223 réponses à ce sujet

[th3warr1or]

TeenZombie wrote...

mmm-hmm okay. All I gotta say is...

Teh epic winzzzz.

[druidofwarp]

robertthebard wrote...

So your goal is to save Ferelden, so long as you don't have to be responsible for anything that happens along the way?  Yet you have the audacity to call others idiots?  Of course, I am intimately familiar with your Black and White world view, and that anyone that disagrees with it is an idiot.  Apparently, you are not satisfied with your first Special Olympics trophy, and are actively pursuing another one?

Alistair is a wimp, and more, a liar and a coward.  Sure, he can swing a sword at baddies, but he doesn't have the courage to admit his heritage until he's fairly sure you're going to find out anyway, Redcliffe, and then he starts going on and on about not wanting it, not caring, etc etc.  Yet, if you ask him bluntly what would happen if you just left Ferelden, he states flat out that he won't consider it.  Except that he can, and will at the Landsmeet, depending on options taken in dialog, and whether you harden him or not.  However, this isn't even the lie that triggers he's a liar.  If you ask him prior to Redcliffe who his father is, he won't tell you.  so ice this cake however you want, but the cake itself is still made of mud.

He doesn't take responsibility untill he has to, and then when you force it on him he does quite well. You call him retarted for his alleged black & white views but your own black/white views on what a man is is perectly OK. Right.

Oh hes a liar! omg stop teh preszes. This just alot of your team is liars like Morrigana and Zev. Not a big deal his lies didnt negatively affect Ferelden in any way. I actually challenge you to name one way this was bad for Ferelden. He told you at exactly the time that it became important. He leaves Ferelden because you personally betray him with your actions, that sort of changes the game up a bit and now he's different than he was at Flemeths hut.

A wimp yeah i guess he acts wimpy every now and then because he's not a perfect alpha male like you clearly are.

A coward? Lol. He fights and even prepares to give his life to kill the Archdemon. He's a coward because he feels fear?

[LynxAQ]

LynxAQ wrote...

I disagree Baher of Glory. Alistair is a very delusioned person who seems to be very clingy. He is like getting chewing gum in your hair, you just cant get rid of it. He seems to act like Grey Wardens are honourable etc, but they not. Grey Wardens do and recruit anything it takes to win. Duncan makes this abundantly clear yet Alistair is first person to jump ship when you want to put Loghain through the joining.

Not to mention he cries and whinges the whole time about not wanting to be king and then at the moment you wont execute Loghain, suddenly he wants to be king for his own vengeance. Wimpy and out for himself imo. Off with his head!

Load of bull****. As usual.

Not wanting to be king is wimpy? I'd like to see you try it. I'm willingto bet my balls that you'd not only crack under pressure, but ruin your kingdom within days. Pebause people like yuo show a critical lack of objectivity and thinking.

Killing Loghain has NOTHING to do with Grey Wardens. Forget Loghain. He's inconsequental. Killing him is not against GW credo or anything.

Nice to see you using the age old fallacious argument of "Let me see you do better..." Seriously if you gonna just make an entire post of insults I would expect you to use at least 1 decent argument and not the pre-school "Let me see you do better..." argument. Considering that I neither claim or ever have claimed to be a great leader, your argument and points (You made any??) are irrelevant.

Um this whole post is about Alistairs character being wimpy and out for self vengeance and not actually caring about the blight or anyone, therefore Loghain is a BIG part in that, that prooves Alistair is childish and actually cares about nothing but his personal vengeance. Therefore we wont just forget about Loghain.

You seem to forget that recruiting Loghain is not against what Grey Wardens are about either, but deluded immature Alistair seems to have this fantasy about Grey Wardens being honourable etc. Not even sure where he gets this fantasy from because even Duncan I believe was a murderer and thief before he became a grey warden. Sophia Dryden used demons etc.

Can we have a cut scene watching Alistair being hanged at the end. I wanna hear his neck break as the box is kicked from his feet!

[Null]

Jesus Christ, he's a friggin video game character. What is wrong with you people?

[LynxAQ]

Whats wrong with people discussing something in a video game? If you dont like it, why did you bother to even post in this topic?

Modifié par LynxAQ, 18 décembre 2009 - 06:20 .

