardens.
So, from that grey point of view and given the fact that this is a dark world filled with deception and all the goodies that led to the Blight in the first place, I really can't see what is the purpose of having a sacrifice option at all.

So, unless you're playing a shiny Templar-like..erm Grey Warden? It doesn't fit.

It is made clear from the start of the game that the Grey Warden's have a single objective and that's all - they belong in the neutral side of people in regard to such radical action such as sacrificing themselves.
I'm actually thrilled about the fact that this is an adult world (in comparison to many fantasy worlds that good and evil are easily distinguished) and everything is blend in.
It's morally...realistic for Andraste's sake!

So what would actually make one to sacrifice themselves for this specific world (thus maintaining the social systems which are already corrupted and/or broken)?

[Dzikv]

Bhatair wrote...

You're a Grey Warden.
It's what they do.

In most cases you were more or less FORCED to be a grey warden. Short lifespan is a sacrefice in itself... Its mostly "You loose everything , now you must scarefice yourself too." Screw you world! Not going to happen...

I am really surprised through the game that people expect you to do everything to "save" fereldan... The game expects you to do that... And i myself can't imagine a character stupid enouh to take up such a task after the whole Origins and ostergard behind them...Well maybe Alister... But everyone with a bit of common sense would run towards Orlais or something...

Smitridel wrote...

What amazes me about the morality throughout the game is the hint behind the very name of the "Grey" Wardens.
So, from that grey
point of view and given the fact that this is a dark world filled with
deception and all the goodies that led to the Blight in the first
place, I really can't see what is the purpose of having a sacrifice
option at all.

So, unless you're playing a shiny Templar-like..erm Grey Warden? It doesn't fit.

It
is made clear from the start of the game that the Grey Warden's have a
single objective and that's all - they belong in the neutral side of
people in regard to such radical action such as sacrificing themselves.

I'm actually thrilled about the fact that this is an adult world
(in comparison to many fantasy worlds that good and evil are easily
distinguished) and everything is blend in.
It's morally...realistic for Andraste's sake!

So
what would actually make one to sacrifice themselves for this specific
world (thus maintaining the social systems which are already corrupted
and/or broken)?

I myself found it quite interesting... Especially when you take a closer look a duncan you can see that the Wardens singular goal should be to stop the blight at ALL costs. If Loghain wouldn't throw the blame at the wardens for Ostegard it would be obviously the best choice to side with him...

The wardens keep quiestline shows you a totaly different story tho... And it makes me wonder how do the wardens work? There isn't a clear ranking system shown in game. Seniority maybe? We know the wardens take criminals and all sort of people in too... How do they keep "order" in their ranks? How can they even expect that people after the innitiation won't just run away...Do they guard them?

Becoming a grey warden is a death sentence either way... But people want to live even when their lifespan is shortened... Bah! They want to live even more when they get to know that... What keeps them in line?

I don't blame Loghain for doubting the wardens tho... I mean... They are so vague! And people tend to belive everyone it seems who says he is a grey warden... How do they know that? O.o

I wish they made grey wardens more like the Templars... or The Witchers... I mean you can tell if someone is a Witcher.. And the templars are clearly an ORDER of sort. Grey Wardens are to vague for my taste...

Modifié par Dzikv, 19 décembre 2009 - 11:39 .

[Smitridel]

Ha! Now that's an interesting comparison.

In fact the whole "Curse-Grey Warden" thingie, actually reminded me of the Witcher's story.



And in that regard, the Grey Wardens are a shady bunch of guys and gals, trying to end a Blight, through any means (ethically right or not) necessary.

[Lotion Soronarr]

doubledeviant wrote...
Say that you're a mage in Ferelden.  You're a good person, or at least try to be one.  All your life, you've been held prisoner by a hostile, hypocritical church and treated like scum.

ERm...what?

