226 réponses à ce sujet

[Shaigunjoe]

- "What about destroy and control?"
With this theory, they are also functions of the Citadel and not the Crucible. Possibly a creator failsafe that forces the Catalyst to make these functions available.

You posit that control and destroy are in place by the creators, why couldn't synthesis be created by the creators as well?

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

DistantUtopia wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...
The Crucible has the capability to implement each choice in its basest form, but requires the Citadel to actually make that implementation feasible on a galactic scale.

It's like putting a nozzle on a hose. Without the nozzle, you can still alter the flow and pressure of the water by yourself, but you won't recieve as refined an effect as you would with the nozzle.

I don't see any in-game dialog to support this.  As TAO mentioned (and as I replay the ending now), the Catalyst says the Crucible is little more than a power source.  So why would you say the Crucible had these choices built in?

Please feel free to correct me if I missed other dialog.

Perhaps TIM ranting on about how the Crucible will allow him to control the Reapers?

[DistantUtopia]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

DistantUtopia wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...
The Crucible has the capability to implement each choice in its basest form, but requires the Citadel to actually make that implementation feasible on a galactic scale.

It's like putting a nozzle on a hose. Without the nozzle, you can still alter the flow and pressure of the water by yourself, but you won't recieve as refined an effect as you would with the nozzle.

I don't see any in-game dialog to support this.  As TAO mentioned (and as I replay the ending now), the Catalyst says the Crucible is little more than a power source.  So why would you say the Crucible had these choices built in?

Please feel free to correct me if I missed other dialog.

Perhaps TIM ranting on about how the Crucible will allow him to control the Reapers?

True.  But given he only says it will allow him to control the Reapers, it could be taken either way; the feature is in the Crucible or the Crucible will activate the feature in the Citadel.  Too vague compared to the Catalyst's own words.  And the Catalyst itself has already encountered the Crucible in previous cycles so I would tend to put more weight on its statement than TIMs.

[Soultaker08]

The catalyst knew about the crucible since some cycles, then hoped its plans to have been destroyed, maybe there had been a cycle that nearly suceeded and already hat the citadel prepared?

You cant know if we are the first cycle that had the luck of a sabotaged citadel and/or other problems the reaper faced

Modifié par Soultaker08, 19 juillet 2012 - 06:11 .

[The Angry One]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

- "What about destroy and control?"
With this theory, they are also functions of the Citadel and not the Crucible. Possibly a creator failsafe that forces the Catalyst to make these functions available.

You posit that control and destroy are in place by the creators, why couldn't synthesis be created by the creators as well?

Because the Catalyst claims "we (the Reapers) tried synthesis before".
Even if it was the creators who built it, the Catalyst actively wants it more than anyone else and likely had at least an influence in it's implementation.

[darkchief10]

The Angry One wrote...

- "Does this suit make me look fat?"
Yes. But it's not the suit, it's you.

HEY!! I'm not fat, i just haven't grown into my body yet!

[3DandBeyond]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

We also know that the 3 platforms for the major functions are part of the Citadel and not of the Crucible. The brat left them there when it found out others built these or it built these itself.

We also know that firing the Crucible required the brat's intervention. So it was not a true weapon, because firing a weapon does not require the consent of its victims.

We also know that the brat had extensive knowledge of the working of these options. He is your perfect tour guide in explaining your options.

We also know that the brat knew that several cycles were attempting to create the Crucible. Did it built the platforms as a protection or did it leave the plans for the Crucible to be found, just like it left other tech and knowledge to be found?

Well this and the OP's post are all reasons as to why they whole thing is just a mess.  The goal is significantly changed from destroying the reapers to solving the kid's problem-implementing his new solutions.  He took ownership of them.  What do they all do to some equally inane extent?  They avoid conflict between synthetics and organics.  Yippee!!  But not forever and not for good.  Conflict is eternal if any diversity exists.  We actually always notice differences even when we are way more similar than we are different.

Synthesis inserts a new challenge - immortality.  Well, overpopulation might eventually be an issue and there is still diversity.  And someone could still create a wholly synthetic lifeform and someone else could create a wholly organic lifeform.
Control - meet your reaper daddy (mommie) - yeah no problems here ever right?  Except maybe for your husk and reaper neighbors, the ones that ate your family.  I'm thinking someone might want to fight these guys.
Destroy - kids says blah blah blah, conflict will begin again. 

What is extremely evident is the kid sees a problem (his purpose) but if he once and for all solves it, he is no longer ever needed again, so he needs the conflict to continue.  He has used the reapers in fact to create it.

