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Spoilers for Dark Knight Rises inside...This is how you end a hero's journey Bioware. Take note


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#176
Iakus

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

iakus wrote...

ME3 demonstrates how unhappy people can be when a game that suppoedly offers choice fails to provide that option.


Correction: ME3 demonstrated that offering choices isn't enough if those choices aren't accepted.

There are choices in your ending. ME3 did not fail to provide that.


Bolded for emphasis.

Yes, ME3 provided a choice in how Shepard dies.  With a bone tossed in to say "Shepard's dead, or is he/.she?

The point being, not everyone likes dead heroes.  And ME3 failed to adequately provide fro that audience.

Edit:  Clennon has the right of it.

Modifié par iakus, 22 juillet 2012 - 05:16 .


#177
TMA LIVE

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Didn't Rise end with Batman supposedly dead, with a memorial, only to tease him alive later?

#178
Iakus

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TMA LIVE wrote...

Didn't Rise end with Batman supposedly dead, with a memorial, only to tease him alive later?


It didn't end with a torso with a bat symbol on it taking a breath in a pile of rubble.

So, more than a tease.

#179
TMA LIVE

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Bioware take note. The real way you do a tease is Shepard being an ****, not telling his friends that he's alive, and chilling at a restaurant with a criminal. Oh, and if you don't see his face, it doesn't count.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 22 juillet 2012 - 05:26 .


#180
DirtySHISN0

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Dark knight rises is a terrible example OP.

#181
Torrible

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Shaftell wrote...

Torrible wrote...

I don't know what movie you guys were watching. TDKR is massively disappointing. This comes from someone who thoroughly enjoyed the first 2 films. It's bloated. It's boring for more than half the movie. It's full of plotholes. Bane deserved a better ending. Miranda's reveal wasn't just predictable, it was unnecessary. At that point, it didn't matter if it was Bane or Talia who did you know what. I give the movie some credit for the acting and a decent finale but how the hell is this a good end to the Batman trilogy?

I thought it was a terrific movie... It had issues with pacing and some underwhelming characters (Talia)... Tell me  about these plotholes you speak of?


Best list of plot (ahem) contrivances so far: (taken from IMDB)

1. Bruce Wayne randomly sleeps with a mildly attractive woman he just met and turns over his entire company to her and gives her control of a nuclear reactor that he never trusted to anyone, not even fully to himself. Oh and she has a freaky scar branded on her back, but Bruce don't care. She must be trustworthy because she paid for all the food at the charity gala herself. 

2. Despite being a cripple with serious medical problems, not limited to non-existent knee cartilage, Bruce Wayne is suddenly able to walk perfectly, rappel down a building to Gordon, and within days even fight hordes of villains. All due to his magic leg braces. 

3. Later Bane breaks Wayne's spine and without any real medical attention Wayne recovers fully and is able to walk again and climb/jump like a monkey within a few short weeks to months. All due to push-ups and a guy punching his vertebrae back in place. 

4. Bane has to go Bond villain and puts Bruce in an easily escapable situation, a pit that he has even seen a child escape from. He could have paid a few armed guards to stand at the top of the pit to kill anyone who actually makes it, but no. The laughably bad excuse of "your punishment must be more severe" is given. 

5. Batman shows up to save Gordon and Robin at the exact moment they are both about to be executed and saves them. Of course this was after he spent hours putting up his flamin' bats all around the city bridges. He must have tracking devices on all his cop buddies so that he can save their butts in the nick of time. 

6. As a nuclear bomb is about to go off, everyone stands around and listens to Talia's boring monologue. So boring apparently she even makes herself fall asleep listening to herself talk. And then Selina and Batman decide to make out for a few minutes while the bomb continues to tick. 

7. A fusion bomb goes off within sight range of the city and no one is affected or dies. Not even Bruce Wayne. Apparently in Nolan's "gritty, realistic" universe 6 mile radius neutron bombs detonating over the ocean don't leave radiation or cause tsunamis, and helicopters can travel at the speed of sound. 

8. Robin figures out that Bruce Wayne is Batman because Bruce Wayne is an angry orphan just like him. THAT'S HOW HE FIGURED IT OUT?! 
Just ignore that Bruce Wayne is the only person who could afford Batman's vehicles and gadgets, he has an axe to grind against criminals of Gotham, he is constantly mysteriously disappearing, and even strongly supported Harvey Dent. He must be Batman because he has an angry orphan face. 

Mind you, I don't necessarily feel strongly about each and every point but I would be interested in well-argued responses to the list.