[EricHVela]

My understanding of a possible epliogue is that:
Bhelen lowers the enforcement for the caste system (so he can marry a casteless IIRC from the notes and stuff my character found scattered around). Not so bad. He forces the Dwarven nobility and existing castes to accept it against their wishes, votes or no. Not so good. Up to you to decide if things are better or worse there. By keeping the anvil safe, Bhelen is able to recover several Thaigs.

Human nobility turns itself around if Alistair is king (with or without Anora). He can also change the living conditions and social standing of the City Elves. He also gives the Dalish Elves new lands. With Lanaya as the Dalish Elder, she manages to keep peace even with Human Commoner aggression in the new lands (which means you freed the werewolves, too).

Redcliffe prospers if you didn't abandon them.

The Circle rebuilds with fewer Chantry restrictions if you saved them. (After all, it was the struggle with the Chantry that inspired Uldred to do what he did.)

The Bannorn are free from Loghain's censure. Howe is killed, releasing his subjects from his abuse.

But if you sacrifice nothing: Dalish die, Redcliffe falls, Orzammar loses its king again, the nobility continue their power squabbling, the city elves remain destitute, the casteless remain beneath society, the Circle is recreated and watched even more carefully, etc.

Gotta put some sweat into it in order to make it something worth saving. Otherwise, you already said "screw this world" long before the final sacrifice needed to be made, and that's your missed opportunity.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 19 décembre 2009 - 02:01 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Sorry but this is bugging me now, due to some of the recent responses, I seriously have to ask if any of you read previews, saw the trailers or actually read anything about the game before it came out and you bought it.



All the lead up to the game release stated that your character IS a Grey Warden. Sure you have your origins to begin with, but that's just a prologue.



If you have issues with your character being stuck with being a Grey Warden, why did you buy the game?

[tausra]

Thank you Ulrich! ((Or is it William? hehe)) I said that a page or two back but got ignored xD

[andybuiadh]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Sorry but this is bugging me now, due to some of the recent responses, I seriously have to ask if any of you read previews, saw the trailers or actually read anything about the game before it came out and you bought it.

All the lead up to the game release stated that your character IS a Grey Warden. Sure you have your origins to begin with, but that's just a prologue.

If you have issues with your character being stuck with being a Grey Warden, why did you buy the game?

tausra wrote...

Thank you Ulrich! ((Or is it William? hehe)) I said that a page or two back but got ignored xD

I've been avoiding this thread for that very reason. I decided not to attempt to dissuade the opinions of trolls, however.

[Squiggles1334]

Well crap, a fire just started in my house from a faulty electrical socket and it's quickly spreading. This sucks. I am the one with the fire extinguisher, but then again, you know what? These walls have some really ugly-ass wallpaper that's bothered me for years, and the heat from the fire really does a good job of burning it off.
Logical conclusion: Use fire as interior decorative opportunity?

Modifié par Squiggles1334, 19 décembre 2009 - 02:29 .

[Smitridel]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Sorry but this is bugging me now, due to some of the recent responses, I seriously have to ask if any of you read previews, saw the trailers or actually read anything about the game before it came out and you bought it.

All the lead up to the game release stated that your character IS a Grey Warden. Sure you have your origins to begin with, but that's just a prologue.

If you have issues with your character being stuck with being a Grey Warden, why did you buy the game?

Excuse me but being a Grey Warden does not necesserily imply that you are also a sucker for what's decided for you.

If that's the case, you wouldn't be playing an RPG with lots of options on character differentiation but instead you would be following a linear scenario wherein being a Grey Warden is equal to yourself being sacrificed for the greater "good".

All in all, gamewise you can be whatever kind of GW you like. It's the morality of your actions that define your character and not your predefined..um..class (?). In fact there are many moments in the game, where you are given the choise to act as a Grey Warden or as your own "origin" character...

Modifié par Smitridel, 19 décembre 2009 - 02:55 .

[ZaroktheImmortal]

kevinwastaken wrote...

What will the darkspawn do when they have exterminated all life? Celebrate? Eat each other? Build a utopia?

