226 réponses à ce sujet

[MetioricTest]

MegaSovereign wrote...

You sure do love Synthesis, The Angry One.

I don't like the implication that Synthesis is bad because husks look weird.

[Clayless]

Xellith wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Have you ever noticed that you always make up headcannon that has contradictions and then you complain about the bad writing of your headcannon instead of trying to think up a different answer that doesn't have contradictions?

Edit:

For example it's possible that another previous cycle, or cycles, realised that Synthesis would end the conflict and included it into the design of the Crucible. The Catalyst could've also have tried that solution but failed, but that wouldn't mean others wouldn't have been able to try and create that solution.

1.  You are on the citadel where the switches are.
2.  The catalyst even says that the crucible is little more than a power source.

Meaning that the options were on the citadel and all the crucible does is supply the power to activate the options.

Still doesnt explain why the Reapers would even have all 3 options on the citadel to be honest.  Though "destruction" only occuring by attacking a tube kinda makes sense.  You stop the power being used correctly and cause an overload or something like that.

Least it makes sense to me.

If you look you'll see the Synthesis is actually created by both the Citadel and the Crucible. Destroy and Control are on the Citadel (rather ironic as those that don't trust the Catalyst are usually really willing to choose something that's already on the Citadel) but Synthesis is created by the energy of the Crucible docking with the Citadel.

Honestly though I'm failing to see the point in this thread. Is it "I don't like Synthesis?", well ok,  don't choose it.

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 20 juillet 2012 - 03:07 .

[saracen16]

This again?

The Angry One wrote...

What we know:

- The Crucible is said to be little more than a power source.
- The Crucible "changed the variables".
- The Catalyst has tried synthesis before.

Now for the purposes of this topic let's assume that every word that comes out of the Catalyst's lying mouth isn't self-contradictory garbage and take these things to be true.

There's nothing "self-contradictory" about what the Catalyst says. That he tried synthesis doesn't mean that he tried it using the Crucible. He had other methods. The end result is the same for him, but the journey was different. Here, it is organics choosing their future, not the Reapers.

I once made a topic asking why organics would include synthesis into the Crucible's designs and the best answer anyone gave was "indoctrinated agents".
That's all well and good but it still strikes me as odd that these would make it into the preserved designs and yet still nobody can ever figure out what it does.
Of course if we accept that the Crucible is just a giant battery the answer becomes obvious; synthesis is a function of the Citadel and not the Crucible.

*Biggest facepalm ever* That's what's implied in the game for ALL ending choices, really, not just synthesis. The Catalyst (i.e. the Citadel) repurposes the dark energy transmissions in the power source that is the Crucible. By choosing which "agent" to add to the Crucible (i.e. a bullet, your soul, or your body), you use the Catalyst (i.e. the Citadel) to repurpose the Crucible to carry out the decision that you made.

If this is so then it explains why the Catalyst knows everything about synthesis and how it's tried it before. It would've used the exact same method as with the Crucible because it's the Citadel that does it. It just didn't have the power required.

Again, *facepalm*. It tried "a similar solution". It did not try synthesis using the Crucible, which is a product of previous civilizations. We don't even know HOW it tried its own version of "synthesis", but it was clear that this was BEFORE it came up with the Reapers. The Citadel, being a focal point of the Reapers, therefore must have come after, but again, we don't know.

Q&A time!

- "What about destroy and control?"
With this theory, they are also functions of the Citadel and not the Crucible. Possibly a creator failsafe that forces the Catalyst to make these functions available.

But you don't know that. The Catalyst noted the Crucible's designs several cycles ago, meaning that many cycles have passed until the Crucible itself was invented in blueprint.

- "If it's just a power requirement why didn't the Reapers build it?"
The Reapers are technologically stagnant. It's possible they're just incapable of innovating a power source that can push the Citadel into covering the entire galaxy with green space magic. Granted why they can't just do it a bit at a time isn't explained by this theory but that's what working with bad writing gets you.

