267 réponses à ce sujet

[Uccio]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Ukki wrote...

I do hope you think the same thing about the violence in games too. I mean fade to black and all that, right?! Because if sex is not a mature thing so neither is violence. DA romances do need a gigantic improvement, in that I agree.

Violence in RPG that is focused on conflict and combat is naturally expected. Hack and slash has been the core of RPG games since forever. The amount of gore they are able to show, determines the game's rating. However, romance can be played out purely with interesting dialogues - do people really want pixelated nudity in a video game? Even DA2 scenes were so  cringe worthy, while Witcher 2 was the worst offender of all.

What is with people who think beheading someone and reveling in the blood shover in a game is cool, nice and normal but pixelated boob is somehow ohnoes omg boooooooooooooooooooob! and I have a serious brain injury seeing it? I mean come on, you can´t seriously claim that violence itself is somewhat natural experience. So violence has been in games from the dawn of time, how does that make it natural? If you claim it is part of human nature so the same goes with sex and reproduction.

Must be american thing. Offender? Seriously?

Modifié par Ukki, 24 juillet 2012 - 10:04 .

[PhillyB]

Ukki wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

Ukki wrote...

I do hope you think the same thing about the violence in games too. I mean fade to black and all that, right?! Because if sex is not a mature thing so neither is violence. DA romances do need a gigantic improvement, in that I agree.

Violence in RPG that is focused on conflict and combat is naturally expected. Hack and slash has been the core of RPG games since forever. The amount of gore they are able to show, determines the game's rating. However, romance can be played out purely with interesting dialogues - do people really want pixelated nudity in a video game? Even DA2 scenes were so  cringe worthy, while Witcher 2 was the worst offender of all.

What is with people who think beheading someone and reveing the the blood shover in a game is cool, nice and normal but pixelated boob is somehow ohnoes omg boooooooooooooooooooob! and I have a serious brain injury seeing it? I mean come on, you can´t seriously claim that violence itself is somewhat natural experience. So violence has been in games from the dawn of time, how does that make it natural? If you claim it is part of human nature so the same goes with sex and reproduction.

Must be american thing. Offender? Seriously?

I tend to agree. Then again, are you suggesting violence isn't a natural occurrence?

[Uccio]

PhillyB wrote...

I tend to agree. Then again, are you suggesting violence isn't a natural occurrence?

Well, there is unfortunately violence in some peoples life yes but it does not make it natural by all means. We can live our whole lives happily without violence (if we are lucky) but without love/sex/reproduction in our lives we are much poorer. So yes, violence is not natural though it is present. And no, The Circle Of Life does not need random violence in it. Animals "use" violence towards each other but not for the sake of violence but for their own survival.

Modifié par Ukki, 24 juillet 2012 - 10:03 .

[AkiKishi]

Ukki wrote...
What is with people who think beheading someone and reveling in the blood shover in a game is cool, nice and normal but pixelated boob is somehow ohnoes omg boooooooooooooooooooob! and I have a serious brain injury seeing it? I mean come on, you can´t seriously claim that violence itself is somewhat natural experience. So violence has been in games from the dawn of time, how does that make it natural? If you claim it is part of human nature so the same goes with sex and reproduction.

Must be american thing. Offender? Seriously?

Violence is natural, but then so is sex.

There does seem to be a bit of a US/EU split on this. As well as sugar coating in general.

[Kidd]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Violence is natural, but then so is sex.

There does seem to be a bit of a US/EU split on this. As well as sugar coating in general.

Colour this Swede American then Sex indeed is natural, and I would by no means desire a typical little girl's romance film that acts as if sex didn't exist. I just don't see what benefit seeing nudity in that manner brings to a romance scene. The pillow talk with Merrill felt a lot more intimate to me than any of the rendered sex scenes of games past, for instance. I knew they were going to have sex before the fade to black, I know that they had sex afterwards, and I got to define how my character reacted to what had happened just before while in a very intimate situation etc. That was great.

Though, in the end, I suppose I wouldn't have felt I was cheated out of my money if I had seen a tasteful nude scene with my Hawke and Merrill in between the two scenes. They'd be wasted resources for me, but it's not like they'd ruin the romance even though I prefer implying over showing. Plenty of content in these games are wasted resources to me and I believe pretty much every one feels the same way, albeit about different portions of the game.

[Maclimes]

Let me simplify this entire argument:

First, write a good, interesting story with lots of detail.

If that story requires sex and/or violence, include them. Don't be shy, don't worry about ratings and censorship: Just focus on a good story.
If that story does not need sex and/or violence, leave them out. Nothing is more pathetic than shoe-horned in nudity and gore: Just focus on a good story.

