227 réponses à ce sujet

[Wolfsbladex]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

FirroSeranel wrote...

And apparently Jay is also unable to see more than one logical layer deep, in that promoting more has to come from somewhere. Apparently he's also never noticed the score popping up for assists, objectives, and milestones. You might try paying attention to what it says on your screen, man. *smirks* On Bronze, it's entirely possible to outscore everyone else on an objective wave, and not kill a single thing.

Assists, Objectives, milestones, don't get you as much score as kills. And anyways, 75+ kills and all those medals are done by killing enemies. And if you're focused on killing enemies, you'll also nearly always have the 50+ assists.
So, high score = focused on killing enemies. That's all there is to it.

As for the Bronze thing, maybe. I don't play Bronze so you're probably right.

Also 'promoting has to come from somewhere'. Nope. Before BioWare changed the store, people could promote without even playing the class once, because of character cards galore. 
And since promoting is completely useless, as we have no incentive to do so (you can get 5000 EMS in SP without promoting), no rewards, nothing, lots of people stop promoting early. Statistically, I've met as much people who sucked with high N7s as with low N7s. 

Ergo, N7 is useless, and BioWare should make a skill points system. Like on BF3, but better.

"Assists, Objectives, milestones, don't get you as much score as kills. And anyways, 75+ kills and all those medals are done by killing enemies. And if you're focused on killing enemies, you'll also nearly always have the 50+ assists."
-Which means your team always benefited from you during the entire course of the game since being focused on enemies is 110% of the point. Main waves: Kill. Objective waves: Kill. Extraction wave: Kill. 

[FirroSeranel]

Alright, alright, I'll concede that N7 rating isn't very reliable.

Of course, I did that in my original post. But I still hold that it's reliable -enough-, that to kick a player out of Gold or Platinum for being in two-digits isn't elitism. It's intelligent. It happened to me when I was new, and I just blushed and thought, "Oh... yeah, they probably have a good point."

[FirroSeranel]

Hah, and yeah. Wolf is right. The point of this game, at the end of the day, is to kill enemies. So of COURSE score is mostly based on how well you killed enemies. Not coincidentally, so is my opinion of how helpful you were, 99% of the time. This isn't a hard concept...

The waves don't end until all the enemies are what?  ...KILLED!

So if you didn't help kill them...  you failed!

Modifié par FirroSeranel, 18 juillet 2012 - 09:56 .

[FirroSeranel]

Just goes to show, if you state the glaringly obvious, in a logically irrefutable way, someone on the internet will still argue with it, and feel smart while they do it.

[Dokteur Kill]

FirroSeranel wrote...

Alright, alright, I'll concede that N7 rating isn't very reliable.

Of course, I did that in my original post. But I still hold that it's reliable -enough-, that to kick a player out of Gold or Platinum for being in two-digits isn't elitism. It's intelligent.

Not necessarily. It's at best an indicator that you should take a second look (but I always do that anyway). I've seen players who've just not bothered to ever start characters in every class (so they're stuck below N7 120), but who have still played enough to get X-level rare weapons and are perfectly effective in gold matches.

If I see an Asari Adept with a Carnifex X in a gold match, I don't care what her N7 rating is.

[FirroSeranel]

DannyBFTW wrote...

N7 past 120 doesn't show skill, it just shows time playing and whether they've bothered to promote.

Also, if you play as a support character you don't get as many points as others it is simply a fact. You don't get points for restoring allies shield with the geth turret, you don't get points for reducing the damage they're taking when they are inside your biotic sphere, you don't get points for restoring there ammo from a supply pylon, you don't get points for soaking up damage with your shield as a Paladin.

You may say that you get points for doing the devices but you only get around 1000 for them. Your team mates who are off killing things only have to kill 3 or 4 minor enemies to get that much. You may also say that you get points from assists, but so does everyone else on the team.

If you are trying to get the highest score in the match playing support just isn't viable.

And yet, I've seen more than a few matches where a Geth Engineer was the top scorer, -while- plopping down their turrets and restoring shields.  They played the class well.  Period.  If you just plopped down turrets to restore shields, and scored less than half of the third-place player, you played the class less well.  Period.

And I've seen -dozens- of matches where an Asari Justicar was the top scorer.  That isn't even hard.  It's a very solid class, and while yes it -has- some support, that same biotic bubble can be used to set up -multiple- biotic detonations, with one power, and the -good- players know and use that zealously.  So again, if you're playing a Justicar, and scored dead last... you didn't do very well.

