267 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Otherwise descibed as "how it was executed."

That's fine. The point is, "necromancy" is the theme and it's perfectly mature.

If the end result is anything but mature, I don't see the point.

Also, you think sexuality and adult language are signs of immaturity?

[Arcadian Legend]

It is true, sex isn't mature, at least as a theme. The storytelling around it though, can be mature if done right.

[jillabender]

EntropicAngel wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If the end result is anything but mature, I don't see the point.

Also, you think sexuality and adult language are signs of immaturity?

No. I think feeling they are necessary is.

I don't think many posters here have suggested that sexuality and adult language are necessary in order for a story to feel mature. It sounds to me as though most of the people who found that DA2 didn't feel as mature as DA:O simply felt that the style of the story-telling in DA2 didn't gel with its often dark themes.

Modifié par jillabender, 11 août 2012 - 07:47 .

[LobselVith8]

EntropicAngel wrote...

The OP sure seems to indicate they're necessary. That's mostly what I was responding to initially.

The OP edited his post 16 days ago to address he worded his OP poorly, and directed people to a post on page 6 that addressed the theme of maturity more eloquently.

[jillabender]

EntropicAngel wrote…

jillabender wrote...

I don't think many posters here have suggested that sexuality and adult language are necessary in order for a story to feel mature. It sounds to me as though most of the people who found that DA2 didn't feel as mature as DA:O simply felt that the style of the story-telling in DA2 didn't gel with its often dark themes.

The OP sure seems to indicate they're necessary. That's mostly what I was responding to initially.

I can understand that. I didn't mean any offense to you – I just think that while a few people have tended to reduce the idea of mature content to sexuality and adult language, there have been many people, like the poster I've quoted below, who have been very thoughtful and articulate in expressing their thoughts about the way mature content has been handled in the Dragon Age series.

SylvanPixie wrote…

A mature game, to me personally, is something that can boast a deep, intellectual, emotional, engaging story line. Capable of challenging me intellectually, emotionally and philosophically.

I believe Bioware were doing quite well with Dragon Age Origins and Awakening. You were given the chance to play as an oppressed party. You got to witness, and experience, first hand what Templars and Slavers were capable of. How Nobles could, and would, abuse their power over a minority like Alienage Elves. The plight of the Dalish, attempting to remain one step ahead of Humans who would do them harm for merely existing.

You were also a Grey Warden, feared, revered and forever cursed. Witnessing first hand the power of the Darkspawn, their darkness, their madness and their shattered humanity.

Bioware have however flounced a bit at Dragon Age II, but i believe it's because the game largely felt like it wasn't taking itself seriously, between the clownish colours, the poor humour and the excess of crazy people. Unlike Origins there was also no opportunity to experience the oppressions of Thedas first hand, which was the biggest hinderance to the level of maturity that most people expected.

Modifié par jillabender, 11 août 2012 - 08:01 .

[jillabender]

EntropicAngel wrote…

Don't worry, I wasn't offended.

I saw that. After I made my first post I read/skimmed through the thread. I agree with that post.

Modifié par jillabender, 11 août 2012 - 10:25 .

[Alexander1136]

 For a second I was hoping you were talking about more mature plot and banter but you just wanna see boobies which is immature... I will vote for the formers i mentioned. Characters like merril and fenris make me mash my teeth together. well most characters in DA2 did. they were undeveloped and one dimensional in my opinion. 

[Sylvanpyxie]

For a second I was hoping you were talking about more mature plot and banter but you just wanna see boobies which is immature.

Quite certain that the Original Poster edited his post, after coming to the realization that he hadn't explained himself clearly enough or correctly expressed his desires.

GG on ignoring that though:

harkness72:

It was a poor choice as an example, particularly in realtion to wanting more maturity. I suggest everybody read Sylvanpyxie's post on page 6, which articulates what I'm looking for much more eloquently than me.

It's quite unecessary to keep raising a point that has been laid to rest. At this point, the thread should just be allowed to progress beyond it.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 11 août 2012 - 11:49 .

[wsandista]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

It will boil down to one group getting the game they like and the other group finding another developer to deliver what they are looking for.

Pretty much.

