199 réponses à ce sujet

[TastyLaksa]

I think what happened was Alistair was supposed to appear in twilight but took a wrong turn and ended up in ferelden. He would have made a good emo vampire.

[Daneres]

I don't know if it matters, but his approval of my character is 100% Love already.

[Xandurpein]

This debate is all about comparing apples and oranges really. The original question was: would I as a human noble spare Howe's life in the same situation as Alistair was at the Landsmeet regarding Loghain. This is really a ropleplaying question. What ethics would my character have in such a situation. Of course this question in itself is two separate issues. (1) Do I think Howe (or Loghain) become a Grey Warden be helpful or not and (2) Do I want to kill the bastard regardless.

As Far As Loghain is concerned it is obvious that he did contribute to kill the Archdemon, as for what Howe would have did in the same circumstances, we'll just never know, will we. Personally I would certainly have let Howe live if I thought it could have significantly increased the chance of defeating the Blight. The Blight is the end of all human life in Ferelden. Making Howe KING is better than that. But I have no real problem if other people want to roleplay their characters differently. This is not a question with a "true" and a "false" answer

The question wether Loghain was worse of better than Howe is really a completely different question. In my book Howe is worse than Loghain, but I'd still make him King of Ferelden IF I thought it would help us survive the Blight.

Finally, yet another question is whether the player could see Alistair's tantrum coming or not. I personally think it should have been hinted better, but maybe that is partly because I pretty much avoided saying things that would annoy him up until then, so I never saw that side of him.

While all of the above questions are interesting, they are all separate issues.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 18 décembre 2009 - 08:58 .

[menasure]

i woud use arl howe as grey warden... though with the reaver spec and acting as storm trooper on his own while my squad would follow lol. any darkspawn he takes with him before he dies would help my cause

Modifié par menasure, 18 décembre 2009 - 09:33 .

[Vormaerin]

Not everyone puts the same value on expressing their hatred. Just because I hate Howe does not mean that my only legitimate reaction to him is to kill him.



Loghain does not go unpunished if you recruit him. He is stripped of his title as Teyrn, removed from command of the army, subjected to a potentially lethal ritual, and given the death sentence that is the taint.



Ser Jory and Alistair believe the Gray Wardens are some kind of band of paladins and its a great honor to join the order. Riordan and my character do not believe that at all. I think the Gray Wardens are functionally equivalent to the Legion of the Dead: They take anyone that's willing to serve and can keep from getting executed long enough to reach a recruiter...



I also think that Loghain and Howe are entirely different sorts of people. Howe is a greedy, treacherous snake who is out for himself at every opportunity. Loghain is ruthless man who does some foul things, but he's fundamentally honest. He doesn't give whiny excuses or deny things. If you confront him, he says "Yeah, I did that because I felt it was necessary."



Howe is completely untrustworthy. Loghain you can trust implicitly, as long as you understand him. He's fanatically dedicated to Ferelden. Not to the King or the Landsmeet or any of that, but to the nation itself. He turns on Cailan because he believes Cailan is betraying Ferelden. If Cailan had never invited an Orlesian army into Ferelden, he'd still be King.



I have no problem recruiting Loghain, because I know he'll do everything in his power to save Ferelden. His judgement is horribly flawed at this point, but his integrity is not. As a Gray Warden, he's not exercising his political or ethical judgement. He's fighting, end of story.

[Alexus_VG]

The OP has a point but even beyond that I'm not sure why there are so many people complaining about this or trying to rationalize Alistair"s bahviour. It's an irrational reaction to a situation the character is emoitanally involved in and I for one found it quite refreshing to see something like that in a game. It makes Alister's character seem a little more flawed and therefore three dimentional. I don't believe that all story decisions should be made to player please so long as they are to the benefit of telling a better story or creating more life like NPCs.

[Zan Mura]

That is a good point. Though I claim the situation is quite different.

