223 réponses à ce sujet

[LynxAQ]

And before people say the arch demons flies about in the last battle - that is nothing more than gameplay reasoning. Bioware never put animations in for dragons walking / running about. Laziness? Who knows. But thats why the arch demon "jumps" about instead of just walking.

[robertthebard]

What's hilarious here is the same people that applaud Alistair for leaving Ferelden to it's fate if you spare Loghain are all for killing Loghain for abandoning Cailin and the Wardens to die. Let's compare, shall we; Loghain leaving people to die to darkspawn == bad; Alistair leaving people to die to darkspawn != bad, because you let Loghain live. What's the difference here? Loghain did it first? If it's a crime punishable by execution for Loghain, then it should apply all the way across the board.



Lotion, you are the last person that should be accusing, or attempting to condemn anyone for a narrow world view. You are the person that ranted for I don't know how many pages in the Selfish Act thread about how doing the ritual can only be selfish, and that it isn't wise??? Yet you have the audacity to say that I'm letting my ego rule what I think? Again, I understand your position perfectly, your view is the only one that can be correct. This has been your position since I've become involved in discussions with you, and is the reason I left the last one after awarding you your Special Olympics trophy.



The interesting thing about this conversation, and the last one actually, is that there is no right or wrong answer. Opinions don't have to be right or wrong, as long as the person that has it believes it. I know this goes against everything you believe, but it's true. You can, however, continue with the insults to attempt to prove me wrong about this point, if you wish. It will just go to support what I have said about you in this response, and others. So feel free, I enjoy laughing at you.



Now, to address some finer points. If Alistair truly wants to avenge Duncan's death, which would indeed seem to be the only single person he cares about avenging, then the best way to do that would be to lay claim to his throne. Not wanting to be a leader isn't a reason not to, it's an excuse. "I'm afraid to do it, so I shouldn't have to". However, this will not stop him from trying to wrest it at the Landsmeet. Being afraid that you might view him differently isn't a reason, it's also an excuse, and, how can he be surprised at your reaction if you don't take him to Redcliffe the first time you go, and find out about his heritage from Arl Eamon. In fact, if you don't do Redcliffe first, which is entirely likely, since you don't have a treaty with the Arl, and you don't know that you're not just going to march to the elves, dwarves and mages to get your army together, there's no reason to not go handle the treaties first.



Perhaps Arl Eamon will recover while you're dealing with them. You have no not metagaming reason to believe otherwise. If you take the position that he might die before you get there, how would you know that going there first might prevent that? So, there is no reason, especially if you end up in a romance with Alistair, that he can't have built up some trust, especially if you're doing the goody good angles on all the treaties, save the dwarves anyway, as I don't really see any goody good way to do them. As a non-dwarf, you just pick one, because to you, they are all the same, and as a Dwarven Noble, you either admired Bhelen's tactics in the Origin, or you condemn him, and choose Harrowmont. No Lotion, as a dwarf noble, there is no reason not to choose Bhelen if you truly did admire the skill with which he set you up, no matter how things play out with Trian, but especially if you did kill Trian.



So, all that time, he's probably itching to go to Eamon, but won't try to force the issue. Why not? Because he knows he's going to be caught out in his biggest deception. Considering his track record with his little secret, it wouldn't surprise me if he hoped Eamon would die before you got there, so he would never have to expose himself as heir apparent to the throne. Before somebody starts screaming about him not being capable of such base thoughts, he's brooding the whole time about killing Loghain, to the point where he pulls a Loghain to get the crown at the Landsmeet. It's odd how Loghain can be condemned for wresting the crown from Anora, yet Alistair can be applauded for it, and both did it for selfish reasons.



I'll agree with Vicious, and add that the only reason Alistair could be excused, while Loghain is condemned is because they did find Alistair charming. I found Alistair to be an extremely well written character, as I did with Loghain, if the latter is a little off in the head. However, barring "who's your daddy", there are a lot of parallels between Alistair and Loghain. Not the least of which is that they can, or have betrayed you. The only difference being people are willing to overlook or dismiss Alistair's betrayal out of hand. "If you kill Loghain, he doesn't betray you". If I take Riordan at his word at the Landsmeet, and he is the senior Grey Warden present, and I believe him when he says there's a compelling reason to have as many Grey Wardens present as possible, then why would I refuse a candidate. Simply because Alistair, who threw a fit when he couldn't believe that his lying to me since he met me hurt my feelings, not to mention lied until he knew he was going to be found out, wants to kill Loghain, and throws a fit about that too?



My 10 year old grandson throws fits to get his way too, yet that tactic doesn't work for him, why should it work for a grown man that should know better? Simply because he's cute??? That's not going to stop a Blight, or Leliana would have stopped it single handedly.

[Vicious]

fantastic post robertthebard

[nos_astra]

robertthebard wrote...
Let's compare, shall we; Loghain leaving people to die to darkspawn ==
bad; Alistair leaving people to die to darkspawn != bad, because you
let Loghain live.

