164 réponses à ce sujet

[tausra]

Tirigon wrote...

Knights were liked in France too, nevertheless that one King (forgot his name) could wipe the templars out when he accused them of treachery. They were the most  powerful and richest order then.
And to the "People love the chantry" stuff: not all do. Like in every society, there are different sorts of people. And like in every society the majority will follow the dictator.

Knights=/=Templars.  The Templars you are referring to were disliked by the Pope, which is how the French were able to slaughter them with no backlash.  Ferelden is arguably pre-sermon of worms, which means the Chantry is the only religious game in town.  Even if people don't activly worship they know nothing, religiously speaking,  outside of worship of Andraste and the Maker.  Also medieval world was prone to dictators rising up and dieing in hunting accidents or poison.

[artifact]

Vicious wrote...

PatT2 wrote...
...
I absolutely agree, until I read that it's impossible to have a child with Alistair due to both being Grey Wardens. I haven't really considered the implications of such, nor what if any claim your elder brother's children may have. Feel free to offer your perspective.

Have child with a surrogate mother. Well, it's done these days, anyway. Artificial insemination? I dunno. My pc's brother (cousland) can still have kids and had better hurry.

OR... do what I did and keep an elf on the side (who does love a royal scandal) and secure the bloodline with a taint-free sire who can guard your sleeping back, and that of the heirs,  from any future Crows.

[Original182]

Daithin wrote...
So why do so many, or you the reader in particular think the only happy ending for the story is putting you or Alistair, or you and Alistair on the Throne?

Alistair is supposedly the last remaining heir of the Theirin bloodline. That bloodline symbolizes Ferelden more than anything else. Ferelden initially did not exist, but was just a group of warring clans. It was Calenhad Theirin who united all of them into Ferelden.

In recent memory, it was Maric, of the Theirin bloodline who repelled the Orlesian forces in Ferelden and regained Ferelden independence.

In my first game, I gave the throne to Anora and not Alistair because I just listened to them and didn't realize the significance of the Theirin bloodline. Now that I realize how important the Theirin bloodline is, I'm gonna make Alistair take the throne whether he likes it or not. The Theirin bloodline must continue for Ferelden.

As for why people want to be king, well it is a reflection of people who want to gain higher social status. Being king is much like owning the most expensive car. Why buy such an expensive car, when an average car can get you from point A to B just as well? Why buy expensive stylish clothes, when average clothes cover you just as well?

And nothing is a much higher social status than being King/Queen in Ferelden.

[Sialater]

I don't want to be Queen in any play through. First, though, we ran off into the sunset together and Anora slaughtered the rioting elves in the Alienage.



No more Queendom for her.



I was an idealistic elf mage who'd been an outcast all her life, though good at what she did. I thought that staying Grey Wardens was more important for the Thierin bloodline, being the true "saviors of Ferelden." Hardened Alistair gets the throne, now. Whether I'm queen or chancellor (ie, the piece on the side), doesn't matter to me. She doesn't look after all her subjects, just the ones she likes.

[Kohaku]

I did it once for curiosity's sake and will not do it again. Anora can burn down the castle for all I care. There's no point in forcing someone to do something they don't want to.

[Recidiva]

Depending on the character's sake, and which roleplay I'm doing, there's several different motivations to gain different endings.



The fact is that Anora is a horrific queen option if you're an elf or if you have a conscience. I find I am doing an "evil" thing if she's ever put in charge alone. Can't see it any other way.



The King/Queen thing is only available in the Noble roleplay, and that can vary in motive from wanting to be the best ruler because both Anora and Alistair are horrid options.



If I play "Good" then I have to have the kingdom's needs at heart. Regardless of what Alistair wants, it's possible for me to despise the Grey Wardens for being non-consent poisoners. I have very little love for them. It's very difficult for me to want to stay with the Grey Wardens as I think they need to be razed to the ground and redone in another way. Also, it can wait as the next Blight is probably a few years off and Ferelden needs leadership NOW. But the best "good" ending I can contrive is to sacrifice myself and ignore that both Alistair and Anora are dumbasses and believe that they're going to be good together. Which makes about as much sense as saying Bhelen is a good ruler. I don't buy it, but I didn't write it.