Alistair had only been a grey warden for a year, meaning he got roughly one year to get to know and at some point befriend Duncan. Additionally, their life had been one of combat and preparation for war since the start. And Loghain never directly attacked them, he just abandoned them because of his misguided beliefs in what was best for ferelden.

As a Human Noble you don't lose a father-figure and a few friends you met one year ago. You've not grown up in a world of war where it's an everyday reality that some of your friends might not live to see the next day. Instead, you lose your entire family, your whole life as you know it, and the legacy of a great family name because of a very personal betrayal by a man who isn't misguided: he's just an ego-centric, murderous, ruthless bastard.

Additionally, from an objective standpoint, you can trust Loghain to give his life for the country. His motives are pure, though his means were everything but. But place Howe in that position and recruit him as Grey Warden, and it's basically a given that he would stab you in the back and run from the Blight the first chance he got. Eventually of course the taint within him would take its toll and demand a confrontation with the Darkspawn, but that would be too late to matter.

So all things considered, if Howe were in the place of Loghain as the new Grey Warden recruit candidate, I would do one of two things: Kill him then and there, or take him with me against the Archdemon and kill him right after that.

But as said, Loghain and Howe are two completely different people. Loghain just made all the wrong decisions and you happened to be there to pay for them, but Howe is just plain trash without any redeeming qualities.

[DarkSpiral]

I shall address the original topic.



I would, in fact, have spared Howe, if the option was available. Death isn't a punishment for the man. I would have taken him alive, displayed his crimes to the Landsmeet, stripped him of his titles, and then had him publicly executed for treason (to his Teryn, Bryce Cousland). THAT would have actually punished him. That would have hurt him.



However, I find it unlikely Riordan would have suggested Howe go through the Joining in the first place. Loghain had potential to survive the Joining do to his strength of will, whereas I seriously doubt Howe could have withstood the taint. And even if he could, there isn't any question about if you can trust Howe; Loghain can be trusted to do anything to save Ferelden, and once he is made to realize that the Blight is the ONLY thing that matters, immediately, you can be sure he won't stab you in the back. At least not right in the middle of the fight.



So, yeah I'd have kept Howe alive. For a while.

[fantasypisces]

Personally, I completely understand his hissy-fit, I completely understand him leaving the group. What I don't understand is him abandoning the duty he has claimed is a great honor. Yes that honor is now tainted, but I at least expected him to go up to the tower and fight, like Arl Eamon, like the First Enchantor (or Greagor), like the Legion of the Dead Dwarf. But nope, he either gets executed, evacuates the city and hides behind royal guards, or becomes a wandering drunk.



I still like the character, a lot, I just don't understand how he could so quickly "quit" and not at least fight. He says he loves the Grey Wardens, that he loves his country, yet by not fighting he abandoned both. He abandons his uncles, and the memory of Duncan. For these reasons I feel him not fighting (whether he leaves the group or not) goes completely against his character that was developing through the entire story.



If it was me and it was Howe to get recruited. I would freak out, tell Alistair (presuming he was leading the group) where he could f'ing shove it, then leave the group. But still fight my damndest to get to the top of the tower and help defend the nation. Alistair does not do this, and ergo becomes horrible horrible writing for him at the end.



So when I say I like Alistair, I like Alistair pre-landsmeet if you do recruit Loghain, and I like Alistair throughout the entire game if you don't save loghain.

[sinosleep]

ReggarBlane wrote...

I'd let him join the GWs and make him take the killing blow without doing the devil's deal with the Morrigan.

That's what I did in one of my playthroughs, thought it made for a fitting end. Let him redeem himself by getting the killing blow and going out a hero (also got me bonus points with the bride to be Anora), but get vengeance in knowing he was toast as soon as he joined the Wardens. 

