199 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

druidofwarp wrote...

So you do all realize that Grey Wardens are not a different life form right? That they have thoughts wants and desires besides stopping the darkspawn? That not all of them like being Grey Wardens and are basically forced to serve? So why is Alistair(a sentient life form first GW second) not allowed to want this one thing, the one thing he repeatedly talks about that is taking revenge against Loghain? Just because you want some extra manpower against a Blight? This man has absolutely NO honor why would you even trust him?

So stop with all this " A Grey Warden should only care about stopping the Blight and should be an emotionally challenged robot" no one here can fairly say that because no one actually undertook anything like this themselves. Besides I dont want a robot protecting me I saw what happens in Terminator XD.

Yes Loghain is popular, but that matters for nothing at all. Being a cool guy does not excuse you from being held to the same moral/ethical standards everyone else is. He commited high treason and wasted very valuable men simply because he doesnt want Orlesians in his country. If someone is short-sighted its him. His paranoia almost doomed the world, and killed many others. Alistair is perfectly justified in wanting him dead.

Now him leaving, I personally feel this has more to do with the fact that they had a constraint on how many party members(same reason you can't recruit Jowan IIRC) and needed to give a reason why he left. Otherwise this is very OOC for him

No, it's very in character for him.  See my previous post about his hissy fit when I told him that I didn't know who he was anymore.  Romance went from Adore to Friendly, and I lost 15 points?  Then I had to apologize to him for him being pissy about me not knowing who he was, and one of the options included in my responses was "Or you could just be an ass", and that's because he was being an ass about it.  So no, other than the fact that he did not leave the country and go get drunk, the hissy fit and attitude are very much in character for him.  Only in this, it's a situation that he caused by withholding details about himself, to quote him, "I hoped it would go away".  So no, being totally childish about things is not out of character for him.

[Herr Uhl]

eschilde wrote...
Hm, I don't actually know the requirements for being in the Legion, but you can't join the regular dwarven army if you're casteless, and the casteless in general are born from those who lost their caste due to crimes and whatnot. I am not sure if you commit a crime and become casteless, you get branded, or something? Depends on what you do, probably.

I just said what I said because of Ruck. He says he goes to the Deep Roads with the army because his alternative was the mines and everyone would know he killed a man.

The legion was what I originally meant. The army is for honorable people, that is why they took away Oghrens right to bear arms. And I don't remember Ruck saying anything about the he was sent there because he killed a man.

[druidofwarp]

You become castless because a long time ago your ancestor did something bad and had his name removed from the memories then bred leading to you not being in a house or caste

[eschilde]

Herr Uhl wrote...

eschilde wrote...
Hm, I don't actually know the requirements for being in the Legion, but you can't join the regular dwarven army if you're casteless, and the casteless in general are born from those who lost their caste due to crimes and whatnot. I am not sure if you commit a crime and become casteless, you get branded, or something? Depends on what you do, probably.

I just said what I said because of Ruck. He says he goes to the Deep Roads with the army because his alternative was the mines and everyone would know he killed a man.

The legion was what I originally meant. The army is for honorable people, that is why they took away Oghrens right to bear arms. And I don't remember Ruck saying anything about the he was sent there because he killed a man.

If you ask him about his mother, he'll say something about it. I don't remember the exact wording, obviously he's a little far gone, but it's something to the extent of, "I got angry.. then someone was dead.. I couldn't go to the mines, because everyone would know, so I came here."

[Herr Uhl]

eschilde wrote...
If you ask him about his mother, he'll say something about it. I don't remember the exact wording, obviously he's a little far gone, but it's something to the extent of, "I got angry.. then someone was dead.. I couldn't go to the mines, because everyone would know, so I came here."

That is why he stays in the deep roads, not why he came there. He did not join the army, I think.

[druidofwarp]

robertthebard wrote...

No, it's very in character for him.  See my previous post about his hissy fit when I told him that I didn't know who he was anymore.  Romance went from Adore to Friendly, and I lost 15 points?  Then I had to apologize to him for him being pissy about me not knowing who he was, and one of the options included in my responses was "Or you could just be an ass", and that's because he was being an ass about it.  So no, other than the fact that he did not leave the country and go get drunk, the hissy fit and attitude are very much in character for him.  Only in this, it's a situation that he caused by withholding details about himself, to quote him, "I hoped it would go away".  So no, being totally childish about things is not out of character for him.