Loghain is leaving people to die, well knowing that without his intervention the darkspawn raid will win the battle and the people there will die. Many of them - plus all of the Grey Wardens of Ferelden (as far as he knows at that moment) plus the king plus the king's half-brother.

Alistair is just leaving, well knowing that with him leaving there's still a good chance to defeat the Blight. Loghain is there to replace him, he feels expendable. 

Don't know, Alistair never seemed to be the kind of guy who thinks of himself to be especially important.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LynxAQ wrote...

Indeed Vicious, the Alistair defense squad is out in full force in this post.

Really? I think reality squad would be closer to the truth.

But Alistair is blinded by vengeance when it comes to Loghain and he refuses to see any logic. Even tho you can say Duncan doing the same thing etc etc as Rioldan is questionable, I dont agree. Duncan is clearly made out to be quite pragmatic and looking for any opportunity to increase the grey warden numbers would great fighters. Loghain would of been the ideal situation.

Disagree all you want.
Either prove Duncan would have done that or don't use it as an argument.

As for people saying Loghain required no mercy, I disagree. I think he did get a little deluded and paranoid about Orlais coming into the country to "help" Fereldon and then not leaving. But was i really ALL paranoia? I mean if Orlais was allowed in and Arch Demon defeated, do you really think a nation like Orlais would of just packed up and leave when Fereldon was in such a weakened state? I think he may have taken his paranoia to far but I do think there was legit reasoning behind his fears. Remember Loghain had a hard past as well, not just Alistair, he grew up watching Orlesian soldiers kill and rape the Fereldon woman / children etc. He hates them. Some people use Alistairs past as an excuse for his childish selfish behaviour, while Loghain imo had a 10 times worst childhood.

LITTLE deluded?
Dude, he f***** his coutnry up. There's no little to it.

I personally think that keeping Loghain aive and converting him to a GW when Fereldon desperately needs them, was the right decision at the time.

Fereleden needs Grey Wardens, it doens't need Loghain.

robertthebard wrote...

What's hilarious here is the same
people that applaud Alistair for leaving Ferelden to it's fate if you
spare Loghain are all for killing Loghain for abandoning Cailin and the
Wardens to die. Let's compare, shall we; Loghain leaving people to die
to darkspawn == bad; Alistair leaving people to die to darkspawn !=
bad, because you let Loghain live. What's the difference here? Loghain
did it first? If it's a crime punishable by execution for Loghain, then
it should apply all the way across the board.

Well, let's see. When Alistair leaves you, it's because you betrayed everything he belives in. He leaves you AFTER you united the country. You got the support needed, you got the armies, and hte Grey Wardens from Orlais can finally come. He doesn't know a Grey Warden is needed to kill an Archdemon.
He leaves you fully ready and able to defend Ferelden and win.

Loghian on the other hand sets a trap to kill off thousands of his own and leaves them knowingly to a terrible death.

Loghain swore an oath to protect and serve the king...Al and Pc swore...wait, they never did swaer anything, now did they?

So no, I don't see any similarity there.

Lotion, you are the last person that should be accusing, or attempting
to condemn anyone for a narrow world view. You are the person that
ranted for I don't know how many pages in the Selfish Act thread about
how doing the ritual can only be selfish, and that it isn't wise??? Yet
you have the audacity to say that I'm letting my ego rule what I think?
Again, I understand your position perfectly, your view is the only one
that can be correct. This has been your position since I've become
involved in discussions with you, and is the reason I left the last one
after awarding you your Special Olympics trophy.

A view based on FACTS is not the same as a view based on wishfull thinking and deliberate ignorance of facts.
In that last threadI have clearly listed how and why the ritual is not a wise course of action - and hte poitns have never been debunked, so it stands. The selfishness of the ritual varries depending on the character.
Clear on that? Good.
Oh, you're Special Olymipcs thropy joke wasn't funny the first time and nobody cares about it.

The interesting thing about this conversation, and the last one
actually, is that there is no right or wrong answer. Opinions don't
have to be right or wrong, as long as the person that has it believes
it. I know this goes against everything you believe, but it's true. You
can, however, continue with the insults to attempt to prove me wrong
about this point, if you wish. It will just go to support what I have
said about you in this response, and others. So feel free, I enjoy
laughing at you.

Some wisdom at last. No, the oppinions dont' have to be right or wrong. Depends on what's the oppinion and what's it based on.
What I am "crusading" against is this redicolous character judgment that's so devoid of any actual thought that it sickens me.
Take for example, Alistair not telling you who his father is. Some literally jumped on it, claiming as a fact that's he's a douche because of that, completley ignoring his reasons. Because they clearly don't matter when judging someones character, right?<_< Becauseh e clearly MUST tell you, right?

