130 réponses à ce sujet

[Kenjison7]

Awesome thread

[Influ]

Does Cryo Shield and Snap Freeze debuffs stack? Even so, I'd consider swapping to Fire Shield with that build, so you can still create fire explosions.

[Silky_ZaChaos]

once i get it, i will play it always, i love sentinels

[Adhok42]

I think the problem is, is that people are/were expecting the Paladin to play similar to a Guardian when they want to move around. We already have a Phantom copy and the Paladin with his shield is similar to a Guardian so people expected to be this slow moving invulnerable meat shield.

While not exactly how it works it requires a bit of mathmatics to make it work.

Alright, alright, I'll leave the numbers out of it and just explain the basic principle behind it.

Angles.

The further back you are from the enemy, the more narrow the angle they have to turn to face it. Because of this if you are further back from the enemy, you can pretty much block everything on the map as they all need to face about the same direction to get at you allowing you to block everything.

Nobody plays like this however. Unless you're a Sniper (something that is frowned upon here) people want to get up close and personal.

However this is where the danger comes in. The closer you are to the enemy the wider the angle meaning more chances of getting flanked.

So, the further you are, the more narrow the angle, the better you can block everything without moving. The closer you are, the wider the angle, the greater chance you get flanked, shot, and killed.

What does this mean? Well for one it means check your flanks before you go rushing up to that boss and plant yourself pointblank trying to block him. You're much better off staying farther back and being an extra bit of cover for your teammates to take it out from long range.

Hell you don't even want to be in melee range to begin with. You want to be in Shotgun range. Close enough to tease them into WANTING to advance and melee you but far enough away that if they try, they miss. When they do, you simply roll backwards and stick your tongue out from behind your shield at them.

But never, EVER stop checking your flanks. You're only immune to one side and if anything gets the drop on you, it's gonna hurt.

Why do you think Guardians are so vulnerable to flanking?

There are plenty of things that will break your shield in one go. It's better to plant your shield and absorb the attack as you take no damage if you are pinned and can't get away. Otherwise you don't want to be there in the first place.

Most of the other complaining I find is that people get discouraged quickly since he's not a very offensive minded class. It's not a Rambo. He doesn't just run up and everything dies. It's a very easy mindset to get into but it's not the one you should be in when playing the Paladin. You should be advancing slowly letting the ENEMY be Rambo thinking they can just run up to you and you'll just keel over.

Oh so very wrong. All those times you were killed for running up into a group of enemies, time to return the favor. *dark laughter*

I remember a match I was playing on Dagger. 3 Pyros were trying to burn their way past me into the control room from the elevated hallway. I just sat there laughing at them from behind my shield hitting them with ED and SF slowly bleeding them between attempted BBQ's and they never got close to even touching me.

Eventually some teammates came over having dealt with a couple Primes sniping at us from down below and helped me clean house. But they never would have finished those Primes if I hadn't been holding back those Pyros.

Came to find out there a cloaked Hunter in the mess as well. He never got past me ether.

Denying access to your teammates is crucial as a Paladin. The less heat someone else is taking, the more effectively they can kill. An unmolested teammate can output enough damage to easily compensate for your lack of doing so since they don't have to worry about dying giving them a moment to actually look at the situation and go "Okay, how best to take out the enemy beating on my Paladin?" Efficient killing is far more devastating then just spamming all manner of powers and praying one of them is the Hail Mary ability to clean out the enemies.

In short, the Paladin is a very defensive oriented class that utilizes the "slow burn" kill method and allows teammates peace of mind to actually look at the situation and pick the best method at their disposal to eliminate the enemy. It is not a high damage striker class that spams far reaching murder to all corners of the map simultaneously.

Overall the class requires a certain mindset that isn't found in any of the other classes which are all ether fast moving quick strikers that have the enemy worried about which direction they're getting hit from or fling enough damage out in all directions that you don't need to worry about which way the enemy is coming from. You're more concerned with what is in the immediate area with an eye out for those snipers you should always be mindful about.

You count your victories by how many times you saved your teammate from needing a revive or medi-gel. Not by how many Marauders you put down by the end of the match.

Modifié par Adhok42, 20 juillet 2012 - 04:17 .

[BluzCluez]

horangi88 wrote...

BluzCluez wrote...