King/Queenship gives you the ability to rebuild Ferelden as you're intimately aware of all the issues that need to be addressed. Giving Alistair what he wants becomes less of interest after several playthroughs and realizing that what he wants and what he can do is reliant entirely upon what you want and what you do.



In order to get a decent "good" ending, I can really only go a few ways, and Noble Queen/Kingship isn't one of them. I only was queen once and then that was oogie because taking Morrigan's deal is nasty. So really I'm not doing it again and it wasn't satisfying. In order to do it you have to betray pretty much anything you might have done as a good character, so ew.



Going off with the Grey Wardens just results in my feeling of Mr. Incredible in "The Incredibles" - "No matter how many times you save the world, it always manages to get back in jeopardy again. Sometimes I just want it to stay saved! You know, for a little bit? I feel like the maid; I just cleaned up this mess! Can we keep it clean for... for ten minutes!"



If I'm evil, I don't care. Anora can have it. And Alistair can be executed or a drunk for all I care. Actually I consider the most evil thing to do is make Anora queen and have Alistair kill himself for me because he's in love with my manipulative self.



Ideally a "good" PC makes a better ruler than either Alistair or Anora, but the game doesn't allow for it, so basically I write it off as one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" choices.

[Taleroth]

Recidiva wrote...

Depending on the character's sake, and which roleplay I'm doing, there's several different motivations to gain different endings.

The fact is that Anora is a horrific queen option if you're an elf or if you have a conscience. I find I am doing an "evil" thing if she's ever put in charge alone. Can't see it any other way.

You can't know she's going to do anything to Elves.  You have no cause to suspect it, as far as I can tell.  Can you label the decision morally when it's metagame?

[Asylumer]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I laugh at you who choose to be king because of Anora - she didn't put out for 5 years with Cailan, you think you'll fare better?

Coercion 4 baby

Anora: "Oh you're just so.... cunning" *smitten*

EDIT: Come to think of it, maybe that's why Cailen was so unlucky with her.

Modifié par Asylumer, 18 décembre 2009 - 04:59 .

[Sialater]

Actually, yes, you do, if you play an elf. She talked down to my elf mage and was generally unimpressed by my competence, despite allowing myself to get captured so she wouldn't be executed. When you tell her of the slavery, her response equates to, "It's only elves."

[Taleroth]

Sialater wrote...

Actually, yes, you do, if you play an elf. She talked down to my elf mage and was generally unimpressed by my competence, despite allowing myself to get captured so she wouldn't be executed.

That's true of any of them as I've seen.  I've played 2 elves and a human, she never seemed impressed.
 

When you tell her of the slavery, her response equates to, "It's only elves."

That seems a point, though.

[darkshadow136]

As far as human noble I really don't care I've been through the game 7 times, and I still have not chosen to become king. But as far as the Dwarf Noble origin you should be able to become king I think Bioware messed up on that one.

[Sialater]

And Arl Eamon/Alistair/and especially Zevran are outraged, so it's not a Ferelden-wide attitude. So yeah, she can go rot in the Tower. My elf mage is just disappointed she was apparently not beheaded. (Petty? Me? Noooooo.)

[Taleroth]

Sialater wrote...

My elf mage is just disappointed she was apparently not beheaded. (Petty? Me? Noooooo.)

I think you need a hug.

Someone, hug this internet person.

[Herr Uhl]

Sialater wrote...

And Arl Eamon/Alistair/and especially Zevran are outraged, so it's not a Ferelden-wide attitude. So yeah, she can go rot in the Tower. My elf mage is just disappointed she was apparently not beheaded. (Petty? Me? Noooooo.)

Zev is Antivan and an elf. He does not count.

[Daithin]

This is really interesting and somewhat freaky. Hearing all these different experiences.



