63 réponses à ce sujet

[HipMaestro]

Higher level rogues depend on sneaks for damage.  An obvious consequence is that undead are problematic as well as any other crit-immunes (which are most often also sneak immunes as well).  Then with high sneaks, the higher the APR, the greater damage per round.  So a dual-wield build will dwarf a slow high damage one, even without figuring crits into the equation.  Yes, scythes are high damage, but roughly half the APR of kukri dual-wield so half the sneaks.  Since scythes are not finessable, it MUST be a STR build so defense is going to be a huge problem not getting hit too often to make up for the damage being dealt. Scythes are best with a WM due to Ki Critical/Increades multiplier combo that compensate for the scythes's pedestrian crit potential.  IMO the best use for a high-damage (in this case, non-DevCrit) build is better success against spellcaster's concentration check. 

For that reason, I would build a dual-kukri (base crit 18-20) halfing, gaining the full advantage from the DW feats, AC, AB & all the other race boni.  Up to 16 levels (Rog 16/ Ftr 4) could be taken pre-epic to get to the non-hasted 4 SW APR/6 DW APR level. My preference would be to aim for an ED epic DEX toon with sling (and/or thowing) as a secondary switch utilizing the shield prof. from fighter class for range or just a S/S switch against high AB foes like dragons, if needed. Melee & range AB will be very similar levels. Yes, Keen Edge would be handy but I would use either wiz or bard in combo which would require a significantly different build for that.  I, too, am annoyed when forced to rely on procuring scrolls unless I could scribe them myself... not possible in the OC.

Unfortunately, if you are aiming for an optimized epic build, then the OC will not be optimized for the campaign, but rather just be introducing the first 17-18 levels of the final level 40 build and the benefits of Epic Dodge will never become a factor.  The good news is that in the OC, rogue is perhaps the easiest class to advance (IMO) because traps are readily available and can kill every boss that is otherwise a tough foe (like Belial).  The only exception are a few dragons in the last chapter that are hostile and difficult to trap (not impossible, but VERYdifficult for inexperienced trappers).  Even Morag is a breeze with deadly traps.  Traps are so plentiful in the OC that they can be sold if toting them becomes a problem but they are always available.

If this build was supposed to be designed specifically for the OC, well... the OC really doesn't need an optimized build even on the hardest difficulty setting.  Keep in mind that as far as skills are concerned, investing into any non-combat related skills like Persuade or Appraise, although handy, will sacrifice power from the build.  One exception would be Search, if you want to recover traps (can't disarm what you can't spot).  The stealth skills can be left surprisingly low in the OC and still remain effective (especially with a DEX build) but need to be much higher in subsequent content to win vs. the listen/spot checks..

Just another opinion to stir your "pot" of decisions.

[SVKnight]

Well for now it's for the OC. But when I do go into epic levels, I would probably take WM levels since I have most of it's requirements(dodge,mobility,spring attack & intimidate 4 is easy to acquire).

[SVKnight]

What's the best possible finesse-able weapon there is in the OC? I know there's Leech(+5 with vamp regen+3) which is pretty good and Blacksoul Sickle(+6? with vamp regen+2) too. I'm testing my scythe build with Death's Handmaiden(+4 with keen and vamp regen+3) and compare it to dual-wield build using best possible weapons.

Just tested the scythe build with these items:
Death's Handmaiden(+4 with keen and vamp regen+3)
Golden Circlet(mind-affecting spell immunity, will+1, 10 spell resist)
Red Dragon Armor(+5 ac, 20 fire resist)
Cloak of Fortification+3(+3 deflection ac, +3 universal saving throws)
Belt of Fire Strength(+5 str)
Amulet of the Uthgardt+4
(+4 str, fear immunity)
gauntlets of ogre power(+2 str)
Boots of Hardiness+3 (+3 dodge ac, +3 con)
ring of power(15 cold fire electric resist, freedom and regen+1)
ring of elemental resist (15 cold fire electric acid resist)

I don't know what monsters to test it so I decided on dragons(ancient). It can kill one pretty fast. Also tested with liches, adamantine golems and balors. It can kill a lich pretty quickly. Balors too unless it uses death magic which can kill me since I have low will saves. Adamantine golems are hard since the scythe can't damage it so I switched to a quarterstaff+3 and still managed to defeat it.

