225 réponses à ce sujet

[Raxxman]

Geneaux486 wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

IT is real.

Destroy wins again.

IT is fanfiction.

it's real fanfiction though

[Geneaux486]

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

IT is real.

Destroy wins again.

IT is fanfiction.

You chose synthesis, didn't you? Lol

You didn't read anything in my first post, did you?

Your first post was probably too mainstream for the Mass Effect hipsters.

[MetioricTest]

Geneaux486 wrote...


I'm gonna go ahead and stop here. You're basically taking what I've said and reinterpretting it into something I didn't say and avoiding the points I've made. I've proven my point, our discussion has come to an end. All of your concerns are adressed in the game itself, so go play that if you're genuilnelly not trying to troll.

You haven't proven any point. I asked you where the ending gave you these details. You couldn't answer and now you've run off.

[RenegonSQ]

Geneaux486 wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

IT is real.

Destroy wins again.

IT is fanfiction.

You chose synthesis, didn't you? Lol

You didn't read anything in my first post, did you?

Your first post was probably too mainstream for the Mass Effect hipsters.

I read it. I'm happy with my Destroy ending, with or without the IT. So honestly, if the IT turned out not to be true, it wouldn't effect me in the slightest way. I just think the IT has a lot of strong points, but as many people said, the EC ALMOST kills all of those points.

[The Twilight God]

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

Control is rebuilding the society and protecting the peace of your shepard is paragon, or using the reapers as the powerful leader your shepard believes it needs if renegade.

No, Control is commiting suicide on the word of the reaper. INDOCTRINATED.

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

Destroy is dead reapers and rebuilding together as a galactic community.

Synthesis forms a galactic utopia, which is crap

refusal is everyone dies and the next cycle doesn't engage reapers

Synthesis is commiting suicide at the behest of the Reapers. INDOCTRINATED.

Refusal is letting the Reapers win and damning everyone to death with the means to stop them right in front of you. INDOCTRINATED.

How are those endings meaningless? The ec dlc gave closure and provided those details based on player choice and reflects upon his/her actions throughout the trilogy such as genophage/rannoch/characters like kasumi and grey box.

Closure in the context that Shepard is disintegrating and has delusions of peace inside his own mind during the final seconds of his life. Well, being disintegrated is closure for Shepard, at least... Unless you didn't disintegrate. All the other members of your crew... who knows. No closure.  Apparently, we're supposed to care more about how some merc named Zaeed ends up than my own significant other and best friends; last seen possibly stranded in some unknwon cluster since the relays are fubar.

We get with the EC:
1. Remainder of fleet flying past fubar'd relay
2. picture of random humans
3. Picture of ME2 character who weren't import in ME3 (pictures dictated by ME3 events)
4. Krogan stuff (Wrex got closure)  Then we move into distant future: starting with Krogan
5. Random species photos (quarian in this case)
6. Stuff is rebuilt
7. Shots of dead people
8. Memorial Wall

I see nothing in here based on "our choices THROUGHOUT the trilogy": The only major choice is #4: cure or sabotage genophage. Which occurs in ME3. Compare this to DA:O epilogues which have more nuance and it's just 1 game.

I got no closure. All I got was a body in a pile of rubble and unknown fates of crew last seen possibly stranded in some unknown cluster. Hope my lover and best friend don't starve to death. Oh, well. The End.

It does not show the decisions made throughout the trilogy. It shows one decison made in ME3 and pictures of  people.

The ec dlc, whether it's good or bad, was an improvement on the endings,

 
When will people stop saying the EC is an improvement? So what? If the game cut to ewoks having a party with the star wars case posing for a picture with force ghost it would be better. Anything would make it better as the bar was set so low it had nowhere else to go but up. 

The EC doesn't change the fact that that victory only occurs with Destroy. And still has no closure.

this thread is about why it's improbable as to why the IT can be applied to the series at this point. Your argument on why the endings were bad has nothing to do with this thread.

Anderson cannot have followed Shepard in and beat him to the control console. Ergo, it never happened. Ergo, it has to be a hallucination. You happy?

[I_eat_unicorns]

RenegonSQ wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

IT is real.