[Squiggles1334]

Herr Uhl wrote...
Yes, but in being a lover and not a fighter, he becomes kind of a whimp.

wut

He is not an "alpha male", far from it. He is indecisive and insecure, which is considered whimpy traits, please do correct me if I am wrong.

Not everyone is going to naturally be alpha male types. Doesn't diminish his sense of Warden duty which is pretty unwimpy. So he lacks confidence in his leadership. So he doesn't want the throne in the beginning. Guess not everyone's going to be on board with the progressive and sophisticated idea that bloodline is a far better qualifier for absolute authority than skill and aptitude.

Does that make him an idiot that I hate? Nope. Would I want to be a leader? Nope.

There just seems to be a lot of standing up for Alastair as to being from a "troubled past" which made him insecure. And those people are usually the same that say that Morrigan is evil incarnate, not taking into consideration that she was raised by Flemeth for roughly 30 years. Which would give one a skewed outlook on life. Oh the irony.

For the record, I never once declared Morrigan as evil incarnate. :innocent:

[Null]

LynxAQ wrote...

why did you other to even post in this topic?

wat

[Original182]

Alistair was sent away when he was 10. He never had a proper father figure before Duncan, so it's natural he didn't grow up properly.

He was always picked on for his royal blood, never felt like he belonged. Growing up in that kind of environment, it is normal for him to hate his bloodline. And to a certain extent, it probably led him to hate being in a position to lead.

He was raised in the Chantry and almost became a templar. We can guess that he was trained to obey orders in preparation as a templar, so his tendency to pass leadership to other people is not unlike that of a soldier who has to obey his superiors.

Before he could even become a templar, which might then have offered him opportunities to rise in ranks and be a commander of sorts, he was whisked away by Duncan to be a Grey Warden. Now, if both he and Duncan had lived long enough, Duncan would have trained him in some leadership skills. But nope, that didn't happen because Duncan died early.

So yes Alistair may seem like a wimp to people, but the world was against him in so many ways. We should cut him some slack.

[druidofwarp]

LynxAQ wrote...


Nice to see you using the age old fallacious argument of "Let me see you do better..." Seriously if you gonna just make an entire post of insults I would expect you to use at least 1 decent argument and not the pre-school "Let me see you do better..." argument. Considering that I neither claim or ever have claimed to be a great leader, your argument and points (You made any??) are irrelevant.

Um this whole post is about Alistairs character being wimpy and out for self vengeance and not actually caring about the blight or anyone, therefore Loghain is a BIG part in that, that prooves Alistair is childish and actually cares about nothing but his personal vengeance. Therefore we wont just forget about Loghain.

You seem to forget that recruiting Loghain is not against what Grey Wardens are about either, but deluded immature Alistair seems to have this fantasy about Grey Wardens being honourable etc. Not even sure where he gets this fantasy from because even Duncan I believe was a murderer and thief before he became a grey warden. Sophia Dryden used demons etc.

Can we have a cut scene watching Alistair being hanged at the end. I wanna hear his neck break as the box is kicked from his feet!

Still it has merits you can not argue that he should have to do something he doesn't want to, because you think he should.

If you actually listend to Alistair once this whole game you would know his stance on Loghain. You make the argument that the end justifies the means, pretty much the stance the Wardens take on everything. Alistair doesn't buy into this. Then when you do he leaves because you violate most everything he stands for

Yes optimism and morality are deludedly immature which is an easy stance to take when its a game. 

Can i get a cutscene of Loghains head leaving his shoulders?

[nos_astra]

LynxAQ wrote...
Can we have a cut scene watching Alistair being hanged at the end. I wanna hear his neck break as the box is kicked from his feet!

[robertthebard]

druidofwarp wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

So your goal is to save Ferelden, so long as you don't have to be responsible for anything that happens along the way?  Yet you have the audacity to call others idiots?  Of course, I am intimately familiar with your Black and White world view, and that anyone that disagrees with it is an idiot.  Apparently, you are not satisfied with your first Special Olympics trophy, and are actively pursuing another one?