It's not a function of how advanced they are. The Reapers didn't build it because - and it's too obvious - they didn't want the Crucible employed in the first place.

- "LOL did you make another topic to bash synthesis?"
I don't "bash" anything. I let the facts speak for themselves, and the facts are the Catalyst really really really really wants synthesis.

Even if the Catalyst wants synthesis, that doesn't mean it's wrong. Bush wants democracy, and a lot of people hate his guts. Therefore, using your logic, we should hate democracy. I hate both, but I have my own reasons for hating democracy, and it's not just Bush.

But know this: your arrogance will be your downfall, TAO. Mark my words.

[Clayless]

Hmm, that George Bush Democracy analogy is a good one, it points out the flaw in that logic.

[Cheviot]

3DandBeyond wrote...

No they aren't.  The first Rachni Queen Shepard meets is imprisioned and her children have been taken from her and the reason they are out of control is because they have been removed from her.  That is one Queen.  Shepard could kill her, but there is information that the Rachni only ever wanted to be left alone and were forced into the open by a Salarian who opened a relay to them.

The next contact with them involves Rachni that are being controlled and imprisoned and it continually involves Rachni that are being abused by others including the reapers.  The last queen clearly and obviously hates the reapers for hurting her children and she could be killed or subdued more easily than any reaper.

The Geth have not been turning people into goo and were not even attacking people except when under reaper supervision.  They fought the quarians for self-preservation and then stopped.  The heretics aren't trusted ever, but Legion is.  Legion saved their lives on the derelict reaper.  Legion also helps on the collector base.  Shepard does not help the geth before trusting Legion and he is the reason and the fact that all the non-heretic geth wanted was to be alive.  They didn't chase after the quarians.

On the other hand, the catalyst says he controls the reapers.  That is a whole new level of nasty.  Rachni and geth can be killed.  Krogan, I've fought plenty and killed them.  Reapers, not so easy.  Trusting their baby daddy, that could doom the whole galaxy.

Before meeting the Rachni Queen, Shepard has to fight against scores of Rachni.  The Queen tells you that it's not her fault those Rachni attacked you, that she's a prisoner, but, equally, she's just seen you defeat Beneizia and a room full of Asari Commandoes, so she could equally be lying to save herself.  The message from the Rachni "envoy" could be further lies, to buy time while she raises an army.  Ask anyone else in the ME universe and it'll be difficult to find someone who would trust the Rachni.  My point is that there is no clear indication that the choice is the right thing to do.

The Geth that the galaxy faced - the Heretics - didn't turn people to goo, but they certainly killed a lot of people.  They keep on trying to kill Shepard, for example.  The justification for the Geth's actions - their self-preservation, the split between most Geth and the Heretics - is not revealed until after Shepard switches Legion on.  The fact that this one Geth helped Shepard on the derelict Reaper is perhaps a sign that it is somehow different, but it's not a sign that the entire Geth is misunderstood. 

3DandBeyond wrote...

I've asked this many times and never
gotten a real response to it: prove that anything the kid says is true
without thinking like the player.  Be Shepard and do not rely on what
the kid says-prove what he says is true.

Well, considering that you find it difficult to accept that there are other times when Shepard made a choice without being sure whether to trust those involved, and that you say I can't rely on the fact that every scene
after Shepard makes his choice proves that the Catalyst was trustworthy, then all I've got to answer your question is some questions of my own: why would the Catalyst lie?  What possible motive could he have for talking with Shepard unless he was going to offer him the choices? I mean, the Catalyst could just wait and Shepard would eventually die from bloodloss. 

Modifié par Cheviot, 20 juillet 2012 - 03:36 .

[PsyrenY]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Hmm, that George Bush Democracy analogy is a good one, it points out the flaw in that logic.

It's simple Association Fallacy which she commits over and over and over again. All the analogies in the world won't convince her.

"I like logic," I spewed my coffee at that one.

