164 réponses à ce sujet

[T0paze]

I couldn't care less about being a king. Just not interested. Now, if they offered me the position of an archont in Tevinter that would be something to consider. Ferelden, though, seems to be a backwater place that just doesn't appreciate magic. Pretty sad, actually.

As for crowning Alistair - well, I just don't trust Anora. Like I said in one of the threads here, she's a power-hungry opportunist, and I don't like power-hungry opportunists. So I always choose Alistair, knowing that he has a good heart and will be popular among people, and that he will be assisted by Arl Eamon to make up for Alistair's lack of administrative skills until he learns them.

Modifié par T0paze, 18 décembre 2009 - 06:25 .

[Recidiva]

Taleroth wrote...

You can't know she's going to do anything to Elves.  You have no cause to suspect it, as far as I can tell.  Can you label the decision morally when it's metagame?

There's plenty cause to hold that near and dear to the Origin's heart, considering the city elf origin.  She either doesn't care or she's incompetent.  She's responsible for the state it was in when the game started.  There's no reason to love the current ruler.   My elf holds no love for Cailan either.

That part's completely natural.  There's no need for metagaming knowledge.  Using metagaming knowledge just proves it's true.

[Sialater]

Recidiva wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

You can't know she's going to do anything to Elves.  You have no cause to suspect it, as far as I can tell.  Can you label the decision morally when it's metagame?

There's plenty cause to hold that near and dear to the Origin's heart, considering the city elf origin.  She either doesn't care or she's incompetent.  She's responsible for the state it was in when the game started.  There's no reason to love the current ruler.   My elf holds no love for Cailan either.

That part's completely natural.  There's no need for metagaming knowledge.  Using metagaming knowledge just proves it's true.

Exactly.  She either knows about her father's Tervinter deal, or doesn't care.  Under her "rule," nobles were allowed to raid the alienage for victims.  Yeah, her father took over as regent, but they kept up the fiction/kept claiming that she was ruling and he was just running the armies.  She's either weak, or incompetent, which means I think I'll make my boyfriend king.  (I was disappointed that my elf mage only got the option to help out the mages, not the elves.)  I'd rather be a Grey Warden and ride off into the sunset, but I guess I have a martyr complex.

[th3warr1or]

outlaworacle wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I laugh at you who choose to be king because of Anora - she didn't put out for 5 years with Cailan, you think you'll fare better?

I, on the other hand, got to sample the goods in camp, and Alistair is gooood. LOL

To be fair, I think I find the character attractive mainly because she reminds me a very spoiled princess type girl I dated in high school. Come to think of it, she was frigid like an icebox, too...  Now if I could figure out why my brain reads these traits as "attractive", I could probably improve my life alot...

Nah, I'll just play some more videogames.

Damn right. I found her intensely attractive... like there are only VERY few characters I ever found attractive and wish I found real life counterparts for, and besides Elika, Anora is one of them.

[th3warr1or]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I laugh at you who choose to be king because of Anora - she didn't put out for 5 years with Cailan, you think you'll fare better?

Putting out is in the deal for her remaining queen. Oh yeah!

We all knew Cailan liked playing with his sword more than sticking it in.
Herr Uhl is man enough to make sure she gets it where it counts!

Rofl I laughed so hard at this at 3:23am in the morning I think it made the neighbors wake up.

[DPSSOC]

I put Alistair on the throne every playthrough, except for the one where I don't kill Loghain, without Anora. My main reason for putting Alistair on the throne is that as the rightful heir he has a responsibility to uphold and just as he would not let me shirk my responsibilities as a Grey Warden I will not let him shirk his. Secondly I think he'd be a good king, his nature will ensure he is a fair and gentle king and anything he doesn't know about running a kingdom he can be taught. Finally Loghain is guilty of treason and the punishment for treason is death so I cannot allow him to live.



