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[Recidiva]

A Golden Dragon wrote...

The Grey Warden Oath is stated during one of the Loading Screens. I think it ends with: In Death, Sacrifice, or something like that.

In war victory, in peace vigilance, in death sacrifice?  Something that way ish.

[Gold Dragon]

That's it. Thanks.

[bobsmyuncle]

That quest confused me somewhat because I don't remember there being any oath. Alistair said a few words that amounted to "if you choke on this blood and die we'll be really sad about it" but the PC is just given a cup and told to get on with it. Your character can take the job seriously or not depending on personality, but I don't know if the Wardens police errant members. At least, any darkspawn nearby would sense the Warden and start a fight, so it's not like you could completely abandon the Warden life.

Modifié par bobsmyuncle, 19 décembre 2009 - 12:16 .

[Herr Uhl]

Recidiva wrote...

A Golden Dragon wrote...

The Grey Warden Oath is stated during one of the Loading Screens. I think it ends with: In Death, Sacrifice, or something like that.

In war victory, in peace vigilance, in death sacrifice?  Something that way ish.

That is their credo/motto, the oath is uttered before the joining I think. The part that Alastair says.

[Recidiva]

Herr Uhl wrote...

That is their credo/motto, the oath is uttered before the joining I think. The part that Alastair says.

Yup.  Alistair speaks words, but I don't think they're an oath, they're words for the recruits.  It's one of those "For those who are about to die, we salute you, and we'll join you later."

And here, here's some blood on a chain.

eeeee!

[Herr Uhl]

"Join us as we carry the duty that cannot be forsworn"



Sounds like an oath to me.

[Gold Dragon]

Oath: Slay every Darkspawn you come across, no matter what.

[Recidiva]

Herr Uhl wrote...

"Join us as we carry the duty that cannot be forsworn"

Sounds like an oath to me.

But oaths are spoken because the person...takes an oath.

I didn't promise nothin'.

It's like you've been declared man and wife without saying "I do" anywhere.

My "consent" was because I didn't want Duncan to gut me.  Not the same.

[Drunkencelt]

Rainen89 wrote...

Drunkencelt wrote...

That is a really dumb comparison seeing as how a crazy Logain still saved Ferelden and Arl Howe never did a damn thing.

I equate you recruiting Loghain though, to the Jewish Europeans recruiting Hilter towards the end of WW2. He murdered your entire order in cold blood, and most of the army. It WAS HIS PLAN, and he never intended to take the field.

He didn't murder them, he left them to potentially die but you have no guarantee your "order" wouldn't have died to the darkspawn anyway. Please do not equate retreating because of a failed battle plan/betrayal scheme to WW II's mass genocide.

He drew up the plans with the forknowledge and intent to retreat. He lied to the king, the grey wardens, and the army. They were to be a bait while he rushed in to flank from the side once the full force was engaged. He knew full well that everyhone on that field would die. He murdered them out of hatred, period.

[Xandurpein]

Recidiva wrote...

No, I appreciate it.  I just disagree.

I think redemption and forgiveness become meaningless if they're given to everyone.  Particularly those who have proven repeatedly they don't deserve it and wouldn't take it if offered, wouldn't seek it themselves.

I don't think it's impossible to navigate.  It's just hard.  And for those who do manage and make the personal effort and sacrifice required to do so, I'd be insulting them if I gave everything they stood for, everything they fought for, a pass.  In that way I agree with Alistair and the only way I disagree is that being a Grey Warden isn't an honor, and Loghain dying isn't redemption.  It's just a particularly cruel capital punishment option.

He fails, he gets an F.  I don't give out A's because it makes people feel better.  Some people earn their hero status and show the way, and I think that deserves grading on a scale.

I think Loghain knew what he was doing and due to insanity was unable to stop doing it.  There's no way he stands next to the heroes who know what they're doing and despite other people's insanity, persist in doing it.

There's no way he's redeemed.  In my mind he's just dragon chow.