Alistair is a wimp, and more, a liar and a coward.  Sure, he can swing a sword at baddies, but he doesn't have the courage to admit his heritage until he's fairly sure you're going to find out anyway, Redcliffe, and then he starts going on and on about not wanting it, not caring, etc etc.  Yet, if you ask him bluntly what would happen if you just left Ferelden, he states flat out that he won't consider it.  Except that he can, and will at the Landsmeet, depending on options taken in dialog, and whether you harden him or not.  However, this isn't even the lie that triggers he's a liar.  If you ask him prior to Redcliffe who his father is, he won't tell you.  so ice this cake however you want, but the cake itself is still made of mud.

He doesn't take responsibility untill he has to, and then when you force it on him he does quite well. You call him retarted for his alleged black & white views but your own black/white views on what a man is is perectly OK. Right.

Oh hes a liar! omg stop teh preszes. This just alot of your team is liars like Morrigana and Zev. Not a big deal his lies didnt negatively affect Ferelden in any way. I actually challenge you to name one way this was bad for Ferelden. He told you at exactly the time that it became important. He leaves Ferelden because you personally betray him with your actions, that sort of changes the game up a bit and now he's different than he was at Flemeths hut.

A wimp yeah i guess he acts wimpy every now and then because he's not a perfect alpha male like you clearly are.

A coward? Lol. He fights and even prepares to give his life to kill the Archdemon. He's a coward because he feels fear?

This is exactly what happens when you jump into a conversation that you know nothing about.  The special olympics comment is a refernce to a dialog that Lotion and I shared in another topic.  Before you consider yourself qualified to comment on my assessment, I suggest you know something of the history behind the comments, as without that, you are taking a line out of context and trying to build some kind of super nuker bomb to blast me with.  Enough of this, uninformed people should stay out of other's conversations.  You have a poor enough grip on the reality of my feeling about this subject as it is, despite my trying continually to explain it.  Hell, you went two (?) pages of a topic denying that Alistair could ever lie to the PC.  I find this more revealing than anything you could post here, or anywhere else.  Blinded by fandom.

Let's address the coward first.  He doesn't kill the Archdemon to be noble, or to be, in his words, "the best king I can be".  He kills the Archdemon because it's an easy way out of a life that he didn't want from the beginning.  Go ahead and try to prove otherwise.  What in game gives you the impression that he's decided to be a great king at this point in the game?  The fact that he's going to throw his life away to avoid doing it?  "I'm scared I might mess something up being King, so I'm going to kill the Archdemon so I don't have to worry about it"...

When he should have been taking responsibility, for all intents and purposes, is Flemeth's hut.  He is the senior Grey Warden, and I believe Flemeth will call him on this, and Morrigan does as well.  Now, there's a game mechanics problem here, but that doesn't cover the conversation in Lothering.  Except to give a cover story.  However, this is written into his character, but, as in the other topic, you may rationalize and justify his behavior any way you wish.

This response still fits pretty much into the paraphrasing I did of you earlier though, in that other topic.  Here you are, yet again, "OMG, Alistair is under attack, I have to call out the fanbois squad to shoot down the opposition"...  Cheers to you too, I guess.  However, I'm going to make this really easy:

Why Alistair is a wimp.

1.  When he should be stepping up to the plate, even simply as the senior Grey Warden, he waffles and lets the PC lead.  Note, the argument that this is game mechanics, while relevant, does not cover the conversation in Lothering, both in the cutscene after the bandits, and in a dialog with Morrigan.

2.  He is the only known surviving heir of Maric, and yet would rather lie to the PC prior to Redcliffe about who his father is to avoid his responsibilities.  Rationalization of not wanting to rule, or make decisions is a direct link to being a wimp.  It's actually a good sign of cowardice, however, wimp is higher on the food chain than coward, so we'll give him the credit here.

3.  Whether you take him to Redcliffe the first time you go, or you find out from Arl Eamon, there is a dialog that includes "I don't know who you are".  If you choose this option, he gets butthurt, and starts to break up with you.  If you try to apologize for being shocked to find out that he's been lying to you the whole time you've known him, he will be an ass, thinking that you owe him that, and if you call him on it, he will, rather than deal with the emotional conflict, break up with you.  This is also pretty cowardly.

What any of this has to do with Alpha Male, I have no idea.  However, even Beta males won't hide from their responsibilities.  The Landsmeet just further cements his immaturity, unless you kill Loghain, and frankly, I'm not sure he wouldn't be childish if you killed Loghain instead of allowing him to do it.  I haven't tried.  However, it would certainly fit in with what is known about him so far.

