454 réponses à ce sujet

[Shampoohorn]

Sorry. I'm fairly sure I was looking at the scrollable mp sheet with no images. On my phone atm so I can't be 100% sure.

[Tybo]

 I've done a crude test, and believe that the listed DPS for burst fire weapons is actually wrong.  Refire time begins counting down from the moment you fire the first bullet,.  

To test this, I set up a macro which would click my mouse every .65 seconds.  I figured that if this theory was right, the Argus (refire time .65) would fire continuously.  And it did, with no double length pauses, which would indicate that it can fire every .65 seconds.

I next tried the Valkyrie, setting the macro to click every .25 seconds, and got the same result. 

I'm not totally convinced that this is true.  Feel free to debunk these results, but for now I'm going to assume that this is the way it works.

[Cyonan]

tyhw wrote...

 I've done a crude test, and believe that the listed DPS for burst fire weapons is actually wrong.  Refire time begins counting down from the moment you fire the first bullet,.  

To test this, I set up a macro which would click my mouse every .65 seconds.  I figured that if this theory was right, the Argus (refire time .65) would fire continuously.  And it did, with no double length pauses, which would indicate that it can fire every .65 seconds.

I next tried the Valkyrie, setting the macro to click every .25 seconds, and got the same result. 

I'm not totally convinced that this is true.  Feel free to debunk these results, but for now I'm going to assume that this is the way it works.

We had this discussion a few pages back, actually.

My test involved taking the Vindicator and pumping the RoF really low and the Refire Time really high.

I found that it begins at the last bullet rather than the first.

[Tybo]

Cyonan wrote...

tyhw wrote...

 I've done a crude test, and believe that the listed DPS for burst fire weapons is actually wrong.  Refire time begins counting down from the moment you fire the first bullet,.  

To test this, I set up a macro which would click my mouse every .65 seconds.  I figured that if this theory was right, the Argus (refire time .65) would fire continuously.  And it did, with no double length pauses, which would indicate that it can fire every .65 seconds.

I next tried the Valkyrie, setting the macro to click every .25 seconds, and got the same result. 

I'm not totally convinced that this is true.  Feel free to debunk these results, but for now I'm going to assume that this is the way it works.

We had this discussion a few pages back, actually.

My test involved taking the Vindicator and pumping the RoF really low and the Refire Time really high.

I found that it begins at the last bullet rather than the first.

Thanks for the info, I hadn't seen that.  A better test than mine, so I believe it.

[Cyonan]

Updated for today's changes.

Charged Arc Pistol now hits almost as hard as the Mantis does.

Disciple also looks respectable on paper now for a 0.5 weight gun. Will have to give it a test run later.

[Deerber]

As always, thank you very much for the work

[Heggy]

Good stuff. Maybe I'm missing it, but is there a charge up time stat anywhere?

Also, a general mechanics question. Is the charge up modifier on the arc pistol simply proportional to time charged? And similarly, is the number of projectiles proportional to charge up time, but rounded down to the nearest bullet?

[Meri-Em]

Thank You for maintaining these lists Cyonan

[Cyonan]

Heggy wrote...

Good stuff. Maybe I'm missing it, but is there a charge up time stat anywhere? 

Also, a general mechanics question. Is the charge up modifier on the arc pistol simply proportional to time charged? And similarly, is the number of projectiles proportional to charge up time, but rounded down to the nearest bullet?

There is in the bottom set of stats. The second set of darker pink fields.

How exactly the modifier works with charge time has gone largely untested as far as I know, but I believe it does work like that. If you only charge 50% of the duration you get 50% of the modifier(in the Arc Pistol's case, it would be 2x after today's changes).

MastahDisastah wrote...

Thanks!
Side note: when will you change the weight of the collector smg? It's 0.85-0.45 from what I know (I have it at level X).
Thanks again!

Got it fixed.

Seems Bioware changed a lot around with the CSMG at the last minute.

[Heggy]

Cyonan wrote...

Heggy wrote...

Good stuff. Maybe I'm missing it, but is there a charge up time stat anywhere? 

Also, a general mechanics question. Is the charge up modifier on the arc pistol simply proportional to time charged? And similarly, is the number of projectiles proportional to charge up time, but rounded down to the nearest bullet?

There is in the bottom set of stats. The second set of darker pink fields.

How exactly the modifier works with charge time has gone largely untested as far as I know, but I believe it does work like that. If you only charge 50% of the duration you get 50% of the modifier(in the Arc Pistol's case, it would be 2x after today's changes).

Doh! Somehow managed to misread/not see those. Thanks very much!

