223 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

ejoslin wrote...
Alistair was the king in name only. Arl Eamon held the true power. Why else did he abdicate Radcliff in favor of his brother when Alistair was made king? Alistair was nothing but a pawn in the political game. The PC can also be the string puller -- Alistair brings nothing but his bloodline to the table.

Yes, the reluctant Alistair may be seen so, still Ferelden does not suffer at his hands. Anyway, it is entirely up to you if he changes and does the job on his own - and as good as Anora on her own. The only option left to do even better is to let Alistair and Anora rule together, that makes a Golden Age for Ferelden.

ejoslin wrote...
Alistair showed a weak character in many ways in his relationship with a female PC. Even when he finally asks to spend the night with her, it has nothing to do with loving her, but wanting to throw caution to the wind, and then wanting to end it (but not having the nerve) afterwards.

He's a man after all, although many seem to argue on that point.   You don't blame him that with love comes desire, do you? I don't. There's far more text then just "caution to the wind", before he tell's you that he can't think straight (and therefore is not very eloquent) and that's a pretty bad time (to fall in love). You can read between the lines what you want, again it's up to you.

My female noble rogue and he almost seem to share the lead. She's does the talking, he backs her up and is her oh so faithful protector (tank). Since she's nobility she was raised to lead way more than Alistair was, he was actually told to shut up and subordinate. I take into account that the game mechanics make it neccessary that it's the PC who decides.

Modifié par klarabella, 18 décembre 2009 - 10:55 .

[nos_astra]

double post

Modifié par klarabella, 18 décembre 2009 - 10:55 .

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

He's a man after all, although many seem to argue on that point.   You don't blame him that with love comes desire, do you? I don't. There's far more text then just "caution to the wind", before he tell's you that he can't think straight (and therefore is not very eloquent) and that's a pretty bad time (to fall in love). You can read between the lines what you want, again it's up to you.

My female noble rogue and he almost seem to share the lead. She's does the talking, he backs her up and is her oh so faithful protector (tank). Since she's nobility she was raised to lead way more than Alistair was, he was actually told to shut up and subordinate. I take into account that the game mechanics make it neccessary that it's the PC who decides.

I didn't say I blamed him; I said he showed a weak character in his relationship with the PC.  An unhardened Alistair will actually give huge negative rep if you say all that matters is the two of you care for each other.  Even a hardened Alistair will give positive rep if you break up with him after discussing the future.  The only hint I really got that Alistair genuinely loved the PC was after she broke up with him and married him for political reasons and got the ending saying the people were delighted at how the king seemed to adore Elissa.  Even when my pc left him at the gate after he dumped my elf and didn't do the ritual, even though my pc had told him the night before that she still loved him, even though he knew my pc was going to die, he still couldn't even tell her he still loved her.  

*grin* I think I've done most of the endings.  There's a lot good about Alistair, but he's weak.  Try making Anora queen and sacrificing yourself and see how he turns out, at least when he's not hardened.  Without a strong person behind him, he's lacking.  There's good reason that Sten only found one worthwhile person in his travels.

Modifié par ejoslin, 18 décembre 2009 - 11:17 .

[AtreiyaN7]

In that conversation with Shale, he kind of delivers that "shut up" line in a NON-wimpy manner. Not wanting to lead doesn't make you a wimp either. He puts his life on the line the whole time, and he doesn't run from danger. The whole Landsmeet thing is a non-issue in my opinion. Being so angry that you can't think straight and storm off is not the same as turning tail and running because you're a coward. If people want to twist things to fit their view of the world, no one can stop them with all the logic in the world.

[Darkened Dragon]

klarabella wrote...


He's a man after all, although many seem to argue on that point.   You don't blame him that with love comes desire, do you? I don't. There's far more text then just "caution to the wind", before he tell's you that he can't think straight (and therefore is not very eloquent) and that's a pretty bad time (to fall in love). You can read between the lines what you want, again it's up to you.

Well technically Shale is a woman turned "it" for lack of a better term. This actually comes out during the Anvil of the Void quest if Shale is in group when its done. Shale's original name was Shayle, a female dwarf that had her soul infused with the golem on the anvil.