Modifié par SVKnight, 23 juillet 2012 - 12:22 .

[MrZork]

Death's Handmaiden is a pretty sweet weapon. Does it pop up that often in the OC? The ILR for it is level 18. (You can turn ILR off, but it's still something of a guide for when things will can start showing up in random loot.)

It may also be worth considering weapons with other properties that compliment a rogue particularly. For instance, there are several weapons with on-hit properties, like stun, that will allow you more sneak attacks, and that extra several d6 of damage is a much bigger damage boost (against sneakable opponents) than anything else you can get on a weapon in the OC. In addition, while a weapon like a Courtesan Blade or Wicked Union won't have the enhancement bonus of Death's Handmaiden, if an opponent is stunned, attacks against him are at (an additional) +2 and he loses dexterity and dodge bonuses to AC. Of course, many hits won't result in stuns, but it can be a great property for rogue weapons, at least when dealing with opponents who aren't immunde to mind effects.

[SVKnight]

Are there any other weapon(light) that Haste property in it other than Short Sword of Quickness? Seems nice since it provides an extra attack per round and +4 AC.
Also, if a monster with mind-affecting spells immunity is hit by an on-hit effect from a weapon(sleep, stun,  etc), would it be affected(assuming it failed the DC) or not?

Modifié par SVKnight, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:11 .

[Elhanan]

Immunity is just that; no matter the source, I believe.

[HipMaestro]

SVKnight wrote...
Are there any other weapon(light) that Haste property in it other than Short Sword of Quickness? Seems nice since it provides an extra attack per round and +4 AC.

By "light'. do you mean finessable?  If so, I don't think so in the OC.  Just a scimi that I can recall.

Yes.  Permahaste is an over-powered enhancement, one cherished by most.

Without morphing this topic into a spoiler thread by providing the exact what-and-where of specific permahaste items in the OC, let's just say that it would probably be a better strategy to procure the vended permahaste items (IIRC they start to appear by Ch 2) rather than waiting for high-level enhancements to drop in a specific game (unless you enjoy reloading each boss chest a zillion times until the desired item appears).

[SVKnight]

I don't exactly consider weapon locations and what-not a spoiler except if they're part of the story or something. I only know one item in chapter 2 that has haste on it and it was a robe(if that's what you're talking about). While I might not enjoy it, I do tend to reload boss chests to get needed items or certain high priced items like a certain 20k kukri or a certain 10k two-bladed sword.

[MagicalMaster]

There's a vendor selling boots with Haste on them in Act 3 if needed.

[MrZork]

And, I think a couple of the merchants from chapter two forward sell monk robes with haste, which should be usable to a UMD class.

I don't remember any fixed loot drops in the OC with hasted items. Obviously, the tedium of saved-game mining will eventually bring something up at one of the boss chests (not surprisingly near most boss encounters), but that's as much a matter of what level the character is as much as which boss is encountered. Since most of the hasted weapon and armor items are quite pricey, I wouldn't bet on seeing them before chapter three, though boots of speed may turn up sooner (once again, this is character-level dependent as much as chapter or location dependent).

[cds13]

There is an enemy which drops haste boots in chapter 2 but can't tell you more since this is a NO SPOILER section

[MrZork]

Now I am curious, cds13. Can you give more of a hint? I have definitely found boots of speed before in the OC (often more than once), but I don't recall fighting anyone who always drops them.

[SVKnight]

Huh.. If I follow my original feat plan for my dex build(1st post, no weapon focus/specialization), I have 3 left over feats. Should I really get weapon focus/specialization or are there any other more useful feat(dodge, mobility maybe?)? If I do get them, shortswords are probably a solid choice, right? I'm thinking of getting feyduster for an early weapon choice and also get that haste shortsword for late weapon choice. I'm also thinking of getting a (black,white,grey)Robe of the Archmagi(+5AC, universal saving throw+1, spell resist 10) rather than the +5 monk robes since that robe have -1 to listen.

