223 réponses à ce sujet

[menasure]

if there is ever a game made with more incompetent rulers this has to be it because they prove to be very human.
from the moment on that Duncan is killed Alistair starts slipping from his duty as grey warden by focussing on revenge instead of the real threat: the blight. the only -presumed- duty a grey warden has is stopping the blight yet when after Alistair learns that arl Eamon has been poisoned by Loghain it conveniently turns out that Alistair is a bastard son of Maric and that he has hidden it all the time. this is a suggestion that Alistair is up to something entirely different than focussing on the blight because you might get some support in redcliffe but there is no treaty with them. yet if you played the noble origin yourself then it is clearly stated that you really should not look for your lost brother but concentrate on the blight instead despite whatever happened to him.

Alistair proves to be the exception because despite of a village and a castle completely overrun by undead it is supposedly that important to save Eamon and settle the matter of rulership afterward despite the fact that there might not be an army left to speak off. so all of a sudden the story is not that much about stopping the blight anymore, it's about revenge and rulership under the rationalization off 'uniting Ferelden against the blight'.

the problem with this scenario is: you are asked to gather your allies before the landsmeet. why is that? the treaties only apply for supporting the grey wardens against the darkspawn, not to force someone into political power. at best having these allied armies gives you a bargaining position because since you are a grey warden you can unite these with whatever army a ruler has ... except nobody bargains.

all of a sudden you are forced yourself to focus on something you have no business whatsoever with: who gets to rule while there is no talk about how much armies can be gathered or remain amongst the humans whatsoever while this is your true concern as a grey warden. if Ferelden falls then it's game over, with or without petty politics.

if "you" -err who is supposed to win exactly?- win the landsmeet then Alistair proves that he was more out on revenge than anything else with his whole Loghain fit and in some scenarios he abandons his grey warden duty all together.Ser Jory was never so lucky to get away with desertion because it is a war situation you are in whether you like it or not after all.

Worst of all: Alistair might very well prove himself worse than Loghain, not necessarily because he makes the wrong decision but because an unhardened Alistair rarely makes a decision while it is certainly very needed to have someone making the decisions in such troubled times... oh well at least he won't have Howe as 'advisor' i guess because that one gets his death without trial every time and that is exactly what Alistair had in mind for Loghain too. it is one of the few decisions he really wants to make in game.

Modifié par menasure, 19 décembre 2009 - 03:27 .

[robertthebard]

Howe does kind of force the issue. He will not surrender. It would be out of character for him to do so. Someone did speculate about having him at the Landsmeet being handy though, although I don't really know what good it would do.

[skotie]

menasure wrote...

if there is ever a game made with more incompetent rulers this has to be it because they prove to be very human.
from the moment on that Duncan is killed Alistair starts slipping from his duty as grey warden by focussing on revenge instead of the real threat: the blight. the only -presumed- duty a grey warden has is stopping the blight yet when after Alistair learns that arl Eamon has been poisoned by Loghain it conveniently turns out that Alistair is a bastard son of Maric and that he has hidden it all the time. this is a suggestion that Alistair is up to something entirely different than focussing on the blight because you might get some support in redcliffe but there is no treaty with them. yet if you played the noble origin yourself then it is clearly stated that you really should not look for your lost brother but concentrate on the blight instead despite whatever happened to him.

Alistair proves to be the exception because despite of a village and a castle completely overrun by undead it is supposedly that important to save Eamon and settle the matter of rulership afterward despite the fact that there might not be an army left to speak off. so all of a sudden the story is not that much about stopping the blight anymore, it's about revenge and rulership under the rationalization off 'uniting Ferelden against the blight'.

the problem with this scenario is: you are asked to gather your allies before the landsmeet. why is that? the treaties only apply for supporting the grey wardens against the darkspawn, not to force someone into political power. at best having these allied armies gives you a bargaining position because since you are a grey warden you can unite these with whatever army a ruler has ... except nobody bargains.

all of a sudden you are forced yourself to focus on something you have no business whatsoever with: who gets to rule while there is no talk about how much armies can be gathered or remain amongst the humans whatsoever while this is your true concern as a grey warden. if Ferelden falls then it's game over, with or without petty politics.

if "you" -err who is supposed to win exactly?- win the landsmeet then Alistair proves that he was more out on revenge than anything else with his whole Loghain fit and in some scenarios he abandons his grey warden duty all together.Ser Jory was never so lucky to get away with desertion because it is a war situation you are in whether you like it or not after all.

Worst of all: Alistair might very well prove himself worse than Loghain, not necessarily because he makes the wrong decision but because an unhardened Alistair rarely makes a decision while it is certainly very needed to have someone making the decisions in such troubled times... oh well at least he won't have Howe as 'advisor' i guess because that one gets his death without trial every time and that is exactly what Alistair had in mind for Loghain too. it is one of the few decisions he really wants to make in game.

While I kinda get what your getting at, you should also note that while it may seem like Alistar is only out for himself, so to speak and your getting mixed up in affairs that really aren't your own, your PC honestly should want revenge for what happened at Ostagar just as much as Alistair.

Putting that fact aside however if you speak to Alistair and Morrigan in Lottering when you first enter you find out that Alistair thinks your best bet for help  is Redcliffe, Morrigan is the one who suggests to immediately go after Loghain in Denerim, when I here her say that in game I really start to wonder.... obviously she joined the party to help us with the blight, and here the first thing she says is to go kill Loghain so you can recruit allies without worrying about him. Alistair on the other hand really just suggest Redcliffe for help first because, unknown to the PC at the time, he is a bastard and he knows the people there, I also believe thats his home town unless I'm mistaken. On top of that its a human village/town and he is a human, who better to trust and refer for help then your hometown.

As far as saving Eamon goes well, Alistair is naturally a good alignment character, he does not just abandon people that need help, try to play the good knight in shineing armor and all your in game actions will likely net you Alistair approval rating. The fact that he is family too surely influences him a bit.

The allies for the landsmeet thing I figure is just how Bioware wanted events to play out, it didn't make much sense to me honestly, youd think there would be an option to assassinate Loghain as well but there isn't.