[LynxAQ]

Mueller86 wrote...

LynxAQ wrote...

why did you other to even post in this topic?

wat

Nice to see you using my typo and ignoring the question. It was ment to be bother not other. But you knew that.

[Null]

LynxAQ wrote...

Mueller86 wrote...

LynxAQ wrote...

why did you other to even post in this topic?

wat

Nice to see you using my typo and ignoring the question. It was ment to be bother not other. But you knew that.

I sure did diddly-doo!

[Herr Uhl]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Yes, but in being a lover and not a fighter, he becomes kind of a whimp.

wut

I speak in mysterious ways.

[Null]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Squiggles1334 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Yes, but in being a lover and not a fighter, he becomes kind of a whimp.

wut

I speak in mysterious ways.

Are you the Maker?

[Squiggles1334]

Gotta add that, to be fair, I was disappointed with Alistair's reaction to sparing and recruiting Loghain. Sure, I was glad to see him stand up for himself there, but his take-my-ball-and-leave response seemed quite out of character for someone who was all about stopping the Blight at all costs. I can understand if he felt Loghain's presence could jeopardize the mission from his point of view, but ranting about honor as if it mattered to the Grey Warden mandate then quitting seemed wrong for a guy who probably wore a WWDD bracelet.

Seemed like inconsistent writing for the character, but I guess BioWare had to shoehorn a major choose-one-NPC-over-another decision somehow.

Otherwise, Alistair! Whattaguy!

[XOGHunter246]

I smell a troll *runs*

[Uilleand]

sleepy__head wrote...

Actually, as a general rule, those who don't seek powers are FAR more suitable for it than those who actively court it.

This. And I have way more respect for those who pass on power.
I always have Anora as queen....Alistair's more use to his nation turning darkspawn into a fine, red mist.

[LynxAQ]

I dont think it was out of character. Alistair is a delusional character who seems to make and put things / people onto pedistals. I mean he put Duncan on the pedistal in the 6 months he knew Duncan, even tho Duncan would of recruited Loghain without question. He was a pragmatic person.



He then puts the Grey Wardens on to this fantasy pedistal saying they are honourable and only good people shoul be one. By that logic, his hero, Duncan should of never been a Grey Warden seeing as Duncan was once a criminal.



He is out for personal vengeance at any cost and cares nothing about stopping the blight if he doesnt get his personal vengeance. He doesnt want the crown the entire game then suddenly wants it when you wont execute Loghain even tho Rioldan just said there are too few GW in Fereldon and we need every GW we can get. Loghain is 100% committed to Fereldon and would of never betrayed you in the end. More than can be said about Alistair.



He keeps a huge secret at the start and only tells you because you gonna find out anyway. Probably wouldn't of even told you if he thought you weren't going to find out through another source. Lies about it as well. Going in circles now, but Alistair is deserved of execution and I was 100% behind Anora who is a real leader! (Tho her final charge speech was somewhat cringeworthy)

[Herr Uhl]

Mueller86 wrote...

Are you the Maker?

Yes, my child. You must die for sins committed by someone else however.

[robertthebard]

druidofwarp wrote...

LynxAQ wrote...


Nice to see you using the age old fallacious argument of "Let me see you do better..." Seriously if you gonna just make an entire post of insults I would expect you to use at least 1 decent argument and not the pre-school "Let me see you do better..." argument. Considering that I neither claim or ever have claimed to be a great leader, your argument and points (You made any??) are irrelevant.

Um this whole post is about Alistairs character being wimpy and out for self vengeance and not actually caring about the blight or anyone, therefore Loghain is a BIG part in that, that prooves Alistair is childish and actually cares about nothing but his personal vengeance. Therefore we wont just forget about Loghain.

You seem to forget that recruiting Loghain is not against what Grey Wardens are about either, but deluded immature Alistair seems to have this fantasy about Grey Wardens being honourable etc. Not even sure where he gets this fantasy from because even Duncan I believe was a murderer and thief before he became a grey warden. Sophia Dryden used demons etc.

Can we have a cut scene watching Alistair being hanged at the end. I wanna hear his neck break as the box is kicked from his feet!