[Eterna]

I could take this more seriously if it wasn't just Headcannon and wild assumptions from a biased mind.

[DistantUtopia]

saracen16 wrote...

*Biggest facepalm ever* That's what's implied in the game for ALL ending choices, really, not just synthesis. The Catalyst (i.e. the Citadel) repurposes the dark energy transmissions in the power source that is the Crucible. By choosing which "agent" to add to the Crucible (i.e. a bullet, your soul, or your body), you use the Catalyst (i.e. the Citadel) to repurpose the Crucible to carry out the decision that you made.

Isn't this also just another interpretation of what we are shown?  Nothing we see or hear in-game seems to validate this particular line of thought.

[Cheviot]

DistantUtopia wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

*Biggest facepalm ever* That's what's implied in the game for ALL ending choices, really, not just synthesis. The Catalyst (i.e. the Citadel) repurposes the dark energy transmissions in the power source that is the Crucible. By choosing which "agent" to add to the Crucible (i.e. a bullet, your soul, or your body), you use the Catalyst (i.e. the Citadel) to repurpose the Crucible to carry out the decision that you made.

Isn't this also just another interpretation of what we are shown?  Nothing we see or hear in-game seems to validate this particular line of thought.

It's what Vendetta tells Shepard on Cronos Station; it says something to the effect that the Catalyst controls dark energy and co-ordinates its transmission across the whole Relay network.  Maybe that's the type of energy the Crucible produces?

[Xandurpein]

The statement that "The Crucible is just a battery" makes little sense as the only reason given for why we need to dock the Crucible with the Citadel at all, as far as I know it, was because we need the Citadel to power it. The Citadel is the battery. It would have made far more sense to say that the Crucible is just a gun barrel, in my opinion.

[Ansible]

The Angry One wrote...




I once made a topic asking why organics would include synthesis into the Crucible's designs and the best answer anyone gave was "indoctrinated agents".
That's all well and good but it still strikes me as odd that these would make it into the preserved designs and yet still nobody can ever figure out what it does.
Of course if we accept that the Crucible is just a giant battery the answer becomes obvious; synthesis is a function of the Citadel and not the Crucible.

All that the synthesis beam is is a power source. That's it.

What makes it Synthesis is Shepards essence (part synthetic, part organic)

If I were a half human half lizard and jumped into it, I'm guessing it would make everyone lizard men.

[PsyrenY]

Ansible wrote...

All that the synthesis beam is is a power source. That's it.

What makes it Synthesis is Shepards essence (part synthetic, part organic)

If I were a half human half lizard and jumped into it, I'm guessing it would make everyone lizard men.

Someone's been watching Amazing Spiderman

[Thaa_solon]

I propose the "bad writing Theory" or "Lack of communication between BW teams in creating the end Theory"

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I think we should stop trying to make sense out of the ending. It doesn't make any. The entire ending needs a complete rewrite without the Starbrat, and unfortunately it won't get one.

[3DandBeyond]

Cheviot wrote...


Before meeting the Rachni Queen, Shepard has to fight against scores of Rachni.  The Queen tells you that it's not her fault those Rachni attacked you, that she's a prisoner, but, equally, she's just seen you defeat Beneizia and a room full of Asari Commandoes, so she could equally be lying to save herself.  The message from the Rachni "envoy" could be further lies, to buy time while she raises an army.  Ask anyone else in the ME universe and it'll be difficult to find someone who would trust the Rachni.  My point is that there is no clear indication that the choice is the right thing to do.

The Geth that the galaxy faced - the Heretics - didn't turn people to goo, but they certainly killed a lot of people.  They keep on trying to kill Shepard, for example.  The justification for the Geth's actions - their self-preservation, the split between most Geth and the Heretics - is not revealed until after Shepard switches Legion on.  The fact that this one Geth helped Shepard on the derelict Reaper is perhaps a sign that it is somehow different, but it's not a sign that the entire Geth is misunderstood. 