[nos_astra]

Darkened Dragon wrote...
Well technically Shale is a woman turned "it" for lack of a better term. This actually comes out during the Anvil of the Void quest if Shale is in group when its done. Shale's original name was Shayle, a female dwarf that had her soul infused with the golem on the anvil.

Uh, I wasn't talking about Shale. :-)

[Boss Fog]

LynxAQ wrote...

TelvanniWarlord wrote...

Right because inviting a war criminal like Loghain into the order makes perfect sense.  Oh it's ok that you've tried to kill all of us, you let our king die, tried to sell elves as slaves, you hired a blood mage to poison Arl Eamon and let Howe do whatever the hell he wants after he murdered the Cousland family.  There comes a point when someone isn't worth having by your side, not by any means.   I can't imagine why Alistair is sooo against having Loghain become a Grey Warden.  I spit on Loghain's corpse everytime (RP) after I lob off his head and then glare at Riordin for suggesting such trash be invited to the order.  I agree with Alistair 110% at that moment in the game, sorry but I couldn't disagree with you more.

You do realise that Duncan was a murderer and thief before he became a warden yeah? Wardens do whatever it takes to win. There where only 3 wardens in fereldon at that moment when you choose whether or not to change Loghain into a GW. Rioldan and so would of Duncan, saw the chance to get another GW and what better thing than having Fereldons greatest General a Grey Warden? Remember most the public / soldiers dont know what has transpired at the Landsmeet and what Loghain did. Having the great general at your side in the final charge against the arch demon is a huge moral booster for the soldiers. Moral is a powerful weopon. This is what Alistair fails to realise and see because hes to blinded by vengeance.

And at the end you realise the blight / you the PC and everything else ment nothing to Alistair. He was out for his personal vengeance all that time an when you refuse to give it to him he abandons you. He must of known what he was going to do the moment you had Loghain cornered. Alistair is a childish fool.

Alistair is also blinded by this fool notion that being a GW is a honour etc when that is the furtherest thing from the truth in all reality. Like I said. Alistair is disillusoned and has this bad habit of idolising and putting people on pedistals and then being blinded to everything else.

Well it's obviously not a morale boost for the soldiers in the military, at least with my playthrough since basically everyone at the landsmeet sided with me against Loghain.  I highly doubt Duncan would have allowed Loghain to join the GW after his treachery at Ostager; or do you not recall the look on his face right before he died when he realized that Alistair and the PC are the only people at Ostagar who actually did their job and the coward known as Loghain left the field of battle; he looked pretty pissed.  If you're going to talk about being blinded by vengeance, all he really asks for is the death of Loghain although I don't particularily agree that he should leave the party if you choose to recruit him, he's still within every right to be royally irate about it; heck I was irate that Riordan even suggested it.  I really don't care what the GW's policies are (recruiting whoever can fight and such), I don't particularily care for Duncan murdering Jory either; I find it up to the PC to make the decisions after Duncan's death, not Riordin who's quite worthless in the long run IMO.
Loghain is the one who is blinded by vengeance, a vengeance that isn't even relevant; he hates the country to the west that has absolutely nothing to do with the present circumstances; he's tearing a nation apart for no reason.  And as far as I'm concerned, it's the PC and Alistair (+the companions) who do pretty much all of the work throughout the entire game, they were there from day one doing their job and going above and beyond the call of duty, finding sacred ashes, curing elves of a curse, crowning a king for the dwarves, while Loghain sat on his arse emptying all the money in the treasury trying to kill them.  Maybe Alistair is a bit childish , but he's also competent, such as seen as the speech he delivers right before the siege of Denerim ( he boosted morale pretty highly there).

[ejoslin]

Riorden was not useless. He sacrificed himself to cripple the arch demon so you could fight it. It was because the wing was torn so badly that it couldn't fly away. However, the one time I saved Logain I hated the ending -- some people don't deserve redemption.

[Realmzmaster]

Everyone cannot be a leader or the alpha male prototype. Every group has to have followers, who take their lead from the leader. You cannot have two or more alpha men in a group, there would be constant one upmanship and fights over who should lead. Sten challenges you for leadership around Haven, but after you win his respect by beating the snot out of him, he falls into line.



Not everyone is fit to lead. It does not make them a wimp. Some people realize their limitations. (A man must know his limitations-Dirty Harry). Some people grow into leadership as they mature. Some are born leaders, but still require training. Some people are comfortable commanding others.