Still it has merits you can not argue that he should have to do something he doesn't want to, because you think he should.

If you actually listend to Alistair once this whole game you would know his stance on Loghain. You make the argument that the end justifies the means, pretty much the stance the Wardens take on everything. Alistair doesn't buy into this. Then when you do he leaves because you violate most everything he stands for

Yes optimism and morality are deludedly immature which is an easy stance to take when its a game. 

Can i get a cutscene of Loghains head leaving his shoulders?

This is an interesting concept.  Alistair doesn't buy into the ends justifies the means, except that this very concept is how he became a Warden in the first place.  Of course, if you'd listened to Alistair once in the whole game, you'd know that.  Selective blindness is a rare gift.  So tell me, when does Alistair exhibit optimism?  Everything about Alistair is "I don't want...."  He doesn't want to be King, fine, it's easy to fix, conscript Loghain, and kill Alistair in the Landsmeet.  He won't have to worry about being King.  If Alistair doesn't buy into the Grey Wardens, then why does he spend almost the entire game revelling in his Grey Warden family, and why does the death of a Grey Warden bring him so much grief?  You have talked yourself into a corner now.  Everything Alistair stands for, as represented by Alistair through dialog in game is being a Grey Warden.  However, it's ok to overlook this when the Grey Warden thing to do is add to the ranks to help insure success against the Archdemon, and run off to another country to get drunk...ooook.  Everybody back away slowly, we are about to have fanboi meltdown.

The double standard is amazing too.  I should have to fight the blight as a conscripted City Elf why?  Because I'm a Grey Warden?  Um, being a Grey Warden doesn't seem to be compelling enough to keep Alistair doing it, unless of course, you let him cut off Loghain's head, and then it's all good.  So yeah, we, as PC's can't have it both ways, but Alistair can?

[XOGHunter246]

LynxAQ wrote...

I dont think it was out of character. Alistair is a delusional character who seems to make and put things / people onto pedistals. I mean he put Duncan on the pedistal in the 6 months he knew Duncan, even tho Duncan would of recruited Loghain without question. He was a pragmatic person.

He then puts the Grey Wardens on to this fantasy pedistal saying they are honourable and only good people shoul be one. By that logic, his hero, Duncan should of never been a Grey Warden seeing as Duncan was once a criminal.

He is out for personal vengeance at any cost and cares nothing about stopping the blight if he doesnt get his personal vengeance. He doesnt want the crown the entire game then suddenly wants it when you wont execute Loghain even tho Rioldan just said there are too few GW in Fereldon and we need every GW we can get. Loghain is 100% committed to Fereldon and would of never betrayed you in the end. More than can be said about Alistair.

He keeps a huge secret at the start and only tells you because you gonna find out anyway. Probably wouldn't of even told you if he thought you weren't going to find out through another source. Lies about it as well. Going in circles now, but Alistair is deserved of execution and I was 100% behind Anora who is a real leader! (Tho her final charge speech was somewhat cringeworthy)

you have pointed out some valid points you kind of change my way of thinking about him now but he is a sensitive character so he would over react  even seemed he regretted leaving he said he was jelous i was going to rebuild them. 

Modifié par XOGHunter246, 18 décembre 2009 - 06:42 .

[druidofwarp]

robertthebard wrote...

This is exactly what happens when you jump into a conversation that you know nothing about.  The special olympics comment is a refernce to a dialog that Lotion and I shared in another topic.  Before you consider yourself qualified to comment on my assessment, I suggest you know something of the history behind the comments, as without that, you are taking a line out of context and trying to build some kind of super nuker bomb to blast me with.  Enough of this, uninformed people should stay out of other's conversations.  You have a poor enough grip on the reality of my feeling about this subject as it is, despite my trying continually to explain it.  Hell, you went two (?) pages of a topic denying that Alistair could ever lie to the PC.  I find this more revealing than anything you could post here, or anywhere else.  Blinded by fandom.

Let's address the coward first.  He doesn't kill the Archdemon to be noble, or to be, in his words, "the best king I can be".  He kills the Archdemon because it's an easy way out of a life that he didn't want from the beginning.  Go ahead and try to prove otherwise.  What in game gives you the impression that he's decided to be a great king at this point in the game?  The fact that he's going to throw his life away to avoid doing it?  "I'm scared I might mess something up being King, so I'm going to kill the Archdemon so I don't have to worry about it"...