I run with almost the exact same build. However, I disagree with your statement that planting the omnishield is situational; I've found the most effective way for me to run with the Pally is to first make sure I have a good team (which means PUGs are usually hard) to do all the damage, and simply be a massive damage sponge, running ahead of your team when attacking spawn zones and planting your shields, Allies have less worry about finding cover and thus can dish out more damage, while you periodically pop a snap freeze or ED depending on the state of your shields.

I've found this tactic to work best on geth, where it is an almost perfect counter to their overrun tactics, seeing as you can stop a wave of advancing pyros and hunters while your allies pick them off, and absorb prime blasts with impunity to stop the suppression fire that is crucial in geth swarming. Also helps that you can recharge your shields on everything and anything you see.

The class has a lot more utility than just soaking up damage. You can CC, debuff everything, and kill a lot of stuff if you rock the right weapon. Just standing in one place seems like a waste unless you are shielding a medic or completing an objective..

Naturally, he isn't ONLY a damage sponge. I'm just saying that playing in a manner focused on that being his main role would be more effective; spamming snap freeze while damage sponging doesn't compromise any of your tankiness!

So while he is clearly capable of debuffing and damaging and CCing as well, his main niche should be tanking, something only the paladin character can do for the team (seeing as you draw aggro while not remaining in cover and impeding enemy progress). For that reason, I use only a ULM talon to keep my cooldowns low to spam ED and snap freeze, thus not making my character a compromise between debuffing and tanking. The actual killing can be left to other characters who clearly have higher damage output potential (shotgun infiltrators, biotics).

[Ypiret]

Cyonan wrote...

Ypiret wrote...

The class it great. It's the shield that's useless.

In what way is it better than a decoy?

It can hold aggro on more targets, and phyiscally block shots. You can still be hit by an attack that was meant for a Decoy if you're behind it.

and god help you if a random Husk decides it doesn't like your Decoy, since it can only hold a limited number of targets.

The decoy draws enemies to it as long as it's near by, the shield doesn't. You have to be directly in their line of fire, which isn't very useful when you can enemies coming from all directions. And even then, it doesnt always work and you've got one less person fighting. Also if you actually blocking a decent amount of fire when your shield breaks or you decide you get out of there, you will most likely die when you lift your shield.

I just play him as a caster.

[Cyonan]

Ypiret wrote...

The decoy draws enemies to it as long as it's near by, the shield doesn't. You have to be directly in their line of fire, which isn't very useful when you can enemies coming from all directions. And even then, it doesnt always work and you've got one less person fighting. Also if you actually blocking a decent amount of fire when your shield breaks or you decide you get out of there, you will most likely die when you lift your shield.

I just play him as a caster.

You don't get to choose what the Decoy distracts though, and it can only distract a few enemies. If a Husk decides that it doesn't like your Decoy, then have fun with the rest of the mobs that were actually a threat. It's not hard to get aggro on things in this game as a player with smart positioning.

As for surviving, the shield is not the answer to anything and everything. You have the ability to regenerate 100% of your shields and gain 40% DR. You should be using it every CD.

You can break your shield with Energy Drain(or even a combat roll), then immediately replant it.

[humes spork]

The paladin isn't broken, players' sense of perspective is.

Between pre-nerf SI/GI, spawn bombers, and weapons like the krysae and reegar, players have developed an expectation that unless it's something with which they can kill enemies RFN it sucks. Control is severely underestimated in this game's multiplayer.

[Kuato Livezz]

Adhok42 wrote...

I think the problem is, is that people are/were expecting the Paladin to play similar to a Guardian when they want to move around. We already have a Phantom copy and the Paladin with his shield is similar to a Guardian so people expected to be this slow moving invulnerable meat shield.

While not exactly how it works it requires a bit of mathmatics to make it work.

Alright, alright, I'll leave the numbers out of it and just explain the basic principle behind it.

Angles.

The further back you are from the enemy, the more narrow the angle they have to turn to face it. Because of this if you are further back from the enemy, you can pretty much block everything on the map as they all need to face about the same direction to get at you allowing you to block everything.

Nobody plays like this however. Unless you're a Sniper (something that is frowned upon here) people want to get up close and personal.

However this is where the danger comes in. The closer you are to the enemy the wider the angle meaning more chances of getting flanked.

