63 réponses à ce sujet

[SVKnight]

I'm TRYING to play the Original Campaign(more like this game) again. The problem I had the last time I played this game is that I can't decide which class to play and what build to use. I decided that I'll definitely play a rogue that can wield dual-wield, persuade, open locks, disable traps and all that good stuff. I'm thinking of going Rogue/Fighter 16/4. The problem is, I can't decide on a race and ability score distributions!
Here's my basic plan:

If Human:
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Wis 10, Int 12, Cha 10   OR
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, Wis 8, Int 12, Cha 10
- +1 extra feat
- +4 skill points at level 1 and another skill point per level
- NO MULTIclass PENALTY


If Elf:
Str 14/12, Dex 16, Con 14, Wis 8/10, Int 14, Cha 10   OR
Str 14/12, Dex 18, Con 12, Wis 8/10, Int 14, Cha 10
- +2 dex ability adjustment
- immunity to sleep
- +2 saving throws againt mind-affecting spells
- bonus proficiencies(if I ever decided to equip a bow for some odd reason)
- +2 to listen, search and spot
- keen sense
- HAVE MULTIclass PENALTY

Skills: (6 leftover points)
Disable Trap 23
Discipline 22 (last fighter level at character level 19)
Listen 23
Open Lock 23
Persuade 23
Search 23
Spot 23
Tumble 20
UMD 20

Feats:
Toughness
Weapon Finesse
Ambidexterity
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Blind-Fight
Knockdown
Improved Knockdown

I'm not taking any weapon focus/specialization or improved critical feats because I don't want to get married to certain weapon configurations. Although I prefer using rapiers/shortswords, I might change my mind and/or there was a better weapon currently available. I decided to forgo hide and move silently skills since they have little use to me based on my past experience.

To be honest, I prefer the elves over humans simply because they have many racial bonuses that are useful to rogues. The multiclass penalty is what bothers me since I heard XP you get from quests also gets reduced and that slows down your leveling and lower your possible level cap for the original campaign. These are just my speculations based on what I've read/heard so please Please PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong.

Modifié par SVKnight, 19 juillet 2012 - 07:02 .

[Elhanan]

More of an optional suggestion: consider using some ranged feats to widen your Kill Zone, and if they close, you are still covered.

[cds13]

Sure you don't want to take some more points on Hide/Move silently? Unless you're planning to have a companion you would lose the chance of getting more sneak attacks on your opponents. Lock picks are quite common in the OC, you may drag sone points from "open lock". You're not wrong on points deduction. As elf you will be proficient in longbows and longswords apart with some other feats but as human you would get more XPs. I agree with you when you say you don't want to be bound on a fixed set of weapons. Points' distribution seems good in both ways. Let's play it and you will know what works better

[SVKnight]

Elhanan wrote...

More of an optional suggestion: consider using some ranged feats to widen your Kill Zone, and if they close, you are still covered.

The enemy will probably close in on me before I can do much damage with a bow.

cds13 wrote...

Sure you don't want to take some more
points on Hide/Move silently? Unless you're planning to have a companion
you would lose the chance of getting more sneak attacks on your
opponents. Lock picks are quite common in the OC, you may drag sone
points from "open lock". You're not wrong on points deduction. As elf
you will be proficient in longbows and longswords apart with some other
feats but as human you would get more XPs. I agree with you when you say
you don't want to be bound on a fixed set of weapons. Points'
distribution seems good in both ways. Let's play it and you will know
what works better

I never really liked the Hide/Move Silently skills. They require full investment to be able to properly stealth undetected in my experience.

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

I hope you realize you're not likely to make it to level 20 in the OC. In fact, you'll have to be diligent about gleaning all available xp just to make it to level 17. You might wanna rethink your build a bit.

[SVKnight]

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

I hope you realize you're not likely to make it to level 20 in the OC. In fact, you'll have to be diligent about gleaning all available xp just to make it to level 17. You might wanna rethink your build a bit.

Yes but I'm thinking of continuing this character on to other modules.