[ozsras]

To answer the OP:

As the Human Noble origin is my favorite I've replayed it several times and I've found something quite interesting. If, right after Ostagar, had gone directly to get Eamon and then to the Landsmeet - No, I would have gleefully killed Howe. Then had Morrigan animate his dead corpse and kill him over and over again several times more. But I've found that after going through all the crap to unite Ferelden - Zatherien and his unrelenting vengence, the dwarves, the Tower (and Cullen - I loved how *angry* he was it was awesome) *I* (my human pc) had changed.

I wanted to let Howe live, not because I suddenly cared about him or his redemption (if he could ever care about redeeming himself, I quite doubt that) , but because Howe was up to some nasty ****. And since I would be probably right in the middle of trying to get Lohgain to yield or get the nobles to wise up about him, I *needed* evidence. And Howe would certainly be the kind of guy to have that evidence. Even if it was the made up kind. (this was before I knew about Anora giving the PC info on the Alienage and the Slavery evidence)

And when I got to Denerium and had to help pick a ruler I think I should be privy to, you know, what the hell Howe and Lohgain have been up to. Because seriously if you think slavery is all they have been up to since the PC went to Ostagar...that's crazy, it's been like, what?, *two years*? My Human Noble took what his dad said seriously. Couslands always do their duty and they always do what is right for Ferelden. Picking the right leader of Ferelden, imho, is just as important as stopping the Blight. But he (my PC) didn't care too much for the Wardens after Duncan made his father swear to give his son to the GW all while dying in a pool of his own blood so...yeah.

I would have kept Howe alive, if given the option, just like I wanted to keep Lohgain alive. Not because I suddenly felt all weepy over his death (although I do love how Lohgain totally accepted it and was very graceful about the whole thing) but because Lohgain doesn't have to die *right then* and because Riorden stressed and stressed it very hard that there needed to be more GW's. Which should make Alistair pause and think not *why* Riorden wants Lohgain alive but *what* is making Riorden stress recruiting Lohgain. To me, Alistair wasn't thinking at all because when I heard what Riorden was saying I got a *very* bad feeling all of a sudden. Alistair acted like, if Lohgain didn't die *right then*, it would be the end of the world. When, you know, the archdemon and the hordes of Darkspawn are the ones ending the world.

So yes, I would let Howe live and Lohgain. Vengence isn't everything especially when you can use the ones that hurt you to better your goals and then kill them when no one is looking. XD

Modifié par ozsras, 18 décembre 2009 - 01:02 .

[robertthebard]

druidofwarp wrote...

To Robert: I think that Alistair didn't hear what text option you gave him you said roughly "I dont know you anymore" thats more than just being shocked that seems to imply you were a bit mad about it, regardless of whether that was you intention by choosing that dialouge I think Alistair hears something else. So he thinks you were mad so he got mad.

So again, only his feelings are valid.  Glad we're clearing this up.

A lie of omission is a lie to you I doubt Alistair sees it that way, but hell why say that it obviously doesnt occur to people to try and see things from his point of view. I mean do you not realize he really doesnt want to be king or even talk about it. Maybe he never feels comfortable talking about it, you can't decide he should just because you're in a relationship that he owes it to you to tell you things he doesnt want to talk about.

He owes it because we're in a relationship that sparked because we're trying to save Ferelden, and the best hope of doing that is playing mind games with himself about being the heir to the throne.  Saying "I'm willing to do anything to stop the Blight, unless it causes me some pain, or discomfort" is not trying to save Ferelden, it's trying to save himself from who he is.  Sten says it best, "A man does not choose...".  No, Alistair didn't choose it, but it's him.

And if he didnt tell you untill that late its probably the devs fault for not programming a script where he tells you later at camp if he's not with you at recliffe

This equals Alistair's fault.  In game, you don't know it's a game and that he's only scripted to tell you at Redcliffe the very first time you go.

To ABC: He really found it hard to talk about it for whatever reason. By tantrum do you mean when you kill Connor/Isolde, or when you try to force him into a position he makes clear he never wanted.