Destroy wins again.

IT is fanfiction.

You chose synthesis, didn't you? Lol

You didn't read anything in my first post, did you?

Your first post was probably too mainstream for the Mass Effect hipsters.

I read it. I'm happy with my Destroy ending, with or without the IT. So honestly, if the IT turned out not to be true, it wouldn't effect me in the slightest way. I just think the IT has a lot of strong points, but as many people said, the EC ALMOST kills all of those points.

Almost? Did you watch the youtube video of bioware's panel at SDCC? Did you see the how they've layed out the different variables? Why would they do that work and then pull a 180 to say it was a dream and appease to a fan theory? This thread is about explaining why it's improbable to apply the IT to the series at this point, which IT supporters can't do, so they look for "evidence" that the IT holds in an attempt to believe IT is true when it's not about proving or disproving points in the IT.

[Geneaux486]

I'm happy with my Destroy ending, with or without the IT. So honestly, if the IT turned out not to be true, it wouldn't effect me in the slightest way. I just think the IT has a lot of strong points, but as many people said, the EC ALMOST kills all of those points.

Right on. Destroy is just as valid a choice as anything else, seeing as how it's a viable way to end the game. I think IT is interesting, and the people who support it have found some pretty interesting little oddities in the game, but I can't see Bioware ever having intended for the ending to be a dream.

[The Twilight God]

SubAstris wrote...

What exactly about the presentation makes them unbelievable? It is set up, we know there is a controlling force behind the Reapers, we know TIM will be on the Citadel etc

It is not exactly on the word of the Reapers, it is the Catalyst, the creator of the solution in the form of the Reapers. And when you say "allow them to continue" what you really mean to say is that they will continue to exist not continue to threaten

No, your utopia and space god BS is just a delusion of Shepard's. It does not occur. You killed yourself and the Reapers won. The cycle continued.

The catalyst is the collective will of the Reapers. It is The Reapers for all intents and purposes. So when it says something it is the reapers saying something. You blindly trusted the word of your enemy if you pick anything other than Destroy - Fact. If you disagree explain how I am wrong. Did you pick Synthesis or control because you didn't trust StarChild? LOL.

You're Shepard was indoctrinated, chose Control or synthesis and doomed everybody. That in and of itself is valid. To think that anything positive actually came of it is invalid and delusional. That is the beauty of it. You're still indoctrinated right now as you defend your poor decison to kill yourself because a Reaper told you it was a good idea. LOL. You still think 1 guy can overpower all the reapers or that magic fairy light can alter DNA.. because the reapers said so. And even after the game is over you, the indoctrinated, died feeling like you did a good thing. Textbook indoctrination.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 21 juillet 2012 - 09:14 .

[Geneaux486]

The Twilight God wrote...
No, your utopia and space god BS is just a delusion of Shepard's. It does not occur. You killed yourself and the Reapers won. The cycle continued.

Right, just because it's real in the game, doesn't mean it's real in the game

What we're seeing here is an attempt to say that even though everyone here beat the game, this guy beat it the right way. 

Modifié par Geneaux486, 21 juillet 2012 - 09:19 .

[Applepie_Svk]

Geneaux486 wrote...

You chose synthesis, didn't you? Lol

Control. 

You know that you cannot control them ? It was what thought TIM and look where he is now...

[Geneaux486]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

You chose synthesis, didn't you? Lol

Control. 

You know that you cannot control them ? It was what thought TIM and look where he is now...

You should youtube the control ending.  It winds up working.

[M Hedonist]

Well, it will always work as a different interpretation of the orginal endings... but trying to make it work with the EC endings just doesn't work.

[Geneaux486]

Sauruz wrote...

Well, it will always work as a different interpretation of the orginal endings... but trying to make it work with the EC endings just doesn't work.

No see there are tons of clues that IT is real, they're just really obscure and you've probably never heard of them.

[M Hedonist]

Saying Control wouldn't work is bogus. As surreal and ridiculous as it is, but Shepard actually manages to control the Reapers somehow. Now, the ethical and practical problems that come with being the sole ruler of the universe via giant death robots can't be ignored that easily... but now the topic is getting turned around.