#182
WarGriffin

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...The Problem with ME3 is they didn't treat it as a proper conclusion... they treated it as thier springboard into more ME spinoffs

DKR builds off of BB and TDK, it's themes, it's characters. This is a conclusion this is a finale

ME3 outright ignores things from ME1 and ME-granted ME2 just built a Team that barely got any screen time in ME3-

DKR treats it's villians with respect, ME3 Cerberus exist only so Shepard can have win and after win after win cause BW loves it's god mode heroes and making it's players feel invincible in thier Avatar- If Kai had been treated and written like Bane... You know seen as an actaul threat... not just another guy in a long list of guys shepards beaten. and Then the Reaper's are kinda the background -cause the Reapers no longer have thier over the top characters... ME3 made the Reapers boring-

DKR is the conclusion to Bruce's story and how he has developed

ME3... Shepard's character is more dictated by Mac and isn't the Avatar players have built up over the Years. -and let's not go into the whole Liara is shepard true BFF/LI/ whatever-

#183
Tirranek

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Loved the film but imo the ending was overwrought. If it hadn't mentioned the autopilot fix and ended with Alfred looking at the camera and smiling (ala Bourne Ultimatum), I would have personally found that more powerful. Also the twist with Talia was pretty much straight out of The World is Not Enough.

#184
Iakus

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TMA LIVE wrote...

Bioware take note. The real way you do a tease is Shepard being an ****, not telling his friends that he's alive, and chilling at a restaurant with a criminal. Oh, and if you don't see his face, it doesn't count.


Actually, the way to do a tease is to have the friends to have direct evidence Shep's alive, rather than relying on the LI's spidey-sense

But Shepard kicking back with squadmate in a restaurant, especially with a LI, would have been a nice way to end the trilogy.

Especially if you can see Shepard's face. ;)

#185
TMA LIVE

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iakus wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Bioware take note. The real way you do a tease is Shepard being an ****, not telling his friends that he's alive, and chilling at a restaurant with a criminal. Oh, and if you don't see his face, it doesn't count.


Actually, the way to do a tease is to have the friends to have direct evidence Shep's alive, rather than relying on the LI's spidey-sense

But Shepard kicking back with squadmate in a restaurant, especially with a LI, would have been a nice way to end the trilogy.

Especially if you can see Shepard's face. ;)


But that's not how Dark Knight Rises ends. Bruce Wayne does not even tell his friends he's alive. And the criminal would probably be Shepard kicking back with Aria, and not his LI. As a matter fact, it's your LI or buddy discovering your alive, eating dinner with Aria.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 22 juillet 2012 - 07:35 .


#186
zambot

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iakus wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Bioware take note. The real way you do a tease is Shepard being an ****, not telling his friends that he's alive, and chilling at a restaurant with a criminal. Oh, and if you don't see his face, it doesn't count.


Actually, the way to do a tease is to have the friends to have direct evidence Shep's alive, rather than relying on the LI's spidey-sense

But Shepard kicking back with squadmate in a restaurant, especially with a LI, would have been a nice way to end the trilogy.

Especially if you can see Shepard's face. ;)


It's not her spidey-sense.  Shep's essence is so powerful it can transform everything in the galaxy if dispersed through a beam of light.  The LI has some of this essence, so she knows.

#187
SparkyRich

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SRobson wrote...

Dusen wrote...

SRobson wrote...

Personally, I thought the ending of Dark Knight Rises was terrible. He should have died =/

Well, technically, Bruce Wayne did die. He now lives under another alias in Italy.


I mean DIE die. Actually die. I'm one of those people who is quite fond of endings where the 'hero' dies.


Because patching an autopilot is sooooooo difficult....

#188
iSpider-Man

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batman ending was similar to me3's ending; speculation for all...it did work for batman though because the end is fitting and though there is speculation we know what happens to batman.

#189
Iakus

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TMA LIVE wrote...

But that's not how Dark Knight Rises ends. Bruce Wayne does not even tell his friends he's alive. And the criminal would probably be Shepard kicking back with Aria, and not his LI. As a matter fact, it's your LI or buddy discovering your alive, eating dinner with Aria.


You're reading way more into the Bruce/Alfred relationship than I am:lol:

And the pont being, the viewer, and alfred does in fact see that Bruce is alive and well.  He gets to retire and enjoy life with Selina (the "LI" for lack of a better term)

Even if it's kind of a jerk move to not tell Alfred or the others about his plans, they do discover it.  We know because we see Alfred learn of it.  In ME3 we get none of that.  The LI has a "feeling"  and that's the extent of it.

#190
Iakus

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iSpider-Man wrote...

batman ending was similar to me3's ending; speculation for all...it did work for batman though because the end is fitting and though there is speculation we know what happens to batman.


