69 réponses à ce sujet

[EpicBoot2daFace]

If you harden her character in Origins and convince her not to go back to the chantry, does she show up at the end of DA2 working for the Seeker?

[NKKKK]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

If you harden her character in Origins and convince her not to go back to the chantry, does she show up at the end of DA2 working for the Seeker?

Yes, your choices don't matter.

[Arthur Cousland]

That encourages me to not harden her in Origins, as she ends up with the Chantry anyway, despite her being bored there. At least as a Seeker, she can be with the Chantry and still stab people.

[LobselVith8]

NKKKK wrote...

Yes, your choices don't matter.

Pretty much. Leliana shows up as an agent of the Divine even if The Warden killed her. There is quite a bit of handwaving going on in Dragon Age II.

[Maclimes]

LobselVith8 wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

Yes, your choices don't matter.

Pretty much. Leliana shows up as an agent of the Divine even if The Warden killed her. There is quite a bit of handwaving going on in Dragon Age II.

I think they learned their lesson in DA2 after that.

"Hey, maybe we shouldn't let players kill off companions randomly, in case we want to use them as major characters down the line".

Hence the reason you can't get rid of or kill most of your companions (with a few notable exceptions) in DA2. They're playing it close to the chest. It removes many of the potential choices, but it also makes your "choices" more likely to carry over. We'll see what actually happens...

[thats1evildude]

Hardening Leliana doesn't convince her to leave the Chantry. It only changes her mindset and makes more receptive to certain immoral acts; otherwise, the difference between a hardened and an unhardened Leliana is negligible.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 19 juillet 2012 - 07:09 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

LobselVith8 wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

Yes, your choices don't matter.

Pretty much. Leliana shows up as an agent of the Divine even if The Warden killed her. There is quite a bit of handwaving going on in Dragon Age II.

Damn. That's a hell of a stretch.

[addiction21]

I have a dead Leliana, one that is alive and wander off wandering with the love of her life, another that went back to the chantry after he love sacrificed himself to stop the blight, and I am sure many have many others.
Which choices should matter? All of them? None of them? What if Morrigan shows back up? Why are some people acting as if this on thing invalidates the many more choices that carried over?

Personally I thought the importing of your decisions into the next game a neat idea at first. Its now turning into this convoluted cluster**** and would rather see my choices reflected more in the game then wondering if they will make it into the next game.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

addiction21 wrote...

I have a dead Leliana, one that is alive and wander off wandering with the love of her life, another that went back to the chantry after he love sacrificed himself to stop the blight, and I am sure many have many others.
Which choices should matter? All of them? None of them? What if Morrigan shows back up? Why are some people acting as if this on thing invalidates the many more choices that carried over?

Personally I thought the importing of your decisions into the next game a neat idea at first. Its now turning into this convoluted cluster**** and would rather see my choices reflected more in the game then wondering if they will make it into the next game.

But it worked pretty good in Mass Effect. Still, that game didn't have as much choice variation as DA:O.

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

Why are some people acting as if this on thing invalidates the many more choices that carried over?

Because it isn't simply one thing; it feels like the promise of carrying choices over was simply lip service when the world isn't really responding to our choices. Oghren coming back from the dead if he was killed by The Warden, Anders and Justice meeting each other even if Anders was never recruited and Justice was killed in the Dragonborn Wastes, and Leliana coming back from the dead are cited because they are prime examples of the creators handwaving our choices when it wasn't necessary to do so.

As someone who went through Origins with an elven protagonist who asked for his people to be given their independence, I wondered why the Magi boon was ignored in Awakening, and again in Witch Hunt when my Hero of Ferelden returned to the Circle Tower. Why didn't Wynne mention it when she discussed Cumberland, or Anders, considering his several attempts to escape the Circle Tower? And why isn't a mage holding political power over an entire city and the local military ever addressed? Wouldn't Meredith take issue with that?

Other people have addressed their own concerns for their respective Warden imports as well, but the main problem is that carrying over our choices doesn't really seem to have any genuine impact. When our choices are contradicted, it furthers the problem by having our respective choices feel even more meaningless. Having people literally come back from the dead is something that stands out for some people as being quite the handwave.