[Elhanan]

SVKnight wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

More of an optional suggestion: consider using some ranged feats to widen your Kill Zone, and if they close, you are still covered.

The enemy will probably close in on me before I can do much damage with a bow.

Perhaps, but if the enemy is an archer themselves, they now have the advantage and may force you to close to them, if that is even possible. I would recommend PB Shot, at least. But then, I am not much of an all eggs in one basket kinda Player.

Also, your Base ST at 20th are +11 REF/ +9 FORT/ +6 WILL before any adjustments, I believe. You may wish to consider shoring up the weak links with a Feat or two unless you are certain Immunity items are available.

[cds13]

Once I tried the "wizard/rogue elf" and seemed to work good since it added some hitting power to the plain elf wizard (constitution being the main issue here). Relying on evokers' magics when dealing with undead and on your suggested combo (rapier/short sword) when on living creatures seemed to me the best way to work it through. The nicer thing is the plenty of points you get when levelling as rogue. I'll tell you, maybe I find DEX 18 more suitable for your needs

[MrZork]

Some general notes for the OP:

First, if you are looking at DEX builds, which seems to be the case, it is well worth your while to have a bow and some decent ammo handy. Sure, there are many situations when it won't help, but there are many when it will and it is particularly valuable for a rogue character when you take on undead who are 1) immune from sneak damage and 2) often slow-moving, giving you plenty of chances to do some real damage before they close on you. And, of course, being able to disrupt spellcasters at a distance is a big plus. Then again, putting feats into a bow may not be feasible, and it isn't strictly necessary, particularly if you are trying to get your dual wield feats relatively quickly. Though, I would say point-blank shot is pretty nice it if you can spare a feat.

Second, I don't know if you are planning on playing the OC with any add-ons, but I highly recommend Tony K's henchmen AI override. (See jmlzemaggo's "Add-ons and Tips..." thread in the NWN1 General forum.) It makes the baddies more challenging, and thus more fun, and it makes your henchmen smarter, which is a huge improvement and saves a lot of frustration in the game.

Third, most of the NPCs in the OC have 0 or low skill levels in listen and spot, so points in hide and move silently can be very useful, particularly to a sneaker. There are also items that help out, but the skill points will give you a solid base and don't take up valuable equipment slots. Keep in mind that you are getting a DEX bonus to both of those for free, so it doesn't take all that much to get them to effective levels.

A note on character race: I like elf rogue builds, myself. But, since you are correct in noting that the XP penalty will impact your build by the end of the OC, there is a downside to elves for your build. You may also want to consider a dwarf for this build, which will suffer no XP penalty and won't have the potential dual wield issues with weapon choice that a halfling might. In addition, the dwarvish CON bonus means that you might be able to drop Toughness and still have the same HP (and +1 fortitude saves), leaving that feat open for PBS or (even better) Iron Will.

About the skills: You probably don't need 23 skill ranks in disable trap for the OC, unless you are determined to disable tough traps during combat. Yes, there are a couple DC 45 traps, but you can get them with items. If you are playing with Tony K's AI enhancement, then discipline is useful in the OC. Otherwise, my recollection is that very few monsters (maybe none?) attempt knockdown or disarm. As noted, lock picks (even +10 by chapter 3) are plentiful, so the open lock skill doesn't need to be maxed. Honestly, 10 ranks in it, along with the DEX bonus and a +10 pick, will open any lock in the OC (probably less with items). There are several items that substantially increase persuade and it's never needed during combat, so there's no problem swapping items to use it. My preference would be to pull some points from those skills and improve hide, move silently, and put at least 10 ranks into set trap (which, with items and your DEX bonus, will let you set all the traps in the OC).

Feats: I think you have three rogue bonus feats to take and one or two more fighter bonus feats not shown in your feat list. Also, I understand not wanting to be locked into only one weapon, but foregoing Weapon Specialization is really giving up one of the best fighter feats. And, it's doing so in a DEX build, who will already have difficulty when it comes to inflicting damage on opponents who are immune to sneaks. What's more, since you are going the dexing dual-wield route and will have a natural preference for both light and finessible weapons, your best choice for weapons is restricted, anyway. Give up Improved Critical as you like - you already have a way to do extra damage via sneaks to anyone who isn't crit-immune. But, you should seriously consider picking up the Focus and Specialization feats.

