76 réponses à ce sujet

[wsandista]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Maybe they are thinking if there is no expectations then they can just catch everyone by surprise and the game will be better recieved?

So if we think the game will be a pos, and it turns out to be mediocre we will be pleasantly surprised.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Imrahil_ wrote...

Maclimes wrote...
Believe it or not, Bioware, this is actually a positive sign. It means, despite whatever sense of loss or dissapointment the community felt, we're still at least interested.

Meh - it's the same two-dozen people having the same conversations over & over again, mostly.

And I'll keep having it until everyone agrees with me.

[Maclimes]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

And I'll keep having it until everyone agrees with me.

Modifié par Maclimes, 22 juillet 2012 - 05:30 .

[Fredward]

[quote]Maclimes wrote...

[quote]Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Meh - it's the same two-dozen people having the same conversations over & over again, mostly.[/quote]
And I'll keep having it until everyone agrees with me.

[/quote]


[/quote]
I cackled.

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 22 juillet 2012 - 10:39 .

[nightscrawl]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Even when I wasn't commenting on the forums, I still checked in every couple of months or so.  More than half of the member in groups I belong to here haven't showed up in over a year. Which also says that DA2 lost a lot of Dragon Age fans.

I don't know if you can say that DA2 lost fans simply because these forums are a little dead. I'm not doubting whether DA2 lost fans, but the amount remains to be seen. There really isn't anything new to talk about, and there won't be any new DLC or DA2 content (barring any minor patches to fix remaining problems). All of the same topics keep getting rehashed: mages vs templars, voiced vs non-voiced with a wheel or a list, companion sexuality, race inclusion, and perhaps one or two other minor things I left out. I like various game franchises, and this is the only one whose forums I post on regularly, simply because I like thinking and talking about Dragon Age. Other people might be content to silently wait while they go play other games, or just do additional DAO/DAA/DA2 plays to pass the time.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

And I'll keep having it until everyone agrees with me.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 22 juillet 2012 - 12:49 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maclimes wrote...

A man needs goals.

[Maclimes]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

A man needs goals.

I respect that dedication. I question your sanity, perhaps, but I respect your dedication.

[WotanAnubis]

andar91 wrote...

And yeah, where the heck is July's question? I've been wondering about that.

Ah, yes, the Monthly Dragon Age Question of the Month.

There were two of those until this month's didn't show up, weren't there?

Such dedication can only bode well.

[David Gaider]

nightscrawl wrote...
There really isn't anything new to talk about, and there won't be any new DLC or DA2 content (barring any minor patches to fix remaining problems). All of the same topics keep getting rehashed: mages vs templars, voiced vs non-voiced with a wheel or a list, companion sexuality, race inclusion, and perhaps one or two other minor things I left out.

Yes, a black-out period such as this can be a frustrating time if you're waiting for information. We can't go into detail regarding unannounced projects (regardless of how much people think they already know about them)... and, quite frankly, it wouldn't be a good idea at this point. You might say "well tell me just a little bit!" ...but we all know how this works, don't we?

Anything we say, if not comprehensive, will only engender misinterpretations and speculations galore, along with questions and demands for explanations and then questions about those explanations and then people reacting to speculation as if it's the truth and demanding we prove it's not and how dare we not spend our time assuaging their concerns... the list really goes on. So when we say we intend to wait until we're both able to talk and until we're able to show what we're talking about, we mean it. And that's really for the best, especially for the DA franchise, even if we feel for those who are keen to know more.

Insofar as the forums go, a black-out period is expected to be dead. There's nothing new to discuss, after all, so only the old issues get rehashed. And, yes, I imagine it gets tiring to see all those old arguments trotted out by the same dozen posters time after time in multiple threads with different titles. I'm not sure if those posters think we can't tell that they're the same people, or it just doesn't matter to them and they feel compelled to make sure their opinion is heard in every possible venue just in case someone hasn't been bludgeoned with it yet, but either way it's not unexpected-- once there's new stuff to reveal, you'll have people appearing once again. Never fear.

