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[SubAstris]

Edorian27 wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...

 IT insists there is more content coming otherwise its pointless.  The EC has come nad gone and it did not involve IT.  There is no more content coming post-ending.  That is it.  Without future content confirming IT and depicting the events afterwards you are left with an eternal cliff hanger at best if you still believe in IT.  That defeats the purpose of the IT to begin with which was to explain how its not really over and more is coming.  More is not coming.  Sorry.  

I don't need additional content, I didn't even need EC to find this ending satisfying, but only with IT. It is not a cliffhanger either, it just does not show your victory explicitly. It is implied though by Shep waking up during daylight, when it seems the battle taking place at night is over.

During daylight? How do you know, it is bloody dark!

[XxDarkTimexX]

[quote]XxDarkTimexX wrote...




-How the hell can Effective Military Strenght alter the course of a hallucination?

-Why does Vendetta not detect you as Indoctrinated if you're becoming so?
thats because he's not indoctrinated only until after harbinger hits Shepard with the beam  
-Why does Harbinger shoot you if you're his pet?
because your not, at least not yet
-Why does the Stargazer scene EXIST if all that happens does not happen?
and now you support the starchild

[/quote]
if people can't understand indoctrination theory then there is no point in argueing. 
the whole point of being indoctrinated is that you don't know if your being indoctrinated
if people looked at everyone who is indoctrinated in all mass effect games no one is safe form indoctrination.
The reason why i like indoctrination because its almost like the ring of power from lord of the rings. 
for example if your near reaper artifacts for a long time chances are your indoctrinated its almost the exact thing that when your holding the ring of power there more time passes the more it controls you  [/quote]
and also the reaper have always wanted a human reaper if they had shepard's mind as a reaper then no species can stop them ever again  

[Edorian27]

SubAstris wrote...

During daylight? How do you know, it is bloody dark!

I just reviewed the scene ingame and you are right, it is not as obvious as I remembered it. 
When the camera moves over the rubble to Shepard it seems to me the stones are illuminated by sunlight, but it might be artificial light. as well.
The background is still dark and could either be smoke or night, so yeah, it is just my interpretation.

[SubAstris]

Edorian27 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

During daylight? How do you know, it is bloody dark!

I just reviewed the scene ingame and you are right, it is not as obvious as I remembered it. 
When the camera moves over the rubble to Shepard it seems to me the stones are illuminated by sunlight, but it might be artificial light. as well.
The background is still dark and could either be smoke or night, so yeah, it is just my interpretation.

It's definitely night. Technically it should all be dark, but couldn't do that because you wouldn't see a thing

[MassEffect762]

It doesn't.

Let's just say(imo) that the direction they took was the easy way out and they're too 'proud' to admit that I.T. would've made a more compelling twist.

[danby]

dorktainian wrote...

oh and anyone else notice when shep 'wakes up' after the beam thingy, he doesnt simply wake up, he almost 're-boots'?

They did that as a bone for the IT fans.   Almost all of IT theory is based on evidence that is easily explained away.

1.  Q)Why is sheppard almost floating and its all fuzzy?
  A) Sheppard was just partially hit by a giant f'n lazer beam and is in major shock.

2. Statement:Theres black lines floating around the screen, that proves that  sheppard is being indoctrinated. 
    Reason:  This is because the illusive man is using indoctrination technology on sheppard.  It only appears at that scene and dissapears after illusive man is killed.

3. Sheppard wakes up in pile of rubble on earth because there is re-bar.   It also shows that sheppard broke the indoctrination in the destroy ending.

Reason:  The rubble is the citadel.  The 're-bar' is actually wiring that you can clearly see as you walk through the red room.   Also the destroy ending is the only ending in which sheppard isn't vaporised so its the only one that its possible for him/her to wake up.


If indoctrination theory were true then there wouldn't be a fourth ending.   The refusal ending clearly shows that it is not true.  If by exerting your will and going against the reapers wishes was all you needed to do to break the 'indoctrination' then refusal would be even more of a slap in the face then destroy would be.