He gives Shepard false choices that Shepard might not want to pick and while many may think he wants Shepard to choose Synthesis, I don't even think one is his favorite.  I think they all are.  Control replaces him, but he exists because he is the reapers.  And Shreaper is not Shepard.  The kid also is seemingly a warped program and may see a way to "get out" again.  Synthesis works as well because there's nothing that says the he can't remain even somewhat intact or augmented.  The reapers exist and they are his way back too.

Destroy is more complicated but other than killing the reapers (and maybe the kid), it does leave open the possibility of a need for his help in the future.  The dialogue with this is so confusing and ambiguous that just exactly what remains or is destroyed is debatable.  "There will be losses, but no more than you've already had" (paraphrased)-what?  "All synthetics will be targeted.  Even you are part synthetic."  uh oh.

Harbinger said something to the effect that they would find a new way.  The kid said he needed new solutions.  I just tend to think that the choices are his and none of them are good at all.

We actually have no idea who or what the kid is and he is ambiguous about it all.  But he clearly wants Shepard to make a choice.  He doesn't get mad if Shepard goes for Control or Destroy.  He only gets mad if Shepard refuses to choose.

[Shaigunjoe]

The Angry One wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

- "What about destroy and control?"
With
this theory, they are also functions of the Citadel and not the
Crucible. Possibly a creator failsafe that forces the Catalyst to make
these functions available.

You posit that control and destroy
are in place by the creators, why couldn't synthesis be created by the
creators as well?

Because the Catalyst claims "we (the Reapers) tried synthesis before".
Even
if it was the creators who built it, the Catalyst actively wants it
more than anyone else and likely had at least an influence in it's
implementation.

I feel like thats just as much speculation as anything else, sure they tried it before, but were they  the reason it was implemented in the first place?  You say yourself he likely had an influence in it's implementation, but it isn't a fact.

Modifié par Shaigunjoe, 19 juillet 2012 - 06:19 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

I always thought that was evident by synthesis existing as an option at all, even before EC.

The Angry One wrote...
- "What about destroy and control?"
With this theory, they are also functions of the Citadel and not the Crucible. Possibly a creator failsafe that forces the Catalyst to make these functions available.

I could see him having some influence over these options as well, Reapers are nothing if no manipulative. I can see him modifying destroy to make synthesis look more appealing. And seeing as it was the indoctrinated who supported control in both our and the Prothean cycle it could have been another one of his fail safes.

- "If it's just a power requirement why didn't the Reapers build it?"
The Reapers are technologically stagnant. It's possible they're just incapable of innovating a power source that can push the Citadel into covering the entire galaxy with green space magic. Granted why they can't just do it a bit at a time isn't explained by this theory but that's what working with bad writing gets you.

The cycle is the only way to achieve peace according to star brat, I doubt he even bothered taking in new ideas once he was set on this, probably felt he shouldn't bother since he tried and failed to do it before.

-"LOL did you make another topic to bash synthesis?"
 I don't "bash" anything. I let the facts speak for themselves, and the facts are the Catalyst really really really really wants synthesis.

No arguments here

- "Does this suit make me look fat?"
 Yes. But it's not the suit, it's you.

I'm just big boned!

[Shaigunjoe]

3DandBeyond wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

We also know that the 3 platforms for the major functions are part of the Citadel and not of the Crucible. The brat left them there when it found out others built these or it built these itself.

We also know that firing the Crucible required the brat's intervention. So it was not a true weapon, because firing a weapon does not require the consent of its victims.

We also know that the brat had extensive knowledge of the working of these options. He is your perfect tour guide in explaining your options.

We also know that the brat knew that several cycles were attempting to create the Crucible. Did it built the platforms as a protection or did it leave the plans for the Crucible to be found, just like it left other tech and knowledge to be found?

Well this and the OP's post are all reasons as to why they whole thing is just a mess.  The goal is significantly changed from destroying the reapers to solving the kid's problem-implementing his new solutions.  He took ownership of them.  What do they all do to some equally inane extent?  They avoid conflict between synthetics and organics.  Yippee!!  But not forever and not for good.  Conflict is eternal if any diversity exists.  We actually always notice differences even when we are way more similar than we are different.

Synthesis inserts a new challenge - immortality.  Well, overpopulation might eventually be an issue and there is still diversity.  And someone could still create a wholly synthetic lifeform and someone else could create a wholly organic lifeform.
Control - meet your reaper daddy (mommie) - yeah no problems here ever right?  Except maybe for your husk and reaper neighbors, the ones that ate your family.  I'm thinking someone might want to fight these guys.
Destroy - kids says blah blah blah, conflict will begin again. 