[DPSSOC]

menasure wrote...

if there is ever a game made with more incompetent rulers this has to be it because they prove to be very human.
from the moment on that Duncan is killed Alistair starts slipping from his duty as grey warden by focussing on revenge instead of the real threat: the blight. the only -presumed- duty a grey warden has is stopping the blight yet when after Alistair learns that arl Eamon has been poisoned by Loghain it conveniently turns out that Alistair is a bastard son of Maric and that he has hidden it all the time. this is a suggestion that Alistair is up to something entirely different than focussing on the blight because you might get some support in redcliffe but there is no treaty with them. yet if you played the noble origin yourself then it is clearly stated that you really should not look for your lost brother but concentrate on the blight instead despite whatever happened to him.

Alistair suggest going to Arl Eamon for help because A) you will need the human armies to face the blight,  Arl Eamon is a man of influence within Fereldan politics, C) He is someone Alistair believes they can trust, we have no such certainties about other human nobles, and D) Eamon, as Cailan's uncle has the best claim to the throne (aside from him but he doesn't want us to know that.  I'll explain latr why D is important but A-C all involve gathering support against the Blight, because you don't have a treaty to compel the nobility to help you need to take the long road.

menasure wrote...

Alistair proves to be the exception because despite of a village and a castle completely overrun by undead it is supposedly that important to save Eamon and settle the matter of rulership afterward despite the fact that there might not be an army left to speak off. so all of a sudden the story is not that much about stopping the blight anymore, it's about revenge and rulership under the rationalization off 'uniting Ferelden against the blight'.

the problem with this scenario is: you are asked to gather your allies before the landsmeet. why is that? the treaties only apply for supporting the grey wardens against the darkspawn, not to force someone into political power. at best having these allied armies gives you a bargaining position because since you are a grey warden you can unite these with whatever army a ruler has ... except nobody bargains.

The matter of rulership is important for a very simple reason, only the king can issue orders to the entire army.  There is no Fereldan Armed Forces there are simply soldiers who owe allegiance to a particular Bann, Arl, Teryn, etc.  While the King would have his own soldiers they're not in large enough numbers to wage effective war against another nation or the Blight.  So when there is need to go to war the King calls on the nobles to send their soldiers (see Human Noble Origin).  Without a King there is no one who can send out that order so you need to establish who's in charge or it doesn't matter if Fereldan has an army of 3 million mages, golems, werewolves, and the Maker himself because you can't get them to rally under a single banner.

As for gathering your allies before the Landsmeet it's rather simple, you may need to fight Loghain's armies.  Arl Eamon doesn't have the men to take on Loghain and all his supporters by himself, using the treaties to gather your allies gives you the military power you need to A) fight Loghain if you must and  Make the idea of fighting less appealing.

menasure wrote...

if "you" -err who is supposed to win exactly?- win the landsmeet then Alistair proves that he was more out on revenge than anything else with his whole Loghain fit and in some scenarios he abandons his grey warden duty all together.Ser Jory was never so lucky to get away with desertion because it is a war situation you are in whether you like it or not after all.

Worst of all: Alistair might very well prove himself worse than Loghain, not necessarily because he makes the wrong decision but because an unhardened Alistair rarely makes a decision while it is certainly very needed to have someone making the decisions in such troubled times... oh well at least he won't have Howe as 'advisor' i guess because that one gets his death without trial every time and that is exactly what Alistair had in mind for Loghain too. it is one of the few decisions he really wants to make in game.

It's not revenge he's after, it's justice, revenge is just a fortunate by product.

[robertthebard]

skotie wrote...

While I kinda get what your getting at, you should also note that while it may seem like Alistar is only out for himself, so to speak and your getting mixed up in affairs that really aren't your own, your PC honestly should want revenge for what happened at Ostagar just as much as Alistair.

Putting that fact aside however if you speak to Alistair and Morrigan in Lottering when you first enter you find out that Alistair thinks your best bet for help  is Redcliffe, Morrigan is the one who suggests to immediately go after Loghain in Denerim, when I here her say that in game I really start to wonder.... obviously she joined the party to help us with the blight, and here the first thing she says is to go kill Loghain so you can recruit allies without worrying about him. Alistair on the other hand really just suggest Redcliffe for help first because, unknown to the PC at the time, he is a bastard and he knows the people there, I also believe thats his home town unless I'm mistaken. On top of that its a human village/town and he is a human, who better to trust and refer for help then your hometown.

As far as saving Eamon goes well, Alistair is naturally a good alignment character, he does not just abandon people that need help, try to play the good knight in shineing armor and all your in game actions will likely net you Alistair approval rating. The fact that he is family too surely influences him a bit.

The allies for the landsmeet thing I figure is just how Bioware wanted events to play out, it didn't make much sense to me honestly, youd think there would be an option to assassinate Loghain as well but there isn't.

I think that kind of depends on how you became a Grey Warden, and whether you have found that you like Duncan or not.  I don't know that you get much of a chance to judge Duncan's character in any of the origins, although you may certainly speak to him in most of them.  The door is wide open on how you really feel about him in the Human Noble origin, as it would be really easy to dislike him for blackmailing your dying father with rescuing you if he agrees to let you become a Grey Warden.  Your father, on the other hand, will remind you that your duty, first and foremost is to Ferelden.  So it really depends on how you want to look at it.

You should be angry about it, and you should surely want him brought to justice, but if you're going to be the dutiful Grey Warden, then your only concern should be stopping the Blight.  You are reasonably sure after the first camp cutscene that you are indeed dealing with a Blight, however.  At least, from what information you have.  If you choose to be the dutiful Grey Warden, all other concerns should go on the back burner.  However, if you're going to keep Loghain on the fire, as it were, then Alistair should definitely come clean in that camp scene, and push you to hit Arl Eamon first.  This would give you the manpower you need, presumably, to go after Loghain, and a logical reason to kick him off the throne, even if some nobles aren't thrilled about a Bastard taking the throne.  Most won't have any qualms, as they will think as Eamon does, keeping the bloodline on the throne is important.

While it's really not possible both from a game perspective, and a character perspective to go directly after Loghain, this does not invalidate Morrigan's suggestion, and if you had the manpower to do something along the lines of what she suggests, it would be logical to do so, since, if he's out of the picture early, you can move around in relative safety.  Sound strategy, just not possible.  Alistair's counter arguement is valid, he just needed to present it in a different way.  The whiney attitude he has about it, while indicative of his mental state, does not add to the conversation.  The attitude, more than the rejection of her idea is what I see Morrigan more reacting to.  This is, of course, open to interpretation.  Alistair has not done a lot in the short time that we've known or known of Morrigan to bolster her confidence in him.

[menasure]

skotie wrote...
...

