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[Lastrights]

Alister says it him self he has either been resented or coddled his entire life. As party leader it is your responsibility to man the boy up. Being overly sensitive to the guy makes him a whimp berate him a little and open his eyes he mans up.

[DariusKalera]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

I know I'm gonna get a lot of flack for this post but welp here goes lol... Alistair has got to be the biggest wimp I've ever come across for playing a game... The servant at the beginning in the Cousland attack has more guts then Alistair lol... (By the way before I get yelled at by a lot of ladies because I'm dissin Alistair, I'm one myself lmao.)  Don't get me wrong I love the sweet sensitive kind of guy but my gosh does he even have a backbone. Reason I'm saying all this is because of a conversation between him n Shale.

Shale: I find it very odd.
Alistair: "It" meaning me? Am I an "it", now, too? I feel honored.
Shale: For one who professes to be a warrior, I find it remarkably weak-willed and indecisive.
Alistair: Er... thank you?
Shale: It also like to hide its many weakness behind a veil of jocularity.
Alistair: For a statue, you know a lot of big words.
Shale: is there a reason it enjoys following others so much?  Especially when it is in a position to lead.
Alistair: Have you ever been responsible for someone else's life? Or a lot of other lives? Or an entire nation?
Shale: Of course not.
Alistair: Then... shut... up.
Shale: I will remember this moment when the birds come.


N it's not just this convo but there are other's that he has that he sounds like a gutless whinny lil boy.  And this is who were suppose to put on the throne.  Ya you have the option to harden him up but it doesn't really change his dialogue much.  Don't get me wrong I love Alistair but dang couldn't he of been made with just a little bit of backbone, he's suppose to be a Templar and a Grey Warden for petes sake and not to mention the heir to the throne lol.  Pretty sad when your other party members think the same thing lol.  But it sounds like Cailan might of been the same way too, especially if Anora was the true ruler... Poor Maric had two sons that didn't know how to be men lol...  He must be rolling in his grave of shame. 

Please be gentle in your criticism   lmao

Now I have a few questions.  (No, Im not bashing Alistair yet.)

1:  That dialogue, does it take place before or after Shale gets her memory back?  I am assuming that it is before becuase, if it is after, then Shale does know what it is like to be responsible for an entire nation.

2:  When Alistair is asking about the person, people, or nation thing, is he refering to the battle at Ostagar where the Warden's and other soldiers died or is there another time in his life that he is placed in charge and it turned out badly and scarred him? 

I would guess that he is referring to Ostagar here, but i could be wrong.  Even if he is, by the time that this convo would have taken place, he and the PC would have known that the "failure" at Ostagar was the fault of Loghain and not that of Alistair or the PC. 

But, in truth, throughout the entire game, from when the PC first meets him all the way up to the Landsmeet, Alistair has no responsibility other than leading your small group through the Wilds before the joining.  So, him asking this question of Shale is kind of erroneous since he has no idea what that responsibility feels like.  He is only guessing.

[Rainen89]

I think he's referring to him not wanting to be in charge of the lives of the party. (Like the PC is) Or the lives of Ferelden, as king. Since early on it's hinted you will be putting forth Alistair as king, at least at first unless you decide to usurp, or pass it off to Anora.

[syllogi]

NOTE:  I am drinking a nice bottle of wine a client gave me for xmas, so beyond posting macros, I should not be trusted.  But ANYWAY...

[quote]LynxAQ wrote...
I disagree Baher of Glory. Alistair is a very delusioned person who seems to be very clingy. He is like getting chewing gum in your hair, you just cant get rid of it. He seems to act like Grey Wardens are honourable etc, but they not. Grey Wardens do and recruit anything it takes to win. Duncan makes this abundantly clear yet Alistair is first person to jump ship when you want to put Loghain through the joining.[quote]

Where does the game tell you that Grey Wardens ALWAYS do ANYTHING to get the job done?  As far as I can see, committing to the Joining does NOT take away your free will (see: Alistair when your crazy ass recruits Loghain).  Genevieve in in The Calling acts in generally an honorable way, despite her plight.  Duncan does NOT act like some crazy man who will take in any hobo who wants to join, but somehow the Loghain fanboys believe that this is what he's doing.
 
