199 réponses à ce sujet

[Suron]

seriously Alistair's hissy fit is understandable and acceptable UP UNTIL HE TOTALLY LEAVES AND DOES NOT FIGHT THE ARCHDEMON....how stupid can you be? Regardless of his feelings..even if he hates you..and hates Loghain...and refuses to accompany your "party" in the last battle...HE SHOULD BE THERE.



his turning his back and totally ignoring the Blight and Archdemon is a poor element..regardless of whether it's Alistair just acting like a child...or BioWares handling of that particular angle (which is what I sadly believe...even with how pissed he get's Alistair KNOWS how serious this is and at LEAST would still fight for Fereldan..as it is he's turned his back on his country..King or not..and I don't see Alistair's personality as such...so in essence I think BioWare failed on this one)

[Saurel]

If we were to take that one action, we would assume all his motivation had to do with Duncan and nothing about the greater good.

[Rainen89]

Do you really think he would've cared about being a grey warden if Duncan hadn't been a grey warden yet still gotten him away from the chantry.

Modifié par Rainen89, 18 décembre 2009 - 02:57 .

[Herr Uhl]

Rainen89 wrote...

Do you really think he would've cared about being a grey warden if Duncan hadn't been the one to get him away from the Chantry.

Yes, as long as it got him away from there, he would be happy.

[Saurel]

Rainen89 wrote...

Do you really think he would've cared about being a grey warden if Duncan hadn't been a grey warden yet still gotten him away from the chantry.

Nope but the fact that he makes speeches about what being a grey warden is about....makes him see dick-ish overall.

Definitely not self-aware.

In hind-sight it almost feels like he memorized "Do whatever it takes" lines to impress Duncan.

Modifié par Saurel, 18 décembre 2009 - 02:59 .

[eschilde]

Suron wrote...
.so in essence I think BioWare failed on this one)

But then they would have had to figure out how to fit two one-hander-and-shield guys around the camp fire.

[Volourn]

"even tho he was mislead mainly by Howe"



No, he wasn't. Loghain had his eye open . He just didn't care. His bigotry, ego, and scumminess is what led to his betrayal. Now Howe. Loghain used Howe; not the other way around. He also twisted, used, and abused a woman who blindly trusted him as well. Dispicable.





As for Alistari.. I'm not a big fan of his, but his leaving the party over is logical from his point. Wher eit fails is the follow through. He should have gone on, and prepare himself. And, as someone suggested, find a way to to battle the darkspawn/archdemon.



Remember, he feels by siding with the man who betrayed Duncan and the GW is betraying him. Darn right this is personal. Besdies, Loghain simply cns't be trusted once. He betrayed the son of his best friend, he betrayed the country's army - men who were willing to die for Feralden just as he claims to be willing to do - so, you don't think he'd betray you in a heartbeat? Come on now. And, betrayal runs in his blood.



Loghain is scum, and a fool who trusts him cannot be trusted.

[Rainen89]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Rainen89 wrote...

Do you really think he would've cared about being a grey warden if Duncan hadn't been the one to get him away from the Chantry.

Yes, as long as it got him away from there, he would be happy.

Right but the point was he doesn't care so much about the wardens, he joined the wardens because they were a means to an end, being with Duncan who saved him from the chantry and his misery there. His sole purpose for being there could just as easily be to put Loghain to justice, stopping the Archdemon is just what Duncan wanted him to do, but he was more interested in stopping Loghain.

[Mnemnosyne]

If Alistair had shown up as an NPC during the final battle, it would have been understandable. He won't work directly with Loghain or the PC that spares Loghain, but he does show up to help stop the Blight. This would be an understandable and reasonable reaction given everything we know about him.

As it is, however, it's inexcusable and it's him putting petty vengeance over everything, abandoning everything he professed to care about throughout the entire game up to that point.

[Saurel]

Volourn wrote...

"even tho he was mislead mainly by Howe"

No, he wasn't. Loghain had his eye open . He just didn't care. His bigotry, ego, and scumminess is what led to his betrayal. Now Howe. Loghain used Howe; not the other way around. He also twisted, used, and abused a woman who blindly trusted him as well. Dispicable.

.

Isnt all of that a bit open to interpretation? Or is there something specific that clarifies exactly what was going on. We see so little of Howe and Loghain throughout the game, its a bit hard to tell what is going on just from a culmative 5 minutes of screentime (I exagerrate but you get the idea..)

[mousestalker]

Koyasha wrote...

If Alistair had shown up as an NPC during the final battle, it would have been understandable. He won't work directly with Loghain or the PC that spares Loghain, but he does show up to help stop the Blight. This would be an understandable and reasonable reaction given everything we know about him.
As it is, however, it's inexcusable and it's him putting petty vengeance over everything, abandoning everything he professed to care about throughout the entire game up to that point.