Also there are now clearly long epilogues of the state of the galaxy after each individual ending.  Indoctrination would not be this complex.  The indoctrinated aren't caught in some future galaxy dream, they know they are in the hear and  now and are just on board with the reapers way of thinking.

[MetioricTest]

^ don't forget that even if we accept IT... It means there is no ending at all. Shepard's buried under rubble as the Reapers battle

[De1ta G]

If anything the new scene in the EC where Shepard now wakes up suddenly after going up the beam to the Citadel was acknowledgment of the IT. Shepard waking up. Shepard having bright, indoctrinated looking eyes for a second, and the violent mechanical noise that goes along with Shepard opening his/her eyes. It isn't proof of the IT, but it's something and BioWare made it very clear they didn't want to say whether or not the IT was true.

[The Real Bowser]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Silhouett3 wrote...

The Real Bowser wrote...
The fact that the extended cut did not directly work with the indoctrination theory, and the fact that Bioware directly said it wasn't true is proof enough.

When/where did Bioware said that?

They never said it. The guy has no clue and is just making things up. Howling with the wolves. Common thing in the BSN.

Don't blow this **** at me and compare me with the generic 'can't think for themselves' crowd that overwhelms the majority of online communities and the world in general.  I think for myself.  I decide for myself.  And I find information myself.  And I loathe the majority of BSN (no individuals listed, not everyone is bad, I assume people are decent people, even if the majority are not) for how the retake crowd was treated -- brutally, ruthlessly, and they never did anything to deserve the level of treatment they had gotten.

So again, if you want to debate with me, use real, mature discussion, not this ad hominen bull**** you're tossing at me because you can't find anything better when I'm not even attacking you, and frankly, even sympathize with you.

Unfortunately, I can't remember where I heard this, and frankly, I might have heard a slightly different version that would be essentially inaccurate and debatable.  I am not going to spend hours looking for it.  If this means you don't want to take my word for it, I don't blame you.

It really doesn't matter though.  I used to believe in the indoctrination theory, but that only made sense when we had the exceptionally short ending that almost exclusively focused on Shepard's own experience, instead of telling the story that occured afterwords. 

Seriously, the fact that they have delayed DLC and have spent countless hours of VALUABLE development time to make this is proof enough that this is the real ending.  They aren't going to waste that kind of effort, time, and money that could have been used on DLC on a 'fake' ending to reveal a better one later.

I was at the Indoctrination theorists' side before, but we've gone from unlikely, but hopeful, to completely ****ing impossible.  Just give it a rest.  I am not saying this in criticizing or attacking you, I feel for you, I agree that even the current ending is not really satisfying, but what's done is done, and it isn't changing.  Bioware has made it obvious as daylight that what we have is it.  I mean this with sincerity and sympathy when I say, it's time to move on.

What I do think is that Bioware threw things in like what the above poster mentions to make for more discussion and keep indoctrination theorists alive.  This kind of debate and discussion keeps forums active, frankly it was a good idea to do it even from simply a business standpoint.  It's easy to take these seriously and want to believe again, but I encourage you not to.  The evidence is weighing drastically against your favor to the point of extremes, and evidence in the real world (EA letting Bioware wasting money?  Nope, don't think so buddy) is more real than subtle hints that could mean anything in the game does.

Modifié par The Real Bowser, 22 juillet 2012 - 08:31 .

[Joccaren]

 

Edorian27 wrote...
Let me ask you though: Do you prefer the ending as it is in a more literal interpretation over IT? Why?

Personally I'm at a point of Apathy with the endings. They are what they are. If I had my way, I would have Bioware shift-delete everything from the beginning of Priority: Earth onwards and rewrite that to fix the ending. I'd also have them do some rather heavy editting throughout the rest of the game, but niether is going to happen so I'm beyond the point of caring about what the endings are when there is so much else that could be done better, and Bioware have made it clear their not touching the endings again.

And one question about a hint in favor of IT. What do you make of the Citadel being paced together of parts of the Collector ship, the Shadowbroker vessel and the TIM - Room in the end?