The cycle shall continue.

Modifié par David Gaider, 23 juillet 2012 - 05:11 .

[Maria Caliban]

Maclimes wrote...

So GIVE US SOMETHING ALREADY.

Step 1: Complain about BioWare not giving us ANYTHING.

Step 2: After BioWare gives us something, wildly speculate based on partial information. Just imagine the worst possible scenario and assume it's true.

Step 3: Demand BioWare fix the horrible things you've imagined. If BioWare doesn't deny your rampant speculation, that's proof you're right!

Step 4: Continue complaining until someone from BioWare mentions you don't have all the information.

Step 5: Complain about BioWare not giving the fans enough information

Repeat Steps 2-5 every time any sort of new info come out until... RELEASE IS ALMOST HERE AND THE FLOODGATES OPEN.

Step 6: Complain about too many spoilers on the forums. Demand the mods keep out all this information as it's ruining your forum going and you might have to leave!

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 23 juillet 2012 - 05:11 .

[Cimeas]

It's really not all that surprising that the forums for a game series that has seen almost a year since it's last update and has at least a year to go until a release (going from the fact that it's entered development just now) would be reasonably empty.

[David Gaider]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Step 1: Complain about BioWare not giving us ANYTHING.

Step 2: After BioWare gives us something, wildly speculate based on partial information. Just imagine the worst possible scenario and assume it's true.

Step 3: Demand BioWare fix the horrible things you've imagined. If BioWare doesn't deny your rampant speculation, that's proof you're right!

Step 4: Continue complaining until someone from BioWare mentions you don't have all the information.

Step 5: Complain about BioWare not giving the fans enough information

Repeat Steps 2-5 every time any sort of new info come out until... RELEASE IS ALMOST HERE AND THE FLOODGATES OPEN.

Step 6: Complain about too many spoilers on the forums. Demand the mods keep out all this information as it's ruining your forum going and you might have to leave!

Gosh, Maria, it's like you've been here before.

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

Insofar as the forums go, a black-out period is expected to be dead. There's nothing new to discuss, after all, so only the old issues get rehashed.

I find these to be the most productive periods.  The lack of new information gives us the time we need to work through the nuances of our perceptions of what we already know, and to bounce ideas off of each other.

Just in the past week I've learned new and better ways to explain my preferences regarding roleplaying.

And framing an old argument in a new way might reach someone who previously didn't fid that argument compelling.

[Cimeas]

 You'll never change my mind Sylvius, NEVER!!!!! 

[Maria Caliban]

David Gaider wrote...

Gosh, Maria, it's like you've been here before.

I admit it. Once, I was that fan.

Once, I believe you made a post remarkably like the one you wrote in this thread in response to my complaining about BioWare cruelly withholding updates from their fans.

[David Gaider]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I find these to be the most productive periods.

That doesn't surprise me.

And framing an old argument in a new way might reach someone who previously didn't fid that argument compelling.

Sure. The part I always find curious, however, is the utter panic that some people seem to feel whenever a point gets raised... as if, unless that point was THOROUGHLY AND IMMEDIATELY CRUSHED we developers might stumble upon it and unwittingly think that was what everyone thought and take it as gospel. This being, of course, the ubiquitous "everyone" that gets trotted about in place of personal opinion on these forums.

The truth, of course, is that we're fully aware of whose opinions they are. There are no doubt many out there who feel the same way, and many who do not-- and very likely the vast majority of DA players don't have opinions anything like the people who spend time on a game's forum more than a year after release. That doesn't mean they're worthless, it just means that someone's better off explaining how they feel rather than trying to represent "everyone". If you're here because you enjoy the discussion and might occasionally engage a dev in your conversation, then you're fine.

If you're here, however, because you think that changing the prevailing opinion on the forums is the make-or-break way to determine what future DA games will be... then you're bound to be disappointed.