Yes because you knowing Alistair was a royal bastard immidieatly would help you how? How would it make a difference? He tells you only when its actually important. He gave you reasons why he didnt tell you because he liked you and didnt want you to treat him differently, which you then did treat him differently. So he got upset. This just in Alistair is human and has flaws, he still risks his life fighting darkspawn and where is Loghain? Oh right trying to kill you because he hates Orlais that much.

[eschilde]

Herr Uhl wrote...

eschilde wrote...
If you ask him about his mother, he'll say something about it. I don't remember the exact wording, obviously he's a little far gone, but it's something to the extent of, "I got angry.. then someone was dead.. I couldn't go to the mines, because everyone would know, so I came here."

That is why he stays in the deep roads, not why he came there. He did not join the army, I think.

He didn't, he went as their blacksmith or some such. But he was given the opportunity to go there vs. wherever actual criminals go.

[robertthebard]

druidofwarp wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

No, it's very in character for him.  See my previous post about his hissy fit when I told him that I didn't know who he was anymore.  Romance went from Adore to Friendly, and I lost 15 points?  Then I had to apologize to him for him being pissy about me not knowing who he was, and one of the options included in my responses was "Or you could just be an ass", and that's because he was being an ass about it.  So no, other than the fact that he did not leave the country and go get drunk, the hissy fit and attitude are very much in character for him.  Only in this, it's a situation that he caused by withholding details about himself, to quote him, "I hoped it would go away".  So no, being totally childish about things is not out of character for him.

Yes because you knowing Alistair was a royal bastard immidieatly would help you how? How would it make a difference? He tells you only when its actually important. He gave you reasons why he didnt tell you because he liked you and didnt want you to treat him differently, which you then did treat him differently. So he got upset. This just in Alistair is human and has flaws, he still risks his life fighting darkspawn and where is Loghain? Oh right trying to kill you because he hates Orlais that much.

This excuses his outburst how?  By saying that as a PC in a romance with him, he's allowed to be emotionally changed by finding out something about me, but I'm supposed to metagame my responses to him to keep him from throwing hissy fits?

[EricHVela]

I'd let him join the GWs and make him take the killing blow without doing the devil's deal with the Morrigan.

[druidofwarp]

robertthebard wrote...

This excuses his outburst how?  By saying that as a PC in a romance with him, he's allowed to be emotionally changed by finding out something about me, but I'm supposed to metagame my responses to him to keep him from throwing hissy fits?

You hardly have to metagame your responses, you knew that he was worried about telling you because he told you he was. Then you blew up in his face about it and got all upset, which in turn got him upset. Now you are both upset and are equal. So how are you better than him?

[robertthebard]

druidofwarp wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

This excuses his outburst how?  By saying that as a PC in a romance with him, he's allowed to be emotionally changed by finding out something about me, but I'm supposed to metagame my responses to him to keep him from throwing hissy fits?

You hardly have to metagame your responses, you knew that he was worried about telling you because he told you he was. Then you blew up in his face about it and got all upset, which in turn got him upset. Now you are both upset and are equal. So how are you better than him?

In the very first dialog in camp after I found out, I RP'd being surprised and told him I didn't know who he was anymore.  This is not blowing up in his face about it, this is expressing how my PC felt.  So this, in your view is wrong.  I have to mollycoddle him along because he's had a hard life?  Despite my being kidnapped by a Noble from my wedding and watching one of my friends, and my fiance die?  OK, I can tell where this conversation is going to go.  So let me paraphrase your responses for you:

Alistair had a harder life than any PC will ever have, and is perfectly justified in being a total ass if you're not licking his boots in every dialog.

Pretty much sums it up, wouldn't you say?  We will totally disregard that he has been lying to the PC from Day 1.  This is, after all, perfectly justifiable.  However, the PC, being shocked about his lying, and the nature of that lie is unacceptable behavior, thus meaning that yes, I either have to metagame and lick his boots, or suffer his wrath because everything he does is ok, but nothing I do is right, unless I'm being a boot licker.

[druidofwarp]

robertthebard wrote...

In the very first dialog in camp after I found out, I RP'd being surprised and told him I didn't know who he was anymore.  This is not blowing up in his face about it, this is expressing how my PC felt.  So this, in your view is wrong.  I have to mollycoddle him along because he's had a hard life?  Despite my being kidnapped by a Noble from my wedding and watching one of my friends, and my fiance die?  OK, I can tell where this conversation is going to go.  So let me paraphrase your responses for you:

Alistair had a harder life than any PC will ever have, and is perfectly justified in being a total ass if you're not licking his boots in every dialog.