[FirroSeranel]

Dokteur Kill wrote...

If I see an Asari Adept with a Carnifex X in a gold match, I don't care what her N7 rating is.

If you see an Asari Adept with a Carnifex X in a gold match, who also has a respectable gear setup, with an N7 rating of under 120, please by all means grab a screenshot of their setup, and their final, respectable score.  The moment you do, is the moment I'll believe it.

[DannyBFTW]

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

"N7 past 120 doesn't show skill, it just shows time playing and whether they've bothered to promote."

think maybe the people that have been playing longer have  a better feel for the game?
 guns, enemy habits, level layouts....

the op is right and he was never trying to be rude about it.
 he presents fact.
he also readily admits there are exceptions.

If I'd played FBWGG for my entire time playing to easily level up and promote classes I wouldn't have that good a feel for the map layouts etc. but I would have very easily levelled up after all that time and got a high N7.

Time playing is mostly irrelevent, yes some players that have been playing longer do know how the guns work, how the enemies AI works, and how the maps are structured. So would anyone who's played bronze when they first started out playing. I knew the enemy spawns within my first week (same with enemy habits), whenever I get a new weapon I try it on a class I think it will work on and I give it a test run on silver or bronze so I know how it works and I can judge it (same when I get new characters) 

So yes time playing and N7 is irrelevent.

Also in order for there to be exceptions there must be a way it does work but I don't see any, as I stated in my last post, except for maybe using proxy mine to debuff enemies perhaps.

[Arppis]

If it was related to matches completed or something like that, I could see it being useful. But atm, it doesn't really indicate that much in terms of skills.

Even looking at guns is iffy, you can basicaly just buy everything up if you got the money.

What you need to do, is play a game with the player.

Modifié par Arppis, 18 juillet 2012 - 10:07 .

[Wolfsbladex]

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

"N7 past 120 doesn't show skill, it just shows time playing and whether they've bothered to promote."

think maybe the people that have been playing longer have  a better feel for the game?
 guns, enemy habits, level layouts....

the op is right and he was never trying to be rude about it.
 he presents fact.
he also readily admits there are exceptions.

That's exactly what he's saying. N7 120+ will show a player's experience spending *time* and *effort* in whatever they enjoy. 

"But any less than 120 means you haven't even bought enough gear packs to level your non-favored classes, let alone actually -tried- every class, which means, frankly, you don't have the gear or the experience to be really competitive on the higher difficulties."

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Wolfsbladex wrote...



"Assists, Objectives, milestones, don't get you as much score as kills. And anyways, 75+ kills and all those medals are done by killing enemies. And if you're focused on killing enemies, you'll also nearly always have the 50+ assists."
-Which means your team always benefited from you during the entire course of the game since being focused on enemies is 110% of the point. Main waves: Kill. Objective waves: Kill. Extraction wave: Kill. 

I never said that Score is useless. I said 'score means you killed more', and FirroSeranel talked about objectives, assists, milestones, and how in Bronze you can get a high score without killing a thing. I wasn't even arguing about how score means nothing. I never said that, because it's not true. 

As a matter of fact, I agree with him on the score issue.

Modifié par Jay_Hoxtatron, 18 juillet 2012 - 10:11 .

[Sabina261187]

As being a four digit N7 myself over the 3500, trying my BEST to prove peoples theories wrong all the time about their "Doesn't mean sh*t"...

I must agree with OP... Ofcourse there are people that stand out of a crowd as always, hell I saw it myself this weekend when my mates and I carried one through the reapers on gold, full extraction that had higher N7 than me, wich is pretty rare, and had crappier weapons than me...
As a lvl 1, even on a gold to lvl up on a farm, with nothing equiped I still score top..

Personally, I don't care as long as the enemy go down, and those I'm playing with is good teamplayers.. But peoples arguments about N7 showing nothing, I find invalid.. It shows experience at least.. And if you do not learn anything of playing that long and promoting 125 times.. Yeah.. You're just a ****** imho... And those minorities you'll find everywhere....

[FirroSeranel]

Time playing and N7 rating is irrelevant? Okay... show me one single player who even -knew- enough to farm FBWGG from their first time playing multiplayer, who also -cared- enough about N7 rating and nothing else to bother with that, who also had enough perseverance and downright stubbornness to do that for... oh... about 400 matches, each lasting about half an hour so... 200 hours of their life... -and- learned -absolutely- nothing about how to play the game (in which case, I posit that they would have been kicked from said team every time they laid there and did nothing for every wave, as even FBWGG takes -some- skill), and I'll show you a paradox. Which is (since at this point, I'm not assuming -any- working knowledge of -anything- on the part of my opposition) something that cannot exist.