[blaze55555]

Towards the bottom of each weapon section, I added in a "Charge Type" stat field/name thingy. Before I had 2 different "Damage Multiplier" stats to account for different types of charge types, but found this redundant and switched over to how it currently is. Basically, the Damage multiplier field applies any time a gun has a charge mechanic, i.e. if under some conditions it does a certain amount of damage and other times it does different damage due to a damage multiplier mechanic/stat hidden in the files.
Guns that have charge mechanics, whether or not you know about them, are (or were in some cases):

• the GPSMG
• the Punisher in a way
• the Acolyte
• the Arc Pistol
• the Striker
• the Prothean Particle Rifle
• the N7 Typhoon
• the Graal
• the GPSg
• the Reegar *might*
• the Krysae did - but not really
• the Kishock
• the Collector Sniper Rifle
  
  and
• the Javelin

Oh, and the Venom in SP, now, too

Of these, there were a few different weird charge mechanics.
First to note, how the mechanic worked or kicked in alone was a strange thing; there were ~3 different kinds.

1. Sustained: If you sustained fire for a long enough duration, modifiers kicked in, and changed how the gun fired or worked in some way.
The GPSMG, Punisher, Striker, Prothean Particle Rifle, Typhoon, and Collector Sniper Rifle all have this mechanic. The Punisher and CSR are unique.
The Punisher has a special-single-bullet fired per every certain number of bullets fired (every 8th bullet fired does increased damage based on the damage multiplier)
and the CSR doesn't gain any benefit. It doesn't increase damage, or rate of fire, or any direct-DPS affecting stats. It doesn't increase DPS, either; all it does is, after a second or so of sustained fire, it starts consuming ammo at twice the rate it normally does, chewing through the clip faster (the 200% ammo consumption multiplier); interrupting CSR fire with bursts is kinda the best way to handle it because of this.
The Striker uniquely receives no damage bonus for sustained fire, it has no damage multiplier stat/function, but rather, it's sustained fire charge bonus is limited to its rate of fire: it increases the longer the trigger is held up to its stated rate of fire stat, which is the maximum. The Typhoon and GPSMG also have this rate of fire charge mechanic, but they both also have damage multiplier mechanics, unlike the Striker.

2. Indefinite: This is kinda more implied, you charge the gun before you fire, and firing only happens after the trigger is released. I haven't seen a gun like this which couldn't have the multiplier sustained indefinitely.
The Acolyte (in a way), Arc Pistol, Graal, GPSg, Kishock, and Krysae (in a way) all have this charge type mechanic.
Their charge can be sustained indefinitely, as long as you hold the trigger.
The Acolyte no longer does, but before the charge mechanic was removed, it was unique from the bunch in that, it didn't receive any damage or DPS benefits from having this mechanic, rather it was a balancing effect that hindered the gun; it HAD to be charged for a second before it could be fired every time, but in case you missed a window, the charge could be held as long as you kept your hand on the trigger. It delayed fire, but didn't provide any rate of fire, or damage multiplier bonuses, or any bonus which directly benefited the DPS of the gun.
The Krysae of this bunch was the other unique gem, as it didn't have any requirement for the charge mechanic... it wasn't even a thing that affected the gun, really, just how it handled. You could 'charge' the scope to increase your zoom level, but because of how charging the zoom level worked, you *could* "charge" it by using the zoom function to reach 10x zoom level, and hold the trigger while not firing indefinitely. This mechanic was also removed thanks to missile glitcher's recent discovery of the new way to ruin the game for everyone else.

there is one final one, and if the Reegar has any kind, it's likely this one, we think; it might have a Sustained fire charge mechanic, but testers are having a hard time figuring out wtf is up with this gun. It's all kinds of confusing.

3. Fire Delay: Some guns can't fire instantly, even if you clicked the trigger and let go as fast as you possibly, humanly could simulating a snap-fire mechanic like a normal gun ('Normal' Gun examples: the Hornet, Shuriken, Mattock, Vindicator, Avenger, Hurricane, Katana, Eviscerator, Wraith, Black Widow, etc.) they still wouldn't fire.
the Acolyte (used to; it was changed and taken out), Reegar (or so it might), and Javelin are the only guns with this mechanic so far.
The Acolyte used to but, as stated before due to the new missile glitcher method, it was changed and all charge mechanics for this gun have been removed. Uniquely: of these 3, this gun was the only one that also had an Indefinite charge mechanic, and could have the trigger charged and prepared to fire in advance and held as long as you needed it to; it also had the longest fire delay charge duration.
The Javelin has a 0.25 second delay that you have to hold the trigger before it fires. It can get annoying, especially off-host when it comes to lining up a shot and then keeping it valid until the gun decides to fire; you cannot hold the trigger indefinitely, it charges up and fires once the trigger has been held long enough, similar to how the missile launcher worked when it first came out. The reegar is theorized to have this mechanic, except it has a larger magazine size and is fully-automatic, so take from that what you will.