Fanfic anyone!?

They will make cookies. Because everyone knows the Dark Side must have cookies.

[doubledeviant]

Short of time again, but here's my offering for today:

AntiChri5 wrote...

Evil is not Grey. Grey is ambiguos. I feel they delivered on that. Being evil can be fun (still delighted over my first KotOR ending all those years ago) but you do realize that the Archdemon does not have freinds right? It has slaves. You don't HAVE to sacrifice yourself. Allistair volunteers and you can basically say "sure have fun!"

The Archdemon isn't an impersonal force of nature.  It is not, for example, an asteroid which upon collision will render the planet uninhabitable.  If it were, I might be more willing to allow for some of the Grey Wardens' actions.  Rather, the Archdemon is a living god, and the Darkspawn are a hostile invading force.  It is war, not natural disaster.

The assent of the Archdemon will irrevocably change the world but not end existence itself.  The Wardens are living proof that the Taint is not irreconcilable with continued existence.  Your primary sources of knowledge of the Archdemon are the Chantry and the Grey Wardens (its sworn enemies and thus unreliable for an objective analysis).

From a RP perspective, perhaps I'd rather serve the Old Gods than a Maker who's turned away from the world (and indeed damned it himself with the Blights according to the Chantry).  Or perhaps I serve for power?

Even Cthulu has his cults.

AntiChri5 wrote...

So basically you just want to be Evil Emperor Of The Universe What Is Awesome?

Sounds great to me!  ;-)

Original182 wrote...

snip

Points taken, but in the case of America, we *do* have something that we consider worth fighting and dying for (you might disagree with our belief, of course, but that doesn't alter the motivating force of that belief, and motivation is the subject at hand).  DA:O fails to involve the character with the aspects of Ferelden worth the sacrifice asked.  Birth in a nation does not equate to automatic patriotism.

tausra wrote...

I'm not saying that siding with the Carta is a bad option, but all Deviant is talking about is tearing down every institution. From the Chantry to the Dwarves, Elves and everywhere in between. For no reason other than they have flaws.

No, I'm talking about a character that is more willing to tear down what he hates than die to save it based on faith that "it'll be better in the future".

tausra wrote...

Well it isn't a sandbox game and it was never advertised as one. You bought the game knowing full well you will be playing a Grey Warden, end of story. If you want to be everything and anything sign up for an empty Bethesda game, where only the Mod community makes it playable.

Baldur's Gate II wasn't a sandbox, was it?  Yet I could RP a wide variety of characters.

YOU know full well that prior to playing we had no idea of what choices we would and wouldn't be able to make as a Grey Warden as the story progressed.

Also:  You've not played any Bethesda games?  Or you might know that:
- Morrowind is a great game.
- Morrowind has a well-crafted "grey" story.
- Morrowind, Oblivion, and Fallout 3 share the same flaw stressed by this thread (must be the hero, can't join Dagoth Ur, can't join the Enclave, etc), making your statement nonsensical.

andybuiadh wrote...
I've been avoiding this thread for that very reason. I decided not to attempt to dissuade the opinions of trolls, however.

But the trolls are hungry!  And it's your DUTY to feed them, like them or not!

Brilliant logic:  You don't agree with me, so I must be troll.  :-P

Modifié par doubledeviant, 20 décembre 2009 - 09:23 .

[Krigwin]

I think the real problem is none of the origins really set you up to be this shining hero... which makes sense, since the Grey Wardens aren't actually heroes but rather gritty neutral mercenary-type soldiers who are biologically compelled in their mission. All of the origins set you up to either be forced into the Wardens, or use the conscription as an escape from some horrible fate, neither of which really set you up to be some kind of compassionate savior, and some of which actually set you up to pretty much hate everyone, especially humans.