Or, maybe, in fact almost certainly, I'll show you a forum poster who has a... shall we say... less than firm grasp on reality?

[GreyWardenNathan]

My rank is 150 yet i quite often wil finish top in gold or near the rest of the group. The only times i dont is when you just have the ex cerberus adepts and vanguards spamming smash at all the main entrances from behind a wall, and they can be any rank

[Gazz66666]

DannyBFTW wrote...

N7 past 120 doesn't show skill, it just shows time playing and whether they've bothered to promote.

Also, if you play as a support character you don't get as many points as others it is simply a fact. You don't get points for restoring allies shield with the geth turret, you don't get points for reducing the damage they're taking when they are inside your biotic sphere, you don't get points for restoring there ammo from a supply pylon, you don't get points for soaking up damage with your shield as a Paladin.

You may say that you get points for doing the devices but you only get around 1000 for them. Your team mates who are off killing things only have to kill 3 or 4 minor enemies to get that much. You may also say that you get points from assists, but so does everyone else on the team.

If you are trying to get the highest score in the match playing support just isn't viable.

In a game that's supposedly based on Co-Operation, "score" is arguably the most retarded addition to the game. Playing on Gold, I nearly always have the lowest score. No, I don't quite rack up kills like the rest of the team, who came packing assault rifles, in comparison to my Canifex VII.

What am I doing then? I'm playing a Salarian Engineer. And my Decoy is the reason those three Geth Primes and untold Pyros aren't raping the team. 

Modifié par Gazz66666, 18 juillet 2012 - 10:16 .

[DannyBFTW]

FirroSeranel wrote...

DannyBFTW wrote...

N7 past 120 doesn't show skill, it just shows time playing and whether they've bothered to promote.

Also, if you play as a support character you don't get as many points as others it is simply a fact. You don't get points for restoring allies shield with the geth turret, you don't get points for reducing the damage they're taking when they are inside your biotic sphere, you don't get points for restoring there ammo from a supply pylon, you don't get points for soaking up damage with your shield as a Paladin.

You may say that you get points for doing the devices but you only get around 1000 for them. Your team mates who are off killing things only have to kill 3 or 4 minor enemies to get that much. You may also say that you get points from assists, but so does everyone else on the team.

If you are trying to get the highest score in the match playing support just isn't viable.

And yet, I've seen more than a few matches where a Geth Engineer was the top scorer, -while- plopping down their turrets and restoring shields.  They played the class well.  Period.  If you just plopped down turrets to restore shields, and scored less than half of the third-place player, you played the class less well.  Period.

And I've seen -dozens- of matches where an Asari Justicar was the top scorer.  That isn't even hard.  It's a very solid class, and while yes it -has- some support, that same biotic bubble can be used to set up -multiple- biotic detonations, with one power, and the -good- players know and use that zealously.  So again, if you're playing a Justicar, and scored dead last... you didn't do very well.

Yes whilst this is all very good and maybe they are the top scorers, they're not top scorer because of their supportive role they are top scorers because they also ran around the map doing other things.
So by your view of how a supportive player works, if I spec my geth turret for full damge, flamethrower etc. then just play normally with the turret, throwing round corners, using it to cover me and kill enemies then I'm a good support player!
Also If I play my Justicar with a full offensive bubble and just get biotic explosions on my own using it and reave, I'm a good support player! 

See where I'm coming from here. You're not scoring well because you are supporting your team, you're scoring well because your killing enemies like anyone else. Just because I ocassionally heal an allies shields once and a while doesn't mean I'm a support player.

[Carnagedude504]

I'm at N7 rating 280-ish (I don't have the game in front of me so I don't really remember), and I easily make it to the top of the leaderboard in silver games using my Vorcha Soldier (bloodlust turns you into a freakin' tank with the right specs), but I don't usually go into a game with the mindset of "Oh hey, I gotta beat these other ****s because i'm a competitive jerk", I usually think of "Okay, two more games and I get a spectre pack" or "I wonder how this person will use this class". It's more or less a learning experience for me rather than a competition to see who does the best, and frankly, I think that anyone who uses score or N7 ranking as a judging tool of someone's skill level is kind of dumb. Sure, of course, if someone is lagging behind in the kills department, they aren't exactly the best on your team, but maybe it's because they're hanging back and helping with assists, or even just studying your strategy to see how to play classes.