I call it "the good kind of speculation"  as opposed to ME3's

#191
iSpider-Man

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iakus wrote...

iSpider-Man wrote...

batman ending was similar to me3's ending; speculation for all...it did work for batman though because the end is fitting and though there is speculation we know what happens to batman.


I call it "the good kind of speculation"  as opposed to ME3's


i disagree; both are bad. both promised end of the journey yet left it open for a return which is understandable seeing the money each property makes.

#192
Drake-Shepard

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Torrible wrote...

Best list of plot (ahem) contrivances so far: (taken from IMDB)

1. Bruce Wayne randomly sleeps with a mildly attractive woman he just met and turns over his entire company to her and gives her control of a nuclear reactor that he never trusted to anyone, not even fully to himself. Oh and she has a freaky scar branded on her back, but Bruce don't care. She must be trustworthy because she paid for all the food at the charity gala herself. 

2. Despite being a cripple with serious medical problems, not limited to non-existent knee cartilage, Bruce Wayne is suddenly able to walk perfectly, rappel down a building to Gordon, and within days even fight hordes of villains. All due to his magic leg braces. 

3. Later Bane breaks Wayne's spine and without any real medical attention Wayne recovers fully and is able to walk again and climb/jump like a monkey within a few short weeks to months. All due to push-ups and a guy punching his vertebrae back in place. 

4. Bane has to go Bond villain and puts Bruce in an easily escapable situation, a pit that he has even seen a child escape from. He could have paid a few armed guards to stand at the top of the pit to kill anyone who actually makes it, but no. The laughably bad excuse of "your punishment must be more severe" is given. 

5. Batman shows up to save Gordon and Robin at the exact moment they are both about to be executed and saves them. Of course this was after he spent hours putting up his flamin' bats all around the city bridges. He must have tracking devices on all his cop buddies so that he can save their butts in the nick of time. 

6. As a nuclear bomb is about to go off, everyone stands around and listens to Talia's boring monologue. So boring apparently she even makes herself fall asleep listening to herself talk. And then Selina and Batman decide to make out for a few minutes while the bomb continues to tick. 

7. A fusion bomb goes off within sight range of the city and no one is affected or dies. Not even Bruce Wayne. Apparently in Nolan's "gritty, realistic" universe 6 mile radius neutron bombs detonating over the ocean don't leave radiation or cause tsunamis, and helicopters can travel at the speed of sound. 

8. Robin figures out that Bruce Wayne is Batman because Bruce Wayne is an angry orphan just like him. THAT'S HOW HE FIGURED IT OUT?! 
Just ignore that Bruce Wayne is the only person who could afford Batman's vehicles and gadgets, he has an axe to grind against criminals of Gotham, he is constantly mysteriously disappearing, and even strongly supported Harvey Dent. He must be Batman because he has an angry orphan face. 

Mind you, I don't necessarily feel strongly about each and every point but I would be interested in well-argued responses to the list.


Challenge accepted;

1. He decides to hand over the company to a person that was part of the project and convinces Bruce Wayne that she is some uber nice person who wants to help. Note/ investing in clean non profit power and hosting that fundraiser and paying for all the overheads herself, whilst normally people who throw these events don't waste their own money.- They made a big deal out of that in the dialogue. He sleeps with her after deciding to give her control. I thought it was unneccesary ..probably just to give her some more screen time, or Bruce wayne thought he finally found someone who was as dedicated to the cause as he is and rachel was?. also, Maybe that was why Bane was extra grumpy at batman.lol

2. magical leg brace. ermm..well he is a millionaire afterall that has access to all this cool comic book stuff

3. i am not an expert in back-breaking degree's, but maybe that move just slipped that vertebrate/disc (not a total back break), that needed to be put back in place. They did have doctors in the pit afterall...and the recovery was 4 months. Oh...and his BATMAN.

4. putting Batman in the pit... wasn;t that half the point of the league of shadows return. They wanted batman to suffer slowly, just like Gotham was suffering slowly. No grown man has ever escaped. Better then any prision I know? Alcatraz doesn't count, sean connery escaped that one. Bane threw a physically broken aging guy into a prison where even he could not escape from ...seems quite iron-clad to me

5. Yh the timing was convenient, Gordon and co get captured towards the end of the 5month time bomb and thats when Batman comes back. Didn't Bruce wayne get captured moments before to get to Morgan Freeman..maybe he found out then so could act. Gordon and co getting captured at that time may not be complete coincidence...they were growing desperate and taking more risks because they knew the 5month timer on the bomb was approaching. 

6. it's a movie. if it makes people feel better Gordon could of put the transmitter blocker before Talia even started the monologue...but then it would just be boring

7. Not sure about this, but wasn't that one of those fission or fussion bomb's that doesn't have a dirty fallout. More heluim then uranuim. See chain reaction movie. The Batpod can almost outrun rockets whilst helicopters can't....so must be fairly fast.