Also what is the purpose of your character if Alistair is the leader?

[robertthebard]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Everyone cannot be a leader or the alpha male prototype. Every group has to have followers, who take their lead from the leader. You cannot have two or more alpha men in a group, there would be constant one upmanship and fights over who should lead. Sten challenges you for leadership around Haven, but after you win his respect by beating the snot out of him, he falls into line.

Not everyone is fit to lead. It does not make them a wimp. Some people realize their limitations. (A man must know his limitations-Dirty Harry). Some people grow into leadership as they mature. Some are born leaders, but still require training. Some people are comfortable commanding others.
Also what is the purpose of your character if Alistair is the leader?

So tell me, if I had had a way to pack my bags and leave Ferelden to it's own devices, do you think Alistair would have saved it?  If, for example, I could have just gone to Orlais from Flemeth's hut, what do you think Alistair would have done?  Would he have followed Morrigan?  Would Morrigan have not just barbecued his ass in a week?  You see, for the game to work, the PC has to be the leader.  However, Alistair could have manned up about his birthright from the start.  Instead, he cowered behind poor jokes about being raised by dogs, and flat out lies to the PC if you ask who his father is.  He does this because he's scared that he might be called upon to live up to his name.  He won't volunteer the information until he's pretty sure you're going to find out anyway.  He's afraid you might look at him differently, and of course, you will.  How differently might depend on your origin, however.

While all of this is an excuse, it doesn't change the fact that yes, it makes him look really wimpy about it.  What is his grand plan?  He hopes it will go away.  Yeah, that's manly.

[Squiggles1334]

Realmzmaster wrote...
Also what is the purpose of your character if Alistair is the leader?

For some, a lamp post for licking.

[robertthebard]

druidofwarp wrote...

LynxAQ wrote...


I dont buy the gameplay reasoning for him not to want to lead. What is the gameplay reason for him not wanting to be king? He even says several times through dialogue and party banter (Morrigan comes to mind mainly) that he does not think he will be a good king and he doesnt want it. I agree with him. Alistair is a disillusioned fool with no back bone for most the game. Only time he actually grows a back bone is when he wants personal vengeance. I mean the guy tries to suddenly take the crown and rulership of the people just so he can get his vengeance. Pathetic tbh. But hey ho circled argument now.

I see him as pretty optimistic and moral, and see his attempt on the crown as more than just petty revenge. The crimes Loghain commited were too numerous to go unpunished in his mind, and there you were going to let him walk free. So he tried to steal the crown because he could not let this go unpunished.

So in other words, he wanted the crown so he could act against the Landsmeet to get the "justice" he thought Loghain deserved.  Hmm, sure sounds like vengence to me, since the Landsmeet had spoken.  In fact, Loghain pulls a very similar move that leads to the duel not 5 minutes before that, and people tend to think that that was an evil act.  So where's it different?

[skotie]

PinkShira wrote...

I don't think not wanting to lead is the same as being a wimp. I don't see him running away from the darkspawn... as a matter of fact he will take the final blow and sacrifice himself. I don't consider that a wimp. Now as to him not being a leader, well, I prefer the ending where I don't make him a king. He doesn't want to be the king so why shove him on the throne?

Honestly even if you decide to destroy the ashes of Andraste Alistair will still stick by your side when most others will fight you, if anything Id say hes far from being a wimp, not wanting to lead does not make you weak. Sten would make a horrible leader imo, doesn't mean hes not a great warrior.

Honestly I think he makes a good king too, even though he doesn't want to be king, most of which is because he was a bastard all his life and treated differently for it, but the only other choice you get is Anora, the B**** who betrays you, TWICE!! First when your rescueing her, second when you ask her to speak against her father at the landsmeet. I would personally kill her if I could, but even then Alistair is the one who does the right thing and locks her in a tower instead of killing her.

At least Alistair has no shame admiting he perfers to follow and admiting his short comings. I can't really say the same about Morrigan, she leads a messed up life by a messed up mother who wanted to steal her soul, then she finds out about it. When you kill her mother for her, then try to fall in love with her, she for some messed up reason she seems to listen to the advice her mother taught her years ago, yes...... this is the same mother that tried to eat her soul and steal her body! yeah because all thats important in life is power and love is meaningless lol.