Now as to your question: There are 2 different charge 'types' that affect the altered states and how they are enacted.

1. Boolean: This is a term I came up for it from recently learning one of few programming terms I know; it's used in flash. It kind of simply means it's a black & white charge mechanic. Yes or No. It's active or it isn't. Guns with this mechanic must hold the charge until the charged-altered state kicks in, and either they hold it enough and it does kick in, or they don't and it doesn't. Black and White.
the GPSMG, Punisher, Arc Pistol, (in a way, Acolyte, too; either you can fire it or not, but fire delay is already kind of a given as a Boolean charge type anyway), PPR, Typhoon, Graal, and CSR all follow this mechanic.

Tangent: All Rate of Fire charge mechanics thus far only follow 1 charge type, the 2nd one I'll talk about; there is no need to clarify or state which charge type they are as they're all Proportional/Continuous.

The GPSMG has a hidden, not-known-about Boolean damage modifier like the PPR, which kicks in after 5 shots without RoF bonuses (takes more shots, but same time if you have RoF bonuses active); the PPR, and Typhoon share this mechanic, but more people know that after 2 seconds the PPR does 4x damage, and after 1.5 seconds the Typhoon does 1.5x damage.
The Arc Pistol fits in this category. Either you spam the trigger at the base damage seen ~95 damage per bullet, as quickly as you can pull the trigger, or you hold the trigger long enough, and all bullets do 3x the damage, and suddenly it shoots in 3-shot bursts. Why it was made like that, I dunno... based on the name & description, I'd suspect shield damage multiplier mechanics like the Acolyte, tbh.
The Graal is like the arc pistol, except it's pretty standard; the only bonus is to damage. If you charge it long enough, which you can do in advance as the trigger, and thus the charge, can be held Indefinitely, you get a damage bonus because a 2x damage modifier kicks in; if you don't hold the trigger long enough, it doesn't kick in.
The CSR's Boolean charge mechanic rests around it's only charge mechanic: The Ammo Consumption multiplier. Again, opposite of the RoF charge mechanics, all Ammo Consumption multipliers are always Boolean; the guns either consume more ammo or they don't. Current guns with ammo consumption multipliers are the: GPSg, PPR, Typhoon, and CSR; the Arc Pistol doesn't increase ammo consumed, it just goes from a single-shot semi-automatic pistol to a 3-round-burst pistol, which results in 3 shots fired at a 1:1 ratio of ammo consumed to shots fired.

the other type of charge mechanic goes by 2 terms from what I've seen, though I may have incidentally fractured the terminology base by adding a second term, though I can't remember which. i.e. the community might've been in agreement, using only 1 term before I came along and decided to give it a 2nd term to go by.

2. Continuous/Proportional: This kind of charge mechanic applies to some Damage Multipliers and all Rate of Fire charge mechanics. The longer you hold the trigger, the higher the charge gets. Currently 1 gun at least has a somewhat misleading charge mechanic, the GPSg; it has a minimum damage multiplier which makes the actual damage it does each shot less than what it may seem. Because of that, the best way to describe how this charge mechanic works is, however long you've held the trigger down for up to the maximum cap duration for charging such mechanics (RoF or Damage Multiplier) divided by how long, maximum, you can charge the mechanic for, times the difference of the minimum damage/damage multiplier and the maximum damage/damage multiplier results in the bonus you get.

That might sound confusing, basically, the GPSg does 45% damage if you snap-fire the gun, but if you take the ~2 seconds it takes to charge the gun, it does 100% of the listed damage you see in the weapon screen. If you charge for 1 second, 1 second/2 seconds (time charged divided by maximum time you can charge) you get 50%; maximum damage is 100%, minimum damage is 45%, so 100% - 45% means, 55% * 50% = 27.5% + 45% minimum damage = 72.5% damage dealt. Other guns are more clear and simple, like the Kishock, because they have minimum-damage-per-shot stats and minimum damage multipliers equal to 100%, so at the minimum, they only ever do 100% or more damage. the Kishock has a 100% min damage multiplier and 175% or 1.75x maximum damage multiplier with a 1.5 second charge time, so if charged for 1 second: 1/1.5 seconds = 0.6666% * 175-100% = 75% * 2/3 = 50% damage multiplier/bonus, or 150% damage multiplier for 150% damage done on that shot. If held for 0.75 seconds: 0.75/1.5 = 50% of the damage multiplier kicks in, so 175-100= 75% * 50% = 37.5% = the damage multiplier bonus that takes effect. Thus 1.375x base damage is dealt.