What is extremely evident is the kid sees a problem (his purpose) but if he once and for all solves it, he is no longer ever needed again, so he needs the conflict to continue.  He has used the reapers in fact to create it.

He gives Shepard false choices that Shepard might not want to pick and while many may think he wants Shepard to choose Synthesis, I don't even think one is his favorite.  I think they all are.  Control replaces him, but he exists because he is the reapers.  And Shreaper is not Shepard.  The kid also is seemingly a warped program and may see a way to "get out" again.  Synthesis works as well because there's nothing that says the he can't remain even somewhat intact or augmented.  The reapers exist and they are his way back too.

Destroy is more complicated but other than killing the reapers (and maybe the kid), it does leave open the possibility of a need for his help in the future.  The dialogue with this is so confusing and ambiguous that just exactly what remains or is destroyed is debatable.  "There will be losses, but no more than you've already had" (paraphrased)-what?  "All synthetics will be targeted.  Even you are part synthetic."  uh oh.

Harbinger said something to the effect that they would find a new way.  The kid said he needed new solutions.  I just tend to think that the choices are his and none of them are good at all.

We actually have no idea who or what the kid is and he is ambiguous about it all.  But he clearly wants Shepard to make a choice.  He doesn't get mad if Shepard goes for Control or Destroy.  He only gets mad if Shepard refuses to choose.

I think it just wants to retire, it gets pissy when Shep chooses refuse because, hell, it has do it all over again.

[Tkrun42]

zambot wrote...

What I don't understand is that you openly acknowledge the fact that you're working with "bad writing" and "space magic" yet you are still attempting to impose logic on it. Why? To what end? It's just as valid to say that Shepard isn't really human, and was one of the Creators sent forward in time on a magical time travelling unicorn which explains why his essence activates the space magic that he created billions of years ago to save the galaxy. What are you out to prove?

I vote new canon

[AresKeith]

3DandBeyond wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

We also know that the 3 platforms for the major functions are part of the Citadel and not of the Crucible. The brat left them there when it found out others built these or it built these itself.

We also know that firing the Crucible required the brat's intervention. So it was not a true weapon, because firing a weapon does not require the consent of its victims.

We also know that the brat had extensive knowledge of the working of these options. He is your perfect tour guide in explaining your options.

We also know that the brat knew that several cycles were attempting to create the Crucible. Did it built the platforms as a protection or did it leave the plans for the Crucible to be found, just like it left other tech and knowledge to be found?

Well this and the OP's post are all reasons as to why they whole thing is just a mess.  The goal is significantly changed from destroying the reapers to solving the kid's problem-implementing his new solutions.  He took ownership of them.  What do they all do to some equally inane extent?  They avoid conflict between synthetics and organics.  Yippee!!  But not forever and not for good.  Conflict is eternal if any diversity exists.  We actually always notice differences even when we are way more similar than we are different.

Synthesis inserts a new challenge - immortality.  Well, overpopulation might eventually be an issue and there is still diversity.  And someone could still create a wholly synthetic lifeform and someone else could create a wholly organic lifeform.
Control - meet your reaper daddy (mommie) - yeah no problems here ever right?  Except maybe for your husk and reaper neighbors, the ones that ate your family.  I'm thinking someone might want to fight these guys.
Destroy - kids says blah blah blah, conflict will begin again. 

What is extremely evident is the kid sees a problem (his purpose) but if he once and for all solves it, he is no longer ever needed again, so he needs the conflict to continue.  He has used the reapers in fact to create it.

He gives Shepard false choices that Shepard might not want to pick and while many may think he wants Shepard to choose Synthesis, I don't even think one is his favorite.  I think they all are.  Control replaces him, but he exists because he is the reapers.  And Shreaper is not Shepard.  The kid also is seemingly a warped program and may see a way to "get out" again.  Synthesis works as well because there's nothing that says the he can't remain even somewhat intact or augmented.  The reapers exist and they are his way back too.

Destroy is more complicated but other than killing the reapers (and maybe the kid), it does leave open the possibility of a need for his help in the future.  The dialogue with this is so confusing and ambiguous that just exactly what remains or is destroyed is debatable.  "There will be losses, but no more than you've already had" (paraphrased)-what?  "All synthetics will be targeted.  Even you are part synthetic."  uh oh.

Harbinger said something to the effect that they would find a new way.  The kid said he needed new solutions.  I just tend to think that the choices are his and none of them are good at all.