GREAT so while your mother might be a soul devouring shapeshifting dragon who wants to steal her daughters body for herself, you should remember that she still has important life lessons to teach you which also include:
Cut yourself off from society!
Trust no one!
Kick anyone who begs you for help in the FACE!
And do anything to be powerful!

Modifié par skotie, 19 décembre 2009 - 05:22 .

[Original182]

robertthebard wrote...
So tell me, if I had had a way to pack my bags and leave Ferelden to it's own devices, do you think Alistair would have saved it?  If, for example, I could have just gone to Orlais from Flemeth's hut, what do you think Alistair would have done?  Would he have followed Morrigan?  Would Morrigan have not just barbecued his ass in a week?  You see, for the game to work, the PC has to be the leader.  However, Alistair could have manned up about his birthright from the start.  Instead, he cowered behind poor jokes about being raised by dogs, and flat out lies to the PC if you ask who his father is.  He does this because he's scared that he might be called upon to live up to his name.  He won't volunteer the information until he's pretty sure you're going to find out anyway.  He's afraid you might look at him differently, and of course, you will.  How differently might depend on your origin, however.

While all of this is an excuse, it doesn't change the fact that yes, it makes him look really wimpy about it.  What is his grand plan?  He hopes it will go away.  Yeah, that's manly.

Actually, I remember there is a conversation option with Alistair where I asked "What if we were to just leave?". I think Alistair's response was like if we left, Ferelden would be lost, so no he wouldn't just leave.

That's bravery, not cowardice.

[skotie]

LynxAQ wrote...

To reply to your part about saying where does it say Grey Wardens do anything to win. Cant believe you missed the dozens of times it is mentioned. The weird part is even Alistair mentions it when you do something he doesnt even agree with, yet is ready to jump ship when you recruit Loghain.

The intro says it, Duncan says it when you ask him about the grey wardens. Sophia Dryden says it etc etc. Cant remember the names and every cut scene that mentions it, but it is jammed down you alot in the game.

Tho it is fun watching him have his tantrum in the nude. First time the bastard walked off with all my good tank stuff! I was wiser the next time round. OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!

Support Loghain people - you know it is right! Then we can all get marshmellows and roast them in the fire as Alistair burns on a stake.

Ignoreing everything Loghain did not only to the Grey Wardens but even his own country men, his king and my elven people is impossible. Yes I play a city elf usually. Duncan's look in his eyes at Ostagar alone when he realized what happened was enough reason for me to kill Loghain.

Unless your playing a true evil character I don't see how you can overlook what Loghain has done. He doesn't even feel bad about any of it, at least Jowan eventually realized how much he messed up and tried to help out in the end.

Modifié par skotie, 19 décembre 2009 - 05:24 .

[robertthebard]

Original182 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
So tell me, if I had had a way to pack my bags and leave Ferelden to it's own devices, do you think Alistair would have saved it?  If, for example, I could have just gone to Orlais from Flemeth's hut, what do you think Alistair would have done?  Would he have followed Morrigan?  Would Morrigan have not just barbecued his ass in a week?  You see, for the game to work, the PC has to be the leader.  However, Alistair could have manned up about his birthright from the start.  Instead, he cowered behind poor jokes about being raised by dogs, and flat out lies to the PC if you ask who his father is.  He does this because he's scared that he might be called upon to live up to his name.  He won't volunteer the information until he's pretty sure you're going to find out anyway.  He's afraid you might look at him differently, and of course, you will.  How differently might depend on your origin, however.

While all of this is an excuse, it doesn't change the fact that yes, it makes him look really wimpy about it.  What is his grand plan?  He hopes it will go away.  Yeah, that's manly.

Actually, I remember there is a conversation option with Alistair where I asked "What if we were to just leave?". I think Alistair's response was like if we left, Ferelden would be lost, so no he wouldn't just leave.

That's bravery, not cowardice.

Really?  What happens when you spare Loghain?  Yeah, that's dedication to a cause.  I can tell you anything in a conversation where we both know it's purely hypothetical.  The true test is what happens when the chance presents itself.  Alistair went and got drunk, and left you to deal with the blight.

