22 réponses à ce sujet

[Stammwuerze]

Hi,

So, it is my understanding that most of you guys feel that the mage is very powerful.
I think so too. The mage has a wide repertoire of damage, control and weaken spells.
But I think, they really lack one sort of thing: direct damage.
My mage has currently about 80 magic and is doing laughable damage with "Lightning" and "Arcane Bolt".
Laughable in that case is around 60 damage.
I really don't want this thread to become like: "heeyyy lol rofl you have soo many otha tools".

The matter of fact, that the mage is too good in other fields of the gameplay is a whole other thing.

What do you guys think? Is it a planned weakness of the mage, or is it some misconception?
To compare the above number: Alistar, tank specced is hitting around 70 damage. My dual wield warrior is doing around 90 damage a hit.
On a sidenote, I think there are not enough direct damage spells without side-effects like friendly fire.
 

[OneBadAssMother]

Personally I find mages balanced except that without them; no heal, no CC - which means things a lot harder. You are right that direct damage on a single target - that's for warriors/rogues.

[Faerell Gustani]

single target direct damage is slightly slow for DPS.

However, they're good at burst damage since their damage is not mitigated by armor and enemies don't have tremendous resistances. So you see that one enemy at 1/3rd of his life, have your mage finish him off and let your warrior/rogues move onto different targets.

[Rainen89]

Mages excell at aoe damage not as much at single target. The best dpser single target is still and will probably always be a rogue. Mages are considered "OP" because of how much control they have over a fight. CC/AOE/Debuffs/Buffs/Heals/Rezzing. Etc. Not because they can hit a boss the hardest. Although you will hit quite hard with spells, especially with Vuln hex on it.

[PatT2]

I think the very point you make is the one why it is optimal to use a mixed party. Mages aren't meant to be one-hit-killers (though they certainly can do that). The problem is, like you said, friendly fire. The highest hit points I've achieved in a player so far is either a dual wielding rogue, or an archer with all the buffs. But an archer can only get off one arrow of slaying and then has to use his other talents because of the cool-down time. But that one arrow can be amazingly huge damage.



I can get lots of damage with a bomb, but again, there's the friendly fire aspect. And bombs have much smaller range than the mage's CC spells.



A purely offensive mage is one of the most vulnerable targets int he game. Maybe deadly, but if they lose their tank or other protection, they can also get offed really fast.



Not speaking of arcane warrior here. Never really tried that. Or blood mage. There are so many spell lines to play with that it takes multiple playthroughs and multiple mages just to experience them all. But to me, a mage with a sword and heavy armor is a gimped mage. Or a bast***rdized warrior. Or something. Something. It may work well for lots of folks, but it sort of defeats the pure mage build thing.



Sure they are both powerful and vulnerable. The game was designed for a team approach. Not a single, all powerful, superhero player where all your party members are conditional and short term. I know folks play it that way, but it isn't in line with the original design intent. Not saying it's wrong. It's just much harder. lot like trying to be extremely accurate with a sledgehammer when what you really need is a ball-pien. It's not the right tool for the job. It might work, but it's a true challenge to make it work. Some folks do it for that very challenge. For me, it just seems very weird to try to make one tool work when another tool is perfectly designed for the situation. But if that's what turns folks on...who am I to say?



As designed, with mages of different sorts, and no all-powerful beings, each has his place and the team is the superhero...and it works spectacularly well. The dps folks watching out for the fragile healing mage, the tank pulling threat away, etc.



But there will always be folks who put bands together making music iwth kitchen implements, even though there are splendid instruments to be had. It's just what they like to do. The mage was never intended to complete the game alone. That it can be done...(well, except when others are forced into your team), yeah, I guess. There's always the banging on pots and pans.

[SfHell]

Your mage will have a few huge damage abilities. It's true, dealing pure damage isn't what they excell, their hole is for me is pure crowd control and they excell at it. Paralyze, Gylph of Paralyze, Gylph of repulsion, crushing prision, force field, with only one mage in the party with these spellls you can knock out any mob with little effort.

And let's not forget a well placed Cone of Cold when all the enemies have lined up on your tank and sneak sideways to freeze them all.
In later levels you can add fireball ( I don't see it as priority over the spells above) and then you are really set.
Don't spend points on the last area damage spells from the elemental three.(inferno, tempest etc) They take forever to load, are very very situational ( you can count the times where you will be able to use it effectively) and damage is poor. On nightmare the damage would be like 13 of the burning, which is poor and you have to wait until it settles to charge with your party. Unless you build a high resistance to fire party(wade's armors, juggernault and the 30 spell resistance accessorie), then you can spam fireball and iferno all the way, really cool to play this way.

Modifié par SfHell, 17 décembre 2009 - 09:32 .

[Jestert]

think of mage as a force multiplier.

[Fleapants]

Mages have to have at least 1 area where they don't reign supreme.



Still, Horror on a Sleeped + Affliction Hexed target hits for 100-150.

[Cryo84]

PatT2 wrote...



Not speaking of arcane warrior here. Never really tried that. Or blood mage. There are so many spell lines to play with that it takes multiple playthroughs and multiple mages just to experience them all. But to me, a mage with a sword and heavy armor is a gimped mage. Or a bast***rdized warrior. Or something. Something. It may work well for lots of folks, but it sort of defeats the pure mage build thing.

Sure they are both powerful and vulnerable. The game was designed for a team approach. Not a single, all powerful, superhero player where all your party members are conditional and short term. I know folks play it that way, but it isn't in line with the original design intent. Not saying it's wrong. It's just much harder. lot like trying to be extremely accurate with a sledgehammer when what you really need is a ball-pien. It's not the right tool for the job. It might work, but it's a true challenge to make it work. Some folks do it for that very challenge. For me, it just seems very weird to try to make one tool work when another tool is perfectly designed for the situation. But if that's what turns folks on...who am I to say?

Being awesome is so much more fun than depending on your team to pick up the slack.
I don't even use a party any more.

Modifié par Cryo84, 18 décembre 2009 - 01:01 .

[DodgeMoreLightning]

So, it is my understanding that most of you guys feel that the mage is very powerful.
I think so too. The mage has a wide repertoire of damage, control and weaken spells.
But I think, they really lack one sort of thing: direct damage.
My mage has currently about 80 magic and is doing laughable damage with "Lightning" and "Arcane Bolt".
Laughable in that case is around 60 damage.
I really don't want this thread to become like: "heeyyy lol rofl you have soo many otha tools".

The matter of fact, that the mage is too good in other fields of the gameplay is a whole other thing.

What do you guys think? Is it a planned weakness of the mage, or is it some misconception?
To compare the above number: Alistar, tank specced is hitting around 70 damage. My dual wield warrior is doing around 90 damage a hit.
On a sidenote, I think there are not enough direct damage spells without side-effects like friendly fire.
 

I agree that they don't deal much damage with their single target spells, and that there are limited options for damage without friendly fire. I don't know if the first was intentional (they probably didn't expect people to pull off ridiculous damage with melee as they expected to get people to balance their stats out), but I'm fairly sure the second one is given how much they appreciated friendly fire in Baldur's Gate.

I certainly don't expect that to change as mages are the only ones with real control options, so them having inferior single-target damage options seems like not enough of a disadvantage.

[BootOnFace]

Mages with mana clash can freakin' destroy any target or targets that use mana. I've the heavy hitter achievement because of that spell.

[Jo_]

aoe and cc is where they shine and where they dramaticly reduce the dificulty of the game. who cares if they hit for 60 instead of 70 when 12 enemies that would otherwise slaughter your party are standing still doing nothing.



With that said you've missed the good single target dps spells.

[alexandros777]

Well Entropic death can hit hard. So can Morrigan with winter's chill, while under Spell Might and with her super robes, plus those ice multiplier items.

[Cybercat999]

Being used to playing mages in other games I was bit surprised at lack of decent single target spells too at first. But then they have so many CC and AoE options in this game that giving them something more would be just wrong.

[Haplose]

Fleapants wrote...

Mages have to have at least 1 area where they don't reign supreme.

Still, Horror on a Sleeped + Affliction Hexed target hits for 100-150.

Yeah, that's a strong combo. And the quoted damage is probably for the lower levels and without +%spirit equipment.
My non-optimized Morrigan does more like 250 with Horror. An optimized mage could probably easily beat 300.

Entropic Death is even better... though it requires you to cast one of these situational AOEs.

But for single target damage let's not forget the DOTs. They are maybe less spectacular, but do their job really well. The damage really adds over time. Curse of Mortality, Crushing Prison, Virulent Walking Bomb (carefull with this one... but if there is only 1 boss mob - no problem...)

Also instant shatters with Stonefist on Frozen/Petrified mobs.


It's really hard to complain, when the mages can cause over 100 damage per tick to every target in a huge aoe with Storm of the Century (though often it's not that practical to use).

Modifié par Haplose, 18 décembre 2009 - 08:45 .

[Funker Shepard]

Fleapants wrote...

Mages have to have at least 1 area where they don't reign supreme.

Still, Horror on a Sleeped + Affliction Hexed target hits for 100-150.

And I got Heavy Hitter with virulent walking bomb.

[T0paze]

Mana Clash (this one is absolutely fantastic. Not only does it take care of each and every mage in the game, it is AOE AND deals an amount of damage that can in some cases be twice the amount required for the Heavy Hitter achievement).
Crushing Prison
Shatter (the ultimate form of direct damage - things don't get better than that)
Entropic Death
Nightmare (Sleep plus Horror)
Affliction Hex + primal spells
Even Storm of the Century, although that's situational.

The all deal very decent damage.

If you're not satisfied with that, you can always become an Arcane Warrior. Your damage will be comparable to that of warriors, and your armor and defense ratings will be much better. You can also cast Death Hex on your enemies before engaging them in melee - that will be pretty much a death sentence for anyone.

Modifié par T0paze, 18 décembre 2009 - 08:15 .

[T0paze]

Fleapants wrote...

Mages have to have at least 1 area where they don't reign supreme.

Still, Horror on a Sleeped + Affliction Hexed target hits for 100-150.

They don't.


Go Arcane Warrior/Blood Mage. If you choose your spells wisely, you'll reign supreme in each and every situation. Actually, that makes sense. Everyone in Ferelden will tell you how powerful Blood Magic is. As for Arcane Warriors, it's even more exciting since it's a lost specialization that only a few characters still possess - your PC, that mage in the Ruined Temple and, perhaps, Gaxkang (not sure about that one). The combination of these specializations is just bound to be deadly, and it is. Not exactly best for the balance, but in terms of lore that's just natural. I only wish that they'd somehow offset this in dialogs - for example, blood mages could be treated with suspicion if not open hostility, and Arcane Warriors would have to explain to the authorities how they actually manage to fight the way they do. If they implemented something like that, it would be just fine. But, unfortunately, they didn't.

Modifié par T0paze, 18 décembre 2009 - 08:36 .

[Gecon]

Try Death Hex + Death Cloud.



Or Mana Clash on Mages.



Or put up Damage over Time stuff like Corpse Explosion.



Mage is more than fine even on single targets.



Even if I fail to understand why you expect to excell with single target spells like Arcane Bolt or Lightning ...

[Zan Mura]

Stammwuerze wrote...
On a sidenote, I think there are not enough direct damage spells without side-effects like friendly fire.
 

Personally
I think there are too many spells without friendly fire. Not that I
blame BW, considering how much whining we had to endure from people
about the friendly fire in the first place: a mechanic I consider
mandatory for any good gaming experience (no friendly fire feels about
as fun, challenging and tactical as god-mode and infinite ammo).