Well, considering that you find it difficult to accept that there are other times when Shepard made a choice without being sure whether to trust those involved, and that you say I can't rely on the fact that every scene
after Shepard makes his choice proves that the Catalyst was trustworthy, then all I've got to answer your question is some questions of my own: why would the Catalyst lie?  What possible motive could he have for talking with Shepard unless he was going to offer him the choices? I mean, the Catalyst could just wait and Shepard would eventually die from bloodloss. 

Well as far as the rachni you do have other information before getting to the queen about what has been done to the rachni previously.  The queen tells you to kill her children because they can't be saved.  And you have teammates that offer their impressions.  You can even killl her if you want.  And the rachni while a possible threat do not rise to the same threat level as reapers.  There is at least a tenuous reason to trust her because I have more than her word that she has been misused.  She is obviously not there of her own free will.  And this is completely in keeping with what Shepard says in dealing with Dr. Heart with Garrus when Shepard won't let Garrus kill Dr. Heart and he fights and dies anyway.  Shepard says you can't control what other people do, only your own reaction to it.  Shepard also says a lot of other things about not just destroying or killing people because of what might happen.  But, you still could kill the queen. 

I never believed the heretic geth and the story never asks you or forces you to do that.  I didn't see them as benevolent and I made that distinction, but even they are being used by the reapers.  They also do not pose the same kind of threat as the reapers do.  You could rewrite or destroy them, too. 

As far as the other geth.  Legion helps Shepard and could have killed Shepard.  Legion also works with Tali.  This gives me some basis upon which to trust him and he is not separated from the other geth.  He continually is consulting the collective. 

The catalyst has every reason to lie.  He has a warped purpose.  HIs goal is not Shepard's goal.  Shepard's goal is to destroy the reapers.  The kid's goal is to avoid conflict between synthetics and organics, by killing organics using his solution, the reapers.  He told TIM he could control the reapers (indoctrination is making someone believe a lie that the reapers want them to believe and the kid is the reapers as he says) and TIM could not control the reapers, so that was a lie.  The kid is now telling Shepard the s/he can control the reapers.  "Oh wait, but didn't you tell TIM he could?"  The star kid would like any being be concerned with self-preservation.   He also says the new solutions are his, but he can't make them happen.  He turned his own creators into a reaper.  Well, I'd be curious as to how and why he did that, but it's never asked, never explained.

Up to this point his solution has been killing organics.  He also turned his creators into a reapers for that same purpose.  He is stuck on stupid.  He wants Shepard to make his new solution happen and he is the only one that has a clue as to what the whole contraption does.   His old solution won't work, so letting Shepard die won't help him.  He needs Shepard to interact with the console.  In getting Shepard to make a choice, he can get rid of Shepard and solve his problem.  But it could just as easily be just about breaking Shepard's will which has been the driving force causing him problems.  If Shepard makes a choice, Shepard is agreeing with the kid that synthetics are the problem.  He could be lying, because he has lied.  And he'd have reasons to lie because of self-preservation, he needs Shepard to stop fighting the reapers.

[Cheviot]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I think we should stop trying to make sense out of the ending. It doesn't make any. The entire ending needs a complete rewrite without the Starbrat, and unfortunately it won't get one.

It does make sense.  Shepard spends the game searching for the Catalyst, which will allow him to defeat the Reapers.  He finds the Catalyst, and it allows him to defeat the Reapers (unless he refuses). 

[3DandBeyond]

Xandurpein wrote...

The statement that "The Crucible is just a battery" makes little sense as the only reason given for why we need to dock the Crucible with the Citadel at all, as far as I know it, was because we need the Citadel to power it. The Citadel is the battery. It would have made far more sense to say that the Crucible is just a gun barrel, in my opinion.