In short, do what is needed to tell the tale.

[brushyourteeth]

Ukki wrote...
What is with people who think beheading someone and reveling in the blood shover in a game is cool, nice and normal but pixelated boob is somehow ohnoes omg boooooooooooooooooooob! and I have a serious brain injury seeing it? I mean come on, you can´t seriously claim that violence itself is somewhat natural experience. So violence has been in games from the dawn of time, how does that make it natural? If you claim it is part of human nature so the same goes with sex and reproduction.

Must be american thing. Offender? Seriously?

Sex is definitely a beautiful part of human nature. Watching other people have it though, isn't. Can't blame people for saying "do not want." If they feel more comfortable with hacking down fictional bad guys than watching a sex scene, all that says to me is that they like to play video games.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 24 juillet 2012 - 03:09 .

[Uccio]

I totally agree with Maclimes here. I do not "demand" nudity or sexual act in a game. But, if it goes well with the story then its ok. I had no problem with ME1/TW2 scenes though some of the people seem to have major overload over them. Well made, good. Bad made, meh. No sex at all, ok. The pillow talk and all other aspects in romance should be improved in my opinion, visual sex or not.

Modifié par Ukki, 24 juillet 2012 - 03:48 .

[brushyourteeth]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Violence is natural, but then so is sex.

There does seem to be a bit of a US/EU split on this. As well as sugar coating in general.

Colour this Swede American then Sex indeed is natural, and I would by no means desire a typical little girl's romance film that acts as if sex didn't exist. I just don't see what benefit seeing nudity in that manner brings to a romance scene. The pillow talk with Merrill felt a lot more intimate to me than any of the rendered sex scenes of games past, for instance. I knew they were going to have sex before the fade to black, I know that they had sex afterwards, and I got to define how my character reacted to what had happened just before while in a very intimate situation etc. That was great.

Though, in the end, I suppose I wouldn't have felt I was cheated out of my money if I had seen a tasteful nude scene with my Hawke and Merrill in between the two scenes. They'd be wasted resources for me, but it's not like they'd ruin the romance even though I prefer implying over showing. Plenty of content in these games are wasted resources to me and I believe pretty much every one feels the same way, albeit about different portions of the game.

I imagine that first night with Merrill actually involved a lot of stammering, apologizing, and "This isn't sexy, is it? Let's start over." moments. That's kind of my head-canon, anyway. I'm sure it all worked out great in the end, but maybe less embarassing for us not to see it. 

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 24 juillet 2012 - 04:45 .

[Cultist]

Maclimes wrote...
If that story does not need sex and/or violence, leave them out. Nothing is more pathetic than shoe-horned in nudity and gore: Just focus on a good story.
In short, do what is needed to tell the tale.

This. I still shudder when I remember Red Alert 3 when Electronic Arts hired a bunch of silicon chicks and a steroid-pumped wrestling actor, goddamn, wrestling(!!!) actor for cuscenes! All the while game suffered from undeveloped MP, lack of support and miriad other problems. Fans screamed about all that wasted money but to no avail.
Funny parallel with DA2 - EA tried to attract more people with half-naked models in cutscenes, but it turned out that players were more interested in actual gameplay and balance, than ******.

[Maclimes]

Cultist wrote...

it turned out that players were more interested in actual gameplay and balance, than ******.

*gasp* It's like we're not all just drooling caricatures.

[Cultist]

Maclimes wrote...
*gasp* It's like we're not all just drooling caricatures.

1. Must attract new playerbase
2. Teenagers are the most numerous audience.
3. Teenagers like chicks with huge ******!
4. Add them to strategy game.
5. ?????
6. PROFIT!
Who are we to argue with Electronic Arts' management?

[Maclimes]

Cultist wrote...

Who are we to argue with Electronic Arts' management?

I'm the one who decides what games my kids will be playing, and paying for, not to mention my own games. That makes me responsible for the buying habits of 3 out of the 4 people in my household. (I have no control over my wife. No one does).

[Fallstar]

Maclimes wrote...

Let me simplify this entire argument:

First, write a good, interesting story with lots of detail.

If that story requires sex and/or violence, include them. Don't be shy, don't worry about ratings and censorship: Just focus on a good story.
If that story does not need sex and/or violence, leave them out. Nothing is more pathetic than shoe-horned in nudity and gore: Just focus on a good story.

In short, do what is needed to tell the tale.

Basically this, plus

Being able to cut people into little pieces didn't add to DA2. All the gore they need is a little blood when you kill someone.