And why should he man up and do his job a job that was forced upon him? Because you guys demand it, because the world demands it? The world never let him choose a thing in his life he doesnt owe it anything

He should man up to it because it's the right thing to do.  If you can't see this, I'm wasting my time.  He is the one that professes to love being a Grey Warden, and he will tell you flat out that he's not leaving Ferelden if you ask him "What would happen if we just left".  Another lie on his part, since if you don't harden him before the Landsmeet, he does exactly that.  So what he meant to say was "So long as I always get my way, and don't have to man up to who and what I am, then I'll be happy to be a Grey Warden".

Prior to the story kicking off in Ostagar, Alistair had been a Grey Warden for 6 months, not a year.  I don't know where everyone keeps getting the year from.  However, it's interesting to note that some here defending Alistair leaving would also condemn the PC for doing the Ritual.  With even less time in the Wardens, and quite possibly having no other choice than immediate death, or worse, City Elf origin, the PC is expected to live up to their duty and die fighting the Archdemon, but it's cool that Alistair has a hissy about sparing Loghain and either leaves the country to it's fate and becomes a drunk, or tries to wrest the crown from Anora for petty revenge, and leaving the party and Ferelden to their fate.  It's good to know where one's morals lie.

[Apophis2412]

cglasgow wrote...

To everyone upset about Alistair's hissy fit about recruiting Loghain, just one thought:

How would your human noble character react to Alistair deciding that Arl Howe should be recruited into the Grey Wardens?

Arl Howe is known to be an immoral unloyal bastard who will betray us the first chance he gets. He also has no followers, armies or resources than we can use in the war.  Lastly, he is not a great warrior. So why would I want to recruit him as a Grey Warden? 
If Alisatair wanted to recruit him I would not object however. I may not like it, but the fact remains that every Grey Warden is neccesary.

Loghain is a great general, warrior and hero to the people. Furthermore there are a lot of people still loyal to him. What ever he may have done is irrelevant. As has been stated manty times in the game Grey Wardens do not care about a person's past, they only care about your skill. Justice and vengeance may be the 'good' things to do , but winning the war has a much higher priority.

Some people have stated that Grey Wardens are not mindless robots. Like the rest of us they have emotions and feelings. That may be true, but as we can see from the actions of both Riordan and Duncan they will do anything to stop a Blight, wether it be recruiting criminals (Daveth, Loghain, Dwarven Commoner), pulling people away from their families (Jory, Dwarven Commoner, Human Noble) or outright conscripting them against their will (Human Noble, Mage, Dwarven Commoner).
Alistair is not like Riordan and Duncan and although this may make him human, he is not a true Grey Warden.

Last but not least it isn't only Alistair who failed the Grey Wardens. The player is also to blame. Throughout the game you spend a lot of time with Alistair and get to know him pretty well. From the onset you know that making Loghain a Grey Warden will pi*s him off. It is stupid to assume that Alistair would just shrug while you recruit the man who (in A's eyes) is responsible for a lot of evil.

[Sialater]

I dunno, he's kinda responsible for a lot of evil in my eyes, too.

[Recidiva]

cglasgow wrote...

To everyone upset about Alistair's hissy fit about recruiting Loghain, just one thought:

How would your human noble character react to Alistair deciding that Arl Howe should be recruited into the Grey Wardens?

I would lean down and kiss his plated feet.  Finally.  Some sense.

[druidofwarp]

robertthebard wrote...


So again, only his feelings are valid.  Glad we're clearing this up.


He owes it because we're in a relationship that sparked because we're trying to save Ferelden, and the best hope of doing that is playing mind games with himself about being the heir to the throne.  Saying "I'm willing to do anything to stop the Blight, unless it causes me some pain, or discomfort" is not trying to save Ferelden, it's trying to save himself from who he is.  Sten says it best, "A man does not choose...".  No, Alistair didn't choose it, but it's him.