8. in the case of Blake/Robin...his hero was Bruce wayne..because he helped his orphanage when he was a kid and was an orphan also. Then another hero comes along, the batman. He put 2 and 2 together. No1 else would have because to everyone else Bruce wayne was a spoilt playboy. 'apple has fallen far from the tree' batman begins quote. and joker suspecting Dent was the Batman

Modifié par Drake-Shepard, 22 juillet 2012 - 08:01 .


#193
Dean_the_Young

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clennon8 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

iakus wrote...

ME3 demonstrates how unhappy people can be when a game that suppoedly offers choice fails to provide that option.


Correction: ME3 demonstrated that offering choices isn't enough if those choices aren't accepted.

There are choices in your ending. ME3 did not fail to provide that.


Technically correct.  ME3 gave us our choice of war crimes to commit before dying.

Yeah... that's a tradition for Mass Effect, really.

#194
BatmanPWNS

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Drake-Shepard wrote...


8. in the case of Blake/Robin...his hero was Bruce wayne..because he helped his orphanage when he was a kid and was an orphan also. Then another hero comes along, the batman. He put 2 and 2 together. No1 else would have because to everyone else Bruce wayne was a spoilt playboy. 'apple has fallen far from the tree' batman begins quote. and joker suspecting Dent was the Batman




That and the fact that Blake is a mixture of the first 3 Robins from the comics. His a cop, like Dick Grayson (Robin I). His an orphan with problems, like Jason Todd (Robin II). He found out Bruce's identity, like Tim Drake (Robin III). Seriously if people are going to complain about the way Blake found out, then they should just go complain about Tim Drake first.

Modifié par BatmanPWNS, 22 juillet 2012 - 08:04 .


#195
David7204

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You know, that scene in the Dark Knight where he took the fingerprint off the bullet would never work in real life.

Same thing where Joker blows up the hospital.

#196
Drake-Shepard

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David7204 wrote...

You know, that scene in the Dark Knight where he took the fingerprint off the bullet would never work in real life.

Same thing where Joker blows up the hospital.


yh a few explosions would of been suffice. I don't know why the entire hospital had to crumble.

And the fingerprints....nolan must of been trying to stretch the realism to the edge of almost comic book fantasy and walk that wavy line just to remind us it's a hero movie. I don't know why else he would use that to advance the narrative, he could of just taken normal finger prints lol.

Or the finger print bullet scene was also to set up the ridiculousness off the sonar map/ glasses technology. Which also links directly to 'Ceaser not giving up his power- live long enough to see yourself become a villian' line of dialogues. Because he breaks the machine at the end-hence not becoming that 'villian'. The finger print bullet tech was a long line of audacious technology batman had at his disposale. You couldn;t just have Sonar at the end without introducing the previous stuff.
Everything happens for a reason....normally 2-3 reasons simultaneously...

Modifié par Drake-Shepard, 22 juillet 2012 - 08:26 .


#197
TMA LIVE

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clennon8 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

iakus wrote...

ME3 demonstrates how unhappy people can be when a game that suppoedly offers choice fails to provide that option.


Correction: ME3 demonstrated that offering choices isn't enough if those choices aren't accepted.

There are choices in your ending. ME3 did not fail to provide that.


Technically correct.  ME3 gave us our choice of war crimes to commit before dying.


How is Control a War Crime?

#198
LinksOcarina

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iSpider-Man wrote...

batman ending was similar to me3's ending; speculation for all...it did work for batman though because the end is fitting and though there is speculation we know what happens to batman.



Actually, they should of just let Batman be dead for sure, and have us follow Blake with these mysterious clues to the Bat Cave on his own. 

That would have at least made sense. 

#199
LinksOcarina

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Drake-Shepard wrote...

6. it's a movie. if it makes people feel better Gordon could of put the transmitter blocker before Talia even started the monologue...but then it would just be boring



I'll keep that in mind when I play a game that offers choices and consequences, all of which are difficult decisions to make in the end, as per the decisions made previously for three games.

That kind of logic is circular, no? 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 22 juillet 2012 - 08:37 .


#200
BatmanPWNS

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LinksOcarina wrote...

iSpider-Man wrote...

batman ending was similar to me3's ending; speculation for all...it did work for batman though because the end is fitting and though there is speculation we know what happens to batman.



Actually, they should of just let Batman be dead for sure, and have us follow Blake with these mysterious clues to the Bat Cave on his own. 

That would have at least made sense. 


And then the reviews would have killed the movie and most of the fans would have hated it. ME3 proved that fans don't like downer ending and I am sure movie fans (who are even more casual) dislike it even more.