This. When he pitched his little fit and then was a 'no-show' I started thinking of him as the 'boy-king'. 

[Saurel]

Riordan really should have interjected...I mean he interjected when Loghain was about to be killed..

[robertthebard]

TeenZombie wrote...

Malaia wrote...

The problem is that Alistair leaving is completely out of character for him. That's my issue. He's someone that, even while he railed against bad decisions, he still allowed them. For instance, he tells you at Redcliffe that killing Conner might be the only solution, even though he gets angry with you for doing it in the end. He may have abandoned your party, but even an unhardened Alistair would have fought at the gates or something.

Regarding his "hissy" fit, well that part IS in character for an unhardened, child-like character. I still think he would have abandoned your PARTY but not the fight itself. And I even question that, I think he would have been angry, but Alistair was brave and dutiful.

*shrug*

I can understand most people being upset at this very out of character incident.

I believe it is out of character, but wouldn't you act out of character when a good friend decides to not only forgive your worst enemy for his crimes, but also decides to let the enemy join your party???

Alistair has deferred to your PCs lead up to this point, because you apparently are on his side.  Why would you expect him to give up everything he believes in, by letting Loghain join the party?  Loghain has exerted all his efforts towards destroying all Grey Wardens, and everything they believe in, up till he is defeated in the duel.  Alistair is just acting like a SANE, logical individual by not welcoming this psychopath into the party. 

Sorry he's not psychic, evil, or a giant douchebag like your character.

My "side" is stopping the Blight.  While Riordan doesn't lay out what the reason is at the Landsmeet, he does make it clear that there is a compelling reason to have as many Grey Wardens as possible to kill the Archdemon.  Nothing about Alistair's reaction is sane or logical.  If he wasn't harping on being a Grey Warden, he was railing against being the King.  Now, all of a sudden, he wants to be the King, simply so he can overrule what you have done, for the good of Ferelden.  There is nothing sane or logical about this.  A soft Alistair will leave the country.  Nothing much sane or logical there either.  He's now helping stop the blight by running away, just like he tries to say that dying killing the Archdemon is the best King he can be.  While this last is debateable, what good did running away do for either Ferelden, or the person that considered his friend, who now has to face the blight alone, as far as Alistair knows, since not everyone survives the Joining.  With friends like that, who needs enemies.

[paleobones]

No way Howe would be joining my party.



I'm really kinda tired of the Alistair vs. Loghain debate.to me Alistair feels completely betrayed by you AND believes that you have doomed Ferelden. That's why he doesn't join the battle, to him there is no point. I haven't and will never choose Loghain over Alistair.



I am curious though have you Loghain supporters ever stopped to think that if Flemeth hadn't saved you and Alistair from the tower that Loghain's treacherous plan to destroy all the grey wardens in Ferelden would have succeeded and that single act of betrayal would have destroyed Ferelden?

[Herr Uhl]

paleobones wrote...
I am curious though have you Loghain supporters ever stopped to think that if Flemeth hadn't saved you and Alistair from the tower that Loghain's treacherous plan to destroy all the grey wardens in Ferelden would have succeeded and that single act of betrayal would have destroyed Ferelden?

Yes, yes we have. Your point being?

[Saurel]

We don't care about Ferelden We're all heretics.

[sleepy__head]

cglasgow wrote...

To everyone upset about Alistair's hissy fit about recruiting Loghain, just one thought:

How would your human noble character react to Alistair deciding that Arl Howe should be recruited into the Grey Wardens?

Knowing that the attempt to join the order is a crapshoot that can cost one his life, and also know that being a Grey Warden is a death sentence because even if the darkspawn doesn't kill you the taint in you will do you in, I won't feel too bad about it.

Its kinda like putting a sword each in the hands of all the rapists, pedos and child molesters, call them "Honor Guard" and send them in as the first wave of an attack in Afghan as shock troops.  Save MILLIONS on tax payers' money.  Great way to reduce the budget deficit.

[Herr Uhl]

sleepy__head wrote...

Its kinda like putting a sword each in the hands of all the rapists, pedos and child molesters, call them "Honor Guard" and send them in as the first wave of an attack in Afghan as shock troops.  Save MILLIONS on tax payers' money.  Great way to reduce the budget deficit.

That is kind of what the dwarves do.

[TheGreenLion]

Obviously, Flemeth ought to be Queen....for her uh, merits?

[robertthebard]

paleobones wrote...

No way Howe would be joining my party.

I'm really kinda tired of the Alistair vs. Loghain debate.to me Alistair feels completely betrayed by you AND believes that you have doomed Ferelden. That's why he doesn't join the battle, to him there is no point. I haven't and will never choose Loghain over Alistair.