This equals Alistair's fault.  In game, you don't know it's a game and that he's only scripted to tell you at Redcliffe the very first time you go.


He should man up to it because it's the right thing to do.  If you can't see this, I'm wasting my time.  He is the one that professes to love being a Grey Warden, and he will tell you flat out that he's not leaving Ferelden if you ask him "What would happen if we just left".  Another lie on his part, since if you don't harden him before the Landsmeet, he does exactly that.  So what he meant to say was "So long as I always get my way, and don't have to man up to who and what I am, then I'll be happy to be a Grey Warden".

Prior to the story kicking off in Ostagar, Alistair had been a Grey Warden for 6 months, not a year.  I don't know where everyone keeps getting the year from.  However, it's interesting to note that some here defending Alistair leaving would also condemn the PC for doing the Ritual.  With even less time in the Wardens, and quite possibly having no other choice than immediate death, or worse, City Elf origin, the PC is expected to live up to their duty and die fighting the Archdemon, but it's cool that Alistair has a hissy about sparing Loghain and either leaves the country to it's fate and becomes a drunk, or tries to wrest the crown from Anora for petty revenge, and leaving the party and Ferelden to their fate.  It's good to know where one's morals lie.

I think the problem is that because he's not your typical alpha male devil-can-go-suck-it video game guy, that he doesn't do everything you expect him to do,  people get upset with him.

He has feelings and your enitre argument pretty much attempts to invalidate them as a reason to do anything different than what you expect. I'm not saying only they matter but you argue as though only your feelings do.

Yes it is what would be right, but in real life people dont always do things because they are right and for the greater good(Loghain doesn't, otherwise he would have allied with Orlais to stop the Blight).

Yes because you character is totally alpha and never complains about duty, that it makes Alistair worthless as a human. He left because he felt personally betrayed by you. Right or not is debateable. What matters is that he has flaws and this makes him a good character.

Oh yeah and he can man up and do the right thing in some endings and not do so in others.

[Sialater]

Alistair's entitled to his opinion. Whether it matches mine or not. I'm not 100% in control of his character, which is kind of nice.

[Starmartyr]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Arl Howe is voiced by Tim Curry, I would kill Alastair to get him on my team, noble or no.

.

I feel the same way. I would so much rather have Tim Curry voice one of my companions than Steve Blum.
Now if only they would let me swap out Oghren to get Arl Howe on my team.

[druidofwarp]

Apophis2412 wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

To everyone upset about Alistair's hissy fit about recruiting Loghain, just one thought:

How would your human noble character react to Alistair deciding that Arl Howe should be recruited into the Grey Wardens?

Arl Howe is known to be an immoral unloyal bastard who will betray us the first chance he gets. He also has no followers, armies or resources than we can use in the war.  Lastly, he is not a great warrior. So why would I want to recruit him as a Grey Warden? 
If Alisatair wanted to recruit him I would not object however. I may not like it, but the fact remains that every Grey Warden is neccesary.

Loghain is a great general, warrior and hero to the people. Furthermore there are a lot of people still loyal to him. What ever he may have done is irrelevant. As has been stated manty times in the game Grey Wardens do not care about a person's past, they only care about your skill. Justice and vengeance may be the 'good' things to do , but winning the war has a much higher priority.

Some people have stated that Grey Wardens are not mindless robots. Like the rest of us they have emotions and feelings. That may be true, but as we can see from the actions of both Riordan and Duncan they will do anything to stop a Blight, wether it be recruiting criminals (Daveth, Loghain, Dwarven Commoner), pulling people away from their families (Jory, Dwarven Commoner, Human Noble) or outright conscripting them against their will (Human Noble, Mage, Dwarven Commoner).
Alistair is not like Riordan and Duncan and although this may make him human, he is not a true Grey Warden.