[AkiKishi]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

If you harden her character in Origins and convince her not to go back to the chantry, does she show up at the end of DA2 working for the Seeker?

If you cut off her head and left her in the cave she shows up.

[Tinxa]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

I have a dead Leliana, one that is alive and wander off wandering with the love of her life, another that went back to the chantry after he love sacrificed himself to stop the blight, and I am sure many have many others.
Which choices should matter? All of them? None of them? What if Morrigan shows back up? Why are some people acting as if this on thing invalidates the many more choices that carried over?

Personally I thought the importing of your decisions into the next game a neat idea at first. Its now turning into this convoluted cluster**** and would rather see my choices reflected more in the game then wondering if they will make it into the next game.

But it worked pretty good in Mass Effect. Still, that game didn't have as much choice variation as DA:O.

*Mass effect spoilers*

In ME they just handwaved it away also. And those were the big ending decisions in each game.

Picked Anderson for a human councillor? Doesn't matter beyond one scene in ME2 because he steps down and Udina becomes councilor anyway.
Did you sacrifice the council in ME1? Doesn't matter - new alien council is elected and behaves in exactly the same way as the old one.
Did you give the collector base to Illusive man? Doesn't matter - Cerberus and the Illusive man is still the enemy in ME3.

[AkiKishi]

Tinxa wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

I have a dead Leliana, one that is alive and wander off wandering with the love of her life, another that went back to the chantry after he love sacrificed himself to stop the blight, and I am sure many have many others.
Which choices should matter? All of them? None of them? What if Morrigan shows back up? Why are some people acting as if this on thing invalidates the many more choices that carried over?

Personally I thought the importing of your decisions into the next game a neat idea at first. Its now turning into this convoluted cluster**** and would rather see my choices reflected more in the game then wondering if they will make it into the next game.

But it worked pretty good in Mass Effect. Still, that game didn't have as much choice variation as DA:O.

*Mass effect spoilers*

In ME they just handwaved it away also. And those were the big ending decisions in each game.

Picked Anderson for a human councillor? Doesn't matter beyond one scene in ME2 because he steps down and Udina becomes councilor anyway.
Did you sacrifice the council in ME1? Doesn't matter - new alien council is elected and behaves in exactly the same way as the old one.
Did you give the collector base to Illusive man? Doesn't matter - Cerberus and the Illusive man is still the enemy in ME3.

But at least dead people did not show up.

[Maclimes]

Tinxa wrote...

*Mass effect spoilers*

In ME they just handwaved it away also. And those were the big ending decisions in each game.

Picked Anderson for a human councillor? Doesn't matter beyond one scene in ME2 because he steps down and Udina becomes councilor anyway.
Did you sacrifice the council in ME1? Doesn't matter - new alien council is elected and behaves in exactly the same way as the old one.
Did you give the collector base to Illusive man? Doesn't matter - Cerberus and the Illusive man is still the enemy in ME3.

Also, that's not handwaving. That's using in-game actions to neuter your decision.
In ME, they said, "Nah, your choice didn't actually matter".
In DA, they said, "Nah, your choice never even happened at all".

[jackofalltrades456]

Poor Leliana. Seems like she's become the poster girl of handwaves and retcons in the Dragon Age universe. Doesn't matter if you recruited her, never had a single conversation , and always left her behind at camp or romanced her, did her personal quest, and hardened her. It always leads to the same outcome in the end with little difference. A big no no when working with import saves. It basically takes the fun of doing anything with her in Origins since it doesn't matter in the sequel.

She could have easily been placed back into the the story without the handwaves. They could have just replaced her with someone else if you killed her. Have her work for a different fraction if you hardened her( Empress of Orlais, maybe), or used her as a way of bringing back the Warden if you romanced her. I agree with Lobselvith8. These retcons were unnecessary....

[Maclimes]

Also, the whole "killed her, she got better" thing could have been fixed with no handwaving if they had just planned ahead. Let her run off after being beaten in combat. And in DA2, give a big nasty scar as a reminder of what happens when you cross a sociopath. She could have played the exact same role, just scarred. The people who elected to "kill" her could feel SOME connection to what happened, and those who didn't won't see any scar.