No, when the original endings came out everyone was saying the crucible made no sense.  It had to be complicated to make even with plans.  The EC was released and it is now a big power source only.  Hackett says it was easy to build.  That means something has to make the choices do what they do and the only thing left is the citadel where for some reason the star kid has nicely built some podiums for Shepard to use-a tube to shoot, and arcing currents to connect.  Oh and the rest of the beam to jump into.

[3DandBeyond]

Cheviot wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I think we should stop trying to make sense out of the ending. It doesn't make any. The entire ending needs a complete rewrite without the Starbrat, and unfortunately it won't get one.

It does make sense.  Shepard spends the game searching for the Catalyst, which will allow him to defeat the Reapers.  He finds the Catalyst, and it allows him to defeat the Reapers (unless he refuses). 

You did notice that in control and synthesis the reapers are still there right?  That's not a win by any stretch of the imagination.  They aren't defeated.  In one they are the totalitarian foot soldiers of Shepard's intelligence-not Shepard.  Shreaper has no heart, no emotion, no feeling.  That's not Shepard.  Those reapers have people goo in them, so someone somewhere will want them dead.  I think Joker would say Shepard screwed up and want revenge for his sister.  And this could be true in either control or synthesis.  I also don't think he'd be alone in that.

And since when was the goal ever to force people to be augmented with reaper tech or synthetics?  That's done without consent.  Nor was controlling the reapers the goal.  Destroying them was, but that is genocide.  It's the writers forcing some gratuitous penalty upon us for choosing to do what the goal was in 3 games.  It's callous and sadistic especially since in synthesis the thing acts like some atomic level scalpel, but in destroy it's like a whack a mole hammer.

And all of this presupposes the choices are valid and the catalyst is credible.  Neither can be proven.  And refuse is an F U to us so as written it is a non-choice.  We are forced into a no choice conundrum.

[AresKeith]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Cheviot wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I think we should stop trying to make sense out of the ending. It doesn't make any. The entire ending needs a complete rewrite without the Starbrat, and unfortunately it won't get one.

It does make sense.  Shepard spends the game searching for the Catalyst, which will allow him to defeat the Reapers.  He finds the Catalyst, and it allows him to defeat the Reapers (unless he refuses). 

You did notice that in control and synthesis the reapers are still there right?  That's not a win by any stretch of the imagination.  They aren't defeated.  In one they are the totalitarian foot soldiers of Shepard's intelligence-not Shepard.  Shreaper has no heart, no emotion, no feeling.  That's not Shepard.  Those reapers have people goo in them, so someone somewhere will want them dead.  I think Joker would say Shepard screwed up and want revenge for his sister.  And this could be true in either control or synthesis.  I also don't think he'd be alone in that.

And since when was the goal ever to force people to be augmented with reaper tech or synthetics?  That's done without consent.  Nor was controlling the reapers the goal.  Destroying them was, but that is genocide.  It's the writers forcing some gratuitous penalty upon us for choosing to do what the goal was in 3 games.  It's callous and sadistic especially since in synthesis the thing acts like some atomic level scalpel, but in destroy it's like a whack a mole hammer.

And all of this presupposes the choices are valid and the catalyst is credible.  Neither can be proven.  And refuse is an F U to us so as written it is a non-choice.  We are forced into a no choice conundrum.

And I'm pretty sure when looking for the Catalyst no one knew it was gonna be a God-Child saying he controls thr Reapers which makes it the big bad guy, which is also a DEM that failed hard in Fallout 2

[Cheviot]

3DandBeyond wrote...
Well as far as the rachni you do have other information before getting to the queen about what has been done to the rachni previously.  The queen tells you to kill her children because they can't be saved.  And you have teammates that offer their impressions.  You can even killl her if you want.

Yes you can kill the Queen, that's the whole point of the choice.  You
can also (post-EC) shoot the Catalyst if you think he's lying, or if you
think your Shepard wouldn't believe him. 

And the rachni while a possible threat do not rise to the same threat level as reapers.

