253 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKevinShow]

One thing that I've been thinking about for a while: in the first game, it was originally planned that Kaidan would be a possible romantic partner for MShep and Ashley for FShep. Obviously, that was dummied out.

Come Mass Effect 3, after Kaidan makes it clear that he has prior interest in women and is attracted to Liara in the first game, he can be a romantic partner for MShep. Ergo, he's bisexual. Why is it, then, that Ashley is not as well? Now, you could make the argument that it would be out-of-character for Ashley, but I'd counter with Kaidan being interested in MShep is out-of-character for him as well, because of the aforementioned attraction to women.

This isn't really consequential for me since my primary Shepard is with Liara from beginning to end, but I've been wondering about it.

[FahRENheit06]

A fair question with likely no satisfying answer.

At the end of the day, it was probably something as boring as: FemShep had 2 same sex options (Traynor and Liara) while DudeShep only had one (Cortez) so they threw Kaidan into that mix. Adding Ashley would have skewed FemShep with pretty much all same sex options and barely two opposite sex ones.

- Ren

[sammysoso]

Here's something I've yet to understand, people who want all the characters to be romantic options for all genders.

1. This isn't very realistic, the percentage of ******/bi-sexuals in the population is pretty low, and to have multiple people like that on the Normandy would be either a freak accident, or an obvious contrivance dreamed up by the writers

2. Characters work better/are more believable when they are established. Meaning they have a set personality, sexual orientation, philosophy...Otherwise they feel like a joke, just whatever the player wants them to be.

And to answer your question OP, Ash going for the ladies would be WAY out of character. It was also OOC for Kaidan, but you don't correct a wrong with another wrong so they balance out or something.

Just my opinion anyway, feel free to disagree

[AndreasShepard]

I don't want everyone in the game to be bi, it seems unrealistic but I think in the case of Kaidan and Ashley they should probably both have been made s/s options since it was supposed to be in the game to begin with (as recently confirmed by Mark Meer).  The option was probably nixed due to the whole fox news BS attention the game was getting and if that's the case I think allowing them to be available in ME3 would have really been doing their characters justice if it was the original plan all along.

But saying it's out of character for Kaidan to be bi just because he only mentioned being into a girl one time just doesn't make sense, if someone's bi they like girls and guys so bringing up an attraction to a female should make perfect sense, not serve to disprove the possibility.  The only reason someone might say it's out of character for Ashley is because she's religious but given that it's over a hundred years in the future I think societal viewpoints would have changed enough to the point where this wouldn't be as much of an issue. 

As to why Kaidan or Ashley never told you they were bi in ME1 I can think of a few decent reasons, not great ones but good enough to make the whole bisexual thing more of a non issue.  After all they didn't really know the commander all that well and were focused on the mission against Sovereign, there was also the whole military rank factor coming into play which could have kept them from making an advance on Shepard. However in ME3 a lot more time has passed and the impending end of the galaxy is reason enough to not hold back repressed feelings any longer.  During Kaidan's date scene he mentions this as being one of the reasons why he waited to start a romanctic relationship with Shepard while Shep later says he regretted being so focused on the mission so I think it played out quite nicely as a story, I'm sure they could have done something similar with Ashley.

Also on a side note didn't Kaidan say he wasn't into Liara in ME1?  Something about aliens not really being his thing.

Modifié par AndreasShepard, 19 juillet 2012 - 03:43 .

[sammysoso]

@AndreasShepard

Actually, Ash being religious wasn't my reasoning for bisexuality being OOC. Fairly early on in the game (forget exactly where) male Shepard has the opportunity for some light flirting, which she returns. FemShep does not do this, and Ash doesn't either. In fact, the same thing for Kaidan happens except in reverse, FemShep can flirt with him and BroShep cannot.

Going by previously established canon, Kaidan's bisexuality was OOC and if Ash had followed suit it would have been equally egregious.

Side note: Ashley is not actually religious, as she isn't a member of any particular denomination. Rather, she is a theist, simply believing in a higher power.

Modifié par sammysoso, 19 juillet 2012 - 03:43 .