While I kinda get what your getting at, you should also note that while it may seem like Alistar is only out for himself, so to speak and your getting mixed up in affairs that really aren't your own, your PC honestly should want revenge for what happened at Ostagar just as much as Alistair.

Putting that fact aside however if you speak to Alistair and Morrigan in Lottering when you first enter you find out that Alistair thinks your best bet for help  is Redcliffe, Morrigan is the one who suggests to immediately go after Loghain in Denerim, when I here her say that in game I really start to wonder.... obviously she joined the party to help us with the blight, and here the first thing she says is to go kill Loghain so you can recruit allies without worrying about him. Alistair on the other hand really just suggest Redcliffe for help first because, unknown to the PC at the time, he is a bastard and he knows the people there, I also believe thats his home town unless I'm mistaken. On top of that its a human village/town and he is a human, who better to trust and refer for help then your hometown.

As far as saving Eamon goes well, Alistair is naturally a good alignment character, he does not just abandon people that need help, try to play the good knight in shineing armor and all your in game actions will likely net you Alistair approval rating. The fact that he is family too surely influences him a bit.

The allies for the landsmeet thing I figure is just how Bioware wanted events to play out, it didn't make much sense to me honestly, youd think there would be an option to assassinate Loghain as well but there isn't.

trust me it does get frustrating sometimes if you do not support Alistair at least partly, i have tried it lol.
yes it is easy to seek revenge on Loghain yourself -such is human nature- however it is nothing personal for Loghain to have you killed ... or at least not at the start ... it is personal for Howe however -a part of the whole noble origin- and he is the one suggesting to send the crows after you -even if you are not a human noble-.
the crows themselves are also neutral -as far as assinations go at least- because they are more like a group which does the dirty deeds for other nobles who can not perform such acts openly without consequences. you might also decide to kill what seems to be one of their local bosses out of revenge -and the game lets you do that- but in reality it would be a revenge against the messengers instead of the real culprits.
you say you want an option to assassinate Loghain? well i would also have liked to have an option to side with Loghain eventually instead of automatically ending up in the Alistair and or Anora camp with as main option to keep Loghain as warden or letting Alistair kill him, if not out of more rational reasons than just because of evil gameplay.

Modifié par menasure, 19 décembre 2009 - 04:35 .

[robertthebard]

DPSSOC wrote...

menasure wrote...

if there is ever a game made with more incompetent rulers this has to be it because they prove to be very human.
from the moment on that Duncan is killed Alistair starts slipping from his duty as grey warden by focussing on revenge instead of the real threat: the blight. the only -presumed- duty a grey warden has is stopping the blight yet when after Alistair learns that arl Eamon has been poisoned by Loghain it conveniently turns out that Alistair is a bastard son of Maric and that he has hidden it all the time. this is a suggestion that Alistair is up to something entirely different than focussing on the blight because you might get some support in redcliffe but there is no treaty with them. yet if you played the noble origin yourself then it is clearly stated that you really should not look for your lost brother but concentrate on the blight instead despite whatever happened to him.

Alistair suggest going to Arl Eamon for help because A) you will need the human armies to face the blight,  Arl Eamon is a man of influence within Fereldan politics, C) He is someone Alistair believes they can trust, we have no such certainties about other human nobles, and D) Eamon, as Cailan's uncle has the best claim to the throne (aside from him but he doesn't want us to know that.  I'll explain latr why D is important but A-C all involve gathering support against the Blight, because you don't have a treaty to compel the nobility to help you need to take the long road.

menasure wrote...

Alistair proves to be the exception because despite of a village and a castle completely overrun by undead it is supposedly that important to save Eamon and settle the matter of rulership afterward despite the fact that there might not be an army left to speak off. so all of a sudden the story is not that much about stopping the blight anymore, it's about revenge and rulership under the rationalization off 'uniting Ferelden against the blight'.

the problem with this scenario is: you are asked to gather your allies before the landsmeet. why is that? the treaties only apply for supporting the grey wardens against the darkspawn, not to force someone into political power. at best having these allied armies gives you a bargaining position because since you are a grey warden you can unite these with whatever army a ruler has ... except nobody bargains.

The matter of rulership is important for a very simple reason, only the king can issue orders to the entire army.  There is no Fereldan Armed Forces there are simply soldiers who owe allegiance to a particular Bann, Arl, Teryn, etc.  While the King would have his own soldiers they're not in large enough numbers to wage effective war against another nation or the Blight.  So when there is need to go to war the King calls on the nobles to send their soldiers (see Human Noble Origin).  Without a King there is no one who can send out that order so you need to establish who's in charge or it doesn't matter if Fereldan has an army of 3 million mages, golems, werewolves, and the Maker himself because you can't get them to rally under a single banner.

As for gathering your allies before the Landsmeet it's rather simple, you may need to fight Loghain's armies.  Arl Eamon doesn't have the men to take on Loghain and all his supporters by himself, using the treaties to gather your allies gives you the military power you need to A) fight Loghain if you must and  Make the idea of fighting less appealing.

menasure wrote...

if "you" -err who is supposed to win exactly?- win the landsmeet then Alistair proves that he was more out on revenge than anything else with his whole Loghain fit and in some scenarios he abandons his grey warden duty all together.Ser Jory was never so lucky to get away with desertion because it is a war situation you are in whether you like it or not after all.

Worst of all: Alistair might very well prove himself worse than Loghain, not necessarily because he makes the wrong decision but because an unhardened Alistair rarely makes a decision while it is certainly very needed to have someone making the decisions in such troubled times... oh well at least he won't have Howe as 'advisor' i guess because that one gets his death without trial every time and that is exactly what Alistair had in mind for Loghain too. it is one of the few decisions he really wants to make in game.

It's not revenge he's after, it's justice, revenge is just a fortunate by product.

Justice has been decreed by the Landsmeet.  Alistair wanting Loghain dead is revenge.  Another flaw here is that your treaties insure support against the Blight, nothing else.  Otherwise, you could have had your entire army for the fight at Redcliffe Village.  Believe, I tried to get troops for that, it doesn't work.

[skotie]

@Menasure



Yeah I posted in another thread about the lack of options for "evil" characters or I guess just self serving jerk types that you really don't have the option to play. In a lot of ways DA:O reminds me of Oblivion: Elder Scrolls 4, in the regards that your character can choose to do what they want, even have a great deal of their story effected by it like the Dark Brotherhood quests. However when it comes down to it there's no changing your main story, your gonna have to save the world one way or another, and everyone's going to love you and call you a hero for it, such a shame really, we always gotta be the hero in RPGs.