On the other hand they should show skin in the sex scenes. Nothing explicit, it's perfectly possible to show two people being naked without showing explicit details, films do it all the time.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Ukki wrote...
What is with people who think beheading someone and reveling in the blood shover in a game is cool, nice and normal but pixelated boob is somehow ohnoes omg boooooooooooooooooooob! and I have a serious brain injury seeing it? I mean come on, you can´t seriously claim that violence itself is somewhat natural experience. So violence has been in games from the dawn of time, how does that make it natural? If you claim it is part of human nature so the same goes with sex and reproduction.

Must be american thing. Offender? Seriously?

Sex is definitely a beautiful part of human nature. Watching other people have it though, isn't. Can't blame people for saying "do not want." If they feel more comfortable with hacking down fictional bad guys than watching a sex scene, all that says to me is that they like to play video games.

Pretty much.

[philippe willaume]

Maclimes wrote...

Let me simplify this entire argument:

First, write a good, interesting story with lots of detail.

If that story requires sex and/or violence, include them. Don't be shy, don't worry about ratings and censorship: Just focus on a good story.
If that story does not need sex and/or violence, leave them out. Nothing is more pathetic than shoe-horned in nudity and gore: Just focus on a good story.

In short, do what is needed to tell the tale.

well said

[Realmzmaster]

I do not understand in one thread gamers are complaining that Hawke is to set of a protagonist and that they could head canon the warden better which is fine. In this thread you want to see nudity, the characters engaged in sexual activity or whatever, but you have problems with the fade to black. This is the perfect opportunity to headcanon anything you want to fill in that blank space. Imagine Hawke either mundane or freaky.

I am with Maclimes. It all depends on the story. Combat has always been at the heart of rpgs whether it is computerized or p n p. Blood and gore were not always depicted in combat. That was thrown in to make it more realistic. Combat is a necessary evil, blood and gore is not.

[wsandista]

^ Not me. I favor both headcanon and fadetoblack. However, if they are going to show a risque scene, go all or nothing.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

I think having it 'implied' like in ME2, is fine. I don't think it needs to be like Witcher 2.

[_xkg_]

I don't mind seeing a woman naked in a game or anything else really (beautiful women are a work of art) but I don't want to see a man naked. Nope. Don't want to see that at all. Keep it out of the game. I turned The Witcher 2 off when Geralt walked on and bent over and we saw his smelly bumhole. Keep bumholes out of my game Cdkproject. I also turned The Witcher 2 off again when Geralt took his clothing off at the end and started flinging his willy about for no reason.

Other than Geralt's strange habits of striping down naked and running about with that monster dangling about between his legs (o_O), I think he's a pretty cool guy.

Maybe I'm bias because I'm a man myself though. So I don't want to see another man nude. The man's body is disgusting.

Modifié par _xkg_, 25 juillet 2012 - 08:24 .

[Zkyire]

If it's to be done, they should be done well - or not at all.

[Crypticqa]

_xkg_ wrote...

I don't mind seeing a woman naked in a game or anything else really (beautiful women are a work of art) but I don't want to see a man naked. Nope. Don't want to see that at all. Keep it out of the game. I turned The Witcher 2 off when Geralt walked on and bent over and we saw his smelly bumhole. Keep bumholes out of my game Cdkproject. I also turned The Witcher 2 off again when Geralt took his clothing off at the end and started flinging his willy about for no reason.

Other than Geralt's strange habits of striping down naked and running about with that monster dangling about between his legs (o_O), I think he's a pretty cool guy.

Maybe I'm bias because I'm a man myself though. So I don't want to see another man nude. The man's body is disgusting.

No. Both or none

[Fallstar]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I do not understand in one thread gamers are complaining that Hawke is to set of a protagonist and that they could head canon the warden better which is fine. In this thread you want to see nudity, the characters engaged in sexual activity or whatever, but you have problems with the fade to black. This is the perfect opportunity to headcanon anything you want to fill in that blank space. Imagine Hawke either mundane or freaky.

I am with Maclimes. It all depends on the story. Combat has always been at the heart of rpgs whether it is computerized or p n p. Blood and gore were not always depicted in combat. That was thrown in to make it more realistic. Combat is a necessary evil, blood and gore is not.

Fade to black is fine. I would prefer a fade to black after the initial kiss followed by the afterglow scene, or non explicit nudity, rather than what we have at the moment. Which basically amounts to a make out session. I'm not a big fan of how the romance scenes were done in either DA game personally.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 25 juillet 2012 - 10:15 .

[mupp3tz]

First of all, there's a clear difference in business philosophy between CDPR and Bioware.

CDPR is in the business of creating games targeted towards adults and have explicitly said that they are well aware that their games are not for everyone and that it's okay. It's a niche company who makes niche games. Though undoubtedly successful, they are far from capturing the same amount of sales as mainstream games as a result. Their envