258 réponses à ce sujet

[mauro2222]

maaaze wrote...

I thought it was written pretty good...

maybe people should stop to pretending it was badly written and just admit that either they simply did not understood the ending or they did not like the direction the ending took.

Oh please, you don't even need a brain to understand the stupidity of the ending.

It's simple, cheap and bad writing.

[Justin2k]

Oh and why did every single reaper in ME3 (machine) look the same. Wasn't it established at the end of ME2 that the reapers built out of races that they had conquered and took a form as such?

[mauro2222]

wantedman dan wrote...

kyban wrote...

ld1449 wrote...

Justin2k wrote...

I agree.  As stated before, anyone is free to form their own opinion.

While "is this good?" on an opinion basis is not a great question, "is this good?" on a literary basis is easily proven.  The fact there are plotholes, that fans have to invent and make up things that are not present in the plot so that it makes sense or satisfies them tells us that it is badly written. 

The fanboys do not help.  By defending writing that is evidently sub-par in many ways (the ending being only one of those ways), all you do is encourage such writing to continue.  If you loved Mass Effect 2, the attitude shouldn't be "well i'll forgive Bioware for this because i loved Mass Effect 2" it should be "Why is this nowhere nearly as good as Mass Effect 2?"  If they feel they can get away with sub par, and by all means there was plenty of sub par about ME3 from gameplay elements to story elements, then sub par is what you will get.

The fact the average parts aremixed with brilliance shouldn't make a difference.  In fact we know they're capable of coming up with better.  You shouldn't defend what comes down to slack writing.

Agreed.

Seconded.

Thirded.

Perfectly stated.

[Mazebook]

ld1449 wrote...

maaaze wrote...


No...i just take what the narrative gives me...and just don´t make any baseless assumptions...

Every narrative in the world takes less time explaining things for the sake of pacing...you just have to assume the reader can figure it out on their own to move the plot forward...doing otherwise would be infact bad writting. 

......Soooooo.

You take only what the Narative gives you.

But writers have to assume the readers can figure out on their own certain points. Meaning that the readers have to MAKE ASSUMPTIONS which according to you. You did not do... seeing as how you stress that you only took what the narative gave you...but some how have a magnificent understanding of this ending that eluded millions without having to make assumptions...huh.

You know. At this point I'm curious.

What exactly are the "baseless assumptions" you believe people made.

And what did the Narative give you that let you reach conclusions that was not basless like "everyone elses."

You have to make assumptions...like in every story ever written...these assumptions just have to be in tune with the narrative.

two exampels :

that the catalyst has the means and the will to control the citadel...which he clearly has not.

That the Catalyst is lying... there is no indication that he is lying in the narrative...the dilema he´s presented to you can be found throughout the series.

going to bed now...further reply´s will take time.

[Sundance31us]

Clarification Request: If someone has an opinion contrary to your own you think they are pretending?

[DMWW]

Justin2k wrote...
  By defending writing that is evidently sub-par in many ways (the ending being only one of those ways), all you do is encourage such writing to continue.  If you loved Mass Effect 2, the attitude shouldn't be "well i'll forgive Bioware for this because i loved Mass Effect 2" it should be "Why is this nowhere nearly as good as Mass Effect 2?"  If they feel they can get away with sub par, and by all means there was plenty of sub par about ME3 from gameplay elements to story elements, then sub par is what you will get.

The problem is that this is question-begging. I agree that if the writing in ME3 was sub-par, defending it would be counter-productive. But since I think it's fine, that argument isn't going to move me.

[Arken]

maaaze wrote...
Raising Questions and adding Points to it is the main porpuse of any kind narrative structure.

I think I understand where you're getting confused.

You're confusing Mass Effect's ending with an ending that gives the audience a question rather than an answer.

This actually isn't as common as you're making it sound since most authors love to preach to their readers, and try to have a very clear message in their story.

Although other authors prefer to end the story with a question. The question isn't a question of the events of the story, but a question of what these events mean to the reader. When the audience is asked to find their own meaning it doesn't mean the audience is asked to make up their own ending.

It means the audience is meant to ask themselves what this means to them on a personal level. 

This isn't literally leaving the audience without an answer. All of the important aspects of the plot should be fully resolved upon the completion of the story unless they in some way where meant to be left unresolved to make the audience ask themselves a question.

An example of this is a story that ends with a man being held at gunpoint. The entire story was about the man who is about to be shot. The story made the reader learn more about them, and care about their struggle. Though the story also focused on the man's guilt and the things he had done in the past. Throughout the story, the reader is expecting for the conclusion to be when the man finally makes peace with his past.