Anyway, I know that some of my suggestions aren't exactly along the lines you mentioned, but I hope this is helpful anyway. I quickly put together a sample build on the CBC and the summary is below. (Not optimized at all, but somewhat balanced and I think it goes essentially where you want to go.) I choose dwarf because I was interested in what that looked like, but you could go human and take the extra feat. And, of course, you might choose to keep charisma minimal and just put an extra couple skill points into persuade to make up the difference for that skill. That would leave more ability points available elsewhere, perhaps for wisdom to increase that Will save, which is a significant weakness in this build.

Rogue(16), Fighter(4), Dwarf

ABILITIES (at level 20)
STR: 14
DEX: 16 (21)
CON: 14
WIS: 10
INT: 14
CHA: 8

LEVELING & FEATS
01: Rogue(1): Iron Will
02: Fighter(1): Weapon Finesse
03: Rogue(2): Ambidexterity
04: Rogue(3): DEX+1, (DEX=17)
05: Rogue(4)
06: Rogue(5): Two-Weapon Fighting
07: Fighter(2): Weapon Focus
08: Rogue(6): DEX+1, (DEX=18)
09: Rogue(7): Blind Fight
10: Rogue(8)
11: Rogue(9)
12: Fighter(3): DEX+1, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, (DEX=19)
13: Rogue(10): Slippery Mind
14: Rogue(11)
15: Rogue(12): Knockdown
16: Rogue(13): DEX+1, Improved Evasion, (DEX=20)
17: Rogue(14)
18: Rogue(15): Improved Knockdown
19: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization
20: Rogue(16): DEX+1, Defensive Roll, (DEX=21)

SUMMARY
Hitpoints: 176
Skillpoints: 206
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 11/8/16
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +2, Traps: +3, Poison: +2
BAB: 16
AB (max, naked): 22 (melee), 21 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 19/26

SKILLS
Disable Trap 11(15), Discipline 22(24), Hide 19(24), Listen 19(19), Move Silently 19(24), Open Lock 11(16), Persuade 4(3), Search 19(21), Set Trap 18(25), Spot 19(19), Tumble 21(26), UMD 22(21), remaining skillpoints 2

Modifié par MrZork, 20 juillet 2012 - 11:11 .

[Elhanan]

Or perhaps comsider Ranger instead of Fighter since you are planning on skipping the class only Feat; then favored Enemy will give you a little extra against Undead, or Giants, etc.

[SVKnight]

Okay, so I decided to put at least 20 points to these skills:
Search
Spot
Listen
Hide
Move silently
Tumble
UMD
Discipline

The rest will be split evenly between Open Locks, Disable Trap, & Persuade. That's probably 15 points each with 1 points to spare for a total of 206 skill points. Attainable through a human with 12 int or an elf with 14. I probably will be using a human though.

I also decided to get focus/specialization with rapiers mostly because they're my favorite weapon(aside from scythes) and finesse-able. I would like to know your opinions on the said changes.

@ MrZork Thanks for the extensive reply. I probably won't be using the dwarf race since I like to play as either a human, elf, or an half-elf.

[Dante2377]

 I used this build home.comcast.net/~worldofgreyhawk/builds/data/build208029.html and it cruised through the OC (of course any vaguely competant build will do so), but it was a strength-based dual-wielding ftr/rogue/assassin.  Being strength based really helped in terms of carrying gear and extra damage early on when it matters.  There's some good discussion there about skills too.

you definitely don't want a multi-class XP penalty in a fixed XP module.  Not that being a level or two back with a good build run by a fully conscious player wouldn't be able to finish, but why limit yourself unless you need to.  