[AndreasShepard]

sammysoso wrote...

Going by previously established canon, Kaidan's bisexuality was OOC and if Ash had followed suit it would have been equally egregious.

Until a character says "I am straight" there is no official cannon regarding what sexuality they are, just assumption.  Kaidan never said I am a complete and total 0 on the Kinsey scale.

Simply because someone of the same sex doesn't flirt with you right after meeting them doesn't mean it's out of their character to be bisexual.  Obviously the option for a heterosexual relationship in ME1 exists while a homosexual one does not but adding it in to a later game does not make it egregious in my opinion, especially since Kaidan never came across as a total womanizer, all he ever said to MShep was that there was a girl named Rana who he once cared for but never actually did anything with. Alenko is a shy, awkward, patient type of guy so it's not out of line for him to be reserved about possibly being into guys.
Can't speak as much for Ash since I'm not as familiar with her story.

Modifié par AndreasShepard, 19 juillet 2012 - 03:57 .

[sammysoso]

AndreasShepard wrote...

sammysoso wrote...

Going by previously established canon, Kaidan's bisexuality was OOC and if Ash had followed suit it would have been equally egregious.

. Alenko is a shy, awkward, patient type of guy so it's not out of line for him to be reserved about possibly being into guys.

I think you're looking at this using today's standards, where being into the same sex is something that you generally don't broadcast as much due to some people who are ****s about it.

In the future (according to Mass Effect) being gay or bi doesn't carry any stigma, there's no shame.

There would be no reason for Kaidan to hide being attracted to guys, since he already stated he was into girls. In Mass Effect's time, there's no difference

[AndreasShepard]

sammysoso wrote...

AndreasShepard wrote...

sammysoso wrote...

Going by previously established canon, Kaidan's bisexuality was OOC and if Ash had followed suit it would have been equally egregious.

. Alenko is a shy, awkward, patient type of guy so it's not out of line for him to be reserved about possibly being into guys.

I think you're looking at this using today's standards, where being into the same sex is something that you generally don't broadcast as much due to some people who are ****s about it.

In the future (according to Mass Effect) being gay or bi doesn't carry any stigma, there's no shame.

There would be no reason for Kaidan to hide being attracted to guys, since he already stated he was into girls. In Mass Effect's time, there's no difference

Actually there would be since in ME3 there is the lesbian woman at the citadel embassies who says she was disowned by her family for being gay so the stigma still exists though it would probably be much more normal since it's in the future. 

Though ultimately it's not about stigma, that's not the issue.  The issue here is that you're saying Kaidan can't be bi just because he didn't come onto Shepard from the get-go and that's just silly.  There were more reasons not to come onto Shepard in ME1 than there were to as I've already mentioned - military rank, the mission taking priority.  Having Alenko tell a MShep he has feelings in ME3 actually makes more sense.

The storyline with Kaidan and Femshep/MShep doesn't have to play out the same way to be considered legitimate.

Modifié par AndreasShepard, 19 juillet 2012 - 09:16 .

[sammysoso]

[quote]AndreasShepard
[/quote]

Actually there would be since in ME3 there is the lesbian woman at the citadel embassies who says she was disowned by her family for being gay so the stigma still exists though it would probably be much more normal since it's in the future. 

Though ultimately it's not about stigma, that's not the issue.  The issue here is that you're saying Kaidan can't be bi just because he didn't come onto Shepard from the get-go and that's just silly.  There were more reasons not to come onto Shepard in ME1 than there were to as I've already mentioned - military rank, the mission taking priority.  Having Alenko tell a MShep he has feelings in ME3 actually makes more sense.

[/quote]

If I recall correctly, the woman at the counter was disowned becuase she was in a relationship with an Asari, an alien, and that prejudice does exist. What I was saying was within humanity there's no shame in being gay or bisexual.

Kaidan does come onto Commander Shepard, the female one anyway, why would rank get in the way with male Shepard but not female Shepard?

I think it's great that BioWare included same-sex relationships for Shepard, what I don't like is that they retconed characterizations in ME1 to make it fit into ME3

Modifié par sammysoso, 19 juillet 2012 - 04:12 .