Geneaux486 wrote...

No see there are tons of clues that IT is real, they're just really obscure and you've probably never heard of them.

As a whole, it just doesn't work anymore. The only way to get the "Shepard breathes" scene where Shepard supposedly "wakes up" from the Indoctrination dream should be by rejecting the Catalyst's options. It makes no sense to get that scene with Destroy since by choosing that option you trust the Catalyst by his word and agree upon a compromise by doing so.

Modifié par Sauruz, 21 juillet 2012 - 09:26 .

[Geneaux486]

It makes no sense to get that scene with Destroy since by choosing that option you trust the Catalyst by his word and agree upon a compromise by doing so.

Not to mention the fact that the game literally spells out for us after the credits that Shepard ended the Reaper threat. The usual rebuttal to that is "Nuh-uh it says 'buy the DLC!'" to which my response is always, "It says both, one after the other. It's saying to buy the DLC *and* that Shepard ended the Reaper threat, it is two whole messages in a single sentence.  Marvelous, I know."

Modifié par Geneaux486, 21 juillet 2012 - 09:30 .

[RenegonSQ]

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

IT is real.

Destroy wins again.

IT is fanfiction.

You chose synthesis, didn't you? Lol

You didn't read anything in my first post, did you?

Your first post was probably too mainstream for the Mass Effect hipsters.

I read it. I'm happy with my Destroy ending, with or without the IT. So honestly, if the IT turned out not to be true, it wouldn't effect me in the slightest way. I just think the IT has a lot of strong points, but as many people said, the EC ALMOST kills all of those points.

Almost? Did you watch the youtube video of bioware's panel at SDCC? Did you see the how they've layed out the different variables? Why would they do that work and then pull a 180 to say it was a dream and appease to a fan theory? This thread is about explaining why it's improbable to apply the IT to the series at this point, which IT supporters can't do, so they look for "evidence" that the IT holds in an attempt to believe IT is true when it's not about proving or disproving points in the IT.

All I can say is...

So be it.

[The Twilight God]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...
No, your utopia and space god BS is just a delusion of Shepard's. It does not occur. You killed yourself and the Reapers won. The cycle continued.

Right, just because it's real in the game, doesn't mean it's real in the game

What we're seeing here is an attempt to say that even though everyone here beat the game, this guy beat it the right way. 

There is no right way.

If they just made Destroy the only ending without a Critical Fail message no one would be capable of denying that they are "Reapers Win" endings. At this point people just chalk it up to bad writting and handwave it. How do you indoctrinate a player? Indoctrination doesn't exist in real. Similarly, in PvP a tank can't taunt an enemy player into attacking them in a MMO. So you, the players, in order to be indoctrinated, have to believe you're doing (did) the right thing. Otherwise, Destory would be the only canon choice from a metagamming perspective. This way, we have people who failed to save the galaxy, and in their last moments did the Reaper's will and are happy about it. It's not a good outcome for the galaxy, but it is valid in the fact that you are indoctrinated and succumbed to the reapers.

Geneaux486 wrote...

You should youtube the control ending. It winds up working.

Nope. Delusion for your benefit so that you don't realize you've been indoctrinated.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 21 juillet 2012 - 09:35 .

[The Twilight God]

deleted

Modifié par The Twilight God, 21 juillet 2012 - 09:34 .

[Geneaux486]

The Twilight God wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...
No, your utopia and space god BS is just a delusion of Shepard's. It does not occur. You killed yourself and the Reapers won. The cycle continued.

Right, just because it's real in the game, doesn't mean it's real in the game

What we're seeing here is an attempt to say that even though everyone here beat the game, this guy beat it the right way. 

There is no right way.

If they just made Destroy the only ending without a Critical Fail message no one would be capable of denying that they are "Reapers Win" endings. At this point people just chalk it up to bad writting and handwave it. How do you indoctrinate a player? Indoctrination doesn't exist in real. Similarly, in PvP a tank can't taunt an enemy player into attacking them in a MMO. So you, the players, in order to be indoctrinated, have to believe you're doing (did) the right thing. Otherwise, Destory would be the only canon choice from a metagamming perspective. This way, we have people who failed to save the galaxy, and in their last moments did the Reaper's will and are happy about it. It's not a good outcome for the galaxy, but it is valid in the fact that you are indoctrinated and succumbed to the reapers.