I don't really disagree with you. At least not inso far that I don't think that if he dies to kill the Archdemon his previous life suddenly is excused. At the same time I do not think that it is right to deny him joining the Grey Wardens solely on the ground that he is not "honorable" enough to join. There can in my book only be one possible yardstick to gauge it by. Will the Grey Wardens have a better chance of defeating the Archdemon with Loghain than without him. Stopping the Blight is saving Ferelden from utter annihilation. Had it been any war but the Blight then then maybe you can be more picky, but against the Blight you just use what you have,  and then sentence Loghain to whatever dungeon or execution block you think he deserves after the war.

By the same token, how ever much I can sympathize with Alistair's feelings if Loghain joins the Grey Wardens, it is simply inexcusable for him to abandon the Grey Wardens and help risk the Blight win, no matter how hurt he may have become. Rant, rave, tell the player he'll never be his friend - by all means do that. But if he does not fight the Archdemon, he is in effect punshing every other person in Ferelden for what I have done. Remember that "The Legion of the Dead" consists of convicted criminals to a large extent. Is it ok to use them in the war?

[Xandurpein]

Drunkencelt wrote...

He drew up the plans with the forknowledge and intent to retreat. He lied to the king, the grey wardens, and the army. They were to be a bait while he rushed in to flank from the side once the full force was engaged. He knew full well that everyhone on that field would die. He murdered them out of hatred, period.

I envy your utter certainty of the character's intentions. I tend to try and be a bit more open minded by the possibility that my interpretation of events is just that, but that is just me.

[Recidiva]

Xandurpein wrote...

I don't really disagree with you. At least not inso far that I don't think that if he dies to kill the Archdemon his previous life suddenly is excused. At the same time I do not think that it is right to deny him joining the Grey Wardens solely on the ground that he is not "honorable" enough to join. There can in my book only be one possible yardstick to gauge it by. Will the Grey Wardens have a better chance of defeating the Archdemon with Loghain than without him. Stopping the Blight is saving Ferelden from utter annihilation. Had it been any war but the Blight then then maybe you can be more picky, but against the Blight you just use what you have,  and then sentence Loghain to whatever dungeon or execution block you think he deserves after the war.

By the same token, how ever much I can sympathize with Alistair's feelings if Loghain joins the Grey Wardens, it is simply inexcusable for him to abandon the Grey Wardens and help risk the Blight win, no matter how hurt he may have become. Rant, rave, tell the player he'll never be his friend - by all means do that. But if he does not fight the Archdemon, he is in effect punshing every other person in Ferelden for what I have done. Remember that "The Legion of the Dead" consists of convicted criminals to a large extent. Is it ok to use them in the war?

The game is entirely doomey.  You KNOW someone's gonna die.  Even the first time through it's not hard to realize you could use a few extra Grey Warden hands.  I don't actually think it's an honor to join.  The Grey Wardens would need a massive overhaul in the "recruitment" realm to the extent of - you have to tell people about drinking darkspawn blood and what it does BEFORE you feed it to them and/or gut them.

The Grey Wardens are not a force of good until they do that.  Robbing people of their futures is fine, but do it with their consent and have them sign them away voluntarily.

The only reason I could recruit Loghain was to put him on a two inch leash watched over by Dog to make sure he doesn't poison everyone at camp or stab everyone to death because we all looked like Orlesian conspirators.

He's not sane, he's not trustworthy, it's not about redemption.  He's a criminal that I inflicted the worst punishment the game really came up with - becoming a Grey Warden.  Congratulations.

If Alistair can't appreciate that, fine.  It's not like the game didn't let me know he wasn't terribly bright.

[Recidiva]

Xandurpein wrote...

I envy your utter certainty of the character's intentions. I tend to try and be a bit more open minded by the possibility that my interpretation of events is just that, but that is just me.

It's my conclusion as well.  If you want to be open minded, that's fine.  But at a certain point it's refusing to count up severely damning evidence.  At what point does that become an inability to face evil head on, and therefore become accessory to it...because you do nothing to stop him when you should know better.  I do think the game gives you enough information on several playthroughs to have no doubts that's true.

His lies are of the order of the Sloth demon saying he's trying to make you happy, why are you being so difficult.

"Well, I should be open minded.  Maybe I should give this dream a chance.  It seems nicer than the truth.  And I guess you're right.  My friends don't need me.  I'm going to take a nice nap."