If Obsidian does that PS:T spiritual successor as an original IP, I think that might be it for me.

Wait what?

Chris Avellone said that he is tempted do do a kickstarter for a sequel to PS:T.

[schalafi]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

I understand that this thread has progressed beyond this argument now, but i always feel the need to protest when people's first thought for "maturity" is sex and violence. Sex and violence are human nature, they're primal, animalistic, but they are *not* mature.

If you're intending to request maturity in computer games then you should approach it in a mature manner. Preaching for more sex and violence is not the best way to go about it.



The reason i found these games to be infinitely more mature than other titles is because they challenged me in a very adult manner. They gave me scenarios that forced me to question my deepest beliefs and occasionally had me completely U turning. They required me to puzzle through some of the hardest riddles and word games. They required me to choose between my closest friends, my own well being and the characters outside of my party that i had grown to love.

They were fueled by deep, engaging and belief shattering stories. Stories that made me turn not only on my companions, but also on my Gods. Stories that made me question my sense of justice, my morality and my mortality. Stories full of torturous horrors that were neither violent nor gorey, but things that disturbed me to my very core.

A mature game, to me personally, is something that can boast a deep, intellectual, emotional, engaging story line. Capable of challenging me intellectually, emotionally and philosophically.

I believe Bioware were doing quite well with Dragon Age Origins and Awakening. You were given the chance to play as an oppressed party. You got to witness, and experience, first hand what Templars and Slavers were capable of. How Nobles could, and would, abuse their power over a minority like Alienage Elves. The plight of the Dalish, attempting to remain one step ahead of Humans who would do them harm for merely existing.

You were also a Grey Warden, feared, revered and forever cursed. Witnessing first hand the power of the Darkspawn, their darkness, their madness and their shattered humanity.

Bioware have however flounced a bit at Dragon Age II, but i believe it's because the game largely felt like it wasn't taking itself seriously, between the clownish colours, the poor humour and the excess of crazy people. Unlike Origins there was also no opportunity to experience the oppressions of Thedas first hand, which was the biggest hinderance to the level of maturity that most people expected.

I'm more than certain Bioware will be capable of bringing the maturity back, offering us the opportunity to once again not only witness, but *experience*, the darker aspects of the franchise.

Too Long Didn't Read: Thedas is full of darkness and the Dragon Age Franchise is full of Mature Themes. Dragon Age II just portrayed those themes poorly and the gamer's sense of maturity suffered for it.

Modifié par schalafi, 12 août 2012 - 02:02 .

[schalafi]

schalafi wrote...

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

I understand that this thread has progressed beyond this argument now, but i always feel the need to protest when people's first thought for "maturity" is sex and violence. Sex and violence are human nature, they're primal, animalistic, but they are *not* mature.

If you're intending to request maturity in computer games then you should approach it in a mature manner. Preaching for more sex and violence is not the best way to go about it.



The reason i found these games to be infinitely more mature than other titles is because they challenged me in a very adult manner. They gave me scenarios that forced me to question my deepest beliefs and occasionally had me completely U turning. They required me to puzzle through some of the hardest riddles and word games. They required me to choose between my closest friends, my own well being and the characters outside of my party that i had grown to love.

They were fueled by deep, engaging and belief shattering stories. Stories that made me turn not only on my companions, but also on my Gods. Stories that made me question my sense of justice, my morality and my mortality. Stories full of torturous horrors that were neither violent nor gorey, but things that disturbed me to my very core.

A mature game, to me personally, is something that can boast a deep, intellectual, emotional, engaging story line. Capable of challenging me intellectually, emotionally and philosophically.

I believe Bioware were doing quite well with Dragon Age Origins and Awakening. You were given the chance to play as an oppressed party. You got to witness, and experience, first hand what Templars and Slavers were capable of. How Nobles could, and would, abuse their power over a minority like Alienage Elves. The plight of the Dalish, attempting to remain one step ahead of Humans who would do them harm for merely existing.

You were also a Grey Warden, feared, revered and forever cursed. Witnessing first hand the power of the Darkspawn, their darkness, their madness and their shattered humanity.