[Elhanan]

As I recall, while rapiers may be finessed, they may not be small weapons; thus the off-hand will have larger penalties. Many seem to like short swords instead for this reason, while I prefer handaxes for the extra crit multiplier and slashing effect (ie; Keen spell).. But then, I luv my Dwarves!

But as for XP, simply play what you want; everyone ends up getting max eventually as you still plan on continuing elsewhere... Elves included.

Modifié par Elhanan, 20 juillet 2012 - 03:47 .

[SVKnight]

Elhanan wrote...

As I recall, while rapiers may be finessed, they may not be small weapons; thus the off-hand will have larger penalties. Many seem to like short swords instead for this reason, while I prefer handaxes for the extra crit multiplier and slashing effect (ie; Keen spell).. But then, I luv my Dwarves!

But as for XP, simply play what you want; everyone ends up getting max eventually as you still plan on continuing elsewhere... Elves included.

I know that rapiers are medium weapons. As I said, raper/shortsword was my preferred configuration when dual-wielding. As for the XP thing: I really want the best rewards in all things I do in these kind of games. Whether it's killing monsters or finishing a quest, I always choose the option that gives me the maximum rewards even if it means going at the limit of the boundaries of playing as a "goody two-shoes" character which I always do.

[Elhanan]

SVKnight wrote...

I know that rapiers are medium weapons. As I said, raper/shortsword was my preferred configuration when dual-wielding. As for the XP thing: I really want the best rewards in all things I do in these kind of games. Whether it's killing monsters or finishing a quest, I always choose the option that gives me the maximum rewards even if it means going at the limit of the boundaries of playing as a "goody two-shoes" character which I always do.

Then for max reward, choosing a finesse weapon that applies to both hands might be something worth considering....

[SVKnight]

Elhanan wrote...
Then for max reward, choosing a finesse weapon that applies to both hands might be something worth considering....

Yes but choosing rapier as my main hand, I can choose any type of light weapon for my off-hand that suit my needs. Shortsword/dagger for piercing, handaxe for slashing, and mace for bludgeoning. Like I said, I don't want to be tied to certain weapon configurations but I can atleast compromise when it comes to rapiers. Kukris might be a nice option for your advice but those need an extra feat to spend but I'm more likely to equip a scythe than a kukri when it comes to taking the exotic weapon proficiency feat WHICH I AM CONSIDERING(switching to str-based rogue with no dual-wielding feats, weapon finesse, tumble,hide and move silently; wearing heavy armor, have spring attack feat).

Now that I think about, that doesn't sound so bad. Maybe I can even concentrate on skills like appraise, heal or lore.

Modifié par SVKnight, 21 juillet 2012 - 11:44 .

[Elhanan]

Personally, I dislike DW as it is the weakest attack form in early lvls unless weapons are upgraded. And I prefer STR vs DEX designs, too.

These are the skills I use most frequently:

UMD
Tumble
Search
Disable Trap
Spot
Listen
Lore
Appraise
Open Lock

Persuade and Set Trap are taken depending on the mod setting; can give up Spot for needed pts as Listen covers perception well.

Back to Off-Hand: if you Specialize in short swords or handaxes, you are no more crippled by taking another weapon in the off hand than with rapiers. But rapiers will always be worse in the off hand, and that crit range levels off fairly soon; much prefer a higher crit multiplier.

[SVKnight]

Elhanan wrote...

Back to Off-Hand: if you Specialize in short swords or handaxes, you are no more crippled by taking another weapon in the off hand than with rapiers. But rapiers will always be worse in the off hand, and that crit range levels off fairly soon; much prefer a higher crit multiplier.

I think a higher critical multiplier does not make it a better weapon(talking about the handaxe). (Probably) All of it's magical counterparts also don't have keen. What's the use of a weapon with a high critical multiplier when you rarely have critical hits with it? Also, I dislike using scrolls too much so keen edge spell isn't gonna help and I doubt I can even find bulks of them to have it on most of the time.
What do you mean rapiers in off-hands? I NEVER said that I will dual-wield with TWO rapiers. Sigh... This is why I don't like discussing about weapon configurations. I get pretty defensive about my rapiers.