That's how I got good at the game. That, and when I first got the game, after beating single player I jumped on multiplayer and played for 20+ hours trying to get a Turian, though I just ended up unlocking everything but a Turian.


*EDIT: Is it strange that i'm reading FirroSeranel's posts in a Batarian voice in my mind?

Modifié par Carnagedude504, 18 juillet 2012 - 10:18 .

[DannyBFTW]

Gazz66666 wrote...

DannyBFTW wrote...

N7 past 120 doesn't show skill, it just shows time playing and whether they've bothered to promote.

Also, if you play as a support character you don't get as many points as others it is simply a fact. You don't get points for restoring allies shield with the geth turret, you don't get points for reducing the damage they're taking when they are inside your biotic sphere, you don't get points for restoring there ammo from a supply pylon, you don't get points for soaking up damage with your shield as a Paladin.

You may say that you get points for doing the devices but you only get around 1000 for them. Your team mates who are off killing things only have to kill 3 or 4 minor enemies to get that much. You may also say that you get points from assists, but so does everyone else on the team.

If you are trying to get the highest score in the match playing support just isn't viable.

In a game that's supposedly based on Co-Operation, "score" is arguably the most retarded addition to the game. Playing on Gold, I nearly always have the lowest score. No, I don't quite rack up kills like the rest of the team, who came packing assault rifles, in comparison to my Canifex VII.

What am I doing then? I'm playing a Salarian Engineer. And my Decoy is the reason those three Geth Primes and untold Pyros aren't raping the team. 

I think you are missing the point of what I was saying. I'm argueing that score is pointless and doesn't show if you are good at the game or helping the team. I'm on your side.

[Wolfsbladex]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

Wolfsbladex wrote...



"Assists, Objectives, milestones, don't get you as much score as kills. And anyways, 75+ kills and all those medals are done by killing enemies. And if you're focused on killing enemies, you'll also nearly always have the 50+ assists."
-Which means your team always benefited from you during the entire course of the game since being focused on enemies is 110% of the point. Main waves: Kill. Objective waves: Kill. Extraction wave: Kill. 

I never said that Score is useless. I said 'score means you killed more', and FirroSeranel talked about objectives, assists, milestones, and how in Bronze you can get a high score without killing a thing. I wasn't even arguing about how score means nothing. I never said that, because it's not true. 

As a matter of fact, I agree with him on the score issue.

Where the hell in my post did I state you said score was useless o.O

[ElementL09]

Too me N7 means experience. The more you promote characters/the higher your N7 rating is means that your trying out new builds on multiple difficulties. While you can have an N7 level of 120 and not promote but respec individual classes, the overall point being is that N7 level does show how experienced a player is since they took the time and effort to re-level up there class.

With the N7 level, its hardly enough info to go on on how good an individual person my be or how well they'll perform. What really matters is class, weapons, abilites, and equipment - usually on higher difficulties like Gold and Platinum. N7 level is just a quick way to generalize the player which you'll be playing with, besides looking at their setup.

My N7 level is like 700+ and I'm just gradually moving into Gold because Bronze and Silver is getting easy and I need a better payout in credits for the amount of time I'm playing. Around 20 minutes in a silver game will net me 30,000K, but for under 30 minutes on Gold I'll get 70,000K. What I'm trying to say is I'm not the best player, but with my N7 level and an inspection of my class setup they'll get the general gist of what type of player I am.

[Gazz66666]

DannyBFTW wrote...

Gazz66666 wrote...

DannyBFTW wrote...

N7 past 120 doesn't show skill, it just shows time playing and whether they've bothered to promote.

Also, if you play as a support character you don't get as many points as others it is simply a fact. You don't get points for restoring allies shield with the geth turret, you don't get points for reducing the damage they're taking when they are inside your biotic sphere, you don't get points for restoring there ammo from a supply pylon, you don't get points for soaking up damage with your shield as a Paladin.

You may say that you get points for doing the devices but you only get around 1000 for them. Your team mates who are off killing things only have to kill 3 or 4 minor enemies to get that much. You may also say that you get points from assists, but so does everyone else on the team.

If you are trying to get the highest score in the match playing support just isn't viable.