This would be fine, given that you're allowed to be a dick in your quest and choose your own methods in your nigh-suicidal adventures, except it makes the idea of your character selflessly sacrificing themselves to save the corrupt land (which, in many cases, was ready to kill your character in the origin) totally unrealistic and baffling. There's really no reason whatsoever to refuse Morrigan's ritual or not let Alistair/Loghain perform the sacrifice instead of yourself, both of whom would view it as an honor, unless you're really straight-up RPing a lawful goodie character, and the self-sacrifice ending is just uncharacteristic for a majority of player characters.

If there was some kind of "good" origin where you were a knight in training that was offered to join the Wardens after proving your valor against some darkspawn in a minor raid or something, that would make a lot more sense. But it'd probably be a really boring origin to play.

[Lotion Soronarr]

doubledeviant wrote...
No, I'm talking about a character that is more willing to tear down what he hates than die to save it based on faith that "it'll be better in the future".

Fai enough.

Howeverm, if the Blight wins you KNOW it will NOT be better in the future. Regardless of how much you hate institution X, nothing is worse for the world than the Blight.

[Laurelinde]

Given that Ferelden/the world is so totally rubbish anyway, and all you have to look forward to is infertility, illness, war and death, why would you even want to keep living in the first place?  May as well take the quick out and squish the Archdemon, no?

[fantasypisces]

I have to agree, I found myself not really caring about anyone towards the end of my first playthrough. In the beginning I was always nice, and offered help to everyone, and always accepted when they asked. But towards the end, my dialogue became more like this "what's the catch?" "Don't look a giftwarden in the mouth", "let me guess, you want me to do something for you" "Apparently, that is what I do" "I'm shocked, really..." Because you become more like an errand-boy for people who don't always even deserve your help.

[Original182]

doubledeviant wrote...

Original182 wrote...

snip

Points taken, but in the case of America, we *do* have something that we consider worth fighting and dying for (you might disagree with our belief, of course, but that doesn't alter the motivating force of that belief, and motivation is the subject at hand).  DA:O fails to involve the character with the aspects of Ferelden worth the sacrifice asked.  Birth in a nation does not equate to automatic patriotism.

My post was in response to your original post, which unfortunately was only asking the question "Is Ferelden worth dying for?".
I was not implying America deserves to be destroyed, just that your notion that Ferelden should be wiped out because it isn't perfect, is the same as saying America should be wiped out because it isn't perfect. It's ridiculous. The roleplay you're looking for isn't realistic. Both countries surely have some things worth dying for.

Origins don't have characters who feel the need to sacrifice themselves for Ferelden?

Dalish Elves: Dying for your Dalish clans. Even if the "human scum" don't deserve to live, your clans do. The Blight doesn't discriminate like them. They kill all, even your clans.
City Elves: Dying for your Alienage and all city elves. Living with discrimination is still preferable to death.
Dwarf Commoner: Dying for your sister.
Dwarf Noble: Dying for Orzammar.
Mage: Dying for your fellow mages, tutors and First Enchanter. You cannot have NO feelings for them while learning magic from them.
Human Noble: You're a noble, you are a patriot by default. You die for Ferelden.

Again, the roleplay you're looking for probably isn't realistic. If you want to play a cold-hearted chaotic evil individual who has nothing to live for, doesn't care one bit about Ferelden, has no friends and has no one to sacrifice for, then you take the ritual. You live, then plot world domination with a weakened Ferelden.

When you play Dragon Age, you have to assume a reasonable amount of things, like you are a Grey Warden who will at least have something to die for. Otherwise, then as others have stated, Dragon Age really isn't your game.

It's almost like saying why am I pigeon-holed into saving Torchlight from the last boss? Why am I risking my life for a lousy town that I just arrived? Darn it's so unrealistic, I think I'm gonna go to the forums and write a strongly-worded thread to the writers to write up more options.

From your other posts, you are trying to ask many other questions, other than whether Ferelden is worth dying for. But unfortunately people will only read your first post and answer in the way that I do.

I suggest you create a new thread with clearer points of debate.

Modifié par Original182, 20 décembre 2009 - 06:17 .