The only problem with your theory is that it doesn't happen.  It relies on an element of the plot that isn't in the plot.  There is no indoctrination, all three choices are followed through to the end, capped off with multiple epilogue scenes and an out-of-story message confirming that Shepard ended the Reaper threat.  IT is simply not canon.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 21 juillet 2012 - 09:37 .

[M Hedonist]

The Twilight God wrote...

*snip because trying to force his headcanon upon others

I've got a (honest) question Mr. IT: I rejected the Catalyst's options. Am I indoctrinated now?

[I_eat_unicorns]

The Twilight God wrote...

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

Control is rebuilding the society and protecting the peace of your shepard is paragon, or using the reapers as the powerful leader your shepard believes it needs if renegade.

No, Control is commiting suicide on the word of the reaper. INDOCTRINATED.

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

Destroy is dead reapers and rebuilding together as a galactic community.

Synthesis forms a galactic utopia, which is crap

refusal is everyone dies and the next cycle doesn't engage reapers

Synthesis is commiting suicide at the behest of the Reapers. INDOCTRINATED.

Refusal is letting the Reapers win and damning everyone to death with the means to stop them right in front of you. INDOCTRINATED.

How are those endings meaningless? The ec dlc gave closure and provided those details based on player choice and reflects upon his/her actions throughout the trilogy such as genophage/rannoch/characters like kasumi and grey box.

Closure in the context that Shepard is disintegrating and has delusions of peace inside his own mind during the final seconds of his life. Well, being disintegrated is closure for Shepard, at least... Unless you didn't disintegrate. All the other members of your crew... who knows. No closure.  Apparently, we're supposed to care more about how some merc named Zaeed ends up than my own significant other and best friends; last seen possibly stranded in some unknwon cluster since the relays are fubar.

We get with the EC:
1. Remainder of fleet flying past fubar'd relay
2. picture of random humans
3. Picture of ME2 character who weren't import in ME3 (pictures dictated by ME3 events)
4. Krogan stuff (Wrex got closure)  Then we move into distant future: starting with Krogan
5. Random species photos (quarian in this case)
6. Stuff is rebuilt
7. Shots of dead people
8. Memorial Wall

I see nothing in here based on "our choices THROUGHOUT the trilogy": The only major choice is #4: cure or sabotage genophage. Which occurs in ME3. Compare this to DA:O epilogues which have more nuance and it's just 1 game.

I got no closure. All I got was a body in a pile of rubble and unknown fates of crew last seen possibly stranded in some unknown cluster. Hope my lover and best friend don't starve to death. Oh, well. The End.

It does not show the decisions made throughout the trilogy. It shows one decison made in ME3 and pictures of  people.

The ec dlc, whether it's good or bad, was an improvement on the endings,

 
When will people stop saying the EC is an improvement? So what? If the game cut to ewoks having a party with the star wars case posing for a picture with force ghost it would be better. Anything would make it better as the bar was set so low it had nowhere else to go but up. 

The EC doesn't change the fact that that victory only occurs with Destroy. And still has no closure.

this thread is about why it's improbable as to why the IT can be applied to the series at this point. Your argument on why the endings were bad has nothing to do with this thread.

Anderson cannot have followed Shepard in and beat him to the control console. Ergo, it never happened. Ergo, it has to be a hallucination. You happy?

I like the closure the ec dlc provided because it addressed the issues people had with the original ending (normandy escape scene, starchild logic). While they could have been better, I still appreciate the work Bioware has done. We see the closure of all the me2 squadmembers as well as the me3 crew at the funeral scene, what more do you want in terms of character closure? and trilogy closure is about stopping the reapers, which we see the effects of from the ending you choose. 