Collectors Ship: Quite simple. The Citadel serves the same purpose as the Collector Base.
Think about it.
The Collector base was inhabited by Collectors since the Prothean cycle - 1 cycle back. So, before the Prothean cycle, how did they forge new Reapers?
It is possible that the Collector base was inhabited by previous races prior to the Protheans, however I find it more likely that the Collector base was made after the Prothean cycle for Research and a form of Pre-Reaper Arrival warfare on the races of the galaxy.
The Citadel was where they built their Reapers prior to this. That is also why it is moved above Earth - the Reapers are completing the harvest of our species, and are about to commence construction of a new Reaper.

The Shadow Broker Ship parts are easily put down to asset re-use. Same reason there is Allaince Coms towers or W/E lining some of the ramps in that area. It is also interesting to note that the Shadow Broker ship occurs before the Collector Base if doing a straight run of ME2, and as there is no canon in the ME games it is entirely possible for many Shepards to have not gone there, meaning they would never have seen the ship to have it appear in their memories.

The central control room looking somewhat like TIM's control room - though on a smaller scale and with the Citadel rather than a star - is something that I don't even notice all that much. If it were intentional and not entirely a co-incidence I'd say its likely to keep in with the TIM theme. Its probably part of his aesthetic.

The resembelance is pretty obvious to me, and makes sense in IT where it is pieced together from Shepards memories.
How does it make sense in a literal interpretation?

It makes sense in a literal interpretation simply as "That is what the rooms look like". There is nothing that could not make sense. It is simpy what the rooms do look like at that part of the Citadel.

XxDarkTimexX wrote...
-How the hell can Effective Military Strenght alter the course of a hallucination?

-Why does Vendetta not detect you as Indoctrinated if you're becoming so?
thats because he's not indoctrinated only until after harbinger hits Shepard with the beam  
-Why does Harbinger shoot you if you're his pet?
because your not, at least not yet
-Why does the Stargazer scene EXIST if all that happens does not happen?
and now you support the starchild

Annnnd....
Wha?
I ask for arguments proving IT, you post a series of assumed arguments in an attempt to downplay your opposition, whilst failing to support your own arguments.

if people can't understand indoctrination theory then there is no point in argueing.

If you can't understand face value endings, there's no point in arguing.

the whole point of being indoctrinated is that you don't know if your being indoctrinated

In a story telling setting, however, this doesn't work. At the time you may not notice, however for it to be an effectively told story, the audience needs to know that that is what happened. If not, for all intents and purposes, it didn't occur.

if people looked at everyone who is indoctrinated in all mass effect games no one is safe form indoctrination.

Except for apparently Shepard, who can fight off Indoctrination according to IT, rather than having to kill himself or submit to the Reapers will in ALL scenarios.

[Candidate 88766]

The sole purpose for the IT was to give people a credible reason to believe that the story wasn't over - that the 'real' ending was still on the way.

There are different variants of the IT, but they all boil down to the same premise: the ending sequence of the game is not real, but is in fact a hallucination or partly a hallucination. The various ITs say that Bioware hid hints throughout the game of Shepard's indoctrination - hints which build up to the eventual reveal of a 'real' ending.

However, we now know that there is no 'real' ending coming. If there was, it would have been in the EC. The EC did not include these 'real' endings though, and instead expanded only on the endings in the game. If the IT was true, then this means Bioware spent months working on and hyping up a DLC which expands only on hallucinations. Even the most devout IT-supporters must admit that this is wrong. The EC expanded on the established endings because they are the endings.

There were no hints leading up to the reveal of a 'real' ending. We already had the real endings. The entire point of the IT was that 'real' endings were on the way. Now that we know this to be the case, we know that the IT was not what Bioware intended.

The IT is still technically valid - if you want to believe that the trilogy ends with no closure of any kind, with the Reapers still on Earth, then thats up to you. This technically cannot be disproved. However, the idea that Bioware intended the IT and will be releasing a true ending later down the line is dead.

Its still a perfectly valid interpretation, but without actual endings that provide closure I'm not sure why anyone would choose this interpretation. The fact that Bioware chose to expand on the endings in the game rather than providing something the payoff that the IT was building up to should be enough to show that the IT wasn't their interpretation of the endings though.