Now, to address some finer points. If Alistair truly wants to avenge
Duncan's death, which would indeed seem to be the only single person he
cares about avenging, then the best way to do that would be to lay
claim to his throne. Not wanting to be a leader isn't a reason not to,
it's an excuse. "I'm afraid to do it, so I shouldn't have to". However,
this will not stop him from trying to wrest it at the Landsmeet. Being
afraid that you might view him differently isn't a reason, it's also an
excuse, and, how can he be surprised at your reaction if you don't take
him to Redcliffe the first time you go, and find out about his heritage
from Arl Eamon. In fact, if you don't do Redcliffe first, which is
entirely likely, since you don't have a treaty with the Arl, and you
don't know that you're not just going to march to the elves, dwarves
and mages to get your army together, there's no reason to not go handle
the treaties first.

You're confusing being afraid ot do something with being afraid you don't know how to do it.
For example - if oyu never had trainign wiht explosives and I tell you you should go an disarm a bomb, and you are reluctant to do so.... CONGRATULATIONS! you're a friggin coward and a whimp.

Alistair never learned the art of governing. Him wanting Eamon or Anora to rule is a very wise decision. Let those that have experience and knowledge do it.

And yes - being afraid he'll be viewd differently IS A reason. A damn good readon. Have you any idea how many people in real life keep various secrets simply because they don't want other people to treat them differently?
Heck, many keep some secrets from long-time friends, even spouses.

Even if you do all the treaties first, it's still roighly only a year of in-game time. No, he doens't have to tell you NOW and NO, you're not entitled to that knowledge.

[Original182]

robertthebard wrote...

What's hilarious here is the same people that applaud Alistair for leaving Ferelden to it's fate if you spare Loghain are all for killing Loghain for abandoning Cailin and the Wardens to die. Let's compare, shall we; Loghain leaving people to die to darkspawn == bad; Alistair leaving people to die to darkspawn != bad, because you let Loghain live. What's the difference here? Loghain did it first? If it's a crime punishable by execution for Loghain, then it should apply all the way across the board.

First of all, when Alistair left, nobody died, yet. Riordan, you and Loghain managed to defeat the darkspawn. To say the Alistair is punishable for something that might NOT have happened is quite a stretch. On the other hand, Cailan, Duncan, the Grey Wardens and a lot of soldiers died because Loghain asked to withdraw. This is fact.

The problem with hypothetical waters and choices is that you are using a choice to justify that Alistair is a wimp. I can also pick the choices to show that Alistair is brave.

If you harden Alistair and let Loghain live, Alistair didn't go get drunk. He came to his senses later on to regain his throne.
If you let Alistair duel Loghain and win, there isn't even an opportunity to let Loghain live and for Alistair to be a wimp. He then proceeds to become king, follow you to the archdemon and would offer to sacrifice himself. Does that sound like a wimp?
There are ways to make Alistair not a wimp. You are using one option to show that he is. Nobody is perfect.

You can, however, continue with the insults to attempt to prove me wrong about this point, if you wish. It will just go to support what I have said about you in this response, and others. So feel free, I enjoy laughing at you.

Which begs the question, who is more laughable? The people who insult you, or you for enjoying those "low-class" insults?

Now, to address some finer points. If Alistair truly wants to avenge Duncan's death, which would indeed seem to be the only single person he cares about avenging, then the best way to do that would be to lay claim to his throne. Not wanting to be a leader isn't a reason not to, it's an excuse. "I'm afraid to do it, so I shouldn't have to". However, this will not stop him from trying to wrest it at the Landsmeet. Being afraid that you might view him differently isn't a reason, it's also an excuse, and, how can he be surprised at your reaction if you don't take him to Redcliffe the first time you go, and find out about his heritage from Arl Eamon. In fact, if you don't do Redcliffe first, which is entirely likely, since you don't have a treaty with the Arl, and you don't know that you're not just going to march to the elves, dwarves and mages to get your army together, there's no reason to not go handle the treaties first.

Once again, you are picking a scenario which makes Alistair a wimp, and sticks wholly by it. Maybe that's why people are calling you close-minded. You are ignoring the scenarios that makes Alistair strong.

One way to look at it is this; if despite your very best efforts, Alistair NEVER grows a backbone, then you can say Alistair is a wimp. But that's not the case. It is very possible to encourage Alistair to be strong and brave, using a few conversation options too.

It's like raising your 10-year old son (Alistair). You befriend the bully (Loghain) at his school because his father is your boss, and befriending him may gain you a promotion, which results in more money and the greater good for your family, and your son will benefit from it too. But if your son so much as gets upset because you're befriending the bully, he's considered weak and a wimp for not seeing the bigger picture.

You don't encourage him. You don't use positive reinforcement. He grows up with no confidence and doesn't reach his max potential. Is he then a failure since the beginning? Do you judge your son by how well he does when he's dealt the worst possible of cards?

No, you raise your son praising him, encouraging him, teaching him. You build his self confidence, and he will reach his max potential.

This is what you're doing, you're judging Alistair by his worst. You act shocked that Alistair runs away and gets drunk if you deal him the worst possible cards, betraying him, ignoring his interests.

Alistair's max potential is not him running away. Alistair's max potential is he remains king, a GREAT king. He just needs encouragement.