The story ends with the man being at the mercy of someone whose life he destroyed beyond repair. The story ends without letting the reader know whether or not the man lived or died. Instead it ends by asking the reader a question, "Did he deserve to be forgiven?"

All other plot points are completed, and resolved. The falling action tells of how everyone else who the man made peace with is now better off, or how their lives have gotten worse. But the reader can't be told whether he lived or not, because that ultimately depends on whether or not the reader believes he truly deserved to live.

This doesn't exactly mean that the man's death would be a bad thing. In a situation like this, death could be seen as the ultimate act of retribution. In death, the man is finally free of the horrible things he had done. If he dies, he is finally free from his past sins.

Catharsis is still achieved whether the man lives or dies. It's ultimately a question of what the reader believes about redemption.

Inception, Old Boy, the Prestige, and many others all had endings like this.

The audience is ultimately left with a question of what they think is the best resolution to the story, and is then expected to dwell on what this means for them on a personal level.



Mass Effect 3 didn't do this. At all. You can't even pretend that it did. It doesn't leave the player with anything. It doesn't even reflect on the main message of the entire series that was paramount in Mass Effect 2.

"Our greatest strength is what makes us different."

This is even brought up again in Mass Effect 3 when Javik explicitly states that the reason the protheans fells is because they had focused too much on assimilation rather than letting different cultures breed.

[Justin2k]

Sundance31us wrote...

Clarification Request: If someone has an opinion contrary to your own you think they are pretending?

No.  As I said many times before people are welcome to their opinions, and thats fine.  If you wish to believe an indoctrination theory, or that the Catalyst is really Shepard's father or whatever, not a problem.

Unfortunately no such theory can be proven.  The fact that there are plotholes, that the ending is not consicive with the series as a whole and that the majority of the fans were left unsatisfied can be.

I personally believe the "Deus Ex Machina" theory.  That Mac Walters liked that game so much he stole it's ending and shoehorned it into a game it didn't belong in.  Doesn't make it true, but I find that theory more likely than any theory.

Modifié par Justin2k, 19 juillet 2012 - 12:40 .

[wantedman dan]

Justin2k wrote...

I personally believe the "Deus Ex Machina" theory.  That Mac Walters liked that game so much he stole it's ending.  Doesn't make it true, but people will believe what they like.

At least DE:HR's ending was thematically appeasing.

[shurikenmanta]

Tell you what. We'll stop saying it's anything other than bad writing when you stop saying all your 'critique' is anything but whining.

In before 'hyerrr whining about whining the rules don't apply to me'.

[Justin2k]

Lets be honest, the indoctrination theory and everything like the indoctrination theory may as well be called the Bioware is my favorite game developer and has never let me down so they have an awesome ending planned and rather than tell me what it is they're letting me use my imagination and make it up myself because they're awesome like that theory. The ending is what it is. Bad writing.

[en2ym3]

I agree that it was bad writing, and I can see the frustration in people holding so much faith in Bioware when it isn't deserved.

However, I don't mind people making up theories, of any kind, for fun/the sake of it. It can be really interesting, and it's much more fun than the angrier of arguments about which ending decision is more ethical.

[en2ym3]

Justin2k wrote...

Lets be honest, the indoctrination theory and everything like the indoctrination theory may as well be called the Bioware is my favorite game developer and has never let me down so they have an awesome ending planned and rather than tell me what it is they're letting me use my imagination and make it up myself because they're awesome like that theory. The ending is what it is. Bad writing.

That's not completely fair.  You're belittling their opinions.  They may see that Bioware is flawed, and they may talk about a theory just to talk about the idea, or because accepting a certain theory that changes their headcanon is preferable to accepting the ending that was actually given to the series, or the like.  Not everyone who talks about theories is a blindly faithful fanboy or sycophant.

[Zaidra]

Grumpy-Mcfart wrote...

seconded

...thirded? xD

[Wyatt Shepard]

Justin2k wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

You likely also think that "little child with hoodie" is Catalyst's true form?

Besides: Mass Effect >>>>>>> Star Wars.

I can see the implication that the child is not the catalysts true form.  It still doesn't make the plot better.   Perhaps if we had seen it in a more interesting sci-fi form than the starchild, it would have been more impressive and satisfying, but it still would have been a generic deus ex machina ending.

Mass Effect is better than star wars but the original star wars triology had a far more satisfying conclusion for it's fans.