My reason for not wanting Anora on the throne is tied to why Loghain has to die. Aside from being an intelligent, manipulative, coldly practical woman (all admirable traits in fairness) she is the daughter of a traitor and as such should be stripped of land and title just as the Howe's are. Were it up to me I would have removed her head immediately after Loghain's, she will cause trouble or I'm the Queen of England, unfortunately Alistair decides it's the tower for her. I also would have killed anyone who sided with Loghain at the Landsmeet but I'm big on guilt by association.

[kevinwastaken]

Well if you *care* about Ferelden, then obviously you want to see the country succeed as only your character can allow. Without you as ruler it was all for naught!

[Daithin]

Personaly I think there was one other reason for me not to put Alistair or asume the throne myself. Besides for liking being a Grey Warden. Putting Alistair or myself on the throne is basicaly Tantamount to ending the adventure.



Think of it like X-files, for untold seasons people begged to have Mulder and Sculley get together as a couple. But from a writers point of view (I like to think of myself as a novice story teller) coupling up you leads is a emotional and story death sentence.



Very few story's work without sexual or political tension.



Sure Bioware could decide never to use these characters ever again in expansions or Squeals. Its a possibility. But from my point of view for the good of the story, I figured it would be best to have Myself, Alistair and whoever else left out of the positions of power, so that we could move on and continue untethered moving across Ferelden or Thades in general.



Atleast that is another of my views.

[Xandurpein]

The beauty of debates about morally grey choices like this is of course that it's like debating which colour is best blue or red. The answer is of course that beauty is in the eye of the Beholder. Some like red, some like blue. some see Anora as a decent ruler and maybe even kind of hot, others feel she is a tyrant. If I learned anything from all these debates about who should be King,Queen or whatever is that it is NOT a true flase question. We all make different choices. Hell, I have made different choices on different playthroughs and felt equally justified all the time, depending on what I roleplayed. What gets tireing is that so many people insist on debating these matters in a black and white manner as if they can't put the game down until they are satisfied that they have achieved the RIGHT ending. You decide what is right, and you don't get to choose the everybody is happy ending.



That may seem tough to some, but I firmly believe that you just cannot obtain "puppy and rainbow ending" (as someone so nicely put it in another thread) and keep the emotional involvement in the game. Leave an option for a "perfect" ending and you destroy half the game's emotional impact. It's like all those who want a happy ending with Morrigan's romance. It's a moments satisfaction at the cost of ruining the character. What makes this game so involving is that anything you want to achieve costs. It's the cost that makes the end so great, not the achievement.

[Xandurpein]

JohnnStarr wrote...

power corrupts....absolute power corrupts absolute...

And that is just a cliché with no bearing on the decision on whether Anora or Alistair should be ruler. No King or Queen of Ferelden has absolute power, and if they did and your quote was true, they would automatically turn evil the moment the got crowned. So... what exactly is your point?

[AntiChri5]

Just can't bring myself to trust Anora. Always saw her as a female, younger, sane version of her father. Allistair becoming king is a great ending for him because its the only way more than a fraction of his potential is reached

[Korva]

Daithin wrote...

So I’m playing threw the game again, and since coming to the forum I’ve noticed one particular inclination for people to want to be crowned Queen/king or put someone who DOES NOT WANT to be king on the throne.
 
My question is, why?

Duty.

I don't care about becoming any monarch's consort, personally. Partly because that would require a hetero relationship ... yuck. Partly because I'm not into politics and all that. And partly because if I was, I would want my character to be the monarch herself, not the monarch's bedwarmer and brood sow. (And since it is hard enough for one Grey Warden to produce offspring and impossible for two Wardens to do it with each other, it would be an irresponsible choice in terms of securing the future stability of the country, to boot.)

But my "canon" playthrough does put Alistair on the throne, because Anora is a liar and power-monger not fit to be trusted with walking one's dog, never mind ruling one's country. I don't care what the epilogues say about her being a mostly good ruler -- my choice comes from an IC perspective during the Landsmeet. It strikes me as a lot easier for a good-hearted but insecure person to develop some self-esteem and leadership quality (and Alistair's speeches show that he can do it) than it would be for a lying schemer to become a trustworthy person.

