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[RavenEyry]

Rhayak wrote...

So many times on the internet i find myself helping people think things they cannot think on their own, no matter
how incredibly obvious.

If indoctrination theory was a fact, don't you think they would've just made it so in the EC, instead of leaving it open
to wild interpretation?

Because that's what IT is: an INTERPRETATION. End of it. It doesn't have, and it never had, any solidity.

Everything being exactly as it seems is also an interpretation. End of it. It doesn't have, ande it never had, any solidity.

[Rhayak]

RavenEyry wrote...
Everything being exactly as it seems is also an interpretation. End of it. It doesn't have, ande it never had, any solidity.

So by this bold thing you just said, ANY story told can be a hallucination.
Oh god you can't possibly be weaker than this.

Mass Effect tells a story and that's what it is. To say it's ending is a hallucination and loosely basing such statement on storytelling elements, THAT's an interpretation.

[RavenEyry]

Rhayak wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...
Everything being exactly as it seems is also an interpretation. End of it. It doesn't have, ande it never had, any solidity.

So by this bold thing you just said, ANY story told can be a hallucination.
Oh god you can't possibly be weaker than this.

Mass Effect tells a story and that's what it is. To say it's ending is a hallucination and loosely basing such statement on storytelling elements, THAT's an interpretation.

My point is you can't say"it's wrong because it's an interpretation". That is one of the stupidest things I've heard on this forum, which is really saying something.

[ppeters77]

The ending is surely open to interpretation and IT is an interpretation.

I'm just fed up with the folks saying that IT was planned all the way and all people who say otherwise (bad writing, rushed ending, etc.) are wrong. Saying the IT was planned all the way is like saying "screw many of our fans and hide some things which in the end please a few fans"

For all the mistakes which were made, I can't seriously believe that BW would be THAT stupid...

[Rhayak]

RavenEyry wrote...
My point is you can't say"it's wrong because it's an interpretation". That is one of the stupidest things I've heard on this forum, which is really saying something.

Which is really saying nothing besides a pathetic insult.

And of course i can say it. IT is an interpretation and a WRONG one. It's wrong because it's shaky and easily disproved even without the EC.

Everyone has opinions, but respecting wrong ones is harmful to the research of truth. Which is the point of forums really.

Modifié par Rhayak, 20 juillet 2012 - 10:23 .

[RavenEyry]

Rhayak wrote...
a WRONG one.

And now your stating opinion as fact. Are you trying to make me not take you seriously?

[Feanor_II]

"It's a dream", the perfect excuse to disprove anything:
- A memorial appears? Doesn't matter, "it's a dream".
- The retreat of the allied fleet appears? Doesn't matter, "it's a dream"
- Miranda (can) dies? Doesn't matter, "it's a dream"
- Autodialogue? Doesn't matter, "it's a dream"
- The "Red Wedding" in "A Storm Of Swords"? Doesn't matter, even that "it's a dream"

Those of us who do not believe in that "theory" can give as many proofs as possible, but for ITiers it's easy to negate them, because "it's a dream"

Also if it were true, the EC would have given clearer indications on that direction, but no, there was nothing of it.

Modifié par Feanor_II, 20 juillet 2012 - 10:35 .

[mad825]

IT is like god. It's infinitely there but at the same time non-existent.

If the IT hasn't been disproved then what was the point of EC? The point of "clarification" kinda removes any ambiguity.

Modifié par mad825, 20 juillet 2012 - 10:30 .

[Rhayak]

RavenEyry wrote...

Rhayak wrote...
a WRONG one.

And now your stating opinion as fact. Are you trying to make me not take you seriously?

That IT is bogus isn't just my opinion, it's a FACT. it's an OBJECTIVE STATEMENT. God you're dense.

-How the hell can Effective Military Strenght alter the course of a hallucination?

-Why does Vendetta not detect you as Indoctrinated if you're becoming so?

-Why does Harbinger shoot you if you're his pet?

-Why does the Stargazer scene EXIST if all that happens does not happen?