Modifié par SVKnight, 21 juillet 2012 - 05:48 .

[Elhanan]

SVKnight wrote...

I think a higher critical multiplier does not make it a better weapon(talking about the handaxe). (Probably) All of it's magical counterparts also don't have keen. What's the use of a weapon with a high critical multiplier when you rarely have critical hits with it? Also, I dislike using scrolls too much so keen edge spell isn't gonna help and I doubt I can even find bulks of them to have it on most of the time.
What do you mean rapiers in off-hands? I NEVER said that I will dual-wield with TWO rapiers. Sigh... This is why I don't like discussing about weapon configurations. I get pretty defensive about my rapiers.

Ask why scythes are popular among the WM crowd for answers. I enjoy watching an occasional high dmg result than see more lower ones, but that is me.

As for the math, someone else will have to offer proof as to what is actually the better choice.

The point I am making is that with a focus on another weapon is that you could improve off-hand weapon play. Whether rapier is used off-hand or not, it seemingly is an inferior choice compared to other selections available.

[Dante2377]

The real debate about a high-crit range weapon (eg rapier scimitar) vs a higher multiplier (like handaxe) have a lot to do with environment and enemies.

for example on a PW I play on, unless you have a very high AB weapon master type build, you're not going to be hitting hard bosses on a roll of 10-15, so the extended crit range of something like 12-20 (assuming keen weapon with improved crit) doesn't actually hit those types of opponents enough times to outweigh the higher multiplier from something like a handaxe. And the non-bosses aren't super threatening anyway, so being able to crit against them more often is really just a time-saver.  So in answer to your question "why is high multiplier good if you don't hit a lot?", the answer is, if you face environments with tough bosses where you're not hitting a lot anyway, the extra multiplier damage is a bonus and you're probably only hitting on crits anyway.

But it also depends on the specific environment OC vs a PW, etc, and what sort of damage bonuses are found/can be added to the weapon.

The OC is hard to judge "optimal" builds or compare builds (similar to vanilla Baldur's Gate2), because the enemy power level is so low that any half-decent build from a half-decent player should complete it.

Modifié par Dante2377, 21 juillet 2012 - 06:08 .

[Empyre65]

I remember seeing years ago that somebody did the math, comparing 19-20/x2 crits vs 20/x3 crits eith the sama base damage (longsword vs battleaxe or great sword vs great axe), and the difference was very very small, basically a wash. So, between the two, choose what looks better to you, or which one has a better magic version in your playing environment. Scimitar and rapier both have wider threat range than longsword (18-20, vs 19-20), but smaller base damage. Similarly, scythe has smaller base damage than other 2-handers, but the largest critical mltiplier in the game (x4).

Personally, I usually go for sword-and-board, with either warhammer for the seldom-resisted blunt damage and x3 crits, or scimitar for a lot more crits. Now that you're considering a STR-based build, here's a build I played in the OC, easily handling anything it threw at me, and I didn't need a henchman. Feel free to tweak it to fit how you want to play the game.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Level 20 Rough-and-Ready Rogue (Rogue 16 / Fighter 4)
Human, Any Alignment
Playable 1 - 20, PvM

Abilities:
STR: 16 (21)
DEX: 14
CON: 14
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 10

Leveling Guide:
Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Rogue(1): Toughness, Dodge
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Fighter(1): Blind Fight, Weapon Focus
04: Rogue(3): STR+1, {Uncanny Dodge I}, (STR=17)
05: Fighter(2): Power Attack
06: Rogue(4): Cleave
07: Rogue(5)
08: Fighter(3): STR+1, (STR=18)
09: Rogue(6): Mobility
10: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization
11: Rogue(7)
12: Rogue(8): STR+1, Spring Attack, (STR=19)
13: Rogue(9)
14: Rogue(10): Improved Evasion
15: Rogue(11): Great Cleave
16: Rogue(12): STR+1, (STR=20)
17: Rogue(13): Crippling Strike
18: Rogue(14): Improved Critical
19: Rogue(15)
20: Rogue(16): STR+1, Opportunist, (STR=21)

