253 réponses à ce sujet

[Quething]

Where's that "oh look, it's this thread again" gif?

[CptData]

We were flirting *innocent smile*
Okay, reducing it a bit.

OWA - you may be surprised, but I never did the army stuff ...
Dun dun dun dunnnnn ...

I quit already ^^

[Quething]

OneWomanArmy wrote...

Quething wrote...

Where's that "oh look, it's this thread again" gif?

Care to explain what you are talking about?

Every few weeks somebody posts a thread saying "wait why wasn't Ashley bi?" And every single time the same set of people show up to go "lol because it would be so out of character you idiot" and "omg realism some people are straight you idiot" and the same other set of people show up to go "wtf are you anti-biAsh idiots talking about your arguments are just wrong and you should feel bad." 

It's not exactly a secret which set of idiots I belong to but I've been around this particular merry-go-round enough times that I've come to the point of rolling my eyes and pointing and laughing at the other guys instead of getting involved in the fight. So that was me, rolling my eyes.

[BadExamp1e]

Well then off you go. Ash is straight and likes her dudes, and Kaidan is supposedly bisexual now. Just leave it at that. That's the canon, the real deal ect.

[Ferretinabun]

sammysoso wrote...
1. This isn't very realistic, the percentage of ******/bi-sexuals in the population is pretty low, and to have multiple people like that on the Normandy would be either a freak accident, or an obvious contrivance dreamed up by the writers

This argument is the weaker one. The point of having 'everyone bisexual' is that you, the player, can choose who to have a romance with, regardless of gender. If characters don't state their sexuality definitively then you can pick a hetero romance and assume everyone is straight if you like. That'd work perfectly fine. And even if you picked a gay romance you could just assume that this was the one and only gay/bi character in the game. This would, of course, rely on everyone not explicitly stating their sexuality, a la DA2 (baring Isabela, who was always bi by canon anyway)...

2. Characters work better/are more believable when they are established. Meaning they have a set personality, sexual orientation, philosophy...Otherwise they feel like a joke, just whatever the player wants them to be.

This is the better argument. A person's sexual orientation can be a very significant part of their character. I'm thinking largely about DA:O where the fact that two of your companions were specifically bisexual brought depth to who they were and their outlooks on the world.

Modifié par Ferretinabun, 19 juillet 2012 - 11:03 .

[TheKevinShow]

Quething wrote...

Where's that "oh look, it's this thread again" gif?

I'm sorry, I don't read this forum all the time. I wasn't aware that the topic had already been done.

[CHALET]

It's a double edged sword. 

"Everyone is bi" feels less plausable, at the same time there's less arguments about gender-specifics and the people who wish X person was romancable are happy-ish. BioWare also score brownie points from the LGBS community for being 'open minded'.

"Some are straight, some are gay, some are bi" feels a lot more realistic. Not everybody is gay in real life, not everybody is straight. My issue with this though is that you get characters like Steve where their whole character arc is "did we mention he's gay yet?", rather thanTraynor who feels much more realistic since you never actually discover her sexuality unless you romance her.

I dunno really. Suspension of disbelief can only go so far, like with Dragon Age 2.

Modifié par CHALET, 20 juillet 2012 - 02:45 .

[BioWareM0d13]

Probably because they (wisely) did not want to go the Dragon Age 2 route, and have every character on the team's sexual preference(s) be flexible. While that model does a good job of pandering, it does a poor job of creating realistic characters.

Just like the real world some people should be straight, some people should be bi, and some should be homosexual. In that I think Mass Effect 3 got it right in that characters have defined sexual interests and aren't Sheparsexual. Straight characters are only open to the opposite sex and homosexual characters are only interested in the same sex, just like the real world.

Although not related to sexual preference I should probably mention Samara here as well. I'm glad ME3 also did not cave in to some fan demands and make her romanceable to Shepards of either gender. Doing that would have completely ruined her character, and one of her better scenes in Mass Effect 2.

[Mimitochan]

TheKevinShow wrote...

One thing that I've been thinking about for a while: in the first game, it was originally planned that Kaidan would be a possible romantic partner for MShep and Ashley for FShep. Obviously, that was dummied out.

Come Mass Effect 3, after Kaidan makes it clear that he has prior interest in women and is attracted to Liara in the first game, he can be a romantic partner for MShep. Ergo, he's bisexual. Why is it, then, that Ashley is not as well? Now, you could make the argument that it would be out-of-character for Ashley, but I'd counter with Kaidan being interested in MShep is out-of-character for him as well, because of the aforementioned attraction to women.