Can you give me a solid answer? no. You CAN'T.


No matter how much you IT lovers talk of hallucinatory trees near the beam, or rave about Anderson and TIM being allegoric figures in Shepard's mind.

THE IT IS BOGUS and that people STILL believe in it after all these months is nothing short of INCREDIBLE.

And mighty sad too.

[Feanor_II]

-How the hell can Effective Military Strenght alter the course of a hallucination?
Because "it's a dream"

-Why does Vendetta not detect you as Indoctrinated if you're becoming so?
Because "it's a dream"

-Why does Harbinger shoot you if you're his pet?
Because "it's a dream"

-Why does the Stargazer scene EXIST if all that happens does not happen?
Because "it's a dream"

:lol::lol::lol:

Now seriously, when EC came out and also during my 2nd game, when I was more aware what all that IT thing was about..... I thought the same about Vendetta.... If it is "somehow clear" (with circunstancial, superficial and out of context proofs) that I'm indoctrinated, why doesn't Vendetta detect it?

Modifié par Feanor_II, 20 juillet 2012 - 10:40 .

[Rhayak]

Feanor_II wrote...

-How the hell can Effective Military Strenght alter the course of a hallucination?
Because "it's a dream"

-Why does Vendetta not detect you as Indoctrinated if you're becoming so?
Because "it's a dream"

-Why does Harbinger shoot you if you're his pet?
Because "it's a dream"

-Why does the Stargazer scene EXIST if all that happens does not happen?
Because "it's a dream"

:lol::lol::lol:

WHOOOA dude i should've weared a helmet so i would'nt have made a mess when you BLEW MAH MIIIND XD

Modifié par Rhayak, 20 juillet 2012 - 10:39 .

[RavenEyry]

Rhayak wrote...

That IT is bogus isn't just my opinion, it's a FACT. it's an OBJECTIVE STATEMENT. God you're dense.

-How the hell can Effective Military Strenght alter the course of a hallucination?

-Why does Vendetta not detect you as Indoctrinated if you're becoming so?

-Why does Harbinger shoot you if you're his pet?

-Why does the Stargazer scene EXIST if all that happens does not happen?

Well since the stargazer one is the only valid one, you're not very good at making objective statements. Insisting it's not an opinion does not make your opinion any stronger. Neither does adding insults.

[Dark_Caduceus]

dorktainian wrote...

it doesnt.

if anything when harby says 'serve us' before nuking shep, it only strengthens the IT case.

I just... NYEEEEAAARRRGHHHH MORE BRAIN CELLS DIE EACH TIME I VISIT THIS SITE!!!!

[Rhayak]

RavenEyry wrote...
Well since the stargazer one is the only valid one, you're not very good at making objective statements. Insisting it's not an opinion does not make your opinion any stronger. Neither does adding insults.

Just as i said and expected, you can't give me a solid answer. You just can't.

You even shot your own foot by saying the Stargazer one is valid. That alone should be enough to make the whole IT bogus crumble in any barely-intelligent mind.

Now, clearly i was the one who made the mistake of taking you seriously. 

I did not merely insist, i put up some concrete points.

Now, either tell me why they are not valid or have the decency to stand down.

[dorktainian]

what happened to this thread?

[RavenEyry]

Rhayak wrote...

-How the hell can Effective Military Strenght alter the course of a hallucination?

-Why does Vendetta not detect you as Indoctrinated if you're becoming so?

-Why does Harbinger shoot you if you're his pet?

-Why does the Stargazer scene EXIST if all that happens does not happen?

1) How succesfully you resist the reapers affects their opinion of you

2) Because you're not indoctrinated.

3) Harbinger knocks you out. He could have easily killed you if he tried.

4) As I said, stargazer is not easily to explain. I don't understand how one point that doesn't fit "makes the whole theory crumble", when there are dozens of points that don't fit the face value interpretation.

[dorktainian]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

it doesnt.

if anything when harby says 'serve us' before nuking shep, it only strengthens the IT case.