[quote]LynxAQ wrote...
Not to mention he cries and whinges the whole time about not wanting to be king and then at the moment you wont execute Loghain, suddenly he wants to be king for his own vengeance. Wimpy and out for himself imo. Off with his head![quote]

BOO HOO!!!  A sane member of your party remembers that Loghain is a traitor who killed the son of his best friend and love of his life, poisoned or tortured nobles who disagreed with him, enslaved citizens for no other reason than avarice, and KILLED and TORTURED any Grey Wardens he had access to.  OMG!!!  What was he thinking???  Surely he should have been psychic, crazy, or evil, like your character and just KNOWN that Loghain wouldn't just KILL YOU once you forgave him.  BECAUSE SANE PEOPLE KNOW THAT LOGHAIN SHOULD BETRAY YOU, BASED ON HIS PAST ACTIONS.  WTF, what is wrong with you, stop letting that psycho feed your dog cheese and smoked ham, you IDIOT.

[quote]LynxAQ wrote...
I would of settled with a hanging... pity we dont get to see him die. Would of been satisfying. At least I get to say "Its abou time." when Anora calls for his execution.[quote]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[quote]LynxAQ wrote...
What amazes me about that scene is that he acts surprised with me when almost the entire time he has been in my party I have had him at -100 rep and always done everything he disagrees with, now suddenly hes surprised... odd.[/quote]

Guess he just doesn't understand CRAZY.  Sorry bro, he's just too normal for you.

[LynxAQ]

I liekd the boxes TeenZombie - what wine btw?

[DariusKalera]

Rainen89 wrote...

I think he's referring to him not wanting to be in charge of the lives of the party. (Like the PC is) Or the lives of Ferelden, as king. Since early on it's hinted you will be putting forth Alistair as king, at least at first unless you decide to usurp, or pass it off to Anora.

If that is the case, then he has no call in lecturing Shale on it since he has no idea what it is like to actually lead. 

[LynxAQ]

To reply to your part about saying where does it say Grey Wardens do anything to win. Cant believe you missed the dozens of times it is mentioned. The weird part is even Alistair mentions it when you do something he doesnt even agree with, yet is ready to jump ship when you recruit Loghain.



The intro says it, Duncan says it when you ask him about the grey wardens. Sophia Dryden says it etc etc. Cant remember the names and every cut scene that mentions it, but it is jammed down you alot in the game.



Tho it is fun watching him have his tantrum in the nude. First time the bastard walked off with all my good tank stuff! I was wiser the next time round. OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!



Support Loghain people - you know it is right! Then we can all get marshmellows and roast them in the fire as Alistair burns on a stake.

[Drunkencelt]

I love how people make justifications and excuses for Allistar( and Lelaine) all day but condemn Morrigan in a heart beat.



He does not want responsibility under any costs. Does this make him a wimp? I don't really think so, a lot of people feel this way. It is certainly can be easily considered cowardly though. You have to enjoy Allistars good points and pretend hes "never scared". '



the lines about it just being his nature, and how he was raised is all bs. He goes against this argument numerous times, especialy when Loghain's head or Arl Emon is involved.

[syllogi]

LynxAQ wrote...

I liekd the boxes TeenZombie - what wine btw?

Cabernet Sauvignon, but of course.   And frankly, I have no idea how this forum works, so the boxes are not my doing. 

[Thor Rand Al]

Please don't get me wrong about Alistair. Physically Alistairs got guts, he's wicked with his fighting, he's the first 1 who's attacking the enemies, he does offer to take the final blow with the archdemon. As far as emotionally though he needs to get a tad tougher.... I understand he's been through a lot, his whole lifes been a disappointment but wouldn't that make him tougher. It just seems like it made him softer n not stronger. I didn't say I hated Alistair, I said I love him, he's an excellent companion, friend but he does need to get just a tad stronger emotionally.

[Hound of Culain]

LynxAQ wrote...

Landsmeet does nothing but expose Alistair for what he really is. A coward with dis-illusioned view on Grey Wardens, and only out for his personal vengeance. He even suddenly wants the crown if you refuse to kill Loghain just so he can have Loghain executed. No other reason.

A coward? Not at all. Imagine for a moment the PC proposes, instead of letting Loghain live, that the entire population of the country be fed given to the darkspawn, the men to be eaten and the women turned into broodmothers. The exact same actions would then be entirely appropriate. Where he goes wrong is not in the actions he takes but his reasons for thinking them necessary. He has his priorities completely wrong, as I think you are also saying. On that we agree. But a coward? Not for me.