So, all that time, he's probably itching to go to Eamon, but won't try to force the issue. Why not? Because he knows he's going to be caught out in his biggest deception. Considering his track record with his little secret, it wouldn't surprise me if he hoped Eamon would die before you got there, so he would never have to expose himself as heir apparent to the throne. Before somebody starts screaming about him not being capable of such base thoughts, he's brooding the whole time about killing Loghain, to the point where he pulls a Loghain to get the crown at the Landsmeet. It's odd how Loghain can be condemned for wresting the crown from Anora, yet Alistair can be applauded for it, and both did it for selfish reasons.

You are drawing way too much assumptions from him keeping his heritage from you. This is where people use Occam's razor on you. So because he didn't tell you he's the bastard son, therefore he wants Arl Eamon to die to hide his existence? The part where he told you he missed Arl Eamon when he refused to see him at the Chantry, him treasuring the locket Arl Eamon glued back together totally escaped your mind? He would already get angry at you if you didn't manage to save Isolde, but he would be delighted to see Arl Eamon die? 

The simple reason he kept his heritage is that he's afraid people will treat him differently if he told everyone he was royalty. His life in the Chantry was hard due to his heritage, so it's not strange that he grows some hatred towards it.

The only difference being people are willing to overlook or dismiss Alistair's betrayal out of hand. "If you kill Loghain, he doesn't betray you". If I take Riordan at his word at the Landsmeet, and he is the senior Grey Warden present, and I believe him when he says there's a compelling reason to have as many Grey Wardens present as possible, then why would I refuse a candidate. Simply because Alistair, who threw a fit when he couldn't believe that his lying to me since he met me hurt my feelings, not to mention lied until he knew he was going to be found out, wants to kill Loghain, and throws a fit about that too?

My 10 year old grandson throws fits to get his way too, yet that tactic doesn't work for him, why should it work for a grown man that should know better? Simply because he's cute??? That's not going to stop a Blight, or Leliana would have stopped it single handedly.

Try befriending the bully (Loghain) who makes fun of your son (Alistair), and tell me he's childish if he throws a fit at you. If you were any ounce of a father, you would never do anything to hurt your son like that, even if that bully was the son of your boss.

This is the problem. You are completely ignoring Alistair's feelings. His only father figure, Duncan, was killed because of Loghain, and you are judging him for him getting upset that you decide to spare Loghain?

Once again, you judge people based on his worst. I rather judge people based on their best potential.

[PsychoMunkys]

Alaister is coward , defend him al you whant , he is a greywarden so he needs to help the poeple en defeat de blight, beging king would make that posible. but he cry's like a baby if you make him king.



making logain a graywarden would make perfect sense but yet Alstair starts crying.



All you poeple that say well you would't want al the responbilty wel no



but if your a greywarden ?

[Cybercat999]

Wth do you mean it makes sense to let Loghain live? I was waiting entire game to get my hands on him and make him pay for all he did.

[nos_astra]

Cybercat999 wrote...
Wth do you mean it makes sense to let Loghain live? I was waiting entire game to get my hands on him and make him pay for all he did.

That's probably because Loghain is the big baddo and little boys find it totally cool to befriend them so they can kick ass too. Some of the glory might rub off on them.

Modifié par klarabella, 19 décembre 2009 - 01:35 .

[robertthebard]

Even if you do all the treaties first, it's still roighly only a year of in-game time. No, he doens't have to tell you NOW and NO, you're not entitled to that knowledge.

LOL??? Alistair has deferred leadership to you. As the "commanding officer", I am entitled to any information that will help me stop Loghain, and fight the Blight. If, as you postulate, I am not entitled to that information, why does he cutscene stop the party at Redcliffe the first time you go to break it to you? Why does he wait until then, if you do Redcliffe last? Simply because he knows you're about to find out if we can save Arl Eamon. Of course, if you don't have him with you, he still won't tell you, and if you ask him any time prior to Redcliffe if he's with you, and any time prior to saving Eamon if you don't, he will lie to you.



Isn't this the same logic you use to say that Morrigan can't be trusted? Morrigan has an agenda, and if you don't do the ritual she leaves. If Alistair doesn't get to fulfill his agenda, he will leave the party. If you licked his boots after his side quest, he'll leave Ferelden. So, Morrigan and Alistair are the same. Yet you condemn Morrigan for wanting her agenda, and applaud Alistair for wanting his. Back, ye hypocrit. Neither person's agenda is for the good of Ferelden, as far as we know with Morrigan, other than it does leave the last two Ferelden Wardens alive, and Alistair's is revenge. Which is also not for the good of Ferelden, but to satisfy him. It's astounding the mental gymnastics that leads to the conclusion that one party member that leaves is evil, and the other is perfectly justified, even though both do so because they didn't get to fulfill their agenda.



I know, "But Morrigan disagrees with your decisions". Yeah, and depending on what options you want to play, so does Alistair. If you let Isolde sacrifice herself, which is the least she could do considering all the havoc she caused, Alistair will confront you in camp. I haven't killed Connor yet, so I don't know if he confronts you about that, but it's likely, and he'll also thank you for sparing both.