[AntiChri5]

Best punishment for Loghain? Simple. Lock him in a room by himself and no contact with others. At about the tenth day he will start to believe he is an Orlesian agent trying to sell out Ferelden and will be forced to kill himself for Fereldens independance.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Alistair is well within his right to quit whenever he wants.
Last time I checked, there was no oath to be taken when you join the wardens.

Regardless, if I was in Alistairs place and the PC let Loghain into the Grey Warden, I'd gut the PC and display his entrails publicly.
Neither would I ever trust or want to be near him (in the very off case I didn't gut him).

So even the very idea of fighting by Loghians side is reprehensible. He warns you. He said he won't stand by Loghain...


That said, do we actually know what he did once he stormed out? Mayhaps he did stick around and fought a few darkspawn, but away from you and Loghain.

This is an odd stance from somebody that believes that the Dark Ritual is a selfish act, and should never be considered because it isn't "wise".   So, unless you specify otherwise, as with this post, a Grey Warden's duty is to stop the blight at all costs.  However, if you're Alistar, it's cool to forsake that duty and run off to get drunk, as is mentioned in the epilogue if he runs off.  So much inconsistency here, and so little time.  So you would consider a Grey Warden running off in the middle of a Blight a wise thing to do?

I'll give you my answer now; it depends on my character's origin, and the experiences coming up to the Landsmeet.  Understand that this is with the assumption that if it's good for the goose it's good for the gander.  So my answer would be to go to the Landsmeet, make Loghain a Grey Warden, kill Alistair, take Leliana and run to Orlais and let Loghain solve it all by his lonesome.  Any of my companions that wished to question it could follow Alistair to an early grave, or help Loghain, their discretion.  This is an acceptable thing to do based on your comments here, since it's well within Alistair's rights to run off.

Of course, I may well have characters that are honor bound, for reasons of their own, to stop the blight.  I could play this angle out, for example, with a human noble origin, since my father does instruct me to do so.  I could, also, take offence at Duncan's blackmail of my dying father and refuse.  Except the game doesn't give the PC that choice, now does it?  Why?  Because the Blight must be stopped.  This makes Alistair's running off even more heinous.  If he came up in a sequel, he should be killed as a traitor to both Ferelden, and the Grey Wardens, assuming the run off ending, which is possible to get.

[Xandurpein]

Recidiva wrote...

He's not sane, he's not trustworthy, it's not about redemption.  He's a criminal that I inflicted the worst punishment the game really came up with - becoming a Grey Warden.  Congratulations.

He is all that, and he is also perfectly willing to die to save Ferelden. His final words are that he has done so much wrong and now he wants do one thing right. Doubt his wilingness to admit all the wrong he has done, but I cannot deny that I think he is brave in that moment. Few people deserve either A or F grade, If Loghain sacrifices himself it's not enough to raise his F to and A, but maybe an E+ in my book.

[Recidiva]

Xandurpein wrote...

He is all that, and he is also perfectly willing to die to save Ferelden. His final words are that he has done so much wrong and now he wants do one thing right. Doubt his wilingness to admit all the wrong he has done, but I cannot deny that I think he is brave in that moment. Few people deserve either A or F grade, If Loghain sacrifices himself it's not enough to raise his F to and A, but maybe an E+ in my book.

He has no choice.  He's under armed guard (i.e. dog and my lack of trust) and is going to go do it because he has to walk the plank.  Takes no bravery to be escorted up and threatened with death otherwise.  Of course an egomaniac would rather kill an archdemon than die in the gutter.

Good lord, man, who WOULD fail in your book?  Anyone?  What's the lowest of the low?

And he came to my party wearing an IRON SWORD.  What kinda crap is that, I gotta give him a new sword...irresponsible, inconsiderate...BAD DRESSER.

[Xandurpein]

Recidiva wrote...

It's my conclusion as well.  If you want to be open minded, that's fine.  But at a certain point it's refusing to count up severely damning evidence.  At what point does that become an inability to face evil head on, and therefore become accessory to it...because you do nothing to stop him when you should know better.  I do think the game gives you enough information on several playthroughs to have no doubts that's true.