[AndreasShepard]

While it's possible that being with an asari was the cause of her family disowning her  neither one of us can say  exactly why since it wasn't elaborated on more. To me it seemed more like that line was included to impy that there is still some stigma existing.  It seems pretty unrealistic to me to think that just because it's the future suddenly everyone is ok with s/s relationships,  I'm sure there would still be some people who aren't comfortable with it, just like racism still exists today but on smaller levels.

And all I really have left to say about the whole Kaidan thing is I don't feel like any sort of retconning took place.  It's true that mshep cannot romance him in ME1, obviously they're not going to go back and change the whole game just to fix that.  But like I said just because you have the romance playing out differently with MShep doesn't make it any less valid. 

Shepard couldn't romance Tali or Garrus in ME1 but it isn't considered a retcon to have them available in the later games,  what Kaidan and femshep do in a game should have no bearing on the reality of the way things play out in a MShep/Kaidan playthrough.  It's just the same story playing out in a different way and that's what Mass Effect is all about.

Modifié par AndreasShepard, 19 juillet 2012 - 04:33 .

[sammysoso]

 You know, I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree

But hey, isn't good debate the point of these forums? 

[AndreasShepard]

/agreed

[dgcatanisiri]

sammysoso wrote...

Here's something I've yet to understand, people who want all the characters to be romantic options for all genders.

1. This isn't very realistic, the percentage of ******/bi-sexuals in the population is pretty low, and to have multiple people like that on the Normandy would be either a freak accident, or an obvious contrivance dreamed up by the writers

2. Characters work better/are more believable when they are established. Meaning they have a set personality, sexual orientation, philosophy...Otherwise they feel like a joke, just whatever the player wants them to be.

And to answer your question OP, Ash going for the ladies would be WAY out of character. It was also OOC for Kaidan, but you don't correct a wrong with another wrong so they balance out or something.

Just my opinion anyway, feel free to disagree

Well, you say feel free to disagree, so I'm going to have to.

Counter to point 1: We're playing a game about aliens, FTL travel, and saving the galaxy, playing a character who is literally brought back from death, and Dragon Age, which did the all bi LI's thing, is a fantasy setting with elves, dwarves, and qunari living side by side with humanity. Is anyone here really playing these games for their realistic quality, for the fact that they are true to life? 'Realism' takes a backseat to what makes the story entertaining, which is having choices for love interests if you're so inclined. The story drives what we do - if you play ME1 as a xenophobic humans-first, aliens-never character, Liara will still recover Shepard's body, being unable to live in a world without Shepard, and Garrus and Tali are perfectly willing to join the team, even though Shepard was a complete jackass to them. That's not realistic, but the word 'realistic' only seems to come out in regards to LI's being open to either gender.

Counter to point 2: Characters also work better by having strongly defined romance and friendship paths - the example that always comes to my mind is that Dawn Star in Jade Empire will share annecdotes of her past with the Spirit Monk if the SM is female, but instead she keeps asking male SM's for comfort. She is closer to a 'joke' character that way, because her entire personality and character arc with a male SM revolves around his interest in her. By having the romance options available for both genders, they also receive character development if they are or are not being romanced because there has to be content for anyone who closes out of their romance early. Even if not romanced, all the LI's in DA2 had their stories and their involvement.

Counter to point 3: It's not out of character for either character, actually. She tells male Shepards that getting involved with a fellow officer is a violation of regs, and female Shepard's dialogue doesn't allow for direct flirting, so she has no way of knowing that a female Shepard is interested in her in the first game. If Shepard's dialogue doesn't allow an expression, the characters can't react to it. Same with Kaidan - the options available for us the player in ME1 when he asks if Shepard's interested in Liara are 'are you?' or 'I am.' Shepard can't say 'I'm interested in you' or 'I'm only interested in men.' And all three, Shepard, Ashley, and Kaidan, are military officers - it's already against the regs, so it's frowned on their involvement. There's a reason they only take that step on the way to Ilos, after the rest of the game builds it up - by that point, if they're wrong, they're going to military prison, and if they're right but can't stop Saren, they're dead. It's a 'now or never' kind of thing. But it's after both parties making it clear that there is interest, interest that the options available to the player do not allow to be expressed.