[DPSSOC]

robertthebard wrote...

Justice has been decreed by the Landsmeet.  Alistair wanting Loghain dead is revenge.  Another flaw here is that your treaties insure support against the Blight, nothing else.  Otherwise, you could have had your entire army for the fight at Redcliffe Village.  Believe, I tried to get troops for that, it doesn't work.

Yes but Loghain doesn't know that.

Now if memory serves (though it seldom does) Alistair or Duncan states that the treaties compel assistance "durring a Blight" now if that's how the treaty is worded you could have them paint Castle Redcliffe hot pink and it would still fall under the treaty.  It would be a gross misrepresentation of the spirit of the treaty but not the letter and really that's what matters.

As far as justice did the Landsmeet come to any conclusion on sentence?  Did they come to any conclusion on his guilt?  I really need to start paying more attention at that point.  Either way Loghain is guilty of treason for what he did at Ostagar, and after, and even in most nations today treason warrants a death sentence.

[menasure]

robertthebard wrote...
...
Justice has been decreed by the Landsmeet.  Alistair wanting Loghain dead is revenge.  Another flaw here is that your treaties insure support against the Blight, nothing else.  Otherwise, you could have had your entire army for the fight at Redcliffe Village.  Believe, I tried to get troops for that, it doesn't work.

hehe the only troops which can be considered your own to command and for whatever you want are the werewolves (explicitly put like that) and gollems (because of controll rods) however these might be remnants of options which got dismissed during the development because it does introduce ideas which the current game not support.
other than that it is not very clear which numbers of troops you have at your disposal, nor the numbers which others have. i do see it as a mistake that you never really get the command over the royal army or simply a npc making you attentive about that need for royal armies because that could have showed why the need to have king supporting you existed. the only thing refering to this need is dialogue which suggests that the darkspawn outnumbers your army 3 to 1 during the endgame but other than that it is more like guessing and you have even proven in game that you can take over a castle with just 3 companions (err lol... take that rambo )

Modifié par menasure, 19 décembre 2009 - 04:55 .

[ejoslin]

menasure wrote...


other than that it is not very clear which numbers of troops you have at your disposal, nor the numbers which others have. i do see it as a mistake that you never really get the command over the royal army or simply a npc making you attentive about that need for royal armies because that could have showed why the need to have king supporting you existed. the only thing refering to this need is dialogue which suggests that the darkspawn outnumbers your army 3 to 1 during the endgame.

While it is never made clear how many troops you have, you are put in Loghain's old position of general of the army by either Alistair or Anora as soon as you decide who's on the throne.  Or am I misunderstanding you?

[menasure]

ejoslin wrote...

menasure wrote...


other than that it is not very clear which numbers of troops you have at your disposal, nor the numbers which others have. i do see it as a mistake that you never really get the command over the royal army or simply a npc making you attentive about that need for royal armies because that could have showed why the need to have king supporting you existed. the only thing refering to this need is dialogue which suggests that the darkspawn outnumbers your army 3 to 1 during the endgame.

While it is never made clear how many troops you have, you are put in Loghain's old position of general of the army by either Alistair or Anora as soon as you decide who's on the throne.  Or am I misunderstanding you?

sort of but apparently you are only commanding the armies which you gathered yourself directly (the whole wheel function in game) edit... oh and while i think about it you do appoint one of your companions to command the guards who hold the gate.
just stating that the whole army thing comes more across as a side-effect rather than a real goal to defeat the darkspawn.

Modifié par menasure, 19 décembre 2009 - 05:02 .

[DPSSOC]

menasure wrote...

the only thing refering to this need is dialogue which suggests that the darkspawn outnumbers your army 3 to 1 during the endgame

 
Good odds for any Greek

menasure wrote...

but other than that it is more like guessing and you have even proven in game that you can take over a castle with just 3 companions (err lol... take that rambo )

What are you talking about Rambo would have done it by himself.  Wounded.  With one leg.  Blindfolded.  In the rain.

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
So if this is all that's needed, I guess the GW's can pack their bags and leave, they got the army together, after all.

Wiht hte knowledge you had at the time, yes. To fihgt darkspawn you need an army. To kill and archdemon you need a Grey Warden - no one knew that at the time. Alistair did what was needed to defend Ferelden, to the best of hisknowledge.

Again, no.  He tells you because he knows you're going to find out anyway, otherwise why bother to hide it in the first place?  You're running in circles here.  Since, according to this post, we don't need it until Eamon recovers, what happens if Eamon doesn't recover?  Better question, since you put this out, why tell us before we actually manage to save Eamon?  Isn't more to save face than anything else at this point?  Strange that Eamon would think we do need it then, isn't it?  I mean, if it's so irrelevant to the Landsmeet, why even add it to the plot of the game?

I love it when you post things as fact wihout any proof - how do oyu KNOW why he did it? I'm not asking you why you think something, I'm asking you if yoiu know for sure. And you don't. And ther'es plenty of other reasons to choose from.
You don't need Alistair, which is proven by the fact that you can side with Anora.
Why doens't Alistair think it's important? Because he doesn't. He's not a ploitician and he frankly thinks he's got no shot at the throne, which is why he reccomends Eamon for the throne.
So...yea...you fail...again.

Apparently Alistair's agenda is unkown too, since it seems at the Landsmeet his only agenda is to kill Loghain.  He does lie to you, directly.  There is a dialog early where you can ask him who his father is.  He lies.  The simple fact that you choose to ignore this shows me that you're not trying to prove you right, but me wrong.  However, since the dialog does exist in game, and the oppurtunities for him to come clean exist well before Redcliffe, he is lying to you every single day, by allowing you to live in the dark about who he truly is.  He only finally comes clean when he knows he's probably going to be sold out anyway.

That is a very early dialogue, yes? He doens't know you enough to trust you and YOU DON'T NEED TO KNOW. What part of him promising to keep his herratage a secreat are you missing?

To call him a big liar for that is redicolous. I don't know what criteria you're using to judge people, but I don't think anyone in hte world would get a passing grade - especialyl not you yourself.

Anbd he wants to kill Loghain? So what? I really dont' see where you think you're going with this.

This shows that he knows he's important to both achieveing his hidden agenda, killing Loghain, and saving Ferelden, but allowed fear to motivate him into not revealing this to you before he absolutely felt like he had to.  This whole topic is full of "He's not a wimp for being afraid you might view him differently, and he's afraid he might have to become King and make decisions that affect the lives of other people.  Really, I'm not making this up.  Yet the fact that he is afraid of these things means that he's not a coward.  Doesn't that seem a bit contradictory to you?  I'm under the impression that letting fear run your life means that you are a coward.