[DirtyPhoenix]

For me, believing in IT=believing that the endgame is still to happen. Otherwise the game, and the trilogy is ending-less. Reapers are reaping while Shepard lies wasted.
This is why I believed in IT pre-EC and this is why I don't believe in it anymore. I don't see any more ending/post-ending DLC coming. Bioware has clarified the EC would be the last ending-related DLC.

[SubAstris]

Candidate 88766 wrote...
.

Its still a perfectly valid interpretation, but without actual endings that provide closure I'm not sure why anyone would choose this interpretation. The fact that Bioware chose to expand on the endings in the game rather than providing something the payoff that the IT was building up to should be enough to show that the IT wasn't their interpretation of the endings though.

If you're a hardcore ITer, you can H&H: headcanon and hope

[Edorian27]

Joccaren wrote...





Collectors Ship: Quite simple. The Citadel serves the same purpose as the Collector Base.
Think about it.
The Collector base was inhabited by Collectors since the Prothean cycle - 1 cycle back. So, before the Prothean cycle, how did they forge new Reapers?

Yeah, the Collector Ship part is not too far fetched, cause both were Reaper influenced.

Joccaren wrote...


The Shadow Broker Ship parts are easily put down to asset re-use. Same reason there is Allaince Coms towers or W/E lining some of the ramps in that area. It is also interesting to note that the Shadow Broker ship occurs before the Collector Base if doing a straight run of ME2, and as there is no canon in the ME games it is entirely possible for many Shepards to have not gone there, meaning they would never have seen the ship to have it appear in their memories.

Shepard might not need to know it, but I guess most players played the SB DLC. Anyway if they don't and the resemblance is intended in light of IT, it would not hurt if Shepard/the player can't relate to it anyway and it would be a hint for the other players only. 
Still, it does not make sense on the citadel. If I recall correctly, these parts of the SB Ship were made to navigate savely through a storm - which the Citadel doesn't usually.

Joccaren wrote...
 
The central control room looking somewhat like TIM's control room - though on a smaller scale and with the Citadel rather than a star - is something that I don't even notice all that much. If it were intentional and not entirely a co-incidence I'd say its likely to keep in with the TIM theme. Its probably part of his aesthetic.

It makes sense in a literal interpretation simply as "That is what the rooms look like". There is nothing that could not make sense. It is simpy what the rooms do look like at that part of the Citadel.

Hmm, that does not convince me. I do remember BW claiming in DA2 that they have to reuse areas, but the End of the Shepard Saga is too important to simply copy the TIM room and they got very negative feedback for this in DA2.

So if I had to guess a coincidence is unlikely. Why would a room inside the citadel look like the TIM room with that big open Space window in the back, one control panel, the same form, when no one has gone there before to see it? 

So considering which is more likely I'd still say it is that it is a picture drawn from Shepards mind rather than reality. 

[Verit]

Candidate 88766 wrote...
However, we now know that there is no 'real' ending coming. If there was, it would have been in the EC. The EC did not include these 'real' endings though, and instead expanded only on the endings in the game. If the IT was true, then this means Bioware spent months working on and hyping up a DLC which expands only on hallucinations. Even the most devout IT-supporters must admit that this is wrong. The EC expanded on the established endings because they are the endings.

This really sums it up. If people still want to believe in the IT, despite knowing the EC is the true and final ending to ME3, then by all means do so. Buy I don't see the point in debating it any further.

[doodiebody]

I've always found IT interesting, but I'd have a hard time believing it was their intention at this point for no other reason than practicality. I'd have an incredibly hard time believing they released a game with a fake ending and then later expanded upon that fake ending while adding no additional clues to the ending being fake. If there was something more to it, you'd think the EC would have dropped some better hints, instead of extending the previous face value nonsense.

[jijeebo]

The EC disproved the IT by ignoring it completely.