Now
there are two kinds of friendly fire spells, cone and area. There
could've been a line (ie. a direct line to enemy, everything in that
line would get hit as well / instead), other shapes or complex
conditions, and this combined with various abilities designed to avoid
certain types of spells. For example the good old "protection against
fire + fireball" combo.

Anyway, seems a bit biased to come here
and say mages have too little direct damage, and then claim people
can't use their strengths in other areas as a justification. It's not
unlike me saying "i think like this, and if you don't agree then go
talk somewhere else". It's exactly in those utility areas and
especially AoE effects where the strengths of a mage lie. Especially
with hard+ difficulties, one of the reasons I disagreed with people who
claimed mages were the be-all-end-all of combat, was the fact that in
higher levels and higher difficulties, most of their spells are
entirely useless against elites not to mention bosses. These buggers
tend to be immune or borderline completely resistant against most
spells.

Typically in my games, the mages start off as insane
heavy-artillery, and eventually migrate into a role of AoE, control,
utility and heals. They are always powerful and important, but towards
the end they also make room for warriors and rogues. And that's not a
bad thing.

Gecon wrote...
Try Death Hex + Death Cloud.
Or Mana Clash on Mages.
Even if I fail to understand why you expect to excell with single target spells like Arcane Bolt or Lightning ...

Death Hex + Death Cloud require too many points invested in
garbage. Those talents are, in my opinion at least, better spent
elsewhere. Not just for power, but for more interesting gameplay as
well.

Mana Clash on the other hand is insane, totally ridiculous. After you get that, you *will* one-shot
all mages in the game, all at the same time (if there are multiple in
the same combat for example), before they get a chance to act. And
against magic-wielding bosses on hard difficulty, it has a great chance
to pass through resistances and when it does, tends to deliver 50-70%
of total health damage to the boss. But of course, the target needs to have mana.

And
as said before, Arcane Bolt and Lightning are good examples of the
kinds of spells that don't really do much good towards the last 1/3:rd
of the game, against anything other than trash mobs and the occasional lower-end elite at least. They just get resisted.

Edit: Christ this forum screws up these messages every single time. Extra row-changes, doesn't update edits, double slashes etc. Jeez...

Modifié par Zan Mura, 18 décembre 2009 - 09:52 .

[Naxarrath]

Don't spend points on the last area damage spells from the elemental three.(inferno, tempest etc) They take forever to load, are very very situational ( you can count the times where you will be able to use it effectively) and damage is poor. On nightmare the damage would be like 13 of the burning, which is poor and you have to wait until it settles to charge with your party. Unless you build a high resistance to fire party(wade's armors, juggernault and the 30 spell resistance accessorie), then you can spam fireball and iferno all the way, really cool to play this way.

I used inferno all the time without any fire resistance you just need to use it right, about +30% firedamage gear it was fiery hell for mobs and since npc's are rather stupid all you need is to cast glyph of repulsion and see them getting knocked back in center of inferno unless they resist ofcourse and use fire ball to knock them even more.

Also tempest is one of the spell you need to create SotC that really waste everything.

Modifié par Naxarrath, 18 décembre 2009 - 10:10 .

[BroBear Berbil]

If you want single target dps then stack the resist hexes. Problem solved.

Modifié par OnionXI, 18 décembre 2009 - 11:51 .

[Lord Niah]

Way to use AoE's.



1. Put down glyph of repulsion at bottle neck, such as a doorway

2. Cast spell from behind cover

3. Watch everything die.



Or you could just fireball or mass paralyze stuff to give you time to cast your AoE.





As far as defenses go, even a mage without arcane warrior can make himself nearly invulnerable.



Just stand on top of a glyph of warding + glyph of repulsion with arcane shield. If this doesn't work, then you can always use the good old tactic of kiting with cone of cold. You can also slap a hex of misdirection on the toughest melee or ranged attacker to make him useless. Or you could just use any number of cc spells.