You fail to grasp the meaning of the word courage.
What you call fear I call wisdom and precaution. What you call omission and lies I call keeping a promise.

You mean, about Alistair being the rightful King?

No, about you missing the point again and again.
You still havne't answered hte question, just tried to dodge it. Answer it. The bomb question. ANSWER IT.

Your hypocrisy about this subject cracks me up. Even more so because
you are evidently blind to it. On one hand, the Grey Wardens are
supposed to stop the Blight at all costs, and on the other, when it
better suits your argument, they aren't pledged to do anything at all.
At all cost may include, btw, accepting that 3 Grey Wardens may not be
enough, and at the Landsmeet, that's all there are in Ferelden. Your
supposition that the Orlesian Wardens can now come to stop the Blight
is true, but they can't possibly get to Denerim in time. How long do
you suppose that would take? 4-5 months? You are aware that they
actually have to travel that, right? They don't just use the area
transition, and magically teleport there in a matter of seconds.

Your blindness cracks me up. And your hypocrisy broke my ****-o-meter.

The Grey Wardens are supposed to stop the blight. PERIOD. The Grey Wardens do that because they want to or because they have no choice. Alistair did it cause he wanted to. And he did everything in his power to do that.
He left, but it was well within his rights to do so. He joined volountarily, he can leave so too - especially if the leader of the outfit is a massive ****** (like your PC).
And agian ,you're tring to use meta-knowledge here.

Alistair didn't know how far the Blight is. There was no indication that they were gunning for Denerim. Did you know the wardens from Orlais cna't make it in time at hte Landsmeet? No? Thought so. And the assembled army was there. It was enough to defeat the Blight in the end, was it not?
Needing more Grey Wardens? Strawman. He's not against more Grey Wardens, he's against Loghain as one. And since there's ample able bodies, there really is no reason why Loghain is cruical. NONE.

Face the facts - Alistair helped assemble the armies and unite the country. That alone makes him a Big Damn Hero.

[Medhia Nox]

I haven't read all the other posts.. but in the OP Alistair defends himself by asking whether Shale has been responsible for other's lives.. or the lives of a whole nation.



---



He's not responsible for any of that.. he put me in charge.



AND, he abandons me when I make a decision he didn't approve of.. and became a drunk.



So.. Shale wins in my book.



I don't care about all this alpha-male nonesense.. I like Sten and Zevran fine enough. Alistair is a deserter in my play throughs.

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...

Some wisdom at last. No, the oppinions dont' have to be right or wrong. Depends on what's the oppinion and what's it based on.
What I am "crusading" against is this redicolous character judgment that's so devoid of any actual thought that it sickens me.
Take for example, Alistair not telling you who his father is. Some literally jumped on it, claiming as a fact that's he's a douche because of that, completley ignoring his reasons. Because they clearly don't matter when judging someones character, right? Becauseh e clearly MUST tell you, right?

There is no qualifier. If a person believes their opinion to be right, they are. If you disagree, that's your opinion. You are no more right than they are. So much for your wisdom. This statement invalidates everything you've said. Not just here, either, since you possess no wisdom is apparent by this statement, how can anyone take anything you say about being wise or not seriously?

Really? So my oppinion that Elvis is alive, that moon is made of cheese an that space-lizzards control your brain are just as right as your oppinion that that is not the case?

OH GOODY!!!

A round of applause for you and your brilliant logic. Here, a Darwin award for you. TI's normally reserved for people who died, but its clear allready all your brain cells ceasedto function eons ago.

As Morrigan points out, "The truth does not simply go away". Hiding who he really is is the supreme act of cowardice. Why? Because of the fact that he does so out of fear. He's afraid you might view him differently, that he might be put forward to take the crown, etc etc. When you are unwilling to face your fears, and do what needs to be done, you are a coward, that's what being a coward means.

What part of "promised to keep it a secret" are you forgeting?
And no, he doens't have ot tell you, for whatever reason. Maybe he just doens't like you. Maybe he just likes to keep you guessing. the point is you don't have some divine right to know.

And his fears are sound, since what he fears is exactly that what normally happens. He wants for peopel to view him for who he is, not his title. Is that so hard ot understand for you?
And all your talk of cowardice is useless, since he DOES tell you. Only not immediately. Ergo, he faces his "fear", and that, by your own definition, does not make him a coward.

EPIC FAIL for you!

Merriam Webster...
Main Entry: cow·ard
Pronunciation: \\\\ˈkau̇(-ə)rd\\\\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French cuard, from cue, coe tail, from Latin cauda
Date: 13th century
: one who shows disgraceful fear or timidity
— coward adjective

Ok, now definne "disgracefull fear" and see if everyone on this forums will agree with you.

Here are the facts in this discussion:

Fact: If you don't harden Alistair, and don't kill Loghain, he will leave Ferelden.
Fact: Loghain leaving people to die in Ostagar is a crime that if you don't kill him for, you are an idiot.
Fact: If Alistair leaves people to die in Ferelden because you don't kill Loghain, it's perfectly acceptable, and is to be expected.
Fact: Grey Wardens are supposed to stop a Blight.
Fact: If you don't kill Loghain, the last fact is up for debate.
Fact: If you don't do the Dark Ritual, Morrigan leaves, this means she's evil.
Fact: If you don't kill Loghain, and Alistair leaves, you are evil.

Trying to be funny again? You just can't do it, give it up.
Also, mixing actual facts with half-truths in an attempt to pass it all off? Tsk, tsk..sloppy.

Let's see..kiling Logain is a proudent thing to do.
Alistair doens't "leave people to die", he leaves people with an army and resources to fend for themselves. You and him spent 2 years gathering an army, the whole of Ferelden should be gratefull for that.
Morrigan leaving is not proof of anything.


*YAWN*

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
Wow, that is reaching.  All of a sudden, our ingame decisions affect what we would do in the real world?  RPG's are, to quote Buffy Sommers, "Come as you aren't".  If you really have this much trouble separating reality from fantasy, you should really seek professional help.

Nope. That's not reaching. We're talking about peoples behaviour and what are normal, rational actions, etc..