[NKKKK]

Gaider: LOL DONT WORRY ABOUT IT GAIS

[andar91]

I don't get why they just nix the import feature in Dragon Age. Judging by the first two games, the games will differ quite a lot from each other in story and stuff like that. In Mass Effect it makes a lot of sense because you're progressing from a beginning to an end in a set trilogy with one PC, but Dragon Age switches around a lot. I don't think there are enough parallels to make it worth it.

At the very least, limit the player's ability to kill major characters if you're allowing choices to carry over.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Tinxa wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

I have a dead Leliana, one that is alive and wander off wandering with the love of her life, another that went back to the chantry after he love sacrificed himself to stop the blight, and I am sure many have many others.
Which choices should matter? All of them? None of them? What if Morrigan shows back up? Why are some people acting as if this on thing invalidates the many more choices that carried over?

Personally I thought the importing of your decisions into the next game a neat idea at first. Its now turning into this convoluted cluster**** and would rather see my choices reflected more in the game then wondering if they will make it into the next game.

But it worked pretty good in Mass Effect. Still, that game didn't have as much choice variation as DA:O.

*Mass effect spoilers*

In ME they just handwaved it away also. And those were the big ending decisions in each game.

Picked Anderson for a human councillor? Doesn't matter beyond one scene in ME2 because he steps down and Udina becomes councilor anyway.
Did you sacrifice the council in ME1? Doesn't matter - new alien council is elected and behaves in exactly the same way as the old one.
Did you give the collector base to Illusive man? Doesn't matter - Cerberus and the Illusive man is still the enemy in ME3.

Right. But my point was that the import information is valid with a few exceptions here and there.

[dsl08002]

i however is more interessted to know what happened between her and the warden if she was romanced

[jackofalltrades456]

dsl08002 wrote...

i however is more interessted to know what happened between her and the warden if she was romanced

I doubt they'll go into that past a quick mentioning. Even though she enknowledges the romance in Dragon Age 2, it felt kind of handwaved, imo. She was even the one that said the Warden was missing at the end.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

jackofalltrades456 wrote...

dsl08002 wrote...

i however is more interessted to know what happened between her and the warden if she was romanced

I doubt they'll go into that past a quick mentioning. Even though she enknowledges the romance in Dragon Age 2, it felt kind of handwaved, imo. She was even the one that said the Warden was missing at the end.

When does she make a cameo in DA2? Is DLC required?

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 19 juillet 2012 - 10:47 .

[addiction21]

andar91 wrote...

At the very least, limit the player's ability to kill major characters if you're allowing choices to carry over.

That is the problem. Choices are allowed to carry over but there was never a promise made that all choices made in one game would be carried over and held as some sort of sacrad mandate to be carried on forever and ever through out the franchise.

From what I think I understand. Many want their choices to matter. So at no point at any time, be it in a later game or seperate piece of media (Alistar being King in the comic) can any of their choices be contradicted?

[EpicBoot2daFace]

addiction21 wrote...

andar91 wrote...

At the very least, limit the player's ability to kill major characters if you're allowing choices to carry over.

That is the problem. Choices are allowed to carry over but there was never a promise made that all choices made in one game would be carried over and held as some sort of sacrad mandate to be carried on forever and ever through out the franchise.

From what I think I understand. Many want their choices to matter. So at no point at any time, be it in a later game or seperate piece of media (Alistar being King in the comic) can any of their choices be contradicted?

Were choices even meant to carry over when they started development on Origins? I know that was the idea with Mass Effect from the get-go.

[jackofalltrades456]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

jackofalltrades456 wrote...

dsl08002 wrote...

i however is more interessted to know what happened between her and the warden if she was romanced

I doubt they'll go into that past a quick mentioning. Even though she enknowledges the romance in Dragon Age 2, it felt kind of handwaved, imo. She was even the one that said the Warden was missing at the end.

When does she make a cameo in DA2? Is DLC required?

Yes, she appears in both The Fallen Prince and Mark of the Assassin DLCs