Stats:
Hitpoints: 196
Skillpoints: 229
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 11/5/13
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +2, Traps: +3
BAB: 16
AB (max, naked): 22 (melee), 18 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 16/26
Spell Casting:
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:
Disable Trap 23(27), Discipline 13(18), Heal 18(17), Listen 23(22), Lore 23(25), Open Lock 23(25), Persuade 22(22), Search 23(25), Set Trap 5(9), Spellcraft 8(10), Tumble 20(22), UMD 20(20)

01: Disable Trap(4), Listen(4), Lore(4), Open Lock(4), Persuade(4), Search(4), Set Trap(4), Spellcraft(2), Tumble(4), UMD(4), Save(4)
02: Disable Trap(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Set Trap(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(6)
03: Discipline(6), Lore(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(2)
04: Disable Trap(2), Listen(2), Lore(1), Open Lock(2), Persuade(2), Search(2), Tumble(2)
05: Discipline(2), Lore(1), Save(2)
06: Disable Trap(2), Listen(2), Open Lock(2), Persuade(2), Search(2), Tumble(2), Save(1)
07: Disable Trap(1), Listen(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Tumble(1), UMD(5), Save(1)
08: Discipline(3), Save(3)
09: Disable Trap(2), Listen(2), Open Lock(2), Persuade(2), Search(2), Tumble(2), Save(2)
10: Discipline(2), Save(5)
11: Disable Trap(2), Listen(2), Open Lock(2), Persuade(2), Search(2), Tumble(2), UMD(4)
12: Disable Trap(1), Listen(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spellcraft(2), Tumble(1), UMD(1)
13: Disable Trap(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spellcraft(2), Tumble(1)
14: Disable Trap(1), Listen(1), Lore(3), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1)
15: Disable Trap(1), Listen(1), Lore(5), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Tumble(1)
16: Disable Trap(1), Heal(2), Listen(1), Lore(2), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Tumble(1), Save(1)
17: Disable Trap(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1), Tumble(1), UMD(5)
18: Disable Trap(1), Heal(5), Listen(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1)
19: Disable Trap(1), Heal(5), Listen(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Persuade(1), Search(1)
20: Disable Trap(1), Heal(6), Listen(1), Lore(1), Open Lock(1), Search(1)

Modifié par Empyre65, 22 juillet 2012 - 09:07 .

[SVKnight]

Yeah.... I think I'll just forgo dual-wielding in favor of my scythes. But I'm quite torn whether I should add points to Tumble(purely for the AC) since I will be using heavy armor and will be taking Spring Attack feat. Should I probably add some points to Appraise too? I also am not sure whether I should take Fighter 4 early for weapon specialization or save it for later. I'm planning to take it on character level 12 for Discipline 15(High-STR will probably increase this for me) or should I just wait and take it at level 19 for Discipline 22?

Modifié par SVKnight, 22 juillet 2012 - 05:53 .

[Dante2377]

SVKnight wrote...

Yeah.... I think I'll just forgo dual-wielding in favor of my scythes. But I'm quite torn whether I should add points to Tumble(purely for the AC) since I will be using heavy armor and will be taking Spring Attack feat. Should I probably add some points to Appraise too?

Yes, max Tumble.  There are very few situations you won't want to.  The AC is worth it.

[Elhanan]

For a scythe, you may wish to consider Ftr 8/ Rog 12 as an alternative, But for a 4 lvl design, I tend to take llvls at 2, 7, 12, and 17th as a rule.

[Empyre65]

In the build I posted, I was trying to get Weapon Spec as early as possible, while avoiding falling behind in Rogue skills by having more than 1 level of Fighter in a row, and also making sure to have Rogue at levels 2, 7, 12, and 17 for well-timed Tumble skill dumps. Scythe should work fine with this build.

You'll need that Tumble AC even more, since you're not using a shield. Yes, you do get Tumble AC even while wearing heavy armor.