The context fits. It shows how profesional react when the boss decides to cross the line and try to put someone they ocnsider a monster in the team.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wiht hte knowledge you had at the time, yes. To fihgt darkspawn you need an army. To kill and archdemon you need a Grey Warden - no one knew that at the time. Alistair did what was needed to defend Ferelden, to the best of hisknowledge.

No.  Alistair followed you while you did what was necessary.

I love it when you post things as fact wihout any proof - how do oyu KNOW why he did it? I'm not asking you why you think something, I'm asking you if yoiu know for sure. And you don't. And ther'es plenty of other reasons to choose from.

I know why he did it because he tells me.  There can be no better proof of something than getting it straight from the horse's mouth.  Something that you are plainly willing to overlook to win an arguement on the internet.  Afterall, just because Alistair says he's afraid you'll look at him differently doesn't mean that's what he meant, right?  So am I still making all this up?  Regardless of how you go about the camp cutscene dialog after you learn who he is, even if you gain approval during the conversation, he will tell you that he was afraid that you'd look at him differently and that he'd be expected to be King.  If you don't want to pay attention to what's said in game, the only real source of information we have regarding this, why are you still posting?  Don't want to be wrong?  You are, deal with it.

You don't need Alistair, which is proven by the fact that you can side with Anora.
Why doens't Alistair think it's important? Because he doesn't. He's not a ploitician and he frankly thinks he's got no shot at the throne, which is why he reccomends Eamon for the throne.
So...yea...you fail...again.

Where is my fail?  in your eyes, because you chose to ignore ingame dialog that counters everything you're trying to say?  Eamon thinks it's important to put Alistair forward to keep the blood line intact.  He will tell you this in Denerim before the Landsmeet.  I'm sorry that you were so busy fawning over Alistair that you missed it, but the dialog is there.

That is a very early dialogue, yes? He doens't know you enough to trust you and YOU DON'T NEED TO KNOW. What part of him promising to keep his herratage a secreat are you missing?

Oh, I don't know, the part where there can't possibly be a rebellion against Maric or Cailin, because both are dead.  I notice you still dodge answering why Alistair would ever tell us if he didn't think it was important, or why Eamon thought it was.  Nice dodge, you must have high evasion.  We know what stat you took from to increase it too.

To call him a big liar for that is redicolous. I don't know what criteria you're using to judge people, but I don't think anyone in hte world would get a passing grade - especialyl not you yourself.

Yes, because calling him out for what he did is a crime against Alistair fans everywhere.  Don't believe me, maybe you should look up all the conversations with Alistair and Eamon for text that you have ignored in game to continue trying to prove me wrong.  I'm frankly enjoying this game.  Your credibility drops lower and lower with every post, and sooner or later the Alistair fan club is going to be sending you private messages asking you to please shut up.

Anbd he wants to kill Loghain? So what? I really dont' see where you think you're going with this.

You fail to grasp the meaning of the word courage.
What you call fear I call wisdom and precaution. What you call omission and lies I call keeping a promise.

As Morrigan points out, the time for deception ended with Cailin dead on the field in Ostagar.  Shock of all shocks, Alistair agreed with her, and said he just hoped it would all go away.  So again, this is straight from Alistair.  I should believe you over him?  I guess I really should, your post history is full of you know more than even the game designers about what was intended for the game.

No, about you missing the point again and again.
You still havne't answered hte question, just tried to dodge it. Answer it. The bomb question. ANSWER IT.

The only bomb question you asked, I did answer, and you said I missed the point.  However, you are starting to get really desperate, and after this post, it's likely we'll have a fanboi explosion.  Especially since the object of your affection has damned himself in regard to this conversation.  Morrigan's last line in the aforementioned conversation, "The truth does not simply go away.", to which your hero replies, "I never said it was a good plan".  This is straight from the game.  You can choose to deny this conversation if you wish, but that won't change the facts.

Your blindness cracks me up. And your hypocrisy broke my ****-o-meter.

The Grey Wardens are supposed to stop the blight. PERIOD. The Grey Wardens do that because they want to or because they have no choice. Alistair did it cause he wanted to. And he did everything in his power to do that.
He left, but it was well within his rights to do so. He joined volountarily, he can leave so too - especially if the leader of the outfit is a massive ****** (like your PC).
And agian ,you're tring to use meta-knowledge here.

Actually, the only way one can justify Alistair running off is metagaming.  The situation is bleak, and the Blight is in full force, and one of the people that's supposed to stop it, who has harped on how much he likes being a Grey Warden for almost the entire game, decides to abandon his country, and his supposed friend.  Again, with friends like that, who needs enemies.

Alistair didn't know how far the Blight is. There was no indication that they were gunning for Denerim. Did you know the wardens from Orlais cna't make it in time at hte Landsmeet? No? Thought so. And the assembled army was there. It was enough to defeat the Blight in the end, was it not?
Needing more Grey Wardens? Strawman. He's not against more Grey Wardens, he's against Loghain as one. And since there's ample able bodies, there really is no reason why Loghain is cruical. NONE.

Face the facts - Alistair helped assemble the armies and unite the country. That alone makes him a Big Damn Hero.

The darkspawn were gunning for Ferelden.  It doesn't matter what part of it, because they're not going to take Redcliffe and stop.  They are going to take all of Ferelden.  So how does having no idea that they are heading to Denerim factor in to "It's ok Alistair, you can go have your hissy fit whereever it is that you end up when you split".  Whereever it was, he made damn well sure it wasn't Ferelden.  Yeah, he was a great hero.  The rest of us, that risked life and limb to stop the Blight are just footnotes in the history that is Alistair...

Regarding Grey Wardens from Orlais, as I pointed out in my previous post, you have to send a runner to Orlais and get them.  If they aren't sitting at the border waiting for an OK to come across, since they were turned away the first time they tried, then they will have to be gathered up and then organized and then march.   Since any runner/runners dispatched would have had instructions for them to go to Redcliffe, where everybody else was going after the Landsmeet, then they would organize and head there.  Shock of shocks, the Archdemon is actually attacking Denerim, now we all have to forced march back to Denerim to try and salvage what we can.  This will delay the Orlesian forces even more, as they will likely have to back track to the North Road, and come in from the West.  Too late to do any good.

In other words, no, you can't rely on forces from Orlais to be there.  Case in point, were they there at Denerim?  If you just did the basic treaties, then you had dwarves marching from Orzammar, Elves from whereever they were, probably Brecilian Forest, but that's just a guess, and mages from the circle, along with Ferelden's army.  I didn't see any Orlesians, and there were no other Grey Wardens at Denerim.  Yeah, you've really broken me down this time.  I just don't know what to do with all these facts that you want to ignore to be right...