I brought up the Landsmeet because the OP called Alistair a wimp for allowing the PC to take the lead. Well the Landsmeet shows that, if he becomes convinced that the PC is not fit to lead, then he will take a stand for what he believes is right, even if it means doing something he truly doesn't want to. That's not selfish; it's the exact opposite. And it's not wimpy either.

[LynxAQ]

I like Red Wines, a little late (or early you could say I suppose) tho for me to start drinking wine (1:33 in the morning now here). Enjoy!

[syllogi]

LynxAQ wrote...
To reply to your part about saying where does it say Grey Wardens do anything to win. Cant believe you missed the dozens of times it is mentioned. The weird part is even Alistair mentions it when you do something he doesnt even agree with, yet is ready to jump ship when you recruit Loghain.

Again, where does the game say that Grey Wardens lose their free will?  Because I did not see it at all.  Grey Wardens will do what it takes to win against the Blight, but that does NOT mean that they have no honor or free will.   Again, see The Calling and Genevieve's actions.

LynxAQ wrote...
The intro says it, Duncan says it when you ask him about the grey wardens. Sophia Dryden says it etc etc. Cant remember the names and every cut scene that mentions it, but it is jammed down you alot in the game.

LynxAQ wrote...
Tho it is fun watching him have his tantrum in the nude. First time the bastard walked off with all my good tank stuff! I was wiser the next time round. OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!

k, umm, whatever gets you off...

LynxAQ wrote...
Support Loghain people - you know it is right! Then we can all get marshmellows and roast them in the fire as Alistair burns on a stake.

Yes, support Loghain, if you love slavery of your own citizens, murder of innocent nobles in their beds, poisoning of anyone who disagrees with you, and the death and torture of any Grey Wardens who dare to enter Ferelden!!!  YAY BLIGHT!!!  VOTE LOGHAIN, VOTE FOR THE TOTAL DESTRUCTION OF FERELDEN!!!

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Lynx you mentioned Anora doing the charge speech, is that just the one in the landsmeet or if you ditch alastair does she also do the one on the way to denerim? Please tell me she doesn't do the 'final battle' one too if you kick alastair, I find it hard listening to her landsmeet one, I can't imagine her doing the final battle one!

It should be Loghain!

Edit: Yes support Loghain whom if it hadn't have been for him and Cailan's dad all the human nobles would probably be either commoners or speaking with an orlesian accent. How come everyone always remembers the negatives more so than the positives?

Modifié par Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien, 18 décembre 2009 - 01:56 .

[syllogi]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Edit: Yes support Loghain whom if it hadn't have been for him and Cailan's dad all the human nobles would probably be either commoners or speaking with an orlesian accent. How come everyone always remembers the negatives more so than the positives?

UMM...because the PC has only experienced Loghain trying to KILL him or her???  Because obviously Loghain is no longer the Hero of the River Dane, and is certified KER-AZY by the time the PC meets him?

[LynxAQ]

Yeah the speech that Alistair normally does if you kill Loghain, just before you run into the city gates. You know the whole speech about "For Fereldan!!!" where they say this warden has got us here etc etc.



It is SOOO cringeworthy and BAD. I closed my eyes, I felt embarrassed... Loghain so should have done it and not Anora.

[ozenglish]

LynxAQ wrote...

Yeah the speech that Alistair normally does if you kill Loghain, just before you run into the city gates. You know the whole speech about "For Fereldan!!!" where they say this warden has got us here etc etc.

It is SOOO cringeworthy and BAD. I closed my eyes, I felt embarrassed... Loghain so should have done it and not Anora.

Sorry, at least Anora sounded hot when she made that horrible speech lol..

[DariusKalera]

Tassiaw wrote...

Alistair is brave and noble, but he prefers to defer to others for leadership. When thrust into the role, he does his duty to the best of his abilities. I fail to see how that qualifies as being a wimp.

He actively avoids leadership.  If it was thrust upon him, I can not seem him taking it up.

Now, be honest, can anyone see Alistair stepping up and taking over the position of leader if the PC died?

If he tried, I think Sten and Dog would growl, Ogren would belch, Morrigan would laugh in his face, Leliana would tell him in the nicest way possible that she would prefer it if someone else were to lead, Shale would say "Oh, now you want to lead?", and Wynne would have him stand on the other side of camp with his stinky feet.

In short, I think he lacks the strength of personality to lead. 

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

LynxAQ wrote...