If you charge for 3 seconds on either the GPSg or the Kishock, their maximum damage multipliers, 100% and 175% respectively, finish after ~2 seconds and 1.5 seconds respectively, so the guns cap off, and their full damage multipliers kick in, but no more damage than the base damage * maximum damage multipliers is done.

the GPSMG, Striker, Typhoon, GPSg, and Kishock are the only guns with Continuous charge mechanics.
the GPSMG, Striker, and Typhoon's continuous charge mechanics are solely with their RoF charge mechanics, and as stated before, there are currently no Boolean RoF Charge-type weapons, so other than stating that they're a RoF charge-type weapon, there's no need to denounce them as continuous charge-type guns, as it's implied when they're stated as RoF-charge-type weapons.
the GPSg and Kishock, at least from what I can remember and think of at this moment, are the only guns with Continuous charge type mechanics; especially continuous/proportional damage multiplier/modifier charge type mechanics.

The term 'continuous' means that as long as you hold the trigger, the multiplier gets stronger up to and capped at the maximum multipliers, continuously. I believe I came up with the 'proportional' alternative term, meaning that how long you charge the weapon affects the charge bonuses, proportional to the duration the trigger is held, capped at the maximum charge duration/bonuses. I thought it was slightly more accurate/intuitive, I think.

Boolean is just meaning, a yes-or-no charge type, black and white. Either the charge duration was sustained long enough to kick in the bonus, or it wasn't. Some guns receive this bonus by charging before firing in a semi-automatic set-up (i.e. the Arc Pistol and Graal) or they are kicked in from sustained fire over a long enough duration (the GPSMG, Typhoon or PPR, for example)

Hope this helps; one of these days I'm going to make that legend for this sheet...

Modifié par blaze55555, 21 novembre 2012 - 10:26 .

[Varsis]

A while back, I actually made a spreadsheet to keep track of all the bits of information I've gleaned. It's no where near as complete or accurate or yadayada, but some people might prefer the relative compactness of it for quick lookups.

Maintenance not guaranteed, but I think the farthest I've lagged behind patch notes is about a week.

https://docs.google....d3AxMmthUk5kWXc

It's more of "How **** Works 101" for my friends than an official spreadsheet, but eh...

Modifié par Varsis, 01 décembre 2012 - 04:27 .

[Cyonan]

Updated for today's changes.

[Shampoohorn]

Cyonan wrote...

Updated for today's changes.

Fast and efficient!

[jakenou]

Hey Cyonan, would it be possible to add notes on weapons that cannot use certain mods i.e: projectiles won't be affected by piercing mods, collector SR not gaining capacity from thermal clip mod, etc.? There's a few gray area weapons for me, and I'd love to be able to look it up in your document to get it straight.

[joker_jack]

Bump for today's changes!

[Cyonan]

Updated for today's changes.

All that happened weapons wise is we have the old Acolyte back.

[iOnlySignIn]

The damage values of the Collector SMG is vastly different on these forms compared to the Mass Effect 3 Manifest Detailer:
http://userscripts.o...pts/show/137260

For CSMG X, Cyonan's form as well as the balance thread show a damage per bullet at 51.5, making its *burst DPS* worst than half the SMGs.

The Mass Effect 3 Manifest Detailer shows its per bullet damage at 94, making it comparable to Hurricane V in terms of DPS.

[joker_jack]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

The damage values of the Collector SMG is vastly different on these forms compared to the Mass Effect 3 Manifest Detailer:
http://userscripts.o...pts/show/137260

For CSMG X, Cyonan's form as well as the balance thread show a damage per bullet at 51.5, making its *burst DPS* worst than half the SMGs.

The Mass Effect 3 Manifest Detailer shows its per bullet damage at 94, making it comparable to Hurricane V in terms of DPS.

This script hasn't been updated in quite a while. I've using these sheets here for my load outs now. As for the csmg, the thing is a great caster gun. I use it on my fury all the time. Mag and AP make it a very viable gun. The one big down side is it levels similar to the valkyrie. Crap at low levels, great higher up. 

[Human Mineral]

This is great! Thanks so much for all the hard work.

[Cyonan]

I finally get to bump this again.

Weight reduction for lower level Valkyries and a 3.0x headshot modifier. Plus a small weight reduction for the Scimitar.

[drmoose00]

Cyonan wrote...

I finally get to bump this again.

Weight reduction for lower level Valkyries and a 3.0x headshot modifier. Plus a small weight reduction for the Scimitar.

awesome work. thanks

[WorgariusShadowfang]

Because I'm pretty terrible at math and will probably mess it up royally: How does the Valkyrie stack up against the Locust/GPR on a Turian Soldier speced and equipped for headshot damage? Does the minimum refire delay on the bursts keep it from being a top tier pick?