I am curious though have you Loghain supporters ever stopped to think that if Flemeth hadn't saved you and Alistair from the tower that Loghain's treacherous plan to destroy all the grey wardens in Ferelden would have succeeded and that single act of betrayal would have destroyed Ferelden?

As a non-Loghain supporter, I have considered this.  However, just because I don't support Loghain doesn't mean that I'm willing to overlook the fact that Alistair is not what he pretends to be.  Or maybe, he is exactly as he presents himself, the 10 year old boy that gets packed off to the Chantry, destroying his mother's amulet on the way out.  He shows exactly that kind of emotional maturity when I did let Loghain live.  The self sacrificing finish will include me killing Alistair in the Landsmeet.  Between his crappy attitude towards my elf when I RP'd my shock that he was Maric's son, and his crappy attitude when I tried to apologize for being shocked, which, by the way, why should I have to apologize to him for him holding out vital information in the first place, he deserves it.  Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, and a scorned City Elf female is pretty irksome, ask Vaughn.

So yeah, feel free to defend that tantrum, but please feel free to explain his tantrum at you saying you don't know who he is after he's lied to you the whole game about who he is.  We all know it's really the PC's fault that he can't deal with that too, right?  RIP Alistair, you have this death coming.

[eschilde]

Herr Uhl wrote...

sleepy__head wrote...

Its kinda like putting a sword each in the hands of all the rapists, pedos and child molesters, call them "Honor Guard" and send them in as the first wave of an attack in Afghan as shock troops.  Save MILLIONS on tax payers' money.  Great way to reduce the budget deficit.

That is kind of what the dwarves do.

Huh? I thought they just burned their faces with hot irons and corraled them off in a corner. They only send the rapists, pedos and child molesters to the front line if they came from families that have money.

[Herr Uhl]

eschilde wrote...
Huh? I thought they just burned their faces with hot irons and corraled them off in a corner. They only send the rapists, pedos and child molesters to the front line if they came from families that have money.

I thought the legion took in anybody, despite rank. And the castless are not casteless because of being rapists, murderers or fiends in general.

But for the most heinous crimes, they would be executed on the spot though.

[druidofwarp]

So you do all realize that Grey Wardens are not a different life form right? That they have thoughts wants and desires besides stopping the darkspawn? That not all of them like being Grey Wardens and are basically forced to serve? So why is Alistair(a sentient life form first GW second) not allowed to want this one thing, the one thing he repeatedly talks about that is taking revenge against Loghain? Just because you want some extra manpower against a Blight? This man has absolutely NO honor why would you even trust him?

So stop with all this " A Grey Warden should only care about stopping the Blight and should be an emotionally challenged robot" no one here can fairly say that because no one actually undertook anything like this themselves. Besides I dont want a robot protecting me I saw what happens in Terminator XD.

Yes Loghain is popular, but that matters for nothing at all. Being a cool guy does not excuse you from being held to the same moral/ethical standards everyone else is. He commited high treason and wasted very valuable men simply because he doesnt want Orlesians in his country. If someone is short-sighted its him. His paranoia almost doomed the world, and killed many others. Alistair is perfectly justified in wanting him dead.

Now him leaving, I personally feel this has more to do with the fact that they had a constraint on how many party members(same reason you can't recruit Jowan IIRC) and needed to give a reason why he left. Otherwise this is very OOC for him

Edit: Yes Alistair is a complete child that is why he steps up to the plate and studies governance to become a better king to his people. He's definitely a child-like fool you know not warmongering and selling all the elves into slavery and kidnapping maleficar to use them to cause civil war.

Modifié par druidofwarp, 18 décembre 2009 - 03:41 .

[Saurel]

TheGreenLion wrote...

Obviously, Flemeth ought to be Queen....for her uh, merits?

Flemmeth would be an interesting Queen. You would probably have surprising social reform in some areas, with a bunch of weird morally dubious stuff happening. Arcane horrors being made into a Crimson Guard like force... villages occasionally being overrun by skeletons.

Like on a regular occasion.

Modifié par Saurel, 18 décembre 2009 - 03:37 .

[eschilde]

Herr Uhl wrote...

eschilde wrote...
Huh? I thought they just burned their faces with hot irons and corraled them off in a corner. They only send the rapists, pedos and child molesters to the front line if they came from families that have money.

I thought the legion took in anybody, despite rank. And the castless are not casteless because of being rapists, murderers or fiends in general.

But for the most heinous crimes, they would be executed on the spot though.

Hm, I don't actually know the requirements for being in the Legion, but you can't join the regular dwarven army if you're casteless, and the casteless in general are born from those who lost their caste due to crimes and whatnot. I am not sure if you commit a crime and become casteless, you get branded, or something? Depends on what you do, probably.

I just said what I said because of Ruck. He says he goes to the Deep Roads with the army because his alternative was the mines and everyone would know he killed a man.