We actually have no idea who or what the kid is and he is ambiguous about it all.  But he clearly wants Shepard to make a choice.  He doesn't get mad if Shepard goes for Control or Destroy.  He only gets mad if Shepard refuses to choose.

gets mad and uses a new voice when you shoot at it, which makes me trust it even less

[SpamBot2000]

Cognitive dissonance hurts.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Um. Okay. I'm pretty sure that everyone had figured this out when the Catalyst was talking about wanting you to choose Synthesis in the conversation with him... but sure, I guess it's worthy of making yet another topic on so you can be snide towards anyone who likes Synthesis.

Good for you? I guess?

[CrutchCricket]

I like to think the Crucible performed inception on the holokid and planted the idea that the cycles are a load of crap.

Of course the holokid being the turd king itself took this to the troll-logic conclusion of green space magic.

So I just took its toys away and deleted with extreme prejudice.

[AresKeith]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Um. Okay. I'm pretty sure that everyone had figured this out when the Catalyst was talking about wanting you to choose Synthesis in the conversation with him... but sure, I guess it's worthy of making yet another topic on so you can be snide towards anyone who likes Synthesis.

Good for you? I guess?

its not about that, its about the Synthesis ending being out of place and completely going against everything you did in Mass Effect, if you like it more power to you

[1483749283]

Hunter_Wolf wrote...


Why did Shepard have to die to trigger it?
That to me still makes no sense, besides the fact that you as Shepard are making a conscious decision to change all species, even those you have no met in the franchise, without their consent. It was barbaric, "I'm human and I know what's best even though as a Turian, you've been here longer of course, our physiology is different."

I thought it was pretty clear that Shepard was needed as a necessary ingredient for the green beam itself.

BTW my armor color throughout ME2 and ME3 was green, the same exact shade as synthesis too. LOL

[Apollo-XL5]

Since watching and loving the EC, this is how see the choices.

Control : Take the catalyst's place and become a true AI hybrid (like the one david became but failed due to him not being ready for it) by having your body destroyed and your mind digitized and spread throughout the reaper forces to control as you see fit.

Synthesis : This is what the catalyst sees as the only real way to stop the cycle of violence between creator asnd created. And so is the reapers main choice. (you dont want to agree with them do you. The kind of peace and happiness that this creates should be earned by hard work and trust from all parties involved. Like it was starting to when Shepard brought all the races together against the reapers. It cant just be given out, thats to easy)

Destroy : This is the true refusal, where you basically tell the catalyst he is wrong about the organic/synthetic arguement and so destroy him and the reapers (yes the geth and Edi are gone too, but they are casualties of war. And I believe if given the choice, they would agree... I certainly know EDI would after she spoke about risking destruction if joker's life was on the line.)

Refusal : This is the cowards choice. In taking no action you condemn the whole cycle to oblivion because you didnt have the balls to make a choice (One of ME main themes is choice by the way) and so it is then shown that the next cycle was man enough to use the crucible to break the reapers hold on the galaxy.

[1483749283]

 OP, we don't know that the Catalyst designed Synthesis. It could have been the creators that designed it.

Here's what I do know for sure

We'll never find out

[1483749283]

Apollo-XL5 wrote...


Synthesis : This is what the catalyst sees as the only real way to stop the cycle of violence between creator asnd created. And so is the reapers main choice. (you dont want to agree with them do you. The kind of peace and happiness that this creates should be earned by hard work and trust from all parties involved. Like it was starting to when Shepard brought all the races together against the reapers. It cant just be given out, thats to easy)

Synthesis will stop the CURRENT cycle (reapers) but will not prevent further conflict because organics will still presumably evolve (from scratch) in other worlds and pure unshackled synthetic AIs will also be created, either by the synthganics or by the new organics.

I think the most implausible thing about the green ending's implications is that somehow Synthesis ensures that all life will from now on be synthesized. 

[Ieldra]

*sigh*

Another of *these* threads. A very transparent attempt to invalidate one option by associating it with an antagonist. That's an association fallacy. Very common around here. I say the merits and drawbacks of each of the ending options stand on their own. Their association with anyone in particular is completely irrelevant.

Also, if I may point out:

"You altered the variables".
"The Crucible changed me, created new....possibilities".

That sounds as if the Crucible made the new solutions possible, as well as Shepard's presence. If Shepard's sacrifice has any meaning, something of her will influence how exactly Synthesis works. The Catalyst promotes Synthesis as the best solution, but who designed it is anyone's guess. We simply do not know.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 juillet 2012 - 06:39 .