[eschilde]

Some of the arguments seem to imply that Duncan would do what Riordan suggested and recruit Loghain. Seeing as how Duncan's dead, I'd just like to say that no one knows for sure what he'd do. That said, just because Riordan said a person's past actions don't matter in recruiting doesn't mean Duncan wouldn't take into account the fact that Loghain's spent a lot of time and energy working against the GWs the whole game. Basically, I think that one's up in the air.



Alistair never straight up lies about his parentage, he just avoids the question several times. That's not necessarily better, but he seems to think that although Cailin is dead, he's still not the heir to the throne, and therefore it doesn't matter. Not saying that's better or worse, just getting the facts straight

I can tell you anything in a conversation where we both know it's purely hypothetical

Well, if you ask a hypothetical question it's fair to answer it quoting a hypothetical conversation :b

[Original182]

robertthebard wrote...

Original182 wrote...
Actually, I remember there is a conversation option with Alistair where I asked "What if we were to just leave?". I think Alistair's response was like if we left, Ferelden would be lost, so no he wouldn't just leave.

That's bravery, not cowardice.

Really?  What happens when you spare Loghain?  Yeah, that's dedication to a cause.  I can tell you anything in a conversation where we both know it's purely hypothetical.  The true test is what happens when the chance presents itself.  Alistair went and got drunk, and left you to deal with the blight.

You know what, ____ you, you gnomish-lookalike thing. Go ____ yourself.

In another situation, if you let Alistair duel Loghain and Alistair beat him, you don't get the option to spare Loghain. Alistair would immediately execute Loghain afterwards. Alistair actually has a spine.

[Realmzmaster]

robertthebard,

If your character pack his/her bags and left would not that make your character the coward. Alistair at least states that he is staying to defend the country. Considering that Alistair has templar training, no Morrigan could not simply barbecued his ass. Cleanse Area with templar armor(40% or more spell resistance) then get in close to Morrigan and she will be kissing dirt. Why would Alistair have to man up about his birthright. No one gave a damn about it until the king bit the dust. In fact all the nobles were more than happy he stayed away. He was a bastard and treated like a bastard until the nobles needed him. Why should he tell the character so he can be a bargaining chip? None of your companions except the dog tell you everything until you get their approval rating up. As far as a grand plan, does your character have one? The only grand plan is to kill the Arch Demon and Alistair is the one who suggests using the treaties to build an army. He gives you directions to the important parties. As far as telling or not telling how does that make one less manly? He is the one who suggests going to Redcliffe, so he knows that the information will come out. He choose to tell you on his terms and when he wanted to.

He never had to tell you at all. He could have just let you find out for yourself.

[Stuffy38]

Alistair doesn't need a backbone, he has the PC.



He grows a pair by the end of the game too. The fact that there's 6 pages of comments on this topic indicates that he's a very well constructed character, hats off to Bioware I reckon.

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
They can shape him to what they want, despite his prowess in battle.  In case anyone doubts this, the biggest complaint I have seen from the fangirls is when he breaks away from their mold and won't let them slay the Archdemon.  I have seen fanbois defend this decision as manly, but to me, it's the second most cowardly thing he does in game.  He doesn't do it out of love, he does it out of a desire to escape from his life.

And you know that exactly how? Well....I'm waiting...
See, this is why I hate people s set in their views about someone that they consider themselves godly arbiters of what a man is thinking. Evne when there could be several possible reasons and motivations.. No, it MUST be the one they point out. Cause they are never wrong. And cause believeing the worst about anyone but themselves is so good...no?

robertthebard wrote...
So
your goal is to save Ferelden, so long as you don't have to be
responsible for anything that happens along the way?  Yet you have the
audacity to call others idiots?  Of course, I am intimately familiar
with your Black and White world view, and that anyone that disagrees
with it is an idiot.  Apparently, you are not satisfied with your first
Special Olympics trophy, and are actively pursuing another one?

robertthebard, grow a brain allready.
No, that's not what I'm sying. Read my post again. And again. A million
times if it's needed, untill those two synapses finally fire and you
friggin understand.
If you can't really phantom what I'm saying here, I'm not gonna bother explaining it to you in detail.