So, the further you are, the more narrow the angle, the better you can block everything without moving. The closer you are, the wider the angle, the greater chance you get flanked, shot, and killed.

What does this mean? Well for one it means check your flanks before you go rushing up to that boss and plant yourself pointblank trying to block him. You're much better off staying farther back and being an extra bit of cover for your teammates to take it out from long range.

Hell you don't even want to be in melee range to begin with. You want to be in Shotgun range. Close enough to tease them into WANTING to advance and melee you but far enough away that if they try, they miss. When they do, you simply roll backwards and stick your tongue out from behind your shield at them.

But never, EVER stop checking your flanks. You're only immune to one side and if anything gets the drop on you, it's gonna hurt.

Why do you think Guardians are so vulnerable to flanking?

There are plenty of things that will break your shield in one go. It's better to plant your shield and absorb the attack as you take no damage if you are pinned and can't get away. Otherwise you don't want to be there in the first place.

Most of the other complaining I find is that people get discouraged quickly since he's not a very offensive minded class. It's not a Rambo. He doesn't just run up and everything dies. It's a very easy mindset to get into but it's not the one you should be in when playing the Paladin. You should be advancing slowly letting the ENEMY be Rambo thinking they can just run up to you and you'll just keel over.

Oh so very wrong. All those times you were killed for running up into a group of enemies, time to return the favor. *dark laughter*

I remember a match I was playing on Dagger. 3 Pyros were trying to burn their way past me into the control room from the elevated hallway. I just sat there laughing at them from behind my shield hitting them with ED and SF slowly bleeding them between attempted BBQ's and they never got close to even touching me.

Eventually some teammates came over having dealt with a couple Primes sniping at us from down below and helped me clean house. But they never would have finished those Primes if I hadn't been holding back those Pyros.

Came to find out there a cloaked Hunter in the mess as well. He never got past me ether.

Denying access to your teammates is crucial as a Paladin. The less heat someone else is taking, the more effectively they can kill. An unmolested teammate can output enough damage to easily compensate for your lack of doing so since they don't have to worry about dying giving them a moment to actually look at the situation and go "Okay, how best to take out the enemy beating on my Paladin?" Efficient killing is far more devastating then just spamming all manner of powers and praying one of them is the Hail Mary ability to clean out the enemies.

In short, the Paladin is a very defensive oriented class that utilizes the "slow burn" kill method and allows teammates peace of mind to actually look at the situation and pick the best method at their disposal to eliminate the enemy. It is not a high damage striker class that spams far reaching murder to all corners of the map simultaneously.

Overall the class requires a certain mindset that isn't found in any of the other classes which are all ether fast moving quick strikers that have the enemy worried about which direction they're getting hit from or fling enough damage out in all directions that you don't need to worry about which way the enemy is coming from. You're more concerned with what is in the immediate area with an eye out for those snipers you should always be mindful about.

You count your victories by how many times you saved your teammate from needing a revive or medi-gel. Not by how many Marauders you put down by the end of the match.

What about score though? 

j/k

[Kuato Livezz]

Ypiret wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Ypiret wrote...

The class it great. It's the shield that's useless.

In what way is it better than a decoy?

It can hold aggro on more targets, and phyiscally block shots. You can still be hit by an attack that was meant for a Decoy if you're behind it.

and god help you if a random Husk decides it doesn't like your Decoy, since it can only hold a limited number of targets.

The decoy draws enemies to it as long as it's near by, the shield doesn't. You have to be directly in their line of fire, which isn't very useful when you can enemies coming from all directions. And even then, it doesnt always work and you've got one less person fighting. Also if you actually blocking a decent amount of fire when your shield breaks or you decide you get out of there, you will most likely die when you lift your shield.

I just play him as a caster.

Decoy doesn't have ED or a gun.  Cast ED on a group or shoot at them, I guarantee it will get their attention.

[exxtrooper]

Nice guide, will try this out.

[Prince Bubblegeth]

Energy Drain --> Snap Freeze ===> TECH BURST w/ +100% damage FTW (though the tech-burst jumps out form the Paladin himself). I keep my CD at 200% for consistent techbursts. Both are also fully ranked w/ the same evolutions as the OP.

Shield melee is very powerful. luv it. but my fitness is just up to rank 4.