Last but not least it isn't only Alistair who failed the Grey Wardens. The player is also to blame. Throughout the game you spend a lot of time with Alistair and get to know him pretty well. From the onset you know that making Loghain a Grey Warden will pi*s him off. It is stupid to assume that Alistair would just shrug while you recruit the man who (in A's eyes) is responsible for a lot of evil.

Loghain adds nothing to the effort you would not already get. He commands no armies and has no title or resources to add. Other than personal skill, morale too i suppose.

Because Alistair breaks a tenet of the Grey Wardens he is not a true GW? Sophia Dryden(Warden Commander) tried to overthrow the king of Ferelden! Breaking a very imporant tenet of the Wardens about neutrality. People still consider her a Warden.

Yes they will because hell that's their character, I like a change its more realistic. I get tired of space marine "for the emperor!!!!1!" attitude because Duncan/Riordan are leaders and they have those attitudes, I dont expect every Warden to.

Agree on the last point.

[robertthebard]

druidofwarp wrote...

I think the problem is that because he's not your typical alpha male devil-can-go-suck-it video game guy, that he doesn't do everything you expect him to do,  people get upset with him.

He has feelings and your enitre argument pretty much attempts to invalidate them as a reason to do anything different than what you expect. I'm not saying only they matter but you argue as though only your feelings do.

Yes it is what would be right, but in real life people dont always do things because they are right and for the greater good(Loghain doesn't, otherwise he would have allied with Orlais to stop the Blight).

Yes because you character is totally alpha and never complains about duty, that it makes Alistair worthless as a human. He left because he felt personally betrayed by you. Right or not is debateable. What matters is that he has flaws and this makes him a good character.

Oh yeah and he can man up and do the right thing in some endings and not do so in others.

Nice way to try and twist what I said.  Again, Alistair has been lying to you since day 1.  You can rationalize it and justify it anyway you want, but this is the truth.  He doesn't want to be king, so the best way to keep from having it be an issue is to lie to you, the one person that has tried to be his friend.  I say tried because you know, lying to people to keep them as friends means that they aren't truly your friends, just little marionettes you can dance on a string.  This comes back to my earlier paraphrasing of your responses, however, and it's still working.

This is especially evident when you agree that the PC hasn't been much of a Grey Warden either, just because they made a decision that pissed off Alistair.  Who else made sure that the treaties were honored, or that other suitable allies were attained to fight the darkspawn?  It certainly didn't get done by Alistair alone, and if there were an option for the PC to split, and leave Alistair to do it alone, is there any evidence that he may succeed offered up by his character?  No.  It's more likely that he'll be in camp playing with his action figures, hoping the blight, like his heritage, would just go away.

[druidofwarp]

robertthebard wrote...


Nice way to try and twist what I said.  Again, Alistair has been lying to you since day 1.  You can rationalize it and justify it anyway you want, but this is the truth.  He doesn't want to be king, so the best way to keep from having it be an issue is to lie to you, the one person that has tried to be his friend.  I say tried because you know, lying to people to keep them as friends means that they aren't truly your friends, just little marionettes you can dance on a string.  This comes back to my earlier paraphrasing of your responses, however, and it's still working.

This is especially evident when you agree that the PC hasn't been much of a Grey Warden either, just because they made a decision that pissed off Alistair.  Who else made sure that the treaties were honored, or that other suitable allies were attained to fight the darkspawn?  It certainly didn't get done by Alistair alone, and if there were an option for the PC to split, and leave Alistair to do it alone, is there any evidence that he may succeed offered up by his character?  No.  It's more likely that he'll be in camp playing with his action figures, hoping the blight, like his heritage, would just go away.

I'm no more twisting what you said, than you are twisting Alistairs actions. Just because he lied to you doesn't mean he isn't your friend just because he doesn't share his deepest secrets that he's afraid of you finding out immidieately(which he eventually does). Just because he didn't tell you something doesn't mean he's trying play you like a marionette like Morrigan. Hell maybe he's not even all that worried that you won't like him but that you will try to make him be king, or that he just doesn't want to talk about it. Your making a big deal out of a lie that isn't really that big of an issue.