Modifié par David Gaider, 23 juillet 2012 - 05:27 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

Sure. The part I always find curious, however, is the utter panic that some people seem to feel whenever a point gets raised... as if, unless that point was THOROUGHLY AND IMMEDIATELY CRUSHED we developers might stumble upon it and unwittingly think that was what everyone thought and take it as gospel.

I'm not worried about you being misled.  I'm worried about others being misled.

If you're here, however, because you think that changing the prevailing opinion on the forums is the make-or-break way to determine what future DA games will be... then you're bound to be disappointed.

It can't hurt.

[Provi-dance]

David Gaider wrote...

The truth, of course, is that we're fully aware of whose opinions they are. There are no doubt many out there who feel the same way, and many who do not-- and very likely the vast majority of DA players don't have opinions anything like the people who spend time on a game's forum more than a year after release. That doesn't mean they're worthless <...>

That's true. The vast majority of people who played a Bioware game just don't care enough to come to the official forum and discuss the game.

Although, it's curious that you often invoke this "huge silent majority", repeating that the people discussing the game on this forum are only a tiny fraction of DA players etc. etc. Personally.. I'd be happy if there were people passionate enough to discuss a product I helped develop, offer suggestions, ideas.. I wouldn't repeat over and over again "you're just a tiny fraction". It's pointless and they're probably aware of that, already.

And for all you know, David, this "huge silent majority" could have forgotten about this game the next day after they played it, locked it in the closet forever or simply used it sporadically as an example of why today's "RPG"s are what they are.

"But there are people who haven't voted!!"
Who cares? They obviously don't.

[Maria Caliban]

That's a poor analogy. People who buy the game but never come to the forums have voted, and their votes matter.

[David Gaider]

Provi-dance wrote...
Although, it's curious that you often invoke this "huge silent majority", repeating that the people discussing the game on this forum are only a tiny fraction of DA players etc. etc. Personally.. I'd be happy if there were people passionate enough to discuss a product I helped develop, offer suggestions, ideas.. I wouldn't repeat over and over again "you're just a tiny fraction". It's pointless and they're probably aware of that, already.

I'd be more confident of their awareness if so many of them weren't constantly invoking how "everyone" feels, based on what they see here on the forums or on other gaming forums.

I'm not saying the "silent majority" is proof of anything. I'm just saying that nobody knows how they feel, and that assuming they feel the same as people who are dedicated enough to spend their time complaining on a game's forum a year after release is as silly as assuming none of them do.

And for all you know, David, this "huge silent majority" could have forgotten about this game the next day after they played it, locked it in the closet forever or simply used it sporadically as an example of why today's "RPG"s are what they are.

"But there are people who haven't voted!!"
Who cares? They obviously don't.

If this were a democracy, that might work. Someone coming to the forums, however, is not them "voting" on the game. They will express their opinions, and we'll listen while taking them with a grain of salt. I imagine that, in the absense of contradictory opinions (more contradictory than the opinions on these forums, I suppose, which rarely agree despite the prevalence of group-think), forum folks would like us to take what they say as gospel, but that's simply never going to happen. Sorry. Opinions offered here are useful feedback, and will inform our decisions. They cannot dictate them.

[Provi-dance]

Maria Caliban wrote...

That's a poor analogy. People who buy the game but never come to the forums have voted, and their votes matter.

So from the entire post you extracted one sentence that didn't serve as an analogy, but was an example of people not voicing their opinion... 
Yes, they bought the game, but what's their opinion about it? Will they buy the next one?
You don't think it matters?

There's also the sad case of many people who vote misinformed. And the sad case of many players who buy games like potatoes. It's just "give me something to play", and that kind of player certainly doesn't help profile a quality standard. How many games, approximately, have you bought in the last couple of years Maria, if I may ask?

[Provi-dance]

David Gaider wrote...

I'd be more confident of their awareness if so many of them weren't constantly invoking how "everyone" feels, based on what they see here on the forums or on other gaming forums.