I'm sorry dude, it's fine that you don't like the ending, but I cannot help but think what you are asking for is a pretty spoon fed sorta thing. Essentially: Good guys win, yay! 

The comparison with Star Wars/LOTR is pretty silly. Vastly different plots which don't move in the same direction at all. Mass Effect isn't either one of those stories. So to say it should have an ending like those stories makes no really sense. I mean you can say you don't like the ME3 ending for X reasons, but saying it shoudl have an ending like those two stories gets you no place.

For one thing, Star Wars is a much simplier, straight forward good vs. evil story than Mass Effect is, which is filled with shades of grey. (get you mind out of the gutter, you know what I mean.) The "what if the starbrat was in Return of the Jedi" isn't even an argument. Mass Effect doesn't even relate to Star Wars much, save for the whole "space adventure" thing.

Similairly, the end of LOTR doesn't give us anything to compare to either, at least in the way you have presented it (The end of LOTR is deliberately an anticlimax. GETTING to the ending was what the whole damn thing was about, not the ending itself.)

EXCEPT (and I am surprised you missed this as a literature major) that Frodo is asked to make choice between two options - be good or be bad. True, no fancy colours and the like, but Frodo's choice is vastly more simplistic than what Shep has to navigate at the end of ME3. The choices Shep is required to make are more complicated, uncomfortable and anything but "good guys win! yay!"

Mass Effect sets up much different parameters for it's villians from the get go. We know from the first game that we cannot just walk up and punch the Reapers in the face. Conventional victory impossible. Hence the Crucible. 

Now, one can make an argument that the starbrat comes out of no place and therefore, is sorta silly. The use of Harbinger in the same role would have been much more dramatic and fullfilling. (I personally agree with that idea). The starbrat is an odd addition to the story at such a late hour, I agree. 

However, if ME3 had ended like Star Wars, I would have been profoundly disapointed. I did not want to see the same kind of ending we've seen a gazillion times over in all kinds of adventure stories. If you want the Star Wars ending, go watch Star Wars.

Although I will admit there are problems with the end of ME3, even after EC, I liked the endings. They were rather like the end of 2001. Not straight forward. Not spoon fed (although they are much more spoon fed in the EC). The writers tried to do something different. One can decide for one's own self if they suceeded. But I find the comparison and insistance that Mass Effect ends "like" Star Wars or LOTR to be fairly empty.

[Jere85]

I'm commander Shepard and i approve the OP.

[shurikenmanta]

Justin2k wrote...

Lets be honest, the indoctrination theory and everything like the indoctrination theory may as well be called the Bioware is my favorite game developer and has never let me down so they have an awesome ending planned and rather than tell me what it is they're letting me use my imagination and make it up myself because they're awesome like that theory. The ending is what it is. Bad writing.

Hey, at least they're having fun with it and making the best of a bad situation rather than rattling their chains like a sad ghost and posting nothing but angry vitriol.

[Wyatt Shepard]

Justin2k wrote...

Lets be honest, the indoctrination theory and everything like the indoctrination theory may as well be called the Bioware is my favorite game developer and has never let me down so they have an awesome ending planned and rather than tell me what it is they're letting me use my imagination and make it up myself because they're awesome like that theory. The ending is what it is. Bad writing.

Not at all. I also think this is unfair. Again, I wonder if you think the ending of 2001 was bad writing too. To get through that you need to think think think. Use your imagination. 

[Justin2k]

Wyatt Shepard wrote...

-snip-

That's a great post you wrote there.  And I agree with you on many points.  However just a couple of things.

Frodo may have had a choice.  Star Wars may have had a good guys win, darth vader is nice really, predictable ending.  However both endings perfectly fitted the triology and sent people off home on a good note.

Have you played Red Dead Redemption?  Your hero dies at the very end of the game and the last 2% you play as his son.  It was a controversial ending.  However it fitted the game.

My argument with this ending is it does not fit.  You can make an argument for it fitting Mass Effect 3 as a standalone game and that is a flimsy argument in itself.  Apart from the child at the beginning, the recurring dreams and the conflict on Rannoch which is SOLVED, there is little foreshadowing.  However as for the series as a whole, this ending came out of left field, we all know it did because there wouldn't be such an uproar.

I believe the ending to Mass Effect should have involved defeating Harbinger, saving the galaxy and going on from there.  Shepard could live die or whatever.   The world could be wartorn or blown apart.  But this ending?  They tried to be too arty.  Or they ran out of time, played Deus ex machina and said "ah that'll do". 