Pretty much sums it up, wouldn't you say?  We will totally disregard that he has been lying to the PC from Day 1.  This is, after all, perfectly justifiable.  However, the PC, being shocked about his lying, and the nature of that lie is unacceptable behavior, thus meaning that yes, I either have to metagame and lick his boots, or suffer his wrath because everything he does is ok, but nothing I do is right, unless I'm being a boot licker.

Your posts made you sound as though you also blew up about it, my mistake.

Right because you having a harder life automatically invalidates all his problems right? Yes your PC did have a harder life, but some else had a harder life than you. Still this doesnt stop your PC from complaining. Alistair does deserve some sympathy in that hes never been able to choose a path of life for himself.

But here we are again, Alistair didn't tell you it because he had 2 reasons:

1. Completely unimportant up till then. When would him have telling you before the point that he did have benefitted you in anyway other than in making you feel better?

2. He clearly states, people react to him differently when he tells them who is he. This is something he does not like. You then make a big deal of it and treat him differently. Now he is upset because you have proven to be like everyone else.

Really you dont want to coddle him? Maybe did you ever think that he feels that he shouldn't have to react with approval to everything you say to him?

Really he was lying since day 1? I guess you got some secret dialouge where he specifically told you he was NOT the son of Maric when you meet him in Ostagar. Oh he was lying by omission? I guess you also told him every single detail about your heritage? Even if you did why would you expect him to tell you unless he was ready? He doesn't owe you anything so don't act like your entitled to have Alistair be your slave.

[thegreateski]

Herr Uhl wrote...

sleepy__head wrote...

Its kinda like putting a sword each in the hands of all the rapists, pedos and child molesters, call them "Honor Guard" and send them in as the first wave of an attack in Afghan as shock troops.  Save MILLIONS on tax payers' money.  Great way to reduce the budget deficit.

That is kind of what the dwarves do.

It's EXACTLY what they do.

[Herr Uhl]

thegreateski wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
That is kind of what the dwarves do.

It's EXACTLY what they do.

They do not call them "honor guard" though.

[thegreateski]

Herr Uhl wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
That is kind of what the dwarves do.

It's EXACTLY what they do.

They do not call them "honor guard" though.

You're right they don't. At the same time however they seem to regard them highly.

Not entirely sure why.

[robertthebard]

druidofwarp wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

In the very first dialog in camp after I found out, I RP'd being surprised and told him I didn't know who he was anymore.  This is not blowing up in his face about it, this is expressing how my PC felt.  So this, in your view is wrong.  I have to mollycoddle him along because he's had a hard life?  Despite my being kidnapped by a Noble from my wedding and watching one of my friends, and my fiance die?  OK, I can tell where this conversation is going to go.  So let me paraphrase your responses for you:

Alistair had a harder life than any PC will ever have, and is perfectly justified in being a total ass if you're not licking his boots in every dialog.

Pretty much sums it up, wouldn't you say?  We will totally disregard that he has been lying to the PC from Day 1.  This is, after all, perfectly justifiable.  However, the PC, being shocked about his lying, and the nature of that lie is unacceptable behavior, thus meaning that yes, I either have to metagame and lick his boots, or suffer his wrath because everything he does is ok, but nothing I do is right, unless I'm being a boot licker.

Your posts made you sound as though you also blew up about it, my mistake.

Right because you having a harder life automatically invalidates all his problems right? Yes your PC did have a harder life, but some else had a harder life than you. Still this doesnt stop your PC from complaining. Alistair does deserve some sympathy in that hes never been able to choose a path of life for himself.

But here we are again, Alistair didn't tell you it because he had 2 reasons:

1. Completely unimportant up till then. When would him have telling you before the point that he did have benefitted you in anyway other than in making you feel better?

2. He clearly states, people react to him differently when he tells them who is he. This is something he does not like. You then make a big deal of it and treat him differently. Now he is upset because you have proven to be like everyone else.

Really you dont want to coddle him? Maybe did you ever think that he feels that he shouldn't have to react with approval to everything you say to him?

Really he was lying since day 1? I guess you got some secret dialouge where he specifically told you he was NOT the son of Maric when you meet him in Ostagar. Oh he was lying by omission? I guess you also told him every single detail about your heritage? Even if you did why would you expect him to tell you unless he was ready? He doesn't owe you anything so don't act like your entitled to have Alistair be your slave.

My paraphrasing pretty much sums up your reply.  A lie of omission is still a lie.  When the King is dead in a field in Ostagar, and the heir apparent is standing right next to you, it behooves him to tell you, instead of, again in his words to Morrigan in dialog, "hoping it would go away".  As Morrigan states, the truth does not simply go away.