In a game that's supposedly based on Co-Operation, "score" is arguably the most retarded addition to the game. Playing on Gold, I nearly always have the lowest score. No, I don't quite rack up kills like the rest of the team, who came packing assault rifles, in comparison to my Canifex VII.

What am I doing then? I'm playing a Salarian Engineer. And my Decoy is the reason those three Geth Primes and untold Pyros aren't raping the team. 

I think you are missing the point of what I was saying. I'm argueing that score is pointless and doesn't show if you are good at the game or helping the team. I'm on your side.

I know, I know. I agree, I don't find score a big indicator in terms of teamwork either. The whole "Top of the leaderboard hurhur" culture is stupid in a game like this. For something like COD or Halo, it makes some sense. But not here. The only caveat I have to the whole "N7 rating doesn't matter" is that i'm wary of anyone pre N7 120 joining a Gold ranked game.

N7 441 here, by the way.

Modifié par Gazz66666, 18 juillet 2012 - 10:23 .

[Carnagedude504]

ElementL09 wrote...

Too me N7 means experience. The more you promote characters/the higher your N7 rating is means that your trying out new builds on multiple difficulties. While you can have an N7 level of 120 and not promote but respec individual classes, the overall point being is that N7 level does show how experienced a player is since they took the time and effort to re-level up there class.

Or, you know, people could just use respec tokens and keep their N7 class level the same. I've seen it before, someone had an N7 rating of 120 and in three different games he used the same character but with different specs each match.

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

FirroSeranel wrote...

Time playing and N7 rating is irrelevant? Okay... show me one single player who even -knew- enough to farm FBWGG from their first time playing multiplayer, who also -cared- enough about N7 rating and nothing else to bother with that, who also had enough perseverance and downright stubbornness to do that for... oh... about 400 matches, each lasting about half an hour so... 200 hours of their life... -and- learned -absolutely- nothing about how to play the game (in which case, I posit that they would have been kicked from said team every time they laid there and did nothing for every wave, as even FBWGG takes -some- skill), and I'll show you a paradox. Which is (since at this point, I'm not assuming -any- working knowledge of -anything- on the part of my opposition) something that cannot exist.

Or, maybe, in fact almost certainly, I'll show you a forum poster who has a... shall we say... less than firm grasp on reality?

And where did I even say that. I said N7 means you promoted more. Nothing more, nothing less. I didn't even talk about skill.

I said that plenty of people could farm FBWGG and have high N7. Does it mean that all high N7 don't have skill? No. Does it mean all high N7 have skill? No.

Basically, you're trying to drag me into a useless argument. Have a nice day 

[MaxBoss]

I've had the privilege of playing with Jay. His N7 is 120. Did 10+ runs on Glacier/Gold like a breeze. I had a hard time finding stuff to kill. So, in my opinion, N7 rating, once in the triple digits, is irrelevant.

[FirroSeranel]

Gazz66666 wrote...

In a game that's supposedly based on Co-Operation, "score" is arguably the most retarded addition to the game. Playing on Gold, I nearly always have the lowest score. No, I don't quite rack up kills like the rest of the team, who came packing assault rifles, in comparison to my Canifex VII.

What am I doing then? I'm playing a Salarian Engineer. And my Decoy is the reason those three Geth Primes and untold Pyros aren't raping the team. 

First, I admit, your Decoy was helpful, absolutely.  But I'll bet while you did score the lowest, you weren't below my threshhold of less than 50% of the third-place player.  If you were... then frankly, I'd rather have a Salarian Engineer who uses decoy -and- shoots his gun occasionally.  Since that's -another- class I've seen top the charts without much difficulty.

Second... while like you, I did think at first that score wasn't a very smart thing to add to a co-op game (for about one and a half seconds until I thought it through), I then realized that it serves several purposes.  For one, it lets me gauge my own performance.  This helps me know whether I'm really good enough to be playing on a given difficulty.  That's both generally, and on a given day, 'cause believe me, some days I just have a crap day, and Gold is not the correct difficulty for -me-!    For another, from a meta-game perspective, like it or not, it is a very motivating thing for nearly all humans.  Not just in games, in real life, too.  Want your salespeople to improve their performance?  Put up a scoreboard in the office.  It's like magic.  From Bioware's perspective, motivation to improve equates to longer spent in a game before burnout, which equates to more word-of-mouth advertising, more loyal customer base, more money spent on DLC's, and... generally more money.  Since they are in fact a for-profit organization, that's a very important goal for them.