Yeah the speech that Alistair normally does if you kill Loghain, just before you run into the city gates. You know the whole speech about "For Fereldan!!!" where they say this warden has got us here etc etc.

It is SOOO cringeworthy and BAD. I closed my eyes, I felt embarrassed... Loghain so should have done it and not Anora.

And she still wearing her noble robe?

*Suddenly feels like doing a "Vader/Luke" scene*

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Ok least I now know to cut through that scene on such playthroughs.

I blame it on the character, because I think the person whom voiced her also does the voice for Isabella and I liked the voice she did for that, it was fairly similar but had just enough of a difference to make her sound more believably bad ass. Going on I know how bad Anora sounds when doing the earlier speech in the Landsmeet (again pales in comparison to Alastair's version) I dread to think what the 'city gate charge' speech sounds like.

This though is the main reason that whilst Alastair can be a real wimp, he seems to really pull it together for that last bit. Its like someone gives him a whole new set of balls at the end of the Landsmeet

[kormesios]

So roughly:



1) Alistair lets me take charge: evidence he's a wimp

2) Alistair whines when he doesn't like my decisions: evidence he's a wimp

3) I whine about Alistair whining: evidence Alistair's a wimp.

4) I whine about Alistair not making a decision: evidence Alistair's a wimp

5) Alistair makes a decision about Loghain and doesn't back down: *Proof* Alistair's a wimp.







The man's got physical courage, plus the personal grit to carry on after the betrayal (play the post-Ostagar dialog as utterly discouraged, and watch Alistair refuse to give up, if you don't believe that.) He's not cut out by desire or temperament to be a leader, but will suck it up if required to. Like other party members with far more experience the him or you (Sten or Wynne) he recognizes that you've got those qualities and defer to you.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah he's a wimp because he doesn't like the idea of being responsible for people's lives and deaths.
It turns out not everybody is going to be the instant hero, especially not someone who's had his self-esteem smashed so many times like Alistair.

This whole alpha male attitude is really getting on my nerves.

As an alpha male, I agree with you. Quite irritating and no, I'm not being sarcastic. The internet tough guy squad calling Alistair a wimp galls me to no end.

[sleepy__head]

Actually, as a general rule, those who don't seek powers are FAR more suitable for it than those who actively court it.

[kormesios]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...
As an alpha male, I agree with you. Quite irritating and no, I'm not being sarcastic. The internet tough guy squad calling Alistair a wimp galls me to no end.

I think that nails my opinion.  Not your own alpha-maleness, which I can't comment on.  The second part.
Alistair is a competent, tough, and generally loyal follower who will occasionally disagree, but overall perform whatever role you want him to, with the single exception of the Loghain execution.
Real leaders might or might not like such a person, but they do not whine about people like that.  They appreciate them.  

[InverseReality]

LynxAQ wrote...

I disagree Baher of Glory. Alistair is a very delusioned person who seems to be very clingy. He is like getting chewing gum in your hair, you just cant get rid of it. He seems to act like Grey Wardens are honourable etc, but they not. Grey Wardens do and recruit anything it takes to win. Duncan makes this abundantly clear yet Alistair is first person to jump ship when you want to put Loghain through the joining.

LoL. I agree. I mean, I think it's fine that there are people out there who want to love and adore Alistair, but personally, the character grates on my nerves. I wince, physically *wince* when he talks! Haters we may be, but I really feel like I need to vent about the complete idiocy of that (literal) royal bastard. Does anyone else think he sounds like a used car salesman?! Argh argh argh and rant rant!

Ranting said, I do think that Alistair's character is a little... in consistently put together. One moment he's emo, the next moment he's hero, and then he's wuss, and then he's crying, then he wants to be king, etc. etc. Part of me wonders if this is partly an effect of the need to accommodate a large number of different reactions to him. I mean, he is one of the main characters of the story and he's essential to the plot, whether you like him or not. He's also one of the characters with the most dialog options. I guess with all those possibilities floating about, it could explain why the character seems to be like a crack addict suffering from PMS.

But the core of the problem for the character, I think, *is* that he has to please so many. I really dislike many of his dialogue lines. Is he supposed to be witty for making euphemisms about lamp posts? Why does anyone in the world find that halfway intelligent?! Gaaah... I can't believe he has a line about there being no stupid templars, either. With the possible exception of Ser Greagoir, there *are only* stupid templars that I have met.

*rant*rant*rant*