That is why my highly duty-bound, paladin-like do-good noble warrior did her best to get her friend and brother-in-arms to accept the throne. Unlike Eamon, she doesn't worship the Theirin bloodline, though she does recognize that many Fereldans do see it as a symbol of the country. Had Anora been an honest contender worthy of trust and respect, my warrior would gladly have chosen her, but the "queen" shot herself in the foot so good riddance to her.

The same sense of duty made her nail the archdemon's head to the roof of Fort Drakon, so it's not like she spared herself when it comes to "doing the right thing", either. And I as a player love heroic sacrifices.

Xandurpein wrote...

That may seem tough to some, but I firmly believe that you just cannot obtain "puppy and rainbow ending"
(as someone so nicely put it in another thread) and keep the emotional involvement in the game. Leave an option for a "perfect" ending and you destroy half the game's emotional impact.

Amen! That is exactly why the ending, the "ultimate sacrifice", is one of the most involving and satisfying situations in any game I have ever touched. How many games try to portray a gloom-and-doom scenario, yet let the player prance away from it all totally unscathed? That always ruins the premise for me because danger is only credible when it actually costs you something tangible. I want there to be true consequences, true sacrifices, true loss. Not just moments of silly Wangst™ to spice up the Obligatory Romance before the Generic Fairytale Happily Ever After.

DA:O fails to deliver in some aspects I would have expected to see done better, but the ending is damn powerful and well-done.

Modifié par Korva, 18 décembre 2009 - 11:16 .

[Wompoo]

Why save my backside, simple... the Wardens are not heroic to me at all, I find their methods, their attitudes and their zealot-ism nauseating. As far as I am concerned, Duncan was a murder and got what he deserved. If I could, I would spend the last 30 years of my life assassinating very stinking warden for poisoning me. Why on earth a Dwarf would even bother signing a treaty to save humans is beyond me, let them die... they are the solo cause of every problem in Fereldon. Let the Chantry take the poison and slay the demon, heaven knows them and Templar are misguided zealots (their made for martyrdom). I hate crap endings in games and this one has more then its fair share.

[westiex9]

Korva wrote...


Duty.

I don't care about becoming any monarch's consort, personally. Partly because that would require a hetero relationship ... yuck. Partly because I'm not into politics and all that. And partly because if I was, I would want my character to be the monarch herself, not the monarch's bedwarmer and brood sow. (And since it is hard enough for one Grey Warden to produce offspring and impossible for two Wardens to do it with each other, it would be an irresponsible choice in terms of securing the future stability of the country, to boot.)

In my pc's case it was more of an equal partnership, my character was the strength and support behind the throne while allistair was the symbol the people needed. but then everyone would have different views on choosing to rule beside him.

Modifié par westiex9, 19 décembre 2009 - 01:10 .

[Thiefy]

Wow, tons of people saying the women just want to be queen for the sake of being queen and 'being married to a rich man'. Way to come off as entirely ignorant. You do realize that it's GUYS who are more likely to get married to Anora and just have her as a sugar momma?



Majority of the females LOVE Alistair, and that's why they want to marry him. Yes, I suppose we have the option to make ourselves mistresses too (THIS I honestly do not understand. I have too much of a backbone and pride to ever allow myself or my avatars to be 2nd best). How many of those guys marrying Anora love her? Exactly.

[ChickenDownUnder]

I've always felt that it would be better to be the power behind the throne than the person actually sitting on it. Seems.... healthier.

And in my city elf rogue play-through I never betrayed Anora and let her remain ruler. She was all gung-ho about my elf specifically being rescued and wanting him to be her #1 Advisor. I never got any hint that she was racist against elves. This was a playthrough with letting Alistair kill Loghain himself, telling Morrigan "no" to a dragon baby, and letting Alistair have his way when he insisted on taking the final blow against the Archdemon.