[RequiemPrime]

I am really enjoying my Paladin set up.  I maxed ED and Snap Freeze. Shields for strength and Fire Evo and my power passives. Skipped Incinerate.

ED removes shields, Snap Freeze debuffs Armor(the range is impressive, and even goes through walls), and enemy fire gets denied by the shield.

Abolutely love this set up, as support and tankish with the Piranha.  Very versatile.

I would've loved to have Slam on him though instead of Incinerate, (Snap Freeze then Slam would've been joy)

[mrcanada]

It isn't a well designed character.

[Ypiret]

Cyonan wrote...

Ypiret wrote...

The decoy draws enemies to it as long as it's near by, the shield doesn't. You have to be directly in their line of fire, which isn't very useful when you can enemies coming from all directions. And even then, it doesnt always work and you've got one less person fighting. Also if you actually blocking a decent amount of fire when your shield breaks or you decide you get out of there, you will most likely die when you lift your shield.

I just play him as a caster.

You don't get to choose what the Decoy distracts though, and it can only distract a few enemies. If a Husk decides that it doesn't like your Decoy, then have fun with the rest of the mobs that were actually a threat. It's not hard to get aggro on things in this game as a player with smart positioning.

As for surviving, the shield is not the answer to anything and everything. You have the ability to regenerate 100% of your shields and gain 40% DR. You should be using it every CD.

You can break your shield with Energy Drain(or even a combat roll), then immediately replant it.

Why would a husk not liking the decoy be a problem? That makes no sense to me, they're incredibly easy to kill. 

I also don't really believe you on the smart positioning thing. Unless you're camping in the one room on glacier, it useless in wide open areas, on a team of CQC characters, or anyplace where you've got enemies coming from atleast two directions. And like I said, it doesn't always work, it's glitched or something.

It also kind of says something when you have to rely on animation cancelling to make it work. Plus, what will only save you if you've got a lot of synthetics around.

People keep saying that his shield is so awesome, but I've never seen a video of anyone actually being useful with it.  If everyone is "doing it wrong" then why don't they show us how to do it right?

Decoy doesn't have ED or a gun.  Cast ED on a group or shoot at them, I guarantee it will get their attention. 

But the Salarian who made it does? He can still be useful, fight, revive, and do objective while he has his "defense" up. The Paladin can't.

Modifié par Ypiret, 20 juillet 2012 - 04:55 .

[Marden_JM]

I want to like the Paladin.  Truly.

I just simply don't see the intent behind the class when I can do similar things with other classes (oftentimes much more effectively).  

Why sit there with the shield out when an Engineer can use decoy/combat drone to distract enemies and draw fire? Or, why shouldn't I just take the Destroyer and....destroy those same enemies instead of trying to distract them and/or get into a risky melee situation?  If I want to go for tech combos, the human engineer is the bee's knees.

I'm still trying to find the sweet spot with the Paladin, but man if it isn't frustrating as all get out.

[mrcanada]

sYn_specre wrote...

I want to like the Paladin.  Truly.

I just simply don't see the intent behind the class when I can do similar things with other classes (oftentimes much more effectively).  

Why sit there with the shield out when an Engineer can use decoy/combat drone to distract enemies and draw fire? Or, why shouldn't I just take the Destroyer and....destroy those same enemies instead of trying to distract them and/or get into a risky melee situation?  If I want to go for tech combos, the human engineer is the bee's knees.

I'm still trying to find the sweet spot with the Paladin, but man if it isn't frustrating as all get out.

[WaffleCrab]

i use a 6/3/6/5/6 build, i prefer it over yours. as i use the ED for armoring up not TB's snap freeze and inc./fire shield is perfect for cryo/fire splosions.

[Cyonan]

Ypiret wrote...

Why would a husk not liking the decoy be a problem? That makes no sense to me, they're incredibly easy to kill. 

I also don't really believe you on the smart positioning thing. Unless you're camping in the one room on glacier, it useless in wide open areas, on a team of CQC characters, or anyplay where you've got enemies coming from atleast two directions. And like I said, it doesn't always work, it's glitched or something.

It also kind of says something when you have to rely on animation cancelling to make it work. Plus, what will only save you if you've got a lot of synthetics around.