Kaidan, meanwhile, has NO difference in dialogue to romanced/non-romanced/male/female Shepard on Horizon, where he compares losing Shepard to losing a limb, indicating deep feelings for Shepard, regardless of gender. And then, with the near-death experience on Mars, he talks about how he wants to be with someone he cares about. He doesn't say 'a man' or 'a woman.' 'Someone.' As someone who played the pronoun game prior to coming out, let me tell you, the word choice matters.

EDIT: As brought up below, there are differences, but the major one is that Kaidan tells a Shepard who romanced him 'I loved you' and tells a Shepard who didn't 'it was like losing a limb,' indicating feeling that run deep, ones that, while not necessarily romantic on their own, have the potential to become something more.

The condensed version of the point 3 counter is: "Neither Ashley nor Kaidan explicitly say that they are gay, straight, or bi in the course of ME1, 2, or 3, therefore it shouldn't be assumed that they are any of the above by default."

Modifié par dgcatanisiri, 19 juillet 2012 - 11:02 .

[dgcatanisiri]

OneWomanArmy wrote...

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Kaidan, meanwhile, has NO difference in dialogue to romanced/non-romanced/male/female Shepard on Horizon, where he compares losing Shepard to losing a limb, indicating deep feelings for Shepard, regardless of gender.

NOT TRUE!

So noted. Pardon my misrememberance, been a while since I actually played a female Shepard, had forgotten. So, the MAJOR difference of dialogue is between 'I loved you' and 'losing you was like losing a limb,' still indicating deep feelings for Shepard regardless of gender.

So the core point I was trying to make remains.

[dgcatanisiri]

No. I do not serve and have not served in the military. I am merely saying here that Kaidan has deep feelings for Shepard regardless of gender - I'm not explicitly stating that they are romantic feelings, just the kind that run deep and, under the right set of circumstances, could BECOME romantic.

[BadExamp1e]

Both of them were clearly never intended to be Bisexual love interests from the start (ME1). It was even stated by a Dev ages ago, so whoever said that they were - is wrong. I guess Bioware just decided to turn Kaidan bisexual because they could and it also gave another option for gay Shepard's. A lot of people think Ashley being bisexual is OOC, and I'm one of those people. At least Bioware sat down and thought about the characters and their backgrounds before making the decision. It would work for Kaidan, not so much Ash.

[Sundance31us]

If you don't buy Kaidan the alcohol and don't ask him about his biotics the romance dialogue will not trigger.

His sexual preference is directly controlled by choices made by the player, so I really don't see what the issues is.

[AndreasShepard]

BadExamp1e wrote...

Both of them were clearly never intended to be Bisexual love interests from the start (ME1). It was even stated by a Dev ages ago, so whoever said that they were - is wrong.

If Mark Meer says that they were supposed to be bisexual in ME1 then I'm inclined to believe it.  There's not really anyone who would know better than him.
It's seems much more clear that the option was nixed due to mounting controversy surrounding the game's sex scenes.

Modifié par AndreasShepard, 19 juillet 2012 - 11:30 .

[Sundance31us]

AndreasShepard wrote...

If Mark Meer says that they were supposed to be bisexual in ME1 then I'm inclined to believe it.  There's not really anyone who would know better than him.
It's seems much more clear that the option was nixed due to mounting controversy surrounding the game's sex scenes.

Mass Effect Male Shepard/Kaidan Romance Part 1

Mass Effect Male Shepard/Kaidan conversation

Mass Effect - Female Shepard & Ashley Romance

[Sundance31us]

OneWomanArmy wrote...
Okay I lied! Those dont count! They are mods!

Even if they were real, they were not in the game!

You're missing the point. The lines were written and read by both Meer and Hale, so the idea that "Both of them were clearly never intended to be Bisexual love interests from the start (ME1)" isn't correct. They were intended to be available love interests if the player wished to trigger the dialogue, but this option wasn't included in the final game.