[3DandBeyond]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Um. Okay. I'm pretty sure that everyone had figured this out when the Catalyst was talking about wanting you to choose Synthesis in the conversation with him... but sure, I guess it's worthy of making yet another topic on so you can be snide towards anyone who likes Synthesis.

Good for you? I guess?

Reading is fundamental.  It's not just about Synthesis only at all, though since some feel that's the happy ending and the canon ending, all while thinking it's exactly what the kid wants, there is either still a lot to discuss or a lot of truly conflicted people out there.

One big complaint of the original endings was the crucible was on a magical mystery tour able to create multiple choices from a single beam.  And the tech to create it had to be uber complicated yet easy to create, which follows all the known fictional elements of real logic.

Sooooooo, enter Mr. EC.  Extremely Convoluted, er I mean Extended Cut and the Crucible has been explained.  All is well, release the bunnies.  Woot woot.

Oh wait we still have issues.  We always wondered why and how the little choice podiums (er, tube, arc and spark, and DNA changer) got on the Citadel, but the problem was more the Crucible that made the change.  Now the crucible is just powering the change.  Ok so the citadel, the kid's home, a part of the kid, where the magical podiums are is now even more magical.  Cooooooool!!!   Yeah, because ME has always devolved into total fantasy and magic and logic never mattered at all.  But, the big or small glowing magician in the corner knows all and he can explain, even though he had nothing to do with any of it.

Exactly how far removed from reality does one have to be to make sense of this.

[zambot]

Tkrun42 wrote...

zambot wrote...

What I don't understand is that you openly acknowledge the fact that you're working with "bad writing" and "space magic" yet you are still attempting to impose logic on it. Why? To what end? It's just as valid to say that Shepard isn't really human, and was one of the Creators sent forward in time on a magical time travelling unicorn which explains why his essence activates the space magic that he created billions of years ago to save the galaxy. What are you out to prove?

I vote new canon

Then why all these elaborate speculations designed to prove that the writers have plot holes with their endings?  Isn't this obvious?  We already have a billion threads that say "Wow, these endings make no sense"  Is it necessary to try to provide convoluted logical proof that the endings make no sense?

[Deltateam Elcor]

The funny thing is, it's kinda like a big joke.

Look at the crucible, it's big, long and unwieldy.

Look at the Citadel, it's basically a hole (in space).

So really, Bioware did the biggest phallic joke ever. Really does suit the story doesnt it.

Modifié par Deltateam Elcor, 19 juillet 2012 - 06:44 .

[Wayning_Star]

I'd guess that the whole choice scene was within the crucible designed by the catalysts' makers. I figure that 'new' programming is what triggers the choices. Since the catalyst tried synthesis before, it was more like attributing tech to organics, a hybrid as in cyborg type of integration within the organic races. The 'builders' went a step further, realizing that sythesis had to be "complete" (we have no way of knowing what that is tho...) so hence the deciding MEU organics had to 'agree' to the changes forthcomming.The Shepard,being their representitive, was apparently chosen, even resuscitated, for this distinction. The catalyst is clueless to this,(the dummy even tried to 'take out' Shep..) as the reprogramming omits this, during the jamming of it's self preservation programming. It's been reprogrammed to accept the organic melding. It has no clue that the crucible actually has the capacity to make organics have power over it. Over the times the crucible was built and tested, this capacity was not utilized, as the cut scenes show Anderson and the IM trying the destroy and the control choices..Shepard was never there before, using the synthesis choice and now the walk away choice as a side affect of the virus, leaving the choices, too hard to decide, for the next cycle. The thing to remember is that this is all "intellectual" representation of events, as everyone there is merely a "progam" being 'exicuted', not flesh'n bone or actual physical objects. The only thing 'real/actuality' is the citadel and the crucible. Shepard and all players are still on the ground, except the IM, who's been reaperized. He was a puppet for the catalyst/reapers/collectors from day one, poor indoctrinated,power hungry, sap..for the catalyst. A very potent victim. In any event, any energy emitted from the citadelcrucible, was from another dimension, no one on/in the MEU could even realize it, the scenes from everyone perspective were mere extradimensional representations of that/those perspectives. It was instantanious and all incompassing. Like super nova, only different. (much bigger, more data, from all directions, but incomprehensible from the MEUs' limited perspective.)

the only thing that organics shared with the synthetics is that inate ablility to 'imagine' stuff,even feelings. On the other spectrim, the synthetics shared the ability to work together as a construct, their inability of being 'alone' in the current reality as a 'platform' of inner connectability.

simple really..