Again its cool we all see these people so differently. For me Anora wasn't evil at all. I did read something about her "coming down hard on the elven rioters." but that didn't translate to slaughtering them. At least not in my play threw. From every indication. Ferelden had a very civilized future where Anora opened trade agreements, refilled the coffers of the kingdom, gave financial help to those who produced steady crops every year and even started Talk of opening up a University, and more importantly gave the Wardens land to rebuild.



For me she seemed to be a very good ruler. And I will continue to put her on the throne time and time again. Each time she proves to me she deserved it.



To Original182



I heard that as well, but to me that didn't hold water. Ruling a country has little to do with blood. Maric might have been a decent king, Cailen might have even been one if he hadn't been killed. But Alistair for me didn't feel anything but disdain for his royal blood.



At least that's how I saw it. But my actions are colored by the fact that Alistair told me "Duncan was the only one that cared about what I wanted." Those words ended up becoming part of how I would always treat him. For me that was being a true friend to him.



I am ultimately selfish maybe. I rather do whats best for my friends then what is best for everyone else.

[Agni108]

darkshadow136 wrote...

As far as human noble I really don't care I've been through the game 7 times, and I still have not chosen to become king. But as far as the Dwarf Noble origin you should be able to become king I think Bioware messed up on that one.

Apparently, the epilogue hints that when Harrowmount dies, you (male dwarf noble) will be the most likely candidate to succeed him--and in addition, it states that you have heirs (offspring). So it looks like the Aeducan line will eventually be restored. That is sufficient, I think.

As a human noble, I once opted to marry Anora and become king. But when Alistair left (betrayed) to become a drunk, Anora treated me like her inconsequential puppy dog, and Leliana was left in the cold, I immediately restored a previous save and gave the throne to Alistair and Anora--which results in a "Golden Age" for Ferelden. Apparently, they balance each other out. I myself then chose the hero's death of sacrifice. Leliana then got to write a famous balad about her love affair with me....which reminded me of her story about the stars in the sky and the river of tears.

However, in spite of the potential Golden Age for Ferelden, I felt sorry for my friend Alistair, when in the epilogue presenting their marriage, Anora refuses to hold his hand while walking to the marriage altar. He was a virgin before the marriage, and probably will not have happy conjugal relations with his admittedly beautiful, but frigid and manipulative, wife. Poor Alistair. He has had bad relations with women (including his sister) for most of his life. As a result, he will probably turn gay, which is a latent tendency of his. Maybe he will find some solace with a male companion.

Of course, if you are playing a female PC you can bring out all of Alistair's deeply felt romantic tendencies. Its just too bad that those will never come to fruition for the poor guy if you play a male PC, unless you have a gay affair with him.

Modifié par Agni108, 18 décembre 2009 - 05:31 .

[Sialater]

Taleroth wrote...

Sialater wrote...

My elf mage is just disappointed she was apparently not beheaded. (Petty? Me? Noooooo.)

I think you need a hug.

Someone, hug this internet person.

Outsourcing hugs?  Nice. 


But then, I'll just go home and hug my husband.

[Prisoner24601]

Taleroth wrote...

Recidiva wrote...

Depending on the character's sake, and which roleplay I'm doing, there's several different motivations to gain different endings.

The fact is that Anora is a horrific queen option if you're an elf or if you have a conscience. I find I am doing an "evil" thing if she's ever put in charge alone. Can't see it any other way.

You can't know she's going to do anything to Elves.  You have no cause to suspect it, as far as I can tell.  Can you label the decision morally when it's metagame?

Yes, this.  Exactly.

Besides, it's not like the player knows the full context that her killing the elves is taken in, and from everything else the game tells you, she makes a pretty good ruler (starts a University, opens trade agreements, etc...).  I personally don't see her as evil.  I see her as ruthlessly pragmatic - which is something that I think a Queen would have to be in order to be effective in anyway.

Unless you harden and persuade him under a very specific set of circumstances, Alistair repetedly tells you that he does not want to take the throne.   From his personality in the game, I just don't buy that he'd make a competant King.  I guess the best possible outcome would be for Anora and Alistair to get married - their personalities and qualities seem like they'd balance each other out - and from what I've heard from the epilogue, that seems to be the case.