When he should have been taking responsibility, for all intents and purposes, is Flemeth's hut.  He is the senior Grey Warden, and I believe Flemeth will call him on this, and Morrigan does as well.  Now, there's a game mechanics problem here, but that doesn't cover the conversation in Lothering.  Except to give a cover story.  However, this is written into his character, but, as in the other topic, you may rationalize and justify his behavior any way you wish.

This response still fits pretty much into the paraphrasing I did of you earlier though, in that other topic.  Here you are, yet again, "OMG, Alistair is under attack, I have to call out the fanbois squad to shoot down the opposition"...  Cheers to you too, I guess.  However, I'm going to make this really easy:

Why Alistair is a wimp.

1.  When he should be stepping up to the plate, even simply as the senior Grey Warden, he waffles and lets the PC lead.  Note, the argument that this is game mechanics, while relevant, does not cover the conversation in Lothering, both in the cutscene after the bandits, and in a dialog with Morrigan.

2.  He is the only known surviving heir of Maric, and yet would rather lie to the PC prior to Redcliffe about who his father is to avoid his responsibilities.  Rationalization of not wanting to rule, or make decisions is a direct link to being a wimp.  It's actually a good sign of cowardice, however, wimp is higher on the food chain than coward, so we'll give him the credit here.

3.  Whether you take him to Redcliffe the first time you go, or you find out from Arl Eamon, there is a dialog that includes "I don't know who you are".  If you choose this option, he gets butthurt, and starts to break up with you.  If you try to apologize for being shocked to find out that he's been lying to you the whole time you've known him, he will be an ass, thinking that you owe him that, and if you call him on it, he will, rather than deal with the emotional conflict, break up with you.  This is also pretty cowardly.

What any of this has to do with Alpha Male, I have no idea.  However, even Beta males won't hide from their responsibilities.  The Landsmeet just further cements his immaturity, unless you kill Loghain, and frankly, I'm not sure he wouldn't be childish if you killed Loghain instead of allowing him to do it.  I haven't tried.  However, it would certainly fit in with what is known about him so far.

Alright so you made a special olympics references implying your calling him a name still ad hominem. Whatever whats worse is you make a claim that I spend 2(?) pages "denying that Alistair could ever lie to the PC." you have no evidence to back this up as I made no such claims, instead I was defending Alistairs POV. Then again your telling me that I am uninformed when you just completey mistated my arguments in the other thread is quite telling.

So let me adress the cowardice thing. I'm guessing you unlocked the secret mind reader spec? That you are such an Alistair expert that you know that the only thing flowing through his mind at the time was his fear of being king? I mean in no way could his love for the PC or his desire to stop the Blight with his own hands or anything else could have factored into his decision. Trying to second guess this brave deed with the idea that you know his thoughts is impossible to logically prove.

Alistair doesn't want to lead that's his problem, and he has his reasons like being a follower as a person. Not everyone was meant to lead I'm not sure why you think the people he is related to defines how he should act. Lol you are clearly more on the Alistair hate squad than I am his defender.

1. He is senior by six months, for all you know you guys are still the same rank. He is technically senior but its not by much so I dont see why this is such a big deal that he defers to you since you seem more capable to him.

2.Again a lie that has no bearing on the story or your actions until very late in the game. He does not want to rule but when forced to becomes a good king, so he acts a wimp then rises to the occasion. But that last statement varies as such things would by the actions your PC takes in different games.

3.Really it seems he doesn't get anymore butthurt than you do. And maybe he jsut doesnt like you PC enough to try and work things out like that lol.

He is fine as long as Loghain dies.

I guess he does act wimpy from time to time, you know when he's not murdering darkspawn, but he's no coward.

[Sialater]

Why on earth, as a city elf, would you want Logain to live and Anora to have the throne? They're kinda overall responsible for your current 30 year probation on your death sentence....

Modifié par Sialater, 18 décembre 2009 - 06:51 .

[Squiggles1334]

Dear BioWare,



For the next installment of Dragon Age, please make all future recruitable NPCs to be perfect ubermensch with no physical or emotional flaws and no internal conflicts so that debates like these will never happen again.



Your best bud,



Squiggles1334