If you compare the total amount of deaths, then yes, the Reapers have done much know.  However, threatening to destroy most life in the galaxy (as the Rachni did) is still very, very bad.  Also, Shepard didn't know the full extent of the Reaper's evil at that point in the game - I think that the vision had only hinted the Protheans were wiped out,, and there was very little about previous Cycles.  So, when Shepard made the choice,  Rachni Wars were still on a similar level with the Reapers when it came to threat.

I never believed the heretic geth and the story never asks you or forces you to do that.

Unless you play the Geth Consensus mission after which you are surrounded by Primes who don't instantly try to rip you to shreds.  Even if you didn't believe Legion, that mission shows that there are factions of Geth with different attitudes.  Also, there's the whole peace between the Geth and Quarians thing, if you choose to go for it - and that was a leap into the unknown too, wasn't it?

As far as the other geth.  Legion helps Shepard and could have killed Shepard.  Legion also works with Tali.  This gives me some basis upon which to trust him and he is not separated from the other geth.  He continually is consulting the collective.

Yet you don't believe the Heretic Geth plot? 

The star kid would like any being be concerned with self-preservation.

Like the Rachni Queen? 

Up to this point his solution has been killing organics.  He also turned his creators into a reapers for that same purpose.  He is stuck on stupid.  He wants Shepard to make his new solution happen and he is the only one that has a clue as to what the whole contraption does.   His old solution won't work, so letting Shepard die won't help him.  He needs Shepard to interact with the console.  In getting Shepard to make a choice, he can get rid of Shepard and solve his problem.  But it could just as easily be just about breaking Shepard's will which has been the driving force causing him problems.  If Shepard makes a choice, Shepard is agreeing with the kid that synthetics are the problem.  He could be lying, because he has lied.  And he'd have reasons to lie because of self-preservation, he needs Shepard to stop fighting the reapers.

What's your basis for saying that the need for a new solution is true but the rest of what the Catalyst says is false?  Also, what would the Catalyst care if  one Organic's will is broken, or they agree that Synthetics are the problem?

[Cheviot]

3DandBeyond wrote...
You did notice that in control and synthesis the reapers are still there right?  That's not a win by any stretch of the imagination.  They aren't defeated.  In one they are the totalitarian foot soldiers of Shepard's intelligence-not Shepard.  Shreaper has no heart, no emotion, no feeling.  That's not Shepard.

But it knows what Shepard wanted, what Shepard died to protect, and it promises that it will uphold the ideal, the protection of the many.  The Reapers are shown trying to atone by rebuilding the Relays, and they seem to be staying away from actual settlements, so recriminations are avoided. 

Also, didn't you notice how happy everyone was in most of the endings?  How, in Synthesis, galactic society was able to surpass previous achievements? How peace lasted? Compared to the alternative if the Catalyst hadn't offered those choices, each ending is a victory.

And all of this presupposes the choices are valid and the catalyst is credible.  Neither can be proven.  And refuse is an F U to us so as written it is a non-choice.  We are forced into a no choice conundrum.

Not every choice ends well.  I thought the justification Shepard gave was believeable, as was the defeat.  It turned out alright in the end though, give or take 50,000 years.

[PsyrenY]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I think we should stop trying to make sense out of the ending. It doesn't make any. The entire ending needs a complete rewrite without the Starbrat, and unfortunately it won't get one.

Good, now leave so the rest of us can speculations.

[Blacklash93]

The Catalyst designed all the endings. I thought this was obvious. The Crucible's energy needed to be optimized and given function via the Citadel to do anything.

[shodiswe]

The Angry One wrote...

What we know:

- The Crucible is said to be little more than a power source.
- The Crucible "changed the variables".
- The Catalyst has tried synthesis before.

Now for the purposes of this topic let's assume that every word that comes out of the Catalyst's lying mouth isn't self-contradictory garbage and take these things to be true.