[LynxAQ]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Wow, that is reaching.  All of a sudden, our ingame decisions affect what we would do in the real world?  RPG's are, to quote Buffy Sommers, "Come as you aren't".  If you really have this much trouble separating reality from fantasy, you should really seek professional help.

Nope. That's not reaching. We're talking about peoples behaviour and what are normal, rational actions, etc..

The context fits. It shows how profesional react when the boss decides to cross the line and try to put someone they ocnsider a monster in the team.

You can never say what normal or rational actions are. It is debatable but there will be no right or wrong. Those concepts are extremely relative. What one culture might consider normal, another could consider blasphemy.

But I must say alot of your points and arguments have been answered several times in this post, yet you continue to conveniently ignore them in your rants and ask them again. Debating and discussing things with people like you is really pointless, because you are one of the ignorant people who think everything they say and believe is right and anything anyone else says is wrong. Much like a 15 year old who knows everything. I think I am pretty close to your age here.

What we discussing orat least how this thread has turned is Alistairs character and how he is a coward / wimp (whatever you will call it) for not standing up to his responsiblities and accepting them. Instead he constantly whines about not being king, in his own words "I have never wanted to be king, and I certainly don't want it now." and his unwillingness to lead, cause he even admits in banter he is more of a follower.

He continues to lie to you about his heritage even when you ask him who his dad is. He then has a hissy fi when you fnd out and you acted betrayed cause he never told you, and tries to make himself look like the victim. He then lies to you about the entire mission, which comes clear in the Landsmeet, where his only goal was vengeance. The fact that he abandons you says much about him.

But at least you know Bioware did a good job at character developement that we can have this debate over days on Alistairs character. Good times.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Wow, that is reaching.  All of a sudden, our ingame decisions affect what we would do in the real world?  RPG's are, to quote Buffy Sommers, "Come as you aren't".  If you really have this much trouble separating reality from fantasy, you should really seek professional help.

Nope. That's not reaching. We're talking about peoples behaviour and what are normal, rational actions, etc..

The context fits. It shows how profesional react when the boss decides to cross the line and try to put someone they ocnsider a monster in the team.

So, I can take it from this post that you really did run in the special olympics, and that my line from before was really in poor taste?  If you are not battling monsters everyday, and killing people that are ambushing you when you try to go to the grocery store, video game actions do not equal real life actions.  I said it in the post you quoted, fantasy games are "come as you aren't".  However, this post really does shed some light on a lot of things, and I really think I should be done responding to you.  Battles of wits are all fun and all, but not when I'm fighting with an unarmed man.

[frostajulie]

Just chiming in



Alistair is the most awesome character throughout the game, moral, adorable and just too good to be true.



No seriously, too good to be true.



He says early in the game he won't abandon Fereldon. Then he does. On the eve of battle. He abandons Fereldon, the Grey wardens and his friend/lover to death at the hands of the Darkspawn horde.



He is a coward. Plain and simple a total douche coward. If he had stayed to fight the darkspawn it would have been fine for him to hate me hate loghain hate what we had done to the rep of the great grey wardens. But he bailed like a cowardly tool. His actions are indefensible. Its not that he can turn his feelings on and off like a light switch that makes him suck, though it certainly contributes to the fact, but the fact that he just leaves the battle field. Yeah coward all the way.



Someone in the thread said he joined willingly and had a right to leave as well. Bullplop! We all know per ser Jory that there is one way and one way only to leave the Grey wardens and that is as a corpse. I kind of wish the epilogie had been AListair was found drunk in a tavern by a Grey warden hit squad and promptly executed for desertion.



Better yet I want the option to pull a Duncan and run him through with my sword when he threatens to leave, complete with the cut scene where I tearfully apologize to his ear as I illicitely smell his neck before pulling my sword from his body and shoving his warm corpse to the ground.

[robertthebard]

frostajulie wrote...

Just chiming in

Alistair is the most awesome character throughout the game, moral, adorable and just too good to be true.

No seriously, too good to be true.

He says early in the game he won't abandon Fereldon. Then he does. On the eve of battle. He abandons Fereldon, the Grey wardens and his friend/lover to death at the hands of the Darkspawn horde.

He is a coward. Plain and simple a total douche coward. If he had stayed to fight the darkspawn it would have been fine for him to hate me hate loghain hate what we had done to the rep of the great grey wardens. But he bailed like a cowardly tool. His actions are indefensible. Its not that he can turn his feelings on and off like a light switch that makes him suck, though it certainly contributes to the fact, but the fact that he just leaves the battle field. Yeah coward all the way.

Someone in the thread said he joined willingly and had a right to leave as well. Bullplop! We all know per ser Jory that there is one way and one way only to leave the Grey wardens and that is as a corpse. I kind of wish the epilogie had been AListair was found drunk in a tavern by a Grey warden hit squad and promptly executed for desertion.

Better yet I want the option to pull a Duncan and run him through with my sword when he threatens to leave, complete with the cut scene where I tearfully apologize to his ear as I illicitely smell his neck before pulling my sword from his body and shoving his warm corpse to the ground.

Geez, and everybody thinks I hate Alistair...

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]robertthebard wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wiht hte knowledge you had at the time, yes. To fihgt darkspawn you need an army. To kill and archdemon you need a Grey Warden - no one knew that at the time. Alistair did what was needed to defend Ferelden, to the best of hisknowledge.[/quote]

No.  Alistair followed you while you did what was necessary.



[quote]
I know why he did it because he tells me.  There can be no better proof of something than getting it straight from the horse's mouth.  Something that you are plainly willing to overlook to win an arguement on the internet.  Afterall, just because Alistair says he's afraid you'll look at him differently doesn't mean that's what he meant, right?  So am I still making all this up?  Regardless of how you go about the camp cutscene dialog after you learn who he is, even if you gain approval during the conversation, he will tell you that he was afraid that you'd look at him differently and that he'd be expected to be King.  If you don't want to pay attention to what's said in game, the only real source of information we have regarding this, why are you still posting?  Don't want to be wrong?  You are, deal with it.[/quote]


What a load of horses****!
Alistair never tells you "I hope earl Eamon dies so I can keep my secret". You're so full of it it isn't even funny.
And now you try to steer conversation fro mtht by "accidently" misunderstanding and switching to the "afraid he's be treated differently" bit. Cute.