This isn't really consequential for me since my primary Shepard is with Liara from beginning to end, but I've been wondering about it.

I would answer "supply and demand"? Or fanservice.

I guess Kaidan was always the popular character with gay mSheps, whereas Ashley, not so much with gay femSheps? I'm just guessing here from things I've read here.

Also writing and executing several romance paths for one character is a lot more expensive than just doing only one. So making Ash go bi/lesbian/whatever wouldn't have been very cost effective, as far as marketing can be cost effective.

The thing is, unfortunately, Kaidan & Ashley have become difficult characters to handle development wise, but Kaidan even more so because of his new "status". A word on this > I honestly don't know how to define Kaidan sexual identity/status/preferences/whatever today, he was 100% straight to me from ME1/ME2, but in ME3, honestly, I don't have a clue, I just don't know how to define his character anymore, it just annoys me to some great amounts as a player and a sexual being but that's OK, end of parathensis.

The Kaidan romance arc got very complicated with all the variables to handle: mShep vs. femShep, romanced in ME1 or not, faithful or not, ME newbies, etc. This really shows unfortunately. Of course there are actual differences in all those different combinations, but I would have been so much happier with less romance options throughout the game (I'm really thinking about ME2 love interests here, but also Garrus and Tali to some amounts), i.e. a limited number of options, designed for each sexual targets, but well written and detailed. This led to some strange moments when you feel Kaidan is just your buddy, when he's supposed to have "loved you through all this years", or just the other way around, etc.

@Andreas, THAT would have done the characters real justice. Actually, I'd rather Kaidan had been 100% gay from ME1 - even though I would have had my femShep got drunk every night until the end of the Galaxy and just cursed her mother for not eating more carrots, but hey, guess what, as a straight female gamer, I am SO used to NOT having any real romanceable options in a video game - we're all on the same boat here - than this sudden change of character in ME3. Unless he had been intendedly been written that way, as a character who is unsure about his sexual preferences, that would have been something totally different. 

So about Ashley, yeah, the most obvious reason I can think of is that fans didn't ask for it enough, or were not loud enough about it, or that  the target audience wasn't big enough to make the project cost effective. Also, sometimes, inside a project, it just takes one very persuasive person to get things done. Collegial decision making is complicated, corporate decision making too. That's how decisions are made in any industry. PS.: I'm just sensing the whole ME precisely lacked a real creation director btw, but that's another subject.

On a more personal note, as a gamer and as a woman, I would have found it natural that Ash was into women. Religious or not, "racist" or not (I never thought she was). As a gamer, because I'm used to games reflecting actual straight male fantasies - lesbian romances are generally intended to them. As a woman because ME1 is remarkable at depicting characters who feel real, and well, Ash kind of felt realistic as a strong woman who just go where her preferences would carry her. Also, I had some hints about Shepard becoming some sort of figure who's there to make her open her mind about things in general, aliens, and also, why not, sexuality. 

Modifié par Mimitochan, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:17 .

[CptData]

OneWomanArmy wrote...

CptData wrote...

We were flirting *innocent smile*
Okay, reducing it a bit.

OWA - you may be surprised, but I never did the army stuff ...
Dun dun dun dunnnnn ...

I quit already ^^

How could you!!! Lol I did say I was a civilian right? I used to be a soldier and train all the time but that was in my younger days and I had to quit but I don't mind slowing it down now that I am old... Just don't call me "ma'am" and we are good ;-)

Yes ma'am.
And you aren't old. Otherwise I'm old. Or a lot of my friends are old. And Kaidan is also old since he's 35 or so. Shepard is in his/her thirties as well.

Don't call 'em old.

I'll be old when I'm dead.


(Bet someone calls this flirting). Sorry for hijacking the thread again. Not sure about PMs ^^

[draken-heart]

Maybe ash is bi-sexual, but only when drunk, and as such cannot be romanced by Fem!Shepard due to her not normally drinking.

Alcohol can make some lose their inhibitions and sleep with anything with 2 legs.

[Beep Il]

OneWomanArmy wrote...

This exactly! I would rather have had him be gay or bi what ever from the beginning and never knowing him as straight than the sudden change in sexuality.

He was in the closet in ME1. That's how I've always thought.
And... I'm talking about my own experience. Some of my friends still think I'm straight since I act like a "normal" person would act. Much like Kaidan in ME1.

[Mimitochan]

Beep Il wrote...

OneWomanArmy wrote...