I once made a topic asking why organics would include synthesis into the Crucible's designs and the best answer anyone gave was "indoctrinated agents".
That's all well and good but it still strikes me as odd that these would make it into the preserved designs and yet still nobody can ever figure out what it does.
Of course if we accept that the Crucible is just a giant battery the answer becomes obvious; synthesis is a function of the Citadel and not the Crucible.

If this is so then it explains why the Catalyst knows everything about synthesis and how it's tried it before. It would've used the exact same method as with the Crucible because it's the Citadel that does it. It just didn't have the power required.

Q&A time!

- "What about destroy and control?"
With this theory, they are also functions of the Citadel and not the Crucible. Possibly a creator failsafe that forces the Catalyst to make these functions available.

- "If it's just a power requirement why didn't the Reapers build it?"
The Reapers are technologically stagnant. It's possible they're just incapable of innovating a power source that can push the Citadel into covering the entire galaxy with green space magic. Granted why they can't just do it a bit at a time isn't explained by this theory but that's what working with bad writing gets you.

- "LOL did you make another topic to bash synthesis?"
I don't "bash" anything. I let the facts speak for themselves, and the facts are the Catalyst really really really really wants synthesis.

- "Does this suit make me look fat?"
Yes. But it's not the suit, it's you.

The Catalysts creators wanted synthesis. The Catalyst was programmed to achive synthesis and preserve the peave until the that time when the project was ready.

Indoctrinated agents came much later and had nothign to do with the design of the citadel or the Catalyst.

The control node used for the control ending is probably just an ancient dataport for a massively powerful storage device. This is probably where the Catalyst was put into the servers of the citadel at the start of the project.

Why anyone would bother with a small dataport that they have no equipment to interface with is beyond me. It's a tiny thing at the outsdie (below the citadel tower). The citadel is massive. The powerconduits that were destroyed in the destroy ending that caused some kind of feedback that destroyed all synthetics... It's just another powerconduit... nothing special. And the synthesis beam isn't there until the Crucible is attached and feeding power to the citadel researchstation.

I can't see the problem.

Is synthesis bad simply because the Catalyst completed the research? Research that the creators had specified to allow seemless interaction between Organics and synthetics.

Also im thinking that the sucessfulsynthesis template is Shepard. Synthetic upgrades that don't override or control the individual. Actual synthesis between Synthetic and organic. The Lazarus project was probably pushed ahead by the Catalyst tryign to direct TIM making TIM think it was his idea, but the Lazarus project was the Catalysts idea and therefor no matter how much resources were needed the Catalyst told TIM it was important.
When the catalyst create husks or other creatures it's a forced procedure "indoctrination" which could be the failure that the Catalyst mean't however the failure was still useful to bring order so it used it until something better became available. All that reaper tech that Cerberus managed to collect ot complete the Lazarus project was probably secretly funneled to TIm without TIM's knowledge to complete the project.

In a way you could say that Shepard is the product of synthesis. The final synthesis might be more far reahing though, with neural linking and such.

You also learn that it's Shepard that's needed to create the synthesis, it's not the Citadel, if the citadel could do it without Shepard then the Catalyst wouldn't have had to ask Shepard to share his design with the rest of the galaxy.

All in all the Citadel provides the meens for delivering the Synthesis desing across the galaxy, maybe activating dormant nanites and reprogramming them, nanites that the reapers have spewed all across the galaxy for indoctrination purposes to create husks and indoctrinated agents.

The Crucible provides the power to deliver the changes and power the nanites for the transformation of the entire galactic community.

The Lazarus project with "Shepard" as it's template provides the schematics and finnished research specifications for synthesis.

I'm not sure what "The Angry One" wanted to say... That Synthesis is bad because it's the catalysts creation?

TIM wanted control over everything and everyone but Shepard was the exception because the "Catalyst" demanded it. This is probably another reason why the BW team wanted that dialogue with Miranda about how much she wanted that control ship and how TIM wouldn't allow it.
TIM has always wanted to control everyone and indoctrinate and manipulate, but for some reason there was an exception in this case, and it's nothing like TIM to promote freewill. TIM had no say in the matter though, Catalyst orders, even if TIM didn't know it himself. Indoctrination can be subtle.