[quote]
Where is my fail?  in your eyes, because you chose to ignore ingame dialog that counters everything you're trying to say?  Eamon thinks it's important to put Alistair forward to keep the blood line intact.  He will tell you this in Denerim before the Landsmeet.  I'm sorry that you were so busy fawning over Alistair that you missed it, but the dialog is there.[/quote]

Apples and oranges much? Do you evne bother to read what I said?

You're using Eamons reasoning and knowledge on amtters to show everyone what Alistar should have done, like that knowledge is hin. It is not.


[quote]
Oh, I don't know, the part where there can't possibly be a rebellion against Maric or Cailin, because both are dead.  I notice you still dodge answering why Alistair would ever tell us if he didn't think it was important, or why Eamon thought it was.  Nice dodge, you must have high evasion.  We know what stat you took from to increase it too.[/quote]

Because he thought it might be the right time to tell you? Because he thought it might become an issue.
The fact remains that you don't know for a fact why he didn't tell you till then. He tells you why, but you choose to disbelive it and have some conspiracy theories about him wanting Eamon dead instead.



[quote]
Yes, because calling him out for what he did is a crime against Alistair fans everywhere.  Don't believe me, maybe you should look up all the conversations with Alistair and Eamon for text that you have ignored in game to continue trying to prove me wrong.  I'm frankly enjoying this game.  Your credibility drops lower and lower with every post, and sooner or later the Alistair fan club is going to be sending you private messages asking you to please shut up.[/quote]

Only in your little dillusional head.
It's not my credibiltiy you should be concerned with here. It's doing just fine.


[quote]
As Morrigan points out, the time for deception ended with Cailin dead on the field in Ostagar.  Shock of all shocks, Alistair agreed with her, and said he just hoped it would all go away.  So again, this is straight from Alistair.  I should believe you over him?  I guess I really should, your post history is full of you know more than even the game designers about what was intended for the game.[/quote]

So he didn't tell you immediately. Again, so what?
What part of "not telling ones deepest secrests that oyu promised to keep a secret to people you've only known for a short while" exactly makes him a terrible human being?



[quote]
The only bomb question you asked, I did answer, and you said I missed the point.  However, you are starting to get really desperate, and after this post, it's likely we'll have a fanboi explosion. [/quote]

Again ignoring it. Will you quite doging allready and aswer it? Or is looking a few posts back too strenious for you?

I say again - if you had NO knowledge of explosives and were brought up to have as little do do with explosives as possible, and then one day you're asked to disarm a bomb - are you a coward if you want someoen more experienced to do it insted of you?

If you answer NO and still claim Alistair is a coward, then you're a grade A hypoicrite.



[quote]
Actually, the only way one can justify Alistair running off is metagaming.  The situation is bleak, and the Blight is in full force, and one of the people that's supposed to stop it, who has harped on how much he likes being a Grey Warden for almost the entire game, decides to abandon his country, and his supposed friend.  Again, with friends like that, who needs enemies.[/quote]

The situation isn't bleak. When he leaves, the situation is the best is was since Ostagar - in no small part due to his efforts. And IIRC, he leaves Denerim, not the country itself.
that last line - I'm quite sure Alistair would say the smae about your PC.



[quote]
The darkspawn were gunning for Ferelden.  It doesn't matter what part of it, because they're not going to take Redcliffe and stop.  They are going to take all of Ferelden.  So how does having no idea that they are heading to Denerim factor in to "It's ok Alistair, you can go have your hissy fit whereever it is that you end up when you split".  Whereever it was, he made damn well sure it wasn't Ferelden.  Yeah, he was a great hero.  The rest of us, that risked life and limb to stop the Blight are just footnotes in the history that is Alistair...[/qutoe]

Reductio Ad Absurdum won't help you here.
He killed hunders of darkspawn on the way and helped secure armies to fight the Blight and stabilise the country. That is not enough for you?
Sure, he could have also fought by your side, and it would have indeed be a better choice, but he didn't. So what?
The point is that he did more to defend Ferelden than practicly any other man in Ferelden, save the PC.

Must he also praticipate in the last battle in the front lines too? Note that we also have no idea where he went right after the landsmeet and where he was during the attack on Denerim. If the darkspawn where everywhere, chances are he did fight them on that same day.

The PC tramples and dances on everything he holds dear, so he sez "****s you!" and goes away, but leaves oyu with everything you need to stop the blight. So no, that doens't make him a bad person or a coward. Not at all.


[quote]
*SNIPPED POST WITH USELESS CALCULATIONS ABOUT  WARDENS FROM ORLAIS*[/quote]

This is all baseless conjecture. You don't know any of that as a fact and you refuse to admitt that. Face it allready. How can you know if reinforcements can't come in time if oyu dont' know when and where the battle will take place in the first place???

[Lotion Soronarr]

LynxAQ wrote...
You can never say what normal or rational actions are. It is debatable but there will be no right or wrong. Those concepts are extremely relative. What one culture might consider normal, another could consider blasphemy.

subjective morality discussion again? Not biting, sorry.

[qutoe]
But I must say alot of your points and arguments have been answered several times in this post, yet you continue to conveniently ignore them in your rants and ask them again. [/qutoe]

But I must say all of your points have been debunked several times in this thread, yet you continue to ignore them.

Debating and discussing things with people like you is really pointless, because you are one of the ignorant people who think everything they say and believe is right and anything anyone else says is wrong. Much like a 15 year old who knows everything. I think I am pretty close to your age here.

Cold. Very cold. Try again. It is a double digit tough...

He continues to lie to you about his heritage even when you ask him who his dad is. He then has a hissy fi when you fnd out and you acted betrayed cause he never told you, and tries to make himself look like the victim.

You can ask him that once and he lies to you. Yes, because you don't need to know. You dont' have some divine right to that information, regardless of what you might think.

He then lies to you about the entire mission, which comes clear in the Landsmeet, where his only goal was vengeance. The fact that he abandons you says much about him.

Nope, he never did lie about his mission. If you think the Landsmeet somehow proves otherwise, then you're sorely mistaken.

He did fight darkspawn, he did gather an army, he does accept being a king if it's really needed. He does leave you if you kick him in the nads. He doesn't slay the archdemon if you spare Loghain? Big deal.

[kahramoh]

There seems to be a lot of ifs followed by an absolute around here. Yes, some plays will turn Alastair into a coward; others, into more of a hero. Its not so absolute.

Of course, he does come off as whiny, but that does not make one a coward.