I just... NYEEEEAAARRRGHHHH MORE BRAIN CELLS DIE EACH TIME I VISIT THIS SITE!!!!

what you mean you still have some?  

[shepdog77]

EC doesn't disprove IT, because there is no IT (within the game) to begin with. The IT is a fanfiction, and nothing more.

[CoolioThane]

Wait. "IT is easily disproven" yet you can't ****ing disprove it. Jesus H. Christ.

IT is not valid because they don't say it in the game - You are saying nothing in the game is subject to non-literal thinking...despite the fact they ****ing said that it is FULL of this sort of thing. They put in the majority of clues on purpose, son.

Also, they confirmed the Catalyst is made up of shep's memories...how does that happen? HMMMMM

[Aaleel]

Well the reject choice would be the one that broke the indoctrination attempt based on the basic premise of the IT. Not choosing is a stronger rejection of what the reapers are supposedly trying to do than actually picking something, even if it's destroy. So that fact that reject leads to you losing the cycle pretty much says it all.

But just from a practical standpoint. People think Bioware faked the ending twice, really?? They made up an entire DLC based on events that aren't really occurring to explain other events that aren't occurring.

The EC not confirming the IT was the biggest denial of it by Bioware. It's a fine head cannon, but it's not what happened.

[Xeranx]

Rhayak wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Rhayak wrote...
a WRONG one.

And now your stating opinion as fact. Are you trying to make me not take you seriously?

That IT is bogus isn't just my opinion, it's a FACT. it's an OBJECTIVE STATEMENT. God you're dense.

-How the hell can Effective Military Strenght alter the course of a hallucination?

-Why does Vendetta not detect you as Indoctrinated if you're becoming so?

-Why does Harbinger shoot you if you're his pet?

-Why does the Stargazer scene EXIST if all that happens does not happen?


Can you give me a solid answer? no. You CAN'T.


No matter how much you IT lovers talk of hallucinatory trees near the beam, or rave about Anderson and TIM being allegoric figures in Shepard's mind.

THE IT IS BOGUS and that people STILL believe in it after all these months is nothing short of INCREDIBLE.

And mighty sad too.

EMS can influence Shepard into believing we are or aren't ready to take on the Reapers.  With that knowledge in mind, the dreams that occur can display his/her worst fears or greatest hopes. 

Vendetta not noticing that you're indoctrinated is actually extremely easy to wave off.  Shepard doesn't expect to be indoctrinated so s/he won't think there's a chance that they are.

"Why does Harbinger shoot you if you're his pet?"

Why did Harbinger have you killed in ME2?  Why did Harbinger try to salvage you years after you were dead, but he had the means to orchestrate a retrieval of Shepard's body immediately following the destruction of the SR1?

Dreaming of what might happen in the future is not uncommon.  It happens.  Possible hopes and possible failures are fair game in dreams.  It's the mind.  It gives us a lot of crazy fantasies when we sleep.  I know I can't fly like Superman, but that never stopped me from dreaming that I was able to.  Or that I could survive a fall from a tall building.

[CoolioThane]

Aaleel wrote...

Well the reject choice would be the one that broke the indoctrination attempt based on the basic premise of the IT. Not choosing is a stronger rejection of what the reapers are supposedly trying to do than actually picking something, even if it's destroy. So that fact that reject leads to you losing the cycle pretty much says it all.

But just from a practical standpoint. People think Bioware faked the ending twice, really?? They made up an entire DLC based on events that aren't really occurring to explain other events that aren't occurring.

The EC not confirming the IT was the biggest denial of it by Bioware. It's a fine head cannon, but it's not what happened.

Refuse? Refuse means he's broken Shepard.

Shepard by nature is a man of action. Every option you are given, Paragon or Renegade? You still are taking an action. Only the neutral options let you opt out, they never turn out well, and they removed them in ME3. Paragon and Renegade are both still heroes, their methods and motivations vary, but they do share the same goals, Paragon is not good, merely charming and peaceable. Likewise Renegade is not evil, merely violent and direct.