Bioware have however flounced a bit at Dragon Age II, but i believe it's because the game largely felt like it wasn't taking itself seriously, between the clownish colours, the poor humour and the excess of crazy people. Unlike Origins there was also no opportunity to experience the oppressions of Thedas first hand, which was the biggest hinderance to the level of maturity that most people expected.

I'm more than certain Bioware will be capable of bringing the maturity back, offering us the opportunity to once again not only witness, but *experience*, the darker aspects of the franchise.

Too Long Didn't Read: Thedas is full of darkness and the Dragon Age Franchise is full of Mature Themes. Dragon Age II just portrayed those themes poorly and the gamer's sense of maturity suffered for it.

I would be interested in knowing what some of the games you found to be exemplary are. Could you name a few?

Sorry. somehow I messed up this post.

Modifié par schalafi, 12 août 2012 - 02:07 .

[philippe willaume]

Hello
Violence, Nudity and profanity are just a facet of mature content; the other elements that mentioned by Sylvanpyxie are equally part of it.
The problem arises when there is sharp contrast between the afore-mentioned elements or within an element itself.

For example exploding body à la DA2/fist of the North Star does not really makes DA2 “mature” per se, when you couple it with the animation you get an inverse effect. Like the parrot add for bue plantet channel.


What I am getting at is that the Bridget Jones undies in DA:0 or in the ME3 have the same effect as having Isabella asking – “Would it be a terrible inconvenience for you, dearest Hawke, if you were king enough to lock the door and turn of the light before undressing and joining our separate marital bed.”

So it is not so much that maturity equal sex as in porn, i.e. liara sex scene works perfectly within the context and the character.
For a game to be mature, you need mature them and a mature way to treat them.

Phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 12 août 2012 - 09:56 .

[Sylvanpyxie]

Could you name a few?

The games i had in mind when posting were Planescape Torment, an old Black Isle game, and Mask of the Betrayer, which is an expansion pack to Neverwinter Nights 2. Both of which are masterpieces that i would recommend to anyone seeking a deep, engaging, story.

The Original Campaign of Neverwinter Nights 2 also offers a deep, complex and somewhat philosophically challenging story line, as well as a cast of deep, unique, and engaging characters. There's also a great deal of insight into the mindset of the game's Bad Guy which is something i relished.

The Sith Lords, the second Knights of the Old Republic game, is another game with a great deal of depth to it. Though it was on a ridiculously short deadline, so the game was relatively unfinished, the story is still exceptional and well worth a play.

The only Bioware game i would praise in the same way is Jade Empire. Despite it's colourful setting and characters, Jade Empire has the most moral depth and philosophical complexity of any Bioware game i've played. Especially the main story line.

This is all my opinion, of course. But if you're looking for something to challenge you in a number of ways, i would definitely recommend Planescape Torment and Mask of the Betrayer.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 12 août 2012 - 10:49 .

[AudioEpics]

Am I the only one who's not ashamed to say he's simply not interested in this "maturity", whether it has to do with overt sexuality or dark & serious themes?
Am I the only one who misses fantasy just being fantasy? To me, fantasy is unabashedly escapist and exotist, fantasy is innocent and pure. Sure, it can be dark, sure it can explore difficult themes, but it absolutely doesn't have to.

It's like people are ashamed of the fact they enjoy elves and dragons and want to bring "maturity" into it as an excuse for enjoying something that's considered juvenile by the intellectual elite. Why can't a good fantasy tale just be an awesome, exciting adventure? That's what I *really* want and I miss it. These days it's all brooding and hard and confrontational. I want the fun and the wonder back. There really isn't enough of that anymore, of real wonder, atmosphere and awe, pure and simple, without baggage.

[Sejborg]

The reasons that DA2 seem immature to me is:

The art style. Everyone and everything was so smooth or out right weird looking. I could not engage my self in the game because I could not believe the way things looked.

The script and dialogue was cheesy and corny. For instance alot of the banter with Merrill that don't understand anything. And banter that was suppose to make me go: "Oh lol! That was a sexual reference". It's like a friend that always says: "That's what she said!!" = Not mature.