People keep saying that his shield is so awesome, but I've never seen a video of anyone actually being useful with it.  If everyone is "doing it wrong" then why don't they show us how to do it right?

Your Decoy can only hold the attention of so many enemies(there is an actual hard cap on this). If trash mobs are focusing on it, then your Decoy has failed the 2nd most important part of being a tank: Holding aggro on the dangerous enemies.

Smart positioning can allow you to hold an entire flank against the enemy.  The Decoy will not hold aggro on everything from both directions either. At worst they're equal on aggro, at best the Paladin can aggro more things than the Decoy can.

It's not really animation cancelling as much as it is just avoiding the animation completely. It also doesn't somehow discredit how effective doing it is, and it's not like it's some huge complex series of steps you need to do. You hit Energy Drain, you immediately exit the shield and use Energy Drain.

When playing on Platinum, the only time you don't have plenty of free shields sitting around the map is the first 2 waves of Reapers. It doesn't require synthetics, it requires shields or synthetics both of which are abundant on any faction of platinum.

I probably am going to make a video when I find the time.

[ThelLastTruePatriot]

kviksverd wrote...

Good guide! I think I might give this build a try, as I've been underwhelmed by him so far--but desperately want to like him. I have him in red, white, and blue...

**when Captain America throws his mighty shield, all those who chose to oppose his shield must yield....**

p.s. Wouldn't it be awesome if he could actually throw it?!?! **sheepish grin**

But I'd settle for at least being able to advance at a snail's pace....

 LOL I did the exact same color scheme, though I doubt you'll find many on the forums who know that theme song.

[galaxygrunt]

I know you can't shoot with the shield planted, but it just occured to me that I've never tried to use a power. Does anyone know, can he use a power while the shield is planted?

[Cyonan]

kviksverd wrote...

I know you can't shoot with the shield planted, but it just occured to me that I've never tried to use a power. Does anyone know, can he use a power while the shield is planted?

You can use a power or combat roll, but doing both will cause you to instantly drop your shield.

It's useful for getting out of the shield without having to go through a melee animation.

[budzai]

snap freeze is crap IMO

[Biotic_Warlock]

Paladin + 2 Gethgineers + Justicar = Invulnerable tank squad.

[horangi88]

BluzCluez wrote...

horangi88 wrote...

BluzCluez wrote...

I run with almost the exact same build. However, I disagree with your statement that planting the omnishield is situational; I've found the most effective way for me to run with the Pally is to first make sure I have a good team (which means PUGs are usually hard) to do all the damage, and simply be a massive damage sponge, running ahead of your team when attacking spawn zones and planting your shields, Allies have less worry about finding cover and thus can dish out more damage, while you periodically pop a snap freeze or ED depending on the state of your shields.

I've found this tactic to work best on geth, where it is an almost perfect counter to their overrun tactics, seeing as you can stop a wave of advancing pyros and hunters while your allies pick them off, and absorb prime blasts with impunity to stop the suppression fire that is crucial in geth swarming. Also helps that you can recharge your shields on everything and anything you see.

The class has a lot more utility than just soaking up damage. You can CC, debuff everything, and kill a lot of stuff if you rock the right weapon. Just standing in one place seems like a waste unless you are shielding a medic or completing an objective..

Naturally, he isn't ONLY a damage sponge. I'm just saying that playing in a manner focused on that being his main role would be more effective; spamming snap freeze while damage sponging doesn't compromise any of your tankiness!

So while he is clearly capable of debuffing and damaging and CCing as well, his main niche should be tanking, something only the paladin character can do for the team (seeing as you draw aggro while not remaining in cover and impeding enemy progress). For that reason, I use only a ULM talon to keep my cooldowns low to spam ED and snap freeze, thus not making my character a compromise between debuffing and tanking. The actual killing can be left to other characters who clearly have higher damage output potential (shotgun infiltrators, biotics).

I think this is a false premise. Aside from a good biotic or a grenade spammer, a Paladin with a good weapon can kill as a fast as anyone because of his debuffs and CC. Dead enemies are better than "tanked" enemies any day. On the other hand, Krogan Vanguards and Vorcha can tank better  than a paladin better because they are harder to kill. So no, Paladin isn't the only class that can tank, it's not even the best tank. It is more of a tough and scrappy fighter that can deal with any defenses and "tank" some heavy damage when needed.