Shepard always has a goal. Always. For three games it was "Destroy the Reapers and damn the consequences, this war WILL have casualties."

And now we have Shepard going "I don't want to be their killer, so I am going to let everyone die just so I don't have to do something I perceive as immoral." That's not Shepard. It might not necessarily be wrong, but it's not Shepard. Even if Destroy was the only option, Shepard would STILL take an option.

Bill Casey's sig puts it pretty well. Shepard is not a hero or a messiah. He's a soldier.

Harbinger WANTS Shepard. He wants Shepard exactly as he is. He isn't looking for "Not-Shepard" choosing Refuse, Shepard has chosen not to commit one way or another, to opt out. Refuse means he has lost his determination, his necessary drive that was an integral part of him. He lost the part of himself that Harbinger wanted. He's useless to them now. What's more, he's a frustration. Somehow, in the final moment, not only did he deny Harbinger his prize, he also denied him further methods of acquiring it.

It would be like just before crossing the finish line, watching someone not only run off with your trophy, but also break it so you couldn't posess it. 

Original quote by: Arian Dynas

[Rhayak]

RavenEyry wrote...
1) How succesfully you resist the reapers affects their opinion of you

So they give you a more variegated dream? That doesn't make any sense. If you're dreaming and indoctrinated then you're just doing nothing besides laying unconscious in London. How can you even be a puppet of the Reapers like that?

2) Because you're not indoctrinated.

Indoctrination is slow and gradual. Now, unless the Reapers invented some new sort of rapid indoctrination just for you, you can't be indoctrinated at the end if they don't begin working on you way before Thessia.

3) Harbinger knocks you out. He could have easily killed you if he tried.

Knocks you out with a heavy-powered laser? Besides, why the hell should he even do that? All he needs to do is vaporize you and watch the rest of the Reapers defeat the allied fleet. The Cycle continues, pure and simple.

The last thing he needs to do is put you through some weird mind trap. He's Harbinger, a cold war machine bent on executing his programming, not David Bowie.

Puppeteering with Shepard at that point is just useless. Un-Reapery in every sense.

4) As I said, stargazer is not easily to explain. I don't understand how one point that doesn't fit "makes the whole theory crumble", when there are dozens of points that don't fit the face value interpretation.

The Stargazer scene happens because you have destroyed/controlled/married the Reapers. FOR REAL. It changes in Reject to address the fact that only the next cycle manages to do that. So in the next cycle, we have grandma instead of grandpa. There, explained. 

If you come up with a theory that assumes everything DID NOT HAPPEN, then she Stargazer scene alone is a pretty huge hole to ponder on.

[Aaleel]

CoolioThane wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Well the reject choice would be the one that broke the indoctrination attempt based on the basic premise of the IT. Not choosing is a stronger rejection of what the reapers are supposedly trying to do than actually picking something, even if it's destroy. So that fact that reject leads to you losing the cycle pretty much says it all.

But just from a practical standpoint. People think Bioware faked the ending twice, really?? They made up an entire DLC based on events that aren't really occurring to explain other events that aren't occurring.

The EC not confirming the IT was the biggest denial of it by Bioware. It's a fine head cannon, but it's not what happened.

Refuse? Refuse means he's broken Shepard.

Shepard by nature is a man of action. Every option you are given, Paragon or Renegade? You still are taking an action. Only the neutral options let you opt out, they never turn out well, and they removed them in ME3. Paragon and Renegade are both still heroes, their methods and motivations vary, but they do share the same goals, Paragon is not good, merely charming and peaceable. Likewise Renegade is not evil, merely violent and direct.

If I think you're trying to trick me, the biggest rejection of you is to not play your game at all.  Playing the game period is giving in to what you want.

[Aaleel]

Also someone needs to explain to me how is it that TIM can kill you, critical mission failure dead.

And what does this mean? Are you indoctrinated, dead, even though you didn't really get shot. Or how come you wake up in the breath scene in the exact same armor you have on in the dream sequence. If one is reality and one is a dream how is this possible?