Noone can really argue that this is a great ending.  They may personally have liked it.  But if it was great or even good, it wouldn't have caused so much fuss.  Also look at Mac Walters (hudson's best friend) writing credentials and it's clear he was not really the right man for the job.

[Justin2k]

Wyatt Shepard wrote...

Justin2k wrote...

Lets be honest, the indoctrination theory and everything like the indoctrination theory may as well be called the Bioware is my favorite game developer and has never let me down so they have an awesome ending planned and rather than tell me what it is they're letting me use my imagination and make it up myself because they're awesome like that theory. The ending is what it is. Bad writing.

Not at all. I also think this is unfair. Again, I wonder if you think the ending of 2001 was bad writing too. To get through that you need to think think think. Use your imagination. 

No, that was a wonderful ending.  It was also original and fitted the movie.  There is nothing wrong with imaginative and creative endings that fit the source material.  ME3's ending is neither original, creative or fits the material.  In fact it is straight up stolen from Deus Ex Machina right down to the colours and choices.

[shurikenmanta]

I still don't see how it was stolen. Shepard never joined the Illuminati or turned off the interwebs...

Hell, the 'new dark age' ending in Deus Ex was inspired by the end of Escape from LA.

Modifié par shurikenmanta, 19 juillet 2012 - 01:17 .

[Justin2k]

shurikenmanta wrote...

I still don't see how it was stolen. Shepard never joined the Illuminati or turned off the interwebs...

Hell, the 'new dark age' ending in Deus Ex was inspired by the end of Escape from LA.

Thats because you are a fanboy.  Go watch the Deus Ex Machina ending on youtube.  Same choices.  Same colours even.

[shurikenmanta]

Justin2k wrote...

shurikenmanta wrote...

I still don't see how it was stolen. Shepard never joined the Illuminati or turned off the interwebs...

Hell, the 'new dark age' ending in Deus Ex was inspired by the end of Escape from LA.

Thats because you are a fanboy.  Go watch the Deus Ex Machina ending on youtube.  Same choices.  Same colours even.

I would argue that I have probably played Deus Ex (not 'Deus Ex Machina') to a greater extent than yourself. The choices are not identical at all - no more so then New Dark Age was identical to Escape from LA.

I'm not even dignifying the 'you are a fanboi so your opinion is irrelevant' shot with a response, it dismisses itself better than I ever could have.

If you're going to make wild accusations of a criminal nature (plaigiarism), back it up with your own evidence and arguments.

Modifié par shurikenmanta, 19 juillet 2012 - 01:28 .

[Justin2k]

shurikenmanta wrote...

Justin2k wrote...

shurikenmanta wrote...

I still don't see how it was stolen. Shepard never joined the Illuminati or turned off the interwebs...

Hell, the 'new dark age' ending in Deus Ex was inspired by the end of Escape from LA.

Thats because you are a fanboy.  Go watch the Deus Ex Machina ending on youtube.  Same choices.  Same colours even.

I would argue that I have probably played Deus Ex (not 'Deus Ex Machina') to a greater extent than yourself. The choices are not identical at all - no more so then New Dark Age was identical to Escape from LA.

I'm not even dignifying the 'you are a fanboi so your opinion is irrelevant' shot with a response, it dismisses itself better than I ever could have.

If you're going to make wild accusations of a criminal nature (plaigiarism), back it up with your own evidence and arguments.

I need no evidence, your posts in this thread attacking someone who has a different opinion than you is all I need.  Not just here either, you troll any thread that is critical of the writing of Mass Effect and your only argument seems to be that people are whiners and complainers, rather than add any constructive reasoning as to why the ending is so great.  Again, go and rewatch the endings of Deus Ex, they are exactly the same.  Control, Destroy, Join.  Perhaps you need it put into those words so that you can understand?  I do not care less about escape from LA, nor do you have any reason to believe you have played Deus Ex to a deeper extent than I have.  But I'm done talking with you, troll on.

Modifié par Justin2k, 19 juillet 2012 - 01:33 .

[CoolioThane]

Justin2k "Everyone's free to have their opinion"

x "I have faith in Bioware"

Justin2k "You are DELUDED"

That's what I gathered from this thread really. I look at threads like these, and I look back to the IT thread and think "You know what...I'm glad I'm an ITer, I'm glad I have faith in people and in Bioware." IT is, in my opinion, the best way the series can go. You can hate on me for thinking so, but it doesn't matter.

I believe if IT is to come true, the OP will look incredibly stupid...like incredibly so, and it will be hilarious. If IT is not true, then at least I'm still happy with my headcanon