And again, you dissmissed my question and my statement about why applying the IT to the series at this point is impossible. For anderson, the chasms in the citadel were changing, that's how he beat him to the control room, not the beam. What does it even matter? You're overspeculating, the conversation between the illusive man and anderson was real, the reapers indoctrinated illusive man to stop anderson/shepard from breaking the cycle. Control ends the cycle as shepard can stop the harvesting, which the reapers didn't want, hence the delay using illusive man. 

But like I said before, it would never work arguing back/forth about the "evidence" provided with the IT and it's not even worth the energy of going into every single bit of detail when the ec dlc epilogues shut down the IT. 

I think you're just mad that you didn't get the endings you wanted, and that you can't accept that.

Modifié par I_eat_unicorns, 21 juillet 2012 - 09:45 .

[The Twilight God]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The only problem with your theory is that it doesn't happen.  There is no indoctrination, all three choices are followed through to the end, capped off with multiple epilogue scenes and an out-of-story message confirming that Shepard ended the Reaper threat.  IT is simply not canon.

So basically, I'm wrong and it doesn't happen because you say it doesn't happen. Gotcha. Well, when you explain why Shepard lost his balls and became a reaper yes man I'll consider your opinion.
 
Reread what I posted. As I said, if they come out and say "YOU WERE INDOCTRINATED" it would invalidate that outcome for the vast majority of fans from a metagamming perspective. They need to keep you - the player - not just Shepard - indoctrinated for it to work. Ergo, the epilogue is irrelevent in this respect. Just because some pictures flashed on your screen doesn't mean that it actually happened. all that's important is that you THINK you did the right think.

You choose to believe the Control and Synthesis epilogues are what actually happened and that's fine. I'd expect nothing less from an indoctrinated person who kills themselves because the Reapers recommended suicide to them to.

Everything leading up to Control reeks of incdoctrination

The Twilight God wrote...

Option 2: Control The Reapers.
The Reapers introduce the idea that Shepard, a sole human, can take control of the entire Reaper Armada. The Reapers, as we have been told in the past, are each a nation. Legion explained that there were a multitude of programs within Sovereign; perhaps equal in measure to the entire Geth Collective. And that is just one reaper. The Reaper forces at earth alone outnumber the entire allied fleet assembled by Shepard and even that is merely a fraction of their forces.

“TIM could not do it, but you? Oh, you’ve got it in the bag, Champ.” Sorry, but indoctrinated or not this proposition sounds fishy. Also note that the Control option doesn’t give Shepard control over all synthetics; just the reapers. The Geth, with their fancy reaper code upgrades, are spared this thralldom. Whatever happened to the indiscriminate sawed-off shotgun that is the Destroy Crucible?

All Shepard has to do is act as a fuse between two live electrical conduits and be disintegrated. Shepard has no prior data to suggest that being disintegrated via high voltage current will do anything except take his life and leave the Reapers free to continue destroying everything he has fought so hard these past 3 years to protect. It’s quite the gamble considering the option to destroy the Reapers and guarantee victory is right there.

Just moments earlier, Shepard argued with The Illusive Man against this very course of action. His exact statements were, “You're playing with things you don't understand. With power you shouldn't be able to use” and Shepard can question TIM asking, “Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?” Yet all it takes is one confirmation from the Reapers that it can work for Shepard to completely reverse his position on the subject. So now, betting humanity’s existence on the endorsement of the Reapers (who are currently doing their best to destroy all space-faring species) is now an acceptable risk. Recall what indoctrinated TIM said to Shepard when he asks, "Why waste your time with us if you can control the Reapers?" TIM (under Reaper influence) answers, "Because... I need you to believe." But you see, it's not TIM who needs Shepard to believe. Tim has the physical capacity to open the arms himself. It's the Reapers who need Shepard to believe. They are trying to indoctrinate Shepard through TIM as the Reapers tried to indoctrinate Kahlee Sanders through Paul Grayson. This is why this ending cannot be taken seriously.

Now we see why the Catalyst wishes to imply Shepard will die if he chooses to destroy the Reapers; to prevent any notion of self preservation from playing a role in the decision. Oh, and the Reapers are supposedly uncomfortable with Shepard taking control of them. This comment is thrown in to give the false impression that Shepard is in some way acting against the will of the Reapers with this action. He’s not.

http://social.biowar...9625/1#13059664

Modifié par The Twilight God, 21 juillet 2012 - 09:47 .