However, if you do the Blood Magic ritual, he'll disagree with you. Which is the point. How does he feel about killing the elves in favor of getting the werewolves? Does he find it peachy to kill the mages and get the templar army? So you see, simply disagreeing with valid decisions in game shouldn't be considered evil. However, it's the biggest argument in favor of Morrigan being evil on these forums. If that's a qualification for evil, then Alistair fits right in, depending on how you want to play, right?



The level of hypocrisy is ever increasing, isn't it? Actually, if you sent me to disarm a bomb, I'd do it. I have training in that. I was in the Army, you know, or maybe you didn't know. I can build 'em, and build 'em out of things that may very well surprise you. I guess you'd better find a better argument. I blew things up in the Army, and I'll tell you, making tank traps is kinda fun.

Alistair never learned the art of governing. Him wanting Eamon or Anora to rule is a very wise decision. Let those that have experience and knowledge do it.



And yes - being afraid he'll be viewd differently IS A reason. A damn good readon. Have you any idea how many people in real life keep various secrets simply because they don't want other people to treat them differently?

Heck, many keep some secrets from long-time friends, even spouses.

This is an excuse, not a reason. He's trusted you to do his job, which is to be the senior Grey Warden, up until you deny him his agenda, anyway. However, your argument, instead of countering my supposition that he would wish that Eamon died before you got there, it more supports it. After all, if Eamon dies, and you didn't take him to Redcliffe the first time you went, you'd never know. Thanks for the unwitting support.

Some wisdom at last. No, the oppinions dont' have to be right or wrong. Depends on what's the oppinion and what's it based on.

What I am "crusading" against is this redicolous character judgment that's so devoid of any actual thought that it sickens me.

Take for example, Alistair not telling you who his father is. Some literally jumped on it, claiming as a fact that's he's a douche because of that, completley ignoring his reasons. Because they clearly don't matter when judging someones character, right? Becauseh e clearly MUST tell you, right?

There is no qualifier. If a person believes their opinion to be right, they are. If you disagree, that's your opinion. You are no more right than they are. So much for your wisdom. This statement invalidates everything you've said. Not just here, either, since you possess no wisdom is apparent by this statement, how can anyone take anything you say about being wise or not seriously? As Morrigan points out, "The truth does not simply go away". Hiding who he really is is the supreme act of cowardice. Why? Because of the fact that he does so out of fear. He's afraid you might view him differently, that he might be put forward to take the crown, etc etc. When you are unwilling to face your fears, and do what needs to be done, you are a coward, that's what being a coward means.

Merriam Webster...

Main Entry: cow·ard

Pronunciation: \\ˈkau̇(-ə)rd\\

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French cuard, from cue, coe tail, from Latin cauda

Date: 13th century

: one who shows disgraceful fear or timidity

— coward adjective

A view based on FACTS is not the same as a view based on wishfull thinking and deliberate ignorance of facts.

In that last threadI have clearly listed how and why the ritual is not a wise course of action - and hte poitns have never been debunked, so it stands. The selfishness of the ritual varries depending on the character.

Clear on that? Good.

Oh, you're Special Olymipcs thropy joke wasn't funny the first time and nobody cares about it.

Here are the facts in this discussion:



Fact: If you don't harden Alistair, and don't kill Loghain, he will leave Ferelden.

Fact: Loghain leaving people to die in Ostagar is a crime that if you don't kill him for, you are an idiot.

Fact: If Alistair leaves people to die in Ferelden because you don't kill Loghain, it's perfectly acceptable, and is to be expected.

Fact: Grey Wardens are supposed to stop a Blight.

Fact: If you don't kill Loghain, the last fact is up for debate.

Fact: If you don't do the Dark Ritual, Morrigan leaves, this means she's evil.

Fact: If you don't kill Loghain, and Alistair leaves, you are evil.



Yeah, lots of interstingly hypocritical facts there.

[Basher of Glory]

To give Loghain another chance would be the same as to give this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy an employment contract instead of executing him.
Why should he be employed by the FBI? Well, he knows the ways and the thinking of serial killers, he MIGHT be of use to track those down in future.

The agents who finally caught him, shudder with disgust due to that descision and immediately quit their service. Therefore they'll considered "whimps" from now on, are berated as "dreamers" and "immature", not "seeing the whole picture" etc.

I just wonder, if the people who would give Loghain a chance of redemption have somewhere an ethical barrier beyond which all discussions would end.

Modifié par Baher of Glory, 19 décembre 2009 - 01:46 .

[EricHVela]

Fact: Alistair has two possible duties, yet they are mutually exclusive.

Make Alistair king and make Loghain sacrifice himself = Alistair keeping to his duty as king and Loghain meeting justice of his own doing. Can anything be worse than having your soul shredded?

Alistair's whining is annoying, but he can make a good king if you manipulate him correctly. (See in-game epilogue.)

[EricHVela]

Baher of Glory wrote...

To give Loghain another chance would be the same as to give this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy an employment contract instead of executing him.
Why should he be employed by the FBI? Well, he knows the ways and the thinking of serial killers, he MIGHT be of use to track those down in future.