Then you have misunderstood me completly. At no time did I ever argue that just becuase Loghain's actions aren't 100% black, is it an excuse to not stop him. Even if you accept the theory that he is at heart a good man who just got it wrong he must still be stopped, because he is wrong. The eventual reasons for his action don't really count for anything until the ppoint when he is defeated and we should pass a sentence. A policeman don't check the reason why a criminal is robbing a store. He stops the criminal, then it's up to the court to decide if there are circumstances that make him deserve a lesser punishment or not. It's two different things.

[AntiChri5]

Recidiva wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

He is all that, and he is also perfectly willing to die to save Ferelden. His final words are that he has done so much wrong and now he wants do one thing right. Doubt his wilingness to admit all the wrong he has done, but I cannot deny that I think he is brave in that moment. Few people deserve either A or F grade, If Loghain sacrifices himself it's not enough to raise his F to and A, but maybe an E+ in my book.

He has no choice.  He's under armed guard (i.e. dog and my lack of trust) and is going to go do it because he has to walk the plank.  Takes no bravery to be escorted up and threatened with death otherwise.  Of course an egomaniac would rather kill an archdemon than die in the gutter.

Good lord, man, who WOULD fail in your book?  Anyone?  What's the lowest of the low?

And he came to my party wearing an IRON SWORD.  What kinda crap is that, I gotta give him a new sword...irresponsible, inconsiderate...BAD DRESSER.

I KNOW! It isnt enough that he goes coo-coo for coco puffs and ends up almost destroying the country but he doesnt even have the decency to look good while doing it! If its worth doing its worth doing in STYLE! EVERYONE NEEDS SILK PANTALOONS!!!!!

[Recidiva]

Xandurpein wrote...

Then you have misunderstood me completly. At no time did I ever argue that just becuase Loghain's actions aren't 100% black, is it an excuse to not stop him. Even if you accept the theory that he is at heart a good man who just got it wrong he must still be stopped, because he is wrong. The eventual reasons for his action don't really count for anything until the ppoint when he is defeated and we should pass a sentence. A policeman don't check the reason why a criminal is robbing a store. He stops the criminal, then it's up to the court to decide if there are circumstances that make him deserve a lesser punishment or not. It's two different things.

Okay, that being said, what punishment does a man who sold uncounted elves into slavery, condemned uncounted humans to death, (let's not forget a bunch of Mabari), caused the circumstances that allowed Redcliffe's undead vermin problem, supported Howe's sadistic "hobbies" and managed to get a king killed that he had every reason to protect?  Hunted the only people capable of ending the blight...

PLUS he is responsible for inflicting Anora on the world.  C'mon.  What does that add up to?  What do you do to make up for that immense loss?

Sure, force him to kill the archdemon.  But he's still insanely deep in debt.

Modifié par Recidiva, 19 décembre 2009 - 01:07 .

[robertthebard]

I was gonna waffle around about his sentence until you brought up Anora...

[Recidiva]

robertthebard wrote...

I was gonna waffle around about his sentence until you brought up Anora...

"Oh Loghain's crimes.  You are so big, so incredibly huge.  Gosh, we're all impressed down here, I can tell you..."

[Xandurpein]

Recidiva wrote...

Good lord, man, who WOULD fail in your book?  Anyone?  What's the lowest of the low?

I guess in my book very few people are either paragons or 100% villians no, but that is just me. I also think that it's one of the most insidious dangers of any war, the sweet feeling that your enemy is so bad, that it doesn't matter that you kill him.

[Rainen89]

Recidiva wrote...

Okay, that being said, what punishment does a man who sold uncounted elves into slavery, condemned uncounted humans to death, (let's not forget a bunch of Mabari), caused the circumstances that allowed Redcliffe's undead vermin problem, supported Howe's sadistic "hobbies" and managed to get a king killed that he had every reason to protect?  Hunted the only people capable of ending the blight...

PLUS he is responsible for inflicting Anora on the world.  C'mon.  What does that add up to?  What do you do to make up for that immense loss?

Sure, force him to kill the archdemon.  But he's still insanely deep in debt.

I could forgive all of it, all of it if not for that.

[Xandurpein]

Recidiva wrote...
PLUS he is responsible for inflicting Anora on the world.  C'mon.  What does that add up to?  What do you do to make up for that immense loss?

I have made my own personal opinion about Anora known elsewhere, so I'll pass on turning this into another pro vs con Anora thread. Let's drop that ball...