[The Twilight God]

Sauruz wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

*snip because trying to force his headcanon upon others

I've got a (honest) question Mr. IT: I rejected the Catalyst's options. Am I indoctrinated now?

It theory says that everything from Shepard being knocked out and onward is a hallucination. I'm not making that claim. So I'm not talking about IT.

And to answer your question: yes.

You had the means to save the galaxy right before you and you let them die for no good reason. So, yes, your shepard must have been indoctrinated. What other explaination is there?

[M Hedonist]

The Twilight God wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

*snip because trying to force his headcanon upon others

I've got a (honest) question Mr. IT: I rejected the Catalyst's options. Am I indoctrinated now?

It theory says that everything from Shepard being knocked out and onward is a hallucination. I'm not making that claim. So I'm not talking about IT.

And to answer your question: yes.

You had the means to save the galaxy right before you and you let them die for no good reason. So, yes, your shepard must have been indoctrinated. What other explaination is there?

But if you take Destroy you trust the Catalyst by his word. So the Catalyst can't be trusted except when he tells you to shoot at some pipes, resulting in the Crucible getting destroyed? That's ridiculous. Looking at this scenario logically, the most likely thing that is going to happen when you shoot at the pipes is that the Crucible explodes and nothing particular happens after that. What makes the Catalyst's statements regarding the Destroy option more believable and trustworthy than his statements regarding the other two options? Sorry, but your headcanon is just silly.

You had the means to save the galaxy right before you and you let them die for no good reason. So, yes, your shepard must have been indoctrinated. What other explaination is there?

Similarly, I can form statements why it's wrong not to take the other two of the Catalyst's options.

You had the means to turn everybody in the galaxy into a cyborg before you and you didn't grant them that for no good reason. So, yes, your shepard must have been indoctrinated. What other explaination is there?

Modifié par Sauruz, 21 juillet 2012 - 09:58 .

[The Twilight God]

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

I like the closure the ec dlc provided because it addressed the issues people had with the original ending (normandy escape scene, starchild logic). While they could have been better, I still appreciate the work Bioware has done. We see the closure of all the me2 squadmembers as well as the me3 crew at the funeral scene, what more do you want in terms of character closure? and trilogy closure is about stopping the reapers, which we see the effects of from the ending you choose. 

As I said in the post you you must not have read. The fate of the crew is uncertain and if you pciked destroy Shepard's fate is uncertain. Obviously your idea of closure and mine are two different things so I'll just leave it at that.

And again, you dissmissed my question and my statement about why applying the IT to the series at this point is impossible. For anderson, the chasms in the citadel were changing, that's how he beat him to the control room, not the beam. What does it even matter? You're overspeculating, the conversation between the illusive man and anderson was real, the reapers indoctrinated illusive man to stop anderson/shepard from breaking the cycle. Control ends the cycle as shepard can stop the harvesting, which the reapers didn't want, hence the delay using illusive man. 

And once again, I'll repeat in my posts that you obviously aren't reading (why am I bothering?) I am not an indoctrination theorist. I am not saying the entire part from Marauder shields to Credits is a hallucination. I'm saying that in the end some Shepard's were indoctrinated. It all happened, but at the end 3 choices are that of an indoctrinated shep and 1 isn't. You being indoctrinated and doomed the galaxy is a valid ending. It just doesn't actually turn out as you are lead )indoctrinated) to believe. You don't have to agree. I'm not going to convince you of anything. Just explaining my position.

If you choose to believe that the epiligue has to reflect what actually happens simply because it is shown that is your puragative. But as I said before they couldn't "indoctrinate" a player if they say "Haha, Critical Fail!! You chose unwisely". YOU have to believe in it for the indoctrination to be indoctrination even if that means lying to the player and showing bunnies and raindbows. They would have to keep up the delusion that those 2 choices are good and lead to good outcomes or else they would be invalidated by the playerbase. Refusal is the most honest of the indoctrinated "Reapers Win" endings.