Of course people would treat him differently, finding out who he is, and yes, some of it would be bad.  However, this does not justify him having a hissy fit about my PC being shocked to learn who he is, from Arl Eamon, no less.  Yes, I went to Redcliffe the first time w/out Alistair in my party, so I didn't know until almost time for the Landsmeet.  Gee, you would think that somewhere in that time, or in the time they spent in the "loving" relationship, that he would have generated enough trust to tell her.  Instead, it's he expects her to apologize for being shocked to learn who he is.

You can play any card you want here, but it is childish, and uncalled for.  If I'd used the "We can use this to our advantage" lines, I'd expect his outburst.  However, since that's not how it went down, he got pissy simply because he might have to live up to some responsibility concerning his birthright?  It's not like my PC tried to manipulate his bloodline, she was just shocked at learning that she was having an affair with the rightful King.  Saying she would be wrong to have that reaction, considering her City Elf origin, is naive to the extreme, or simply trying to further justify Alistair's hissy fit in camp about it, both during that dialog and when I tried to apologize for his hissy fit.  Because yeah, his emotional luggage is all my fault, right?

[ABCoLD]

druidofwarp wrote...

Really he was lying since day 1? I guess you got some secret dialouge where he specifically told you he was NOT the son of Maric when you meet him in Ostagar. Oh he was lying by omission? I guess you also told him every single detail about your heritage? Even if you did why would you expect him to tell you unless he was ready? He doesn't owe you anything so don't act like your entitled to have Alistair be your slave.

When the king died Alistair had a legal claim to the throne.  Immediately after Ostagar he should have said "Oh, by the way, it might be important when we're trying to unite the country that I have a legal claim on the throne.  If you think we could use that to unite the people to fight the Blight then I'm up to trying."  He doesn't say that.  When he finally does tell you it's because he's suddenly faced with a situation in which he can't not tell you anymore, you're going to talk to the man that raised him about trying to overthrow Loghain and he knows the man will bring it up.  He even admits he should have told you immediately after Ostagar... but it was too hard.

I like Alistair, I think he's a nice guy.  Both of my females that I've played through have romanced him.  He's also a really huge puss who evades problems and throws tantrums.  

And in regards to your post about Grey Wardens being sentient humans, the first rule of being a Grey Warden is: Stop the Blight, by any means necessary.  (Also no matter what the cost.)

He should man up and just do his job, but he runs away.

[Drunkencelt]

That is a really dumb comparison seeing as how a crazy Logain still saved Ferelden and Arl Howe never did a damn thing.



I equate you recruiting Loghain though, to the Jewish Europeans recruiting Hilter towards the end of WW2. He murdered your entire order in cold blood, and most of the army. It WAS HIS PLAN, and he never intended to take the field.

[druidofwarp]

To Robert: I think that Alistair didn't hear what text option you gave him you said roughly "I dont know you anymore" thats more than just being shocked that seems to imply you were a bit mad about it, regardless of whether that was you intention by choosing that dialouge I think Alistair hears something else. So he thinks you were mad so he got mad.



A lie of omission is a lie to you I doubt Alistair sees it that way, but hell why say that it obviously doesnt occur to people to try and see things from his point of view. I mean do you not realize he really doesnt want to be king or even talk about it. Maybe he never feels comfortable talking about it, you can't decide he should just because you're in a relationship that he owes it to you to tell you things he doesnt want to talk about.



And if he didnt tell you untill that late its probably the devs fault for not programming a script where he tells you later at camp if he's not with you at recliffe



To ABC: He really found it hard to talk about it for whatever reason. By tantrum do you mean when you kill Connor/Isolde, or when you try to force him into a position he makes clear he never wanted.



And why should he man up and do his job a job that was forced upon him? Because you guys demand it, because the world demands it? The world never let him choose a thing in his life he doesnt owe it anything

[Saurel]

Drunkencelt wrote...


I equate you recruiting Loghain though, to the Jewish Europeans recruiting Hilter towards the end of WW2. He murdered your entire order in cold blood, and most of the army. It WAS HIS PLAN, and he never intended to take the field.

I really don't think Loghain is close to being as bad as Hitler....even remotely..... Though I get what your getting at.

Hes more like a certian somebody in MW2.

Modifié par Saurel, 18 décembre 2009 - 06:22 .

[Rainen89]

Drunkencelt wrote...

That is a really dumb comparison seeing as how a crazy Logain still saved Ferelden and Arl Howe never did a damn thing.