The agents who finally caught him, shudder with disgust due to that descision and immediately quit their service. Therefore they'll considered "whimps" from now on, are berated as "dreamers" and "immature", not "seeing the whole picture" etc.

I just wonder, if the people who would give Loghain a chance of redemption have somewhere an ethical barrier beyond which all discussions would end.

Way to put it in to equivalent perspective. NOT.

Tell us all how Loghain's situation is the same as Bundy's?

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 19 décembre 2009 - 01:51 .

[vihart]

Fact: you can spare Loghain and also make Allistair King, without leaving Ferelden (making him marry Anora)

Fact: you can refuse to do the ritual and ask Morrigan to stay (I did it)



Allistair is weak, not a coward, and the romantic type. His decision at the landsmeet is not racional, but it's logical, although I would have prefer more options in this point, like make Riordan explains why it was so important to recruit Loghain. Maybe with that vital information Allistair and my character would have agreed to spare Loghain's life.

[ejoslin]

Hmmm, Alistair NOT telling you that he's the heir to the throne endangers you -- Loghain/Howe have killed or tried to kill everyone who would have a claim (killed the Couslands, poisoned Arl Eamon, imprisoned Vaughn). He also most likely was the one who sent the darkspawn to the towers (interesting dialog if you have extremely high cunning at Ostegar). I don't think anyone has attempted to justify what Loghain did. But the PC may not care much. Why would an elf or dwarf or a mage care about Logain and the human armies? For those PCs, it may be better for them for the humans to no longer have rule. They may very well only care about ending the blight and going along with the political bs is the only way to get the human troops, just like the conditions set to get the other troops.

Loghain did not believe there was a blight. The arch demon hadn't shown itself. And he didn't know why Gray Wardens were essential. Alistair, while maybe not knowing WHY Gray Wardens were needed, knew full well that there was a full blight going on and that Gray Wardens were needed and chose to leave anyway.

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 décembre 2009 - 01:59 .

[robertthebard]

Cybercat999 wrote...

Wth do you mean it makes sense to let Loghain live? I was waiting entire game to get my hands on him and make him pay for all he did.

As odd as this may sound, I have done much the same.  Revenge may be petty, but that doesn't mean that it isn't fun.

Regarding viewing Alistair at his worst, I am using an actual playthrough to pull my examples from.  The events that I have laid out all occurred in one of my games.  As you can see by my profile, and the achievement list, I have played a few times all the way through.  My last playthrough, where I actually die killing the Archdemon is at the last treaty, and I've already saved Eamon.  So I'm quite close to finishing that one, and getting the all possible endings achievement.  So it's not hypothetical, it's possible to play out exactly as I have laid out.  As far as Alistair leaving people to die being false, do you really think, all things considered in that save that he hopes you succeed?

I am well aware that Alistair will stick around to be king, I've done that ending, even sparing Loghain so I could get the achievement.  However, canon for your game is what happens in your game.  So, in one save, everything that I have said about Alistair either is true, or could be.(This regarding wishing that Eamon might die so he never has to tell you who he is.)  What happens in your save games has absolutely no bearing on what happens in mine.

[robertthebard]

Baher of Glory wrote...

To give Loghain another chance would be the same as to give this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy an employment contract instead of executing him.
Why should he be employed by the FBI? Well, he knows the ways and the thinking of serial killers, he MIGHT be of use to track those down in future.

The agents who finally caught him, shudder with disgust due to that descision and immediately quit their service. Therefore they'll considered "whimps" from now on, are berated as "dreamers" and "immature", not "seeing the whole picture" etc.

I just wonder, if the people who would give Loghain a chance of redemption have somewhere an ethical barrier beyond which all discussions would end.

Wow, that is reaching.  All of a sudden, our ingame decisions affect what we would do in the real world?  RPG's are, to quote Buffy Sommers, "Come as you aren't".  If you really have this much trouble separating reality from fantasy, you should really seek professional help.

[Basher of Glory]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Tell us all how Loghain's situation is the same as Bundy's?

There is no egality of situations.

But the ethical question is comparable. That was my point.

[Basher of Glory]

robertthebard wrote...

If you really have this much trouble separating reality from fantasy, you should really seek professional help.

This would be in vain. The so called professionals wouldn't believe me, when I tell them, that I was sent by the MAKER to post the truth on this forum.

[robertthebard]

Baher of Glory wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

Tell us all how Loghain's situation is the same as Bundy's?

There is no egality of situations.

But the ethical question is comparable. That was my point.

There is no comparison.  These situations are totally seperated by the fact that one is reality, and the other a fantasy game.  For the sake of argument, how many bandits have you killed today?  In the last week?  How many darkspawn have you killed?  Get the picture here?  What I may or may not do in a video game in no way reflects how I may handle a RL situation.  When is the last time you loaded a quick save to fix a mistake in dialog?

[robertthebard]

double post.

Modifié par robertthebard, 19 décembre 2009 - 02:16 .

[Vicious]

Let's throw out metagame knowledge for a second here and put ourselves in the context of the game.