When you make Alistair king he becomes quite a good ruler. He can step up to the plate. There's evidence right there.

[robertthebard]

...and yet you continue to rationalize and justify. I am wasting my time. At least I got you to admit the lie now.



BTW, Alistair is a very well written character. I have never claimed otherwise, however, that doesn't mean that I have to like him. He is very effective in combat, and I do tend to have him in my parties. However, even that doesn't imply that I like him as a person. I have worked with people in my professional life that I couldn't stand to socialize with simply because they were good at their jobs. Just because I can see their flaws, or things that make them seem flawed to me, doesn't mean that I can't appreciate them. However, that appreciation doesn't have to spill over into like, or love. Just as there are people who, seemingly, can overlook everyone of his flaws, or use them to accentuate how their character feels. These same people will avoid any confrontational dialogs, to avoid getting the flaws.



I have defined this as bootlicking, and it may be a harsh assessment, but to me, anytime I have to kiss an ass to keep the character from being mad, it's a loss on my personal assessment scale, and if you can't wrap your head around that, it's really not my problem.

[Fiserfully]

Well we all know the Epilogue, that Loghain regrets what he's done and dies honorably if recruited.



But if you're not meta-gaming, there's no reason to believe that Loghain isn't simply surrendering until he gets his next chance to continue being a bastard. This man tortured people, poisoned the Arl, was so convinced that he was right he tried to mow down everything in his path. The smart thing to do was to kill him before he had the chance to do any more damage.



Alistair is convinced that ends shouldn't justify means. That's a hard stance to take as a Grey Warden and so like any complex character he struggles with his morals and isn't entirely consistent with them.

[druidofwarp]

robertthebard wrote...

...and yet you continue to rationalize and justify. I am wasting my time. At least I got you to admit the lie now.

BTW, Alistair is a very well written character. I have never claimed otherwise, however, that doesn't mean that I have to like him. He is very effective in combat, and I do tend to have him in my parties. However, even that doesn't imply that I like him as a person. I have worked with people in my professional life that I couldn't stand to socialize with simply because they were good at their jobs. Just because I can see their flaws, or things that make them seem flawed to me, doesn't mean that I can't appreciate them. However, that appreciation doesn't have to spill over into like, or love. Just as there are people who, seemingly, can overlook everyone of his flaws, or use them to accentuate how their character feels. These same people will avoid any confrontational dialogs, to avoid getting the flaws.

I have defined this as bootlicking, and it may be a harsh assessment, but to me, anytime I have to kiss an ass to keep the character from being mad, it's a loss on my personal assessment scale, and if you can't wrap your head around that, it's really not my problem.

I never actually said you shouldn't argue with Alistair not once, I said Alistair deserves to have things seen from his POV but since neither he nor you tried that you guys are equal. But you are simply justifying your own point to the exclusion of his.

You don't like him because he's "wimpy" and he lied to you about something that you consider important, but not everyone does.

I like him because his flaws make him more human, because he gets whiny sometimes and isn't your typical badass mary sue rpg hero.

If I disagree with Alistair I'll damn well tell him like with saving Zevran. Im not saying don't disagree or argue with Alistair hell tell him off every chance you get if it makes you feel better. I have been constantly arguing that Alisair has his reasons which are perfectly valid to him, but are not to you just because you are the PC you think none of his reasons should matter. Whether you agree or not with is beliefs does not matter, he has them and I can empathize with him. Your character simply sees him differently from mine. 

If you can't get around the idea that Alistair isn't your bootlick either then this conversation is pointless. Edit: Past statement is equally true if you think you having a harder life invalidates Alistairs feelings being shaped by his also hard life.

Modifié par druidofwarp, 18 décembre 2009 - 06:19 .