Alistair
is a wimp, and more, a liar and a coward.  Sure, he can swing a sword
at baddies, but he doesn't have the courage to admit his heritage until
he's fairly sure you're going to find out anyway, Redcliffe, and then
he starts going on and on about not wanting it, not caring, etc etc. 
Yet, if you ask him bluntly what would happen if you just left
Ferelden, he states flat out that he won't consider it.  Except that he
can, and will at the Landsmeet, depending on options taken in dialog,
and whether you harden him or not.  However, this isn't even the lie
that triggers he's a liar.  If you ask him prior to Redcliffe who his
father is, he won't tell you.  so ice this cake however you want, but
the cake itself is still made of mud.

Your'e assuming much. You're ego is getting hte better of you. WHY should he tell hte Pc anything about his herratage? he has every reason NOT to tell him, not the opposite.
Is this is another one of those "spoiled players think they deserve everything" rants? Cause you don't.

THINK.
Alistairs knows the PC for only a short while. Do you really disclose your deepst secrets to someone who is practicly a stranger? Especially secrets you promissed to KEEP secrats?
No, Alsitair doens't owe you nothing. Especially given how people treat him once they know. He told ouy himself - he wants for people to treat him as Alistair, not prince Alistair.
In his shoues, I wouldn't tell the PC either. I don't have to. I don't want to. You dont' need to nkow. You don't have the "right" to know.

Oh, and at the Landsmeet, you do push Alistair over the edge. And at that point, he doens't know Grey Wardens are needed. I mean - the throne is secure. The armies are assembled. Grey Warderns from Orlais are on their way again.Why would he even think he is needed now?

EDIT:
And Alistair is no insecure in generral. He's only insecure in his skill at leading a nation, which is logical, since he had not studied the art of governing.  He's a damn fine leader in a battle.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 19 décembre 2009 - 10:41 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LynxAQ wrote...
Um this whole post is about Alistairs character being wimpy and out for self vengeance and not actually caring about the blight or anyone, therefore Loghain is a BIG part in that, that prooves Alistair is childish and actually cares about nothing but his personal vengeance. Therefore we wont just forget about Loghain.

And you are wrong.
You're making a connection between sparing Loghain and fighting the blight, when such a connection does not exist.
Killing Loghian proves nothing. Nothing.
Loghain is not needed to fight the blight. Unles you can prove otherwise...

You seem to forget that recruiting Loghain is not against what Grey Wardens are about either, but deluded immature Alistair seems to have this fantasy about Grey Wardens being honourable etc. Not even sure where he gets this fantasy from because even Duncan I believe was a murderer and thief before he became a grey warden. Sophia Dryden used demons etc.

Wrong again. Grey Wardens general demenaor depends on their leaders. While it changes over time, tehy are generally honourable. Sophia Dryden is an exception. Read the books to see how Grey Wardens act.

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
Let's address the coward first.  He doesn't kill the Archdemon to be noble, or to be, in his words, "the best king I can be".  He kills the Archdemon because it's an easy way out of a life that he didn't want from the beginning.  Go ahead and try to prove otherwise.  What in game gives you the impression that he's decided to be a great king at this point in the game?  The fact that he's going to throw his life away to avoid doing it?  "I'm scared I might mess something up being King, so I'm going to kill the Archdemon so I don't have to worry about it"...

That line is not proof of anything and you know it.
And even if he feels that the best way to serve Ferelden was to sacrifice himself to kill the Archdemon, so what? That's whimpyness? No....just no.

Why Alistair is a wimp.

1.  When he should be stepping up to the plate, even simply as the senior Grey Warden, he waffles and lets the PC lead.  Note, the argument that this is game mechanics, while relevant, does not cover the conversation in Lothering, both in the cutscene after the bandits, and in a dialog with Morrigan.

not wanting to lead is no indication or prof of whympiness

2.  He is the only known surviving heir of Maric, and yet would rather lie to the PC prior to Redcliffe about who his father is to avoid his responsibilities.  Rationalization of not wanting to rule, or make decisions is a direct link to being a wimp.  It's actually a good sign of cowardice, however, wimp is higher on the food chain than coward, so we'll give him the credit here.

Not telling you is not equal to lying. He doens't HAVE to tell you. You're not entilted to know. there's nothing whimpy about it.
NEXT!