Ferelden saw vast improvements to the kingdom with Anora being still a much-loved ruler, with my character credited for thinking up all the improvements. I figured the best way to improve the elven people's lot was to be the guy that had the ruler's ear.

But to be more on topic, becoming king/queen can be seen as the highest rank/level you could possibly get, and people like playing to reach that highest level. There is also bragging rights.

Modifié par ChickenDownUnder, 19 décembre 2009 - 02:02 .

[tausra]

Wompoo wrote...

Why save my backside, simple... the Wardens are not heroic to me at all, I find their methods, their attitudes and their zealot-ism nauseating. As far as I am concerned, Duncan was a murder and got what he deserved. If I could, I would spend the last 30 years of my life assassinating very stinking warden for poisoning me. Why on earth a Dwarf would even bother signing a treaty to save humans is beyond me, let them die... they are the solo cause of every problem in Fereldon. Let the Chantry take the poison and slay the demon, heaven knows them and Templar are misguided zealots (their made for martyrdom). I hate crap endings in games and this one has more then its fair share.

1. They are only zealots because they are in short defending all life everywhere.  This cause demands total dedication.

2. Dwarfs are dieing.  They're numbers are dwindling, their lines are weakening and the darkspawn are endless, they need the surface.

3. Humans are the cause of every problem, but any sentient creature would cause just as many problems. But does that mean we should all kill ourselves to alieviate the problem?

4.  The Chantry may be misguided but their intention is good.  When everyone with an ounce of magical talent can become a monster of death and destruction I'd be cruel and paranoid regarding them too.

Modifié par tausra, 19 décembre 2009 - 02:17 .

[Original182]

Wompoo wrote...

Why on earth a Dwarf would even bother signing a treaty to save humans is beyond me, let them die... they are the solo cause of every problem in Fereldon.

Dwarves would sign a treaty with the Grey Wardens because they respect the Grey Wardens. When they are about to die from the taint, they always go to the Deep Roads to kill as many darkspawn as possible till they die. That has earned the respect of the dwarves.

And also because they are not as sour grapes as you.

[ejoslin]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Wow, tons of people saying the women just want to be queen for the sake of being queen and 'being married to a rich man'. Way to come off as entirely ignorant. You do realize that it's GUYS who are more likely to get married to Anora and just have her as a sugar momma?

Majority of the females LOVE Alistair, and that's why they want to marry him. Yes, I suppose we have the option to make ourselves mistresses too (THIS I honestly do not understand. I have too much of a backbone and pride to ever allow myself or my avatars to be 2nd best). How many of those guys marrying Anora love her? Exactly.

No, not all women who marry Alistair love him.  My noble female most assuredly did not, but she felt she would be the best queen and was very clear about that to Ali (there are interesting dialog options when you become engaged when at 100 friendly).  Of course, my first play through, I loved Alistair, then got the whole "wow, you know how to ask the hard questions," which all women should know means run and run FAST.  In fact, that's one thing I really liked about the game AND the reaction of a lot of female gamers (of which I'm one); the realization that love is not always enough.  I know the first time I played through, I was shocked at being dumped, but when I looked back, I realized I should have seen it coming.  And I liked the message that trying to make people feel better is not always what they need to hear.

[PatT2]

Interesting options, those (ejoslin). I had never tried that. I've been trying to avoid the whole "where do you think this is going" conversation and have 100% love. Don't know where it's going to go yet but I have to decide, like now. I already pretty much said "nevermind" to Anora when I brought up her marrying Alistair, and she commented that it looks like he and I are an item.



It's amazing how many different dialogs you can get for the same (or nearly same) set of circumstances.

[Thiefy]

ejoslin wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Wow, tons of people saying the women just want to be queen for the sake of being queen and 'being married to a rich man'. Way to come off as entirely ignorant. You do realize that it's GUYS who are more likely to get married to Anora and just have her as a sugar momma?