This exactly! I would rather have had him be gay or bi what ever from the beginning and never knowing him as straight than the sudden change in sexuality.

He was in the closet in ME1. That's how I've always thought.
And... I'm talking about my own experience. Some of my friends still think I'm straight since I act like a "normal" person would act. Much like Kaidan in ME1.

Hey, there's Luciano!
I know, I read that a lot, and that's complicated, I'm really trying to put my Shep's and my personal feelings aside here, I'm really talking about Kaidan as a designed video game character, a written personality, not as a real life person. When I say he was "100% straight from ME1/ME2", that's just some straightforward assertion coming from the fact that he was not romanceable by mShep, that's really all there is to it. Wouldn't you have been happy to have a full gay Kaidan romance arc instead of just half of it, or half modded, half "real"?
 
I take what game developers give me as a player. I expect them to clearly tell me who Kaidan is. 
If not, what's the point? 
A well written character, with a precise intent as a video game feature, doesn't make it less interesting, or poorer imagination grounds, quite the contrary!

@Beep, and others, BW is really lucky to have such well intended fans as you. But I can agree that that's really not important at all. What's important is lovely Kaidan. End of story.  

OneWomanArmy wrote...

How do you change your avatar? I want to change mine too!!!!!

Edit: I mean to an avatar that is not from Bioware...

Just search for this blog here about uploading a custom avatar on BSN. You'd need to install a Dragon Age character tool. It's not really official, but it's tolerated as long as the avatars are not too off topic I think.

Modifié par Mimitochan, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:46 .

[CptData]

draken-heart wrote...

Maybe ash is bi-sexual, but only when drunk, and as such cannot be romanced by Fem!Shepard due to her not normally drinking.

Alcohol can make some lose their inhibitions and sleep with anything with 2 legs.

Dunno. I don't turn out bi when drunk, I'm 100% straight. Guess Ash is one of those girls who simply don't want to go into serious business with another woman?

It's funny to think about it headcanonwise and I play a lot with that idea, but for "serious" headcanon, my Ashley is straight, interested in Shepard only. She's, however, a good friend of Tali and a close one for Samantha.

OneWomanArmy wrote...

@Data

Nooo dont call me "ma'am"! And you can pm...

Do you prefer "Sir", Ma'am? ^^
Sure can do.

Modifié par CptData, 20 juillet 2012 - 08:49 .

[LanceSolous13]

sammysoso wrote...

Here's something I've yet to understand, people who want all the characters to be romantic options for all genders.

1. This isn't very realistic, the percentage of ******/bi-sexuals in the population is pretty low, and to have multiple people like that on the Normandy would be either a freak accident, or an obvious contrivance dreamed up by the writers

2. Characters work better/are more believable when they are established. Meaning they have a set personality, sexual orientation, philosophy...Otherwise they feel like a joke, just whatever the player wants them to be.

And to answer your question OP, Ash going for the ladies would be WAY out of character. It was also OOC for Kaidan, but you don't correct a wrong with another wrong so they balance out or something.

Just my opinion anyway, feel free to disagree

Erm....I should like to point of the fact that this is over a hundred years into the future and there is also no stigma over homosexuality by then. Humanity has a huge population and even then, precentages change.

Also, Sexual Identity is something that isn't is set in stone. Its something that changes all the time in a persons life. I'm not saying that someone will change their identity every othe week but jump five years from now (or 3 in Shepard's case) and people will change.

Ashley just happens to be completely hetrosexual. Is that really a big deal? Kaidan had a change of interests between ME1 and ME3. As much as they share the same role, They do not share the same character.

[BadExamp1e]

Thing is, there is no attraction or interest there from Ashley if you play as a female, so why would you enter a relationship without those things? As a male she makes her attraction and interest known from the start.... "that would be a waste of a fine ass sir" "when we're not on duty I'd have to show you some of my dance moves...sir" "awfully romantic up here commander, if you're into that sort of thing." "I see a strong passionate man with a great ass." "if you want me in a tin foil mini skirt and thigh high boots I'm gonna need dinner first ugh... Sir."

Honestly, just because Kaidan is bisexual now doesn't mean Ash should be. They are not the same. And I'm glad they mainly got treated like different people.

I would have preferred it if Bioware kept him straight, but whatever. IMO, the romance was poorly done. It all comes out of the closet at the dinner date, it's like, "You and me? Woah I've never thought about that before. You and me? Really Kaidan bro? I never even - sure." despite the player carefully pursuing him the whole game lol.