[3DandBeyond]

Cheviot wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
You did notice that in control and synthesis the reapers are still there right?  That's not a win by any stretch of the imagination.  They aren't defeated.  In one they are the totalitarian foot soldiers of Shepard's intelligence-not Shepard.  Shreaper has no heart, no emotion, no feeling.  That's not Shepard.

But it knows what Shepard wanted, what Shepard died to protect, and it promises that it will uphold the ideal, the protection of the many.  The Reapers are shown trying to atone by rebuilding the Relays, and they seem to be staying away from actual settlements, so recriminations are avoided. 

Also, didn't you notice how happy everyone was in most of the endings?  How, in Synthesis, galactic society was able to surpass previous achievements? How peace lasted? Compared to the alternative if the Catalyst hadn't offered those choices, each ending is a victory.

And all of this presupposes the choices are valid and the catalyst is credible.  Neither can be proven.  And refuse is an F U to us so as written it is a non-choice.  We are forced into a no choice conundrum.

Not every choice ends well.  I thought the justification Shepard gave was believeable, as was the defeat.  It turned out alright in the end though, give or take 50,000 years.

Uh where did Shepard ever say s/he needed to become something greater.  Only after becoming Shreaper.  Where did Shepard ever say it was a goal to only try and work for the many and ignore others that might have a problem with that?  Shreaper also might know what Shepard wanted, but wouldn't care because it wouldn't feel.  Listen to the music, it's very ominous not happy sounding.  No real person who ever saw what happened to Palaven, Thessia, Earth and on the collector's base would be happy with reapers around anywhere ever.  And they would still fear them because in Control they have no idea Shreaper is controlling them.  And for all anyone knows the reapers killed Shepard-which alone will give one group of people reason to hate them even if they send flowers.  Ever heard of Jack?  She gets pissed off pretty easily over more minor things.  And the geth.  Hmmm.  They didn't much care for what happened with the heretics and they don't like the old machines at all.  And the rachni-they really don't like the reapers and they have genetic memory and know what they have done since Prothean times.  The Krogan aren't pacifists.  The Batarians aren't either.  What happens if some of the many start fighting each other-the reapers are the new galactic police.  Who will they help?  The star kid's programming slipped up somewhere, so what if some conflict started and the purpose of the kid and Shreaper's purpose were and are to stop conflict.  What if the Xen decides to attack the geth?

In synthesis you can't honestly see anything wrong?  Knowledge should be earned.  Synthesis is forced on people since it is without their consent.  No one gave Shepard permission for that.  Some people in ME didn't even want implants and you think it's ok to force this on them?  Ever seen the Stepford Wives-the original version? 

Ever heard of advancement before being culturally ready in ME causing any problems?  Heard of the krogan?  Ever talk to Mordin about what happened to the protheans/collectors?  Ever talk to EDI about what it means to be alive?

So, synthesis leads to immortality.  Sure no conflict will ever arise from that.  Since we see Krogan babies after Synthesis there may be some conflict as a result of immortality.  You were very worried about them before but now they have green eyes and are smiling it's all ok.  Lots of immortal people in the galaxy can have lots of babies and they still have some individuality, so why can't conflict still begin again?  Immortality means lots of Krogan, lots of rachni, and so on.  Good luck with that.

Destroy is just some cruel artificial way to make players pay for choosing to try and destroy the reapers to get a good ending.  They didn't want a canon ending.

No ending is a victory-it's enacting the kid's choices and not Shepard's.  Since when did the kid's purpose become Shepard's?

And refuse is not a victory since I couldn't care less if some future cycle kills the reapers.  I care about the people here and now.  I just don't think a video game should make you dump your and your character's values, moral, ethics, and "soul" to end it.  That's not a victory.  That's sadistic.