The music. The music was corny. When there finally was something that could leave an impact on my feelings, then there would be this music that did nothing to enhance the scene. If anything it took away from the experience, and made everything seem less dangerous, sick, frightening and so on.


Dragon Age 2 sugar coated everything, and that is why I find it to be immature.

[schalafi]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

Could you name a few?

The games i had in mind when posting were Planescape Torment, an old Black Isle game, and Mask of the Betrayer, which is an expansion pack to Neverwinter Nights 2. Both of which are masterpieces that i would recommend to anyone seeking a deep, engaging, story.

The Original Campaign of Neverwinter Nights 2 also offers a deep, complex and somewhat philosophically challenging story line, as well as a cast of deep, unique, and engaging characters. There's also a great deal of insight into the mindset of the game's Bad Guy which is something i relished.

The Sith Lords, the second Knights of the Old Republic game, is another game with a great deal of depth to it. Though it was on a ridiculously short deadline, so the game was relatively unfinished, the story is still exceptional and well worth a play.

The only Bioware game i would praise in the same way is Jade Empire. Despite it's colourful setting and characters, Jade Empire has the most moral depth and philosophical complexity of any Bioware game i've played. Especially the main story line.

This is all my opinion, of course. But if you're looking for something to challenge you in a number of ways, i would definitely recommend Planescape Torment and Mask of the Betrayer.

I own all those games and have played them many times and still play them once in a while, I just finished playing PST again a few weeks ago. I agree with you that all those games were the best RPG's I've played, and both Bioware and Obsidian should strive to continue those kinds of games!

[jillabender]

AudioEpics wrote…

Am I the only one who's not ashamed to say he's simply not interested in this "maturity", whether it has to do with overt sexuality or dark & serious themes?
Am I the only one who misses fantasy just being fantasy? To me, fantasy is unabashedly escapist and exotist, fantasy is innocent and pure. Sure, it can be dark, sure it can explore difficult themes, but it absolutely doesn't have to.

It's like people are ashamed of the fact they enjoy elves and dragons and want to bring "maturity" into it as an excuse for enjoying something that's considered juvenile by the intellectual elite. Why can't a good fantasy tale just be an awesome, exciting adventure? That's what I *really* want and I miss it. These days it's all brooding and hard and confrontational. I want the fun and the wonder back. There really isn't enough of that anymore, of real wonder, atmosphere and awe, pure and simple, without baggage.

I completely agree that not every game has to be dark in the way that DA:O was. But I loved DA:O because it created a consistent atmosphere that drew me into the world. It was incredibly smart about knowing which themes to play straight and which to play around with or subvert, and it let a sense of fun and wonder arise in an organic way, from learning about fascinating fantasy cultures that felt true to life, and from seeing characters rise above tragic circumstances that, again, felt gritty and true to life.

I loved being able to play characters like a socially oppressed elf from a ghetto, or a noble who lost his or her status, or even a mage who's feared and despised for his or her abilities. And I loved that the game portrayed those tropes with a sense of grandeur and dignity, and without feeling the need to apologize for the fact that they're a bit clichéd. There's nothing wrong with using clichés if they're handled well, and DA:O understood this.


I had fun playing DA2, but it sometimes felt to me like it was trying too hard to make every moment funny, sexy or dramatic, in ways that sometimes felt forced. As a result, the tone of the game felt all over the place, and there wasn't enough room for atmosphere to develop. That's why, for me, it lacked the sense of wonder and the immersion that Origins had.

Modifié par jillabender, 12 août 2012 - 05:01 .

[Cultist]

Nyoka wrote...

More maturity would mean to me more politics and less mook killing, especially if you're a person of influence like post-deep roads Hawke. Getting out of all the problems by stabbing people in the face doesn't strike me as a mature picture.

Unfortunately this goes against five million years of role playing tradition but Bioware prides itself on being innovative.

On the contrary. Killing everyone and solving problems only with battles is immature. But politics and making hard decisions are.  Let's say - if you romanced Morrigan and in DA3 your new character somehow meet her and have to choose whom to sacrifice\\turn to templars\\or else - her or her child. Choosing sides where you can't be friend with everyone.
That kind of decision is mature, not simple killing or nudity.