19 réponses à ce sujet

[RobotXYZ]

Please discuss when you use each...  Obviously Wall with the upgrade skill is good if you are getting knocked down.  Also discuss your progression ie how early do you push up to Wall (if you use that preferentially).  For instance I notice you may take other skills earlier if you do not take Wall so early.

[Loc'n'lol]

Personnally I just use the wall, like, all the time. The differences are too minor to justify switching between modes for me, and shield wall brings a good balance of benefits, plus the awesome knockdown immunity of course.

[Valcutio]

I only use shield wall against dragons. Defense for everything else.

[Nokturnal Lex]

Shield wall all the way, knockdown immunity on a tank is a must.

[borelocin]

I only use Wall. If I am setting tactics for a Tank I disable Defense.

[Alphakiller]

sword/board vs DW:



sword/board activates shield wall.

DW loses 5 damage per hit... and that's FAR more in terms of DPS.



answer seems obvious to me.

[I ReVaNChisT I]

shield wall, my defense rating usually high enough to evade a decent amount of blows and the insurance against knockdown effects can mean the difference between victory and defeat, the extra armor doesn't hurt either

[DragoonKain3]

Shield Wall against Ogres and Dragons, who love to knock you down repeatedly. Maybe wolves if you don't like being overwhelmed, but seriously, wolves die easily enough.

Shield Defense against everyone else. More defense and more damage, plus less upkeep. Superior to Wall because really, apart from those two monster types, you would rarely see knockdowns that it isn't worth the penalties to keep it up..

All assuming of course you're using a DEX tank. If for some reason you're running a CON tank, of course Wall is superior.

[Haplose]

Wall. Too much trouble to keep switching it. And getting knocked down is the greater evil.



I have Wynne set to cast Heroic Defence and Glyph of Warding on Alistair, so he basically never gets hit in melee with basic attacks anyway.

[Gecon]

Hmm never realized before Shield Defense offered better protection ... ? Now that gives me more options.



Always used Shield Wall before.

[Closet Gamer]

DragoonKain3 wrote...

Shield Wall against Ogres and Dragons, who love to knock you down repeatedly. Maybe wolves if you don't like being overwhelmed, but seriously, wolves die easily enough.
Shield Defense against everyone else. More defense and more damage, plus less upkeep. Superior to Wall because really, apart from those two monster types, you would rarely see knockdowns that it isn't worth the penalties to keep it up..
All assuming of course you're using a DEX tank. If for some reason you're running a CON tank, of course Wall is superior.

Knockdown Immunity does not protect you against Overwhelm, nothing in the game does.

Secondly, Shield Wall is superior to Shield Defense in almost every way.

Shield Wall:
Upkeep 55
+5 Armor
+10 Missile Defense
+10 Defense (Shield Mastery)
Knockdown Immunity (Shield Expertise)
-20% Damage dealt (that currently isn't working, you deal full damage with Shield Wall up.)

Shield Defense:
Upkeep 35
+15 Defense (Shield Mastery + Shield Expertise)
+5 Missile Defense
-5 Attack / Attack Penalty Removed (Shield Balance)

There's not even the slightest bit of comparison here. Pretty sure Shield Wall is meant to completely replace Shield Defense once it is fully upgraded, as proven by the above statistics.

If you're valuing 5 Defense over 5 Armor (a stat that cannot be upgraded via attributes) you've gone off the deep end.

Modifié par Closet Gamer, 18 décembre 2009 - 05:08 .

[Duck and Cover]

shield wall. And I was just going from the talent descriptions, the above post pretty much sums it up. It isn't just against knockdown, there are a large number of archers in this game. Why would you not want better defense against them?

[Valcutio]

Closet Gamer wrote...

DragoonKain3 wrote...

Shield Wall against Ogres and Dragons, who love to knock you down repeatedly. Maybe wolves if you don't like being overwhelmed, but seriously, wolves die easily enough.
Shield Defense against everyone else. More defense and more damage, plus less upkeep. Superior to Wall because really, apart from those two monster types, you would rarely see knockdowns that it isn't worth the penalties to keep it up..
All assuming of course you're using a DEX tank. If for some reason you're running a CON tank, of course Wall is superior.