3.  Whether you take him to Redcliffe the first time you go, or you find out from Arl Eamon, there is a dialog that includes "I don't know who you are".  If you choose this option, he gets butthurt, and starts to break up with you.  If you try to apologize for being shocked to find out that he's been lying to you the whole time you've known him, he will be an ass, thinking that you owe him that, and if you call him on it, he will, rather than deal with the emotional conflict, break up with you.  This is also pretty cowardly.

No. It's the PC that's toally blind to Alistairs feeling here.
Not cowardly.

Really? Is this the best you got? These so-called laughable excuses for "arguments"?
Pfffft.


EDIT: Just so you know, you'll get a special place in my mod. Lynx too. I needed some irritating bad guys to butcher anyway.

[Vicious]

Loghain may be a scumbag but his induction into the Grey Wardens is NO REASON to abandon an entire COUNTRY to the Darkspawn, The fact that Alistair is a Grey Warden and is willing to ABANDON THOUSANDS TO DIE just because his need for vengeance against ONE MAN didn't get fulfilled is... well it's pretty weak.

It really has nothing to do with Loghain and everything to do with Alistair abandoning his cause his friends and his country for the memory of a dead man.


Now granted in hindsight if he knew the Archdemon was bearing down on Denerim he might have stayed... but he left. And once everything is said and done HOW is he going to go back to the Grey Wardens after abandoning them for his own need for revenge?

It's not just Darkspawn, it's a BLIGHT.

In Alistair's own words, "Have fun ending the blight... or whatever."


But then, when you think about it, Alistair displays his beliefs early on in the game.

He doesn't like Daveth and has no idea why Duncan would recruit a cutpurse.

He didn't want to take Morrigan because she's an apostate.

Alistair doesn't believe the Grey Wardens 'need all the help they can get.' To him they are the Gold Wardens who are knightly and can do no wrong. You know why he thinks that? Probably just because he's a member.

/rant off

I love alistair but I won't deny that he is incredibly flawed. And im glad he is, makes him 1000x more interesting. Loghain is the same to me, cool but incredibly flawed, but I see a lot less apologists for him.

Mostly I see people scrambling to explain the action and inaction of their 'baby' Alistair.

Modifié par Vicious, 19 décembre 2009 - 10:59 .

[LynxAQ]

Indeed Vicious, the Alistair defense squad is out in full force in this post. To continue what you said about Davith and Alistair not really liking him. The irony is Duncan his hero was a thief and murderer, yet he has a problem with Davith. It is really odd. Like I said, Alistair's biggest flaw is idolising someone and putting them on a pedistal and ignoring anything bad about that person.



As for him standing with you through any decision you make, now that IS a gameplay plot mechanic. I can't believe for 1 second Alistair would of gone along with tainting Andraste's Ashes. If he wasnt so vital for the plot, Alistair would of turned on you in a second. He would of also turned on you when you sacrifice the elfs in the alienage in the deal with the blood mage.



But Alistair is blinded by vengeance when it comes to Loghain and he refuses to see any logic. Even tho you can say Duncan doing the same thing etc etc as Rioldan is questionable, I dont agree. Duncan is clearly made out to be quite pragmatic and looking for any opportunity to increase the grey warden numbers would great fighters. Loghain would of been the ideal situation.



As for people saying Loghain required no mercy, I disagree. I think he did get a little deluded and paranoid about Orlais coming into the country to "help" Fereldon and then not leaving. But was i really ALL paranoia? I mean if Orlais was allowed in and Arch Demon defeated, do you really think a nation like Orlais would of just packed up and leave when Fereldon was in such a weakened state? I think he may have taken his paranoia to far but I do think there was legit reasoning behind his fears. Remember Loghain had a hard past as well, not just Alistair, he grew up watching Orlesian soldiers kill and rape the Fereldon woman / children etc. He hates them. Some people use Alistairs past as an excuse for his childish selfish behaviour, while Loghain imo had a 10 times worst childhood.



I personally think that keeping Loghain aive and converting him to a GW when Fereldon desperately needs them, was the right decision at the time.



And for he person saying Rioldan was useless in the long run... lol?? If it wasnt for him, the arch demon would of been flying about still killing people. He actually contributed the most to the arch demons death imo. When you get to the top of Fort Drakon you are fighting a flightless weakened Arch Demon thanks to Rioldans sacrifice.