I'm not saying the "silent majority" is proof of anything. I'm just saying that nobody knows how they feel, and that assuming they feel the same as people who are dedicated enough to spend their time complaining on a game's forum a year after release is as silly as assuming none of them do.

Many are constantly invoking how everyone feels? Perhaps I'm myopic, but I'm not seeing this horde of people who insist that *EVERYONE* thinks alike.

Well, if you say so...  This must be a horrible place for discussion then.

Anyhow, let's assume that what you're saying is true, why would you bother stating the obvious; that not all people have the same opinion about... stuff? Isn't it better to address the subject in question and state *your* opinion about it rather than invoke the silent majority who perhaps has a different opinion? We obviously don't know what the silent majority thinks about the game.

If this were a democracy, that might work. Someone coming to the forums, however, is not them "voting" on the game. They will express their opinions, and we'll listen while taking them with a grain of salt. I imagine that, in the absense of contradictory opinions (more contradictory than the opinions on these forums, I suppose, which rarely agree despite the prevalence of group-think), forum folks would like us to take what they say as gospel, but that's simply never going to happen. Sorry. Opinions offered here are useful feedback, and will inform our decisions. They cannot dictate them.

I have not stated or implied that the process of making games involves a commitee of players who vote for features like in a democracy. That's some wild assumptions and tangents.
The point was, which you and Maria missed, that someone who hasn't voiced his/her opinion shouldn't cry later on how he/she hasn't been heard.

[Realmzmaster]

I think a quote attributed to many people goes like this It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

It is far better for Bioware to remain silent until Bioware has something to show than to give information that leads to misconceptions and assumptions.

[TEWR]

I find the lack of information on including gorilla companions to be indicative that Bioware is moving away from what makes DA awesome.

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
We can't go into detail regarding unannounced projects (regardless of how much people think they already know about them)... and, quite frankly, it wouldn't be a good idea at this point. You might say "well tell me just a little bit!" ...but we all know how this works, don't we?

Except everyone and their grandma knows you guys are working on Dragon Age 3 or whatever you'll call it. Its not like the Dragon Age team is working on a Shattered Steel romance simulator. I just generally hate how coy the gaming industry is with in development projects, especially sequels. They're not some big surprise.

David Gaider wrote...
Anything we say, if not comprehensive, will only engender misinterpretations and speculations galore, along with questions and demands for explanations and then questions about those explanations and then people reacting to speculation as if it's the truth and demanding we prove it's not and how dare we not spend our time assuaging their concerns... the list really goes on.

Wait, so no more of this as a goal for BioWare?

David Gaider wrote...
So when we say we intend to wait until we're both able to talk and until we're able to show what we're talking about, we mean it. And that's really for the best, especially for the DA franchise, even if we feel for those who are keen to know more.

I know its likely not your purview being a writer and not PR/marketing but why not take an approach like CD Projekt. They announce their Cyberpunk RPG likely years before it'll be released with just a simple announcement that yes, they are working on it and give some broad strokes as to what they're shooting for. They did the same with The Witcher 2 as I recall.

Obviously you guys don't want to promise something and go back on it or show off something that's woefully incomplete, but at the same time I wonder how it'll work if you guys wait and wait and wait to show something off when its ready only to encounter a negative reaction that late in the game, much closer to release? At least in announcing broad strokes early on, you can set expectations a little bit and avoid potentially damaging negative word of mouth, especially since the genral tone of discourse regarding DA2 was that at the very least it wasn't up to par with Origins. So whenever you announce DA3 or whatever, you'll have to combat the reception DA2 received along with whatever new game you're trying to show. Which of course, if you show stuff that can impress people in an easily visible way, then you might not have to worry about a negative initial impression as much.


I just wouldn't want to be in charge of marketing or heading up PR for whatever Dragon Age game is coming up next.

Modifié par Brockololly, 23 juillet 2012 - 08:03 .