Not to say people can't hold onto it as their own personal interpretation/headcanon if they so wish... But if anyone is seriously still sitting there thinking that the "True ending IT-master-plan DLC." is coming along any time soon then it's time to wake up and smell the hummus.

[Joccaren]

Edorian27 wrote...
If I recall correctly, these parts of the SB Ship were made to navigate savely through a storm - which the Citadel doesn't usually.

It does, however, reside in a dense cloud of dust and gas which it is speculated the Citadel itself produces I believe in the Codex in ME1, though I'll double check that sometime.

Hmm, that does not convince me. I do remember BW claiming in DA2 that they have to reuse areas, but the End of the Shepard Saga is too important to simply copy the TIM room and they got very negative feedback for this in DA2.

The thing is it isn't a copy of TIM's room. It is a new room designed that to you resembles TIM's room. The only resemblence I see is that you can see out of it easily, and its poorly lit.

So if I had to guess a coincidence is unlikely. Why would a room inside the citadel look like the TIM room with that big open Space window in the back, one control panel, the same form, when no one has gone there before to see it?

It was built sometime, so someone did see it at some point. As to why it has a control panel - so Shepard can open the Citadel. The game very well wouldn't progress if there wasn't a control panel there. It is also underneath the Citadel tower, though apparently upside down comparative.

So considering which is more likely I'd still say it is that it is a picture drawn from Shepards mind rather than reality. 

Which is more likely depends entirely on your interpretation of things. Judging from the rest of the game, and the rest of the ending in particular, I think its more likely Bioware just did a rush job on the ending, and everything just slotted together as it is. Its how the rest of the game seems to have gone.

Modifié par Joccaren, 23 juillet 2012 - 07:06 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

jijeebo wrote...

The EC disproved the IT by ignoring it completely.

Not to say people can't hold onto it as their own personal interpretation/headcanon if they so wish... But if anyone is seriously still sitting there thinking that the "True ending IT-master-plan DLC." is coming along any time soon then it's time to wake up and smell the hummus.

At this point Bioware can release hour-long documentaries describing each ending and some people still won't be convinced.

Modifié par pirate1802, 23 juillet 2012 - 07:22 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Joccaren wrote...
 I think its more likely Bioware just did a rush job on the ending, and everything just slotted together as it is. Its how the rest of the game seems to have gone.

Seeing how you could only see Liara/VS irrespective of who your LI was in the original ending flashbacks.. and seeing how this was promptly corrected in the EC.. I think its clear they didn't have enough time/resources to do the endings properly. Rush Job Theory seems to be a good one!

Modifié par pirate1802, 23 juillet 2012 - 07:30 .

[mupp3tz]

EC does not disprove IT because Bioware knows better than to stir up the ****storm even further. The last thing they wanted to do is alienate even more fans, so they delivered something that still allows for open interpretation. Not to mention that it's impossible to argue with someone who ardently believes that it's a dream sequence.

On a semi-related note, I just find it amusing how everything was taken at face value before, up until everyone started getting all upset over the end of ME3. Suddenly, everything is deep and philosophical... but, whatever.

[kjcr01]

IT is the endgame but the literalists want to hold onto their hate for their endings in the hope BW will create an ending that includes a big boss battle and lots of dead Reapers at their feet... they prefer to do all their thinking with a big gun.

[dublin omega 223]

I still think the IT theory is plausible, after all you could argue that what happens in the destroy ending of the EC is all in Shepard's head with him simply imagining the aftermath of a hard fought victory against the Reapers.

And BTW I liked the EC just fine, I didn't hate it like some fans do.

Modifié par dublin omega 223, 01 août 2012 - 11:30 .

[ShepnTali]

I have no problem with IT or it's devotees, but it's pretty gassed out and pretty much reduced to chit chat now. I'm afraid we got what we got, but I was hoping it was all just a bad dream. Thing is though, EC doesn't disprove IT. It doesn't disprove that Shepard is really Donald Duck in an awesome futuristic disguise. All of us are free to believe what we want, and get our pats on the head. We're on the Imagination Express. If Shep's alive, we're right. If Shep's dead, we're right.

[Samir2312]

I have become indoctrinated ........