I see a lot of blah blah blah Logain did this so he can't possibly justify what he did blah blah.



I can actually agree with that. But this isn't about Loghain. It's about Alistair leaving thousands in Denerim to die because he didn't get to see Loghain get eviscerated and his blood splash on his daughter.



Seriously, Duncan would be outright ashamed of his protege doing such a thing. To abandon Grey Wardens in the middle of a BLIGHT? A BLIGHT!





It's metagame to say "oh Denerim survived so you can't be mad at Alistair for turning his back on them" No one knew WTF was going to happen. So by that it makes Alistair look even worse. IF he went off and battled the Darkspawn and simply refused to join the party while THAT GUY was around, then that would be great and no one could say anything derisive about him.





Instead he goes off and gets drunk while the Archdemon ravages the capital of Ferelden. Teagan says prior to battle that the death toll will be staggering even if they make it in time to save the city. So you can bet quite a few people died. It is a Grey Warden's duty to protect the world from the Blight, and sadly Alistair turned his back on that. Obviously a highly emotional decision.





That said I can't help but lol at those who act like Alistair can do no wrong and his anger at the end or his character in general is flawless and justified in everything he did. The guy acted in anger and made a wildly selfish decision that paints his entire character bad.



It was sad to see and I don't care what David Gaider says, it seemed really out of character for him. Maybe if he did less crying 'Duncan's dead...' and more 'LOGHAIN MUST DIE!' then I'd buy his anger... but he didn't.





Alistair's actions can't be justified as 'good.' by any stretch or you're making excuses for the character. Whatever you feel about Loghain, It's a very sad thing for him to do. Just to make 'party space' lol

[Lotion Soronarr]

PsychoMunkys wrote...

Alaister is coward , defend him al you whant , he is a greywarden so he needs to help the poeple en defeat de blight, beging king would make that posible. but he cry's like a baby if you make him king.

making logain a graywarden would make perfect sense but yet Alstair starts crying.

All you poeple that say well you would't want al the responbilty wel no

but if your a greywarden ?

A Grey Warden should not be a king. It is frawned upon. They remain politicly neutral as a rule
But since Alistair was the only heir Maric had...

And no, a GW doens't need to be king to defend hte people. Didn't Alistair help you gather the armies and unite Ferelden to face the BLight? Even if he walks away after that, he still did his part - a friggin great part.

LOL??? Alistair has deferred leadership to you. As the "commanding
officer", I am entitled to any information that will help me stop
Loghain, and fight the Blight. If, as you postulate, I am not entitled
to that information, why does he cutscene stop the party at Redcliffe
the first time you go to break it to you? Why does he wait until then,
if you do Redcliffe last? Simply because he knows you're about to find
out if we can save Arl Eamon. Of course, if you don't have him with
you, he still won't tell you, and if you ask him any time prior to
Redcliffe if he's with you, and any time prior to saving Eamon if you
don't, he will lie to you.

Why? Because he considers it a fitting time to tell you, that's why.
You didn't NEED that information up to that point - frankly, you don't need it untill Eamon gets better. And even then you don't really need it to stop Loghian. Eamon or Anora both could take the throne.

Isn't this the same logic you use to say that Morrigan can't be
trusted? Morrigan has an agenda, and if you don't do the ritual she
leaves. If Alistair doesn't get to fulfill his agenda, he will leave
the party. If you licked his boots after his side quest, he'll leave
Ferelden. So, Morrigan and Alistair are the same. Yet you condemn
Morrigan for wanting her agenda, and applaud Alistair for wanting his.
Back, ye hypocrit. Neither person's agenda is for the good of Ferelden,
as far as we know with Morrigan, other than it does leave the last two
Ferelden Wardens alive, and Alistair's is revenge. Which is also not
for the good of Ferelden, but to satisfy him. It's astounding the
mental gymnastics that leads to the conclusion that one party member
that leaves is evil, and the other is perfectly justified, even though
both do so because they didn't get to fulfill their agenda.

Hehe...again with this? Oh, ye faulty logic!

How wrong you are...oh how wrong.
Alistairs agenda is to save Ferelden. He does so, by helping you fight and secure armies and uniting the country. He does not lie to you and things he did said were verified by others.
Morrigans agenda is unknown. Half of the important things she said cannot be verified .

And Morigan isn't evil because she leaves. She's evil because she's evil.

The level of hypocrisy is ever increasing, isn't it?

The level of hypocrisy is ever increasing, isn't it? Actually, if you
sent me to disarm a bomb, I'd do it. I have training in that. I was in
the Army, you know, or maybe you didn't know. I can build 'em, and
build 'em out of things that may very well surprise you. I guess you'd
better find a better argument. I blew things up in the Army, and I'll
tell you, making tank traps is kinda fun.

Aaaaaand the award for COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT goes to you!
Really... the point is what if you DIDN'T have the knowledge.

I'd love to tear appart the rest of your feeble attmpts at argumenting, but I got to run. I'll tackle them later, unless someone beats me to it. It shouldn't be hard really.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

A Grey Warden should not be a king. It is frawned upon. They remain politicly neutral as a rule
But since Alistair was the only heir Maric had...