[cds13]

It is supposed to be a "part-time" opponent since he gives up at a certain point, but more than once (played with several different characters) I killed him by error (a henchie which didn't stop in time or a spell launched just when the opponent was claiming for mercy). If this is not enough, Z, I can send you a message, let's say he is really popular between girls in Port Llast

[cds13]

To SVK, if I don't go wrong, and as already stated by HM, you will find a scimitar which enhances speed not a shortsword (but unlike the rapier it gets no bonus from "weapon finesse"). If you play a halfling rogue I would say that shortsword would be the better choice. Feyduster works great against living creatures but the rapiers deliver more damage and you can have one which has similar bonuses to the Feyduster.

[SVKnight]

cds13 wrote...

To SVK, if I don't go wrong, and as already stated by HM, you will find a scimitar which enhances speed not a shortsword

There is a shortsword that has haste as it's item property. It's called 'Short Sword of Quickness'.

Modifié par SVKnight, 27 juillet 2012 - 09:01 .

[cds13]

Yes, you are right. I never found it, seems useful!

[MrZork]

SVK, that short sword does look nice. I am pretty sure it has never turned up for me. Maybe because it's recommended level is 17 and that's the highest level I usually hit in the OC (actually I sometimes level up during the last battle...).

The short swords are a good option. Rapiers are nice, too, because of the wider crit range (base damage is the same as the short sword). Also, those mage robes are good, but keep in mind that the spell resistance they have is almost a non-factor at that level. There aren't that many great maces in the OC, but are they are also a viable option and they are a finesse-able weapon that doesn't lose effectiveness against skeletal undead.

cds13, can you PM me the boots-of-speed NPC, please? The only chapter 2 person I can think of who fits that description can't be the right guy, so I must have the wrong NPC in mind (I was thinking of a certain drunken mage with an imp problem). Now I am curious who it is.

[SVKnight]

Can I also have a PM for that NPC? I'm quite curious.

[cds13]

Hi, just sent the message to the both of you.

[MrZork]

Thanks for that note. The OP should know that that NPC generates random treasure when killed, so the haste item is just one of many possibilities. He also has a couple fixed items that drop, but the boots may or may not come as random boss loot.

Modifié par MrZork, 28 juillet 2012 - 01:22 .

[Empyre65]

If you're playing a halfling (or gnome), a rapier will not be finessable because it will be a 2-handed weapon.

[cds13]

MrZork wrote...

Thanks for that note. The OP should know that that NPC generates random treasure when killed, so the haste item is just one of many possibilities. He also has a couple fixed items that drop, but the boots may or may not come as random boss loot.

Oh, as I told Mr Zork, I've been lucky since each time I killed him he dropped speed botts and can't recall what else.

Anyway, random loot in the end. Thanks for the info

[HipMaestro]

Empyre65 wrote...
If you're playing a halfling (or gnome), a rapier will not be finessable because it will be a 2-handed weapon.

Even though dual shortswords are finessable for small creatures like halflings or gnomes, shortswords are not considered light weapons for those races and therefore offhand will get hit by the DW penalities.  Dual-wield with daggers or kukris for small creatures (or focus in two separate weapon categories) with kukris as the only weapon that can be keened without a general weapon property applied.

For loot mining... the key to getting a particular weapon type to drop in those chests specifically designed to seed only weapons is to focus in that weapon.  Unfortunately, without a custom loot spawn script substituted, if focused in more than a single weapon type, the script will always spawn according to the first weapon focus, alphabetically IIRC.  (The latest community patch contains such a customization though I have not yet been able to locate it myself. ShaDoOW knows better than I)

IMO... if a player really really really desires a particular weapon in their play-through, just spawn it in with the console rather than the tedium of reloading.  The end result will be the same and neither method will apply in multiplayer games unless assisted by DM.

[HipMaestro]

cds13 wrote...
Oh, as I told Mr Zork, I've been lucky since each time I killed him he dropped speed botts and can't recall what else.

Reason:  Because the rest of us NEVER get them! *lol*  The cruel laws of probability nibbling at our toes rather than delivering new shoes.