Majority of the females LOVE Alistair, and that's why they want to marry him. Yes, I suppose we have the option to make ourselves mistresses too (THIS I honestly do not understand. I have too much of a backbone and pride to ever allow myself or my avatars to be 2nd best). How many of those guys marrying Anora love her? Exactly.

No, not all women who marry Alistair love him.  My noble female most assuredly did not, but she felt she would be the best queen and was very clear about that to Ali (there are interesting dialog options when you become engaged when at 100 friendly).  Of course, my first play through, I loved Alistair, then got the whole "wow, you know how to ask the hard questions," which all women should know means run and run FAST.  In fact, that's one thing I really liked about the game AND the reaction of a lot of female gamers (of which I'm one); the realization that love is not always enough.  I know the first time I played through, I was shocked at being dumped, but when I looked back, I realized I should have seen it coming.  And I liked the message that trying to make people feel better is not always what they need to hear.

Yes, that's why I said majority. Still my main point being those accusations that people were making were more accurate for males than females. The same women who are queen are just as happy to ride off into the sunset with Alistair, titleless. I doubt the same can be said for the PC x Anora shippers.

[Original182]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...
Yes, that's why I said majority. Still my main point being those accusations that people were making were more accurate for males than females. The same women who are queen are just as happy to ride off into the sunset with Alistair, titleless. I doubt the same can be said for the PC x Anora shippers.

No dear, it is more accurate for females. Saying that men marry women just for their money is like saying women think of sex all the time. It's the other way round.

I see that you're just trying to turn the tables. But it's not gonna make it less true.

[Thiefy]

Original182 wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...
Yes, that's why I said majority. Still my main point being those accusations that people were making were more accurate for males than females. The same women who are queen are just as happy to ride off into the sunset with Alistair, titleless. I doubt the same can be said for the PC x Anora shippers.

No dear, it is more accurate for females. Saying that men marry women just for their money is like saying women think of sex all the time. It's the other way round.

I see that you're just trying to turn the tables. But it's not gonna make it less true.

Not really. Women do think about sex all the time, we are just smart enought to use it against guys, lol. People here are claimg that most people who become king or queen do it for the status, or "because they can", like it's the main end goal, or for bragging rights instead of from an RP perspective.

I'm arguing this is more true for men than women, because the woman actually care for Alistair. It's not like the guys marry Anora for sex anyway.

[Original182]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Original182 wrote...
No dear, it is more accurate for females. Saying that men marry women just for their money is like saying women think of sex all the time. It's the other way round.

I see that you're just trying to turn the tables. But it's not gonna make it less true.

Not really. Women do think about sex all the time, we are just smart enought to use it against guys, lol. People here are claimg that most people who become king or queen do it for the status, or "because they can", like it's the main end goal, or for bragging rights instead of from an RP perspective.

I'm arguing this is more true for men than women, because the woman actually care for Alistair. It's not like the guys marry Anora for sex anyway.

In Alistair and Anora's specific situation, you're quite right. Alistair did start out as the commoner, and Anora started out as the queen, i.e. sugar mama. But you must admit that surely female gamers do romance with Alistair just so they can be queen. Not the majority, but some do.

I've heard rumors that a female noble PC can be queen all by herself.
If that's true, then female noble PCs who romance with Alistair because they love him has more weight.
If that's not true, then it's more probable that female noble PCs romance Alistair just to be queen, since it is the ONLY route to becoming queen.

[Tirigon]

You have to become queen or king if you want to save Ferelden. If you dont, the only choice is between a power-hungry, cruel, treacherous **** (aka Anora) and a nice guy with a good heart (Alistair), who is, however, neither willing nor able to rule. So, until a DLC or mod adds more possible leaders for Ferelden every true Warden has to sacrifice his lust for travelling and become ruler, for the sake of the people.