I equate you recruiting Loghain though, to the Jewish Europeans recruiting Hilter towards the end of WW2. He murdered your entire order in cold blood, and most of the army. It WAS HIS PLAN, and he never intended to take the field.

He didn't murder them, he left them to potentially die but you have no guarantee your "order" wouldn't have died to the darkspawn anyway. Please do not equate retreating because of a failed battle plan/betrayal scheme to WW II's mass genocide.

[druidofwarp]

Rainen89 wrote...

Drunkencelt wrote...

That is a really dumb comparison seeing as how a crazy Logain still saved Ferelden and Arl Howe never did a damn thing.

I equate you recruiting Loghain though, to the Jewish Europeans recruiting Hilter towards the end of WW2. He murdered your entire order in cold blood, and most of the army. It WAS HIS PLAN, and he never intended to take the field.

He didn't murder them, he left them to potentially die but you have no guarantee your "order" wouldn't have died to the darkspawn anyway. Please do not equate retreating because of a failed battle plan/betrayal scheme to WW II's mass genocide.

Desertion is desertion.

[Joey Foster]

Well, two different people in which one Howe is just some noble scum who wants more money/power, though I haven't played the human Noble origins yet, this is what I gather and so I'd behead him without a seconds thought, besides he doesn't really bring anything to the table of killing the Arch-demon and ending the blight?

Loghain on the other hand, is skilled, hes a great fighter and a brilliant General, who's got a huge amount of experience on the battlefield, from planning and expediting tactics and maneuvers and making decisions regarding battles of a war. He just got sloppy, he didn't want his men to die on the battlefield, he didn't want his friend to actually die - but they had to becuase he thought he was doing the right thing. Hes sorry, to a point, for what he did.

Loghain won't turn on you if you recruit him, he knows the blight needs to be stopped in its tracks, and he would do anything to protect Fereldan.
Howe though would either rather not go through with the joining and fight try to kill you again, try and run off an die trying, do the joining and while you sleep he'd slit your throat and rob any valuables and run.

So ye, Howe is just complete different, but on the case with Alistair going off if you spare Loghain, I undersatnd a little. Though as others have said he should have left your party, but been there for the final fight - perhaps even spare a word or two.
Also I think Alistair would of changed his mind if Duncan was around, because Alistair is still a young Grey Warden, his views would change over time. I think there average Grey Warden goes from been revengeful but by the end of a year or two, after learning from there mentors, there views would change and mold into how a Grey Warden should be, been more accepting and perhaps forgiving when theirs a job to do.

Anyway I don't get Alistiar, why does he cry so much about Duncans death? I thought they only knew each other for 6 months or something (Forget where I get the 6 months from, probably the forums...) I mean they were friends, Alistair looked up to him as a Father, but the PC goes through SO much more, my Noble Dwarf was wrote of the memories, his brother who I didn't necessarily praise but I respected was killed, my other Brother set me up for his death, my Father pretty much disowned me, realized what he had done and died before I even got a chance to return to him. Oh ye, I also have a son that I never got a chance to see...

Anyway, I still made sure he was alright, every time my character went through something bad such as finding out my Father had died from a rumor in a pub in Lothering (I know, how terrible to find out from someone you don't know ), or that I have a son with a mother who just wants wealth and Alistair came up to me crying about Duncan I didn't givew him the finger, I helped him out and told him was alright. Yet he forgets this and goes of crying, not even coming back for the final battle. Well forget him.

Modifié par Joey Foster, 18 décembre 2009 - 07:29 .

[Mnemnosyne]

druidofwarp wrote...

Really he was lying since day 1? I guess you got some secret dialouge where he specifically told you he was NOT the son of Maric when you meet him in Ostagar. Oh he was lying by omission? I guess you also told him every single detail about your heritage? Even if you did why would you expect him to tell you unless he was ready? He doesn't owe you anything so don't act like your entitled to have Alistair be your slave.

It's not just a lie of omission.  If you ask him if he knows who his father is during the conversation that he tells you he's a bastard, he says his father died even before his mother.  This is blatantly false, as Maric died only four or five years ago, and his mother died either while giving birth to him or immediately after, from what Goldanna says.

[Daneres]

I don't mind spoilers. Can anyone whose finished the game tell me what happens with Alistair and a female character that's in a romance with him at the end? I intend to kill Loghain, if that helps any of the responses. If it's all going to go to hell then I'd rather keep my options open and not waste any more time. Maybe hook up with Zevran instead.