And no, a GW doens't need to be king to defend hte people. Didn't Alistair help you gather the armies and unite Ferelden to face the BLight? Even if he walks away after that, he still did his part - a friggin great part.

So if this is all that's needed, I guess the GW's can pack their bags and leave, they got the army together, after all.

Why? Because he considers it a fitting time to tell you, that's why.
You didn't NEED that information up to that point - frankly, you don't need it untill Eamon gets better. And even then you don't really need it to stop Loghian. Eamon or Anora both could take the throne.

Again, no.  He tells you because he knows you're going to find out anyway, otherwise why bother to hide it in the first place?  You're running in circles here.  Since, according to this post, we don't need it until Eamon recovers, what happens if Eamon doesn't recover?  Better question, since you put this out, why tell us before we actually manage to save Eamon?  Isn't more to save face than anything else at this point?  Strange that Eamon would think we do need it then, isn't it?  I mean, if it's so irrelevant to the Landsmeet, why even add it to the plot of the game?

Hehe...again with this? Oh, ye faulty logic!

How wrong you are...oh how wrong.
Alistairs agenda is to save Ferelden. He does so, by helping you fight and secure armies and uniting the country. He does not lie to you and things he did said were verified by others.
Morrigans agenda is unknown. Half of the important things she said cannot be verified .

Apparently Alistair's agenda is unkown too, since it seems at the Landsmeet his only agenda is to kill Loghain.  He does lie to you, directly.  There is a dialog early where you can ask him who his father is.  He lies.  The simple fact that you choose to ignore this shows me that you're not trying to prove you right, but me wrong.  However, since the dialog does exist in game, and the oppurtunities for him to come clean exist well before Redcliffe, he is lying to you every single day, by allowing you to live in the dark about who he truly is.  He only finally comes clean when he knows he's probably going to be sold out anyway.

This shows that he knows he's important to both achieveing his hidden agenda, killing Loghain, and saving Ferelden, but allowed fear to motivate him into not revealing this to you before he absolutely felt like he had to.  This whole topic is full of "He's not a wimp for being afraid you might view him differently, and he's afraid he might have to become King and make decisions that affect the lives of other people.  Really, I'm not making this up.  Yet the fact that he is afraid of these things means that he's not a coward.  Doesn't that seem a bit contradictory to you?  I'm under the impression that letting fear run your life means that you are a coward.

And Morigan isn't evil because she leaves. She's evil because she's evil.

Aaaaaand the award for COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT goes to you!
Really... the point is what if you DIDN'T have the knowledge.

You mean, about Alistair being the rightful King?  Funny that, I was going to ask you the same thing.  One of us is missing the point.  If Eamon had died, or you never found the Urn, or the ashes didn't work, all speculative here, since you opened the door, would Alistair, after approximately a year together facing life and death every day, deem that maybe it's time to stop hiding who he is and take some action towards it, or would he continue to live the lie?  His track record on the subject isn't very good so far, is it?

I'd love to tear appart the rest of your feeble attmpts at argumenting, but I got to run. I'll tackle them later, unless someone beats me to it. It shouldn't be hard really.

Yeah, you really tear me up.  I laugh so hard at your feeble attempts to prove everybody but you is wrong that I just don't know if I'll survive another day.  However, I'm willing to risk it, so feel free.

[robertthebard]

Well, let's see. When Alistair leaves you, it's because you betrayed everything he belives in. He leaves you AFTER you united the country. You got the support needed, you got the armies, and hte Grey Wardens from Orlais can finally come. He doesn't know a Grey Warden is needed to kill an Archdemon.

He leaves you fully ready and able to defend Ferelden and win.



Loghian on the other hand sets a trap to kill off thousands of his own and leaves them knowingly to a terrible death.



Loghain swore an oath to protect and serve the king...Al and Pc swore...wait, they never did swaer anything, now did they?



So no, I don't see any similarity there.

Your hypocrisy about this subject cracks me up. Even more so because you are evidently blind to it. On one hand, the Grey Wardens are supposed to stop the Blight at all costs, and on the other, when it better suits your argument, they aren't pledged to do anything at all. At all cost may include, btw, accepting that 3 Grey Wardens may not be enough, and at the Landsmeet, that's all there are in Ferelden. Your supposition that the Orlesian Wardens can now come to stop the Blight is true, but they can't possibly get to Denerim in time. How long do you suppose that would take? 4-5 months? You are aware that they actually have to travel that, right? They don't just use the area transition, and magically teleport there in a matter of seconds.



By the Landsmeet, do you think you have that long? That's sending a messenger to them to let them know they can come, and assumes that they are just sitting at the border waiting for word, and then getting to Denerim, or actually, they would probably go to Redcliffe first, since that's where everyone seems to think it's going down, only to have to turn around and go back the way they came to get to Denerim due to Lake Calenhad being between them and where they want to go. So no, while possible to get them, they will not arrive in time to do anyone any good.