Knockdown Immunity does not protect you against Overwhelm, nothing in the game does.

Secondly, Shield Wall is superior to Shield Defense in almost every way.

Shield Wall:
Upkeep 55
+5 Armor
+10 Missile Defense
+10 Defense (Shield Mastery)
Knockdown Immunity (Shield Expertise)
-20% Damage dealt (that currently isn't working, you deal full damage with Shield Wall up.)

Shield Defense:
Upkeep 35
+15 Defense (Shield Mastery + Shield Expertise)
+5 Missile Defense
-5 Attack / Attack Penalty Removed (Shield Balance)

There's not even the slightest bit of comparison here. Pretty sure Shield Wall is meant to completely replace Shield Defense once it is fully upgraded, as proven by the above statistics.

If you're valuing 5 Defense over 5 Armor (a stat that cannot be upgraded via attributes) you've gone off the deep end.

Only if you're ignoring that -20% damage dealt. Is there a dev post stating that it;s not working as intended?

[Rainen89]

Assuming your normal attacks are hitting for 50-60 20% is only knocking it off to 45-48. Not a huge nerf.

[Relshar]

Shield Wall all the way. A tank that can live longer will hold agro longer from my rogues and mages who do the DPS.



As for defence vs Overwhelm. Yes there is a defense against this. Its called Force Field from a mage. It can even save you if your in the mouth of a dragon. Cast it and watch the Dragon chew on your tank and take no damage from it.

[I ReVaNChisT I]

Rainen89 wrote...

Assuming your normal attacks are hitting for 50-60 20% is only knocking it off to 45-48. Not a huge nerf.

well the nerfed dmg dosnt seem to work, atleast not on the xbox, and for some reason it also sometimes needs no upkeep

[KariTR]

A con-based tank with some physical resistance gear is practically knock-down immune anyway. Shield Wall is only a must for me during the Loghain duel - it's the only time I know absolutely I turn it on; I dont use it as a tactic - and possibly during High Dragon fights, depending on how your characters' level/gear looks at the time you took them on.

[LynxAQ]

Well, call me a old school raider, but a tanks job is to tank and not deal damage. The way threat works in this game makes damage irrelevant once you have taunt.



Shield Wall even with -20% damage is far superior. I too also run with Wall up at all times.

[LynxAQ]

Relshar wrote...

Shield Wall all the way. A tank that can live longer will hold agro longer from my rogues and mages who do the DPS.

As for defence vs Overwhelm. Yes there is a defense against this. Its called Force Field from a mage. It can even save you if your in the mouth of a dragon. Cast it and watch the Dragon chew on your tank and take no damage from it.

People know about FF, but liek myself, alot of people stay away from that spell like the plague cause as far as we are concerned it trivilising alot of he game. If you need protection against grabs / overwhelm etc without cheesing the game, physical resistance is the way to go.

[DragoonKain3]

Force field has been nerfed. Don't see whats so wrong with it... :shrug:

If you're valuing 5 Defense over 5 Armor (a stat that cannot be upgraded via attributes) you've gone off the deep end.

Fact of the matter is, DEF runs on increasing returns the more you have of it. And if the enemy isn't going to consistently hit you (which applies to everyone apart from scattershot, spells, dragons, and ogres), it doesn't matter ONE WHIT what your armor is

As a theoritical example, would you rather evade 90% of attacks with Shield Wall, or evade 95% of attacks with Shield Defense? I certainly would choose the latter,  since all shield wall does is give you 5 damage reduction, while Shield Defense essentially DOUBLED your hp against melee hit rolls.

And seriously, for 'trash' battles, there is no point into needlessly prolonging the battle by hurting your dps. I dunno about the rest of you, but I like to keep these battle durations down to a minimum, so I can get to the next big battle faster. And with dagger being your weapon of choice, every damage point counts since it relies on its attack speed moreso than raw damage, so every point lost hurts more than you think due to enemy armor.

Of course, to those who can't be bothered switching between the two, just put on Shield Wall. But c'mon, dragons/ogres compose maybe 5% at best of the encounters you're going to face... not hard to switch it and back.