But Alistair has duties elsewhere.  There's only two (or one - depending on how you play it) Grey Wardens left in the kingdom.  It would take years to rebuild that order, and that's just as important, if not more important than being the King, since the wardens are the people that are the first line of defense against the darkspawn.

So I just don't buy the whole idea of the PC & Alistair being Queen and King as the best choice for the country.

[Daithin]

See Prisoner24601



I agree with you completely. I guess its been what I've been dogmatically talked about since I started the thread. To me rebuilding the Grey Wardens was ultimately more important then seeing Alistair as King. Or being King myself.



Again I've yet to see a line where it says Anora killed any elves. I read that she had to come down hard on them, but that does not have to mean killing them. That could mean a great many thing, harsher taxes, Smaller rations.



Those things might not be nice things to do to a people. But that is a far cry for slaughter.

[eschilde]

Huh? Anora seemed to like my human ladies (both mage and noble), she got all worried the one time I surrendered ("We have to save her!" "Them. You mean them, right? We need Alistair, too." "Yes, yes, Alistair too."), and was happy enough when I killed Cauthrien the previous few times.

As far as Anora being frigid goes.. I feel that she knows her duty as queen. Part of that is having babies. That would imply that Alistair would need to drop his pants at some point. There's certainly worse things than marrying him off to Anora. It's not like you're feeding him to the broodmother.

Unless you harden and persuade him under a very specific set of circumstances [...] I just don't buy the whole idea of the PC & Alistair being Queen and King as the best choice for the country.

Even if not, you may think your character deserves to be on the throne more than either Anora or Alistair. I mean, hell, you're solving political problems left and right already as a Warden, even if they aren't necessarily human problems. Or maybe you put Alistair on the throne because you know him well and you feel like you can trust him more than Anora (which is what I did my first playthrough, because I picked some options that made me think Anora was a backstabbing **** without knowing their consequences.) It's certainly justifiable and definitely not outside the realm of reason that PC+Alistair or PC+Anora could do a better job than Anora, or Alistair, or Anora+Alistair.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the HEA ending of becoming King/Queen factors into many justifications, but it shouldn't somehow be assumed that that's the absolute, only reason people pick this ending. It's not like this is the only HEA, and plenty of people felt otherwise and decided not to take the throne or put Alistair there.

[Sialater]

Actually, I based it on that response when I told her about the elves. You don't get to rule just over SOME of your subjects. And Alistair prevented the shortages that led to the riots in the first place. She did not.

[Original182]

Prisoner24601 wrote...
But Alistair has duties elsewhere.  There's only two (or one - depending on how you play it) Grey Wardens left in the kingdom.  It would take years to rebuild that order, and that's just as important, if not more important than being the King, since the wardens are the people that are the first line of defense against the darkspawn.

Restoring the Grey Wardens in Ferelden is important, but the Wardens can always rebuild on their own without Alistair. Alistair is also a relatively new Grey Warden anyway, so other more experienced Wardens from other countries will probably do a better job than him.

Almost anybody can be a Grey Warden. But only one in all of Ferelden can be a ruler with the Theirin bloodline, and that is Alistair (if the supposed 3rd child of Maric doesn't exist). Therefore I feel Alistair's rightful place is as King of Ferelden.

In fact, politically speaking, Alistair would make a good King for Grey Wardens, since he himself is one. That means with him as King, the Grey Wardens will never be banished from Ferelden as long as Alistair still lives. So that is one extra reason to put him as King.

[Greenphrog]

as opposed to having your soul destoyed? Its a choice.

[Sialater]

Greenphrog wrote...

as opposed to having your soul destoyed? Its a choice.

According to the Chantry, elves and mages have no soul.   I'm good.

[Taleroth]

Sialater wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Sialater wrote...

My elf mage is just disappointed she was apparently not beheaded. (Petty? Me? Noooooo.)

I think you need a hug.

Someone, hug this internet person.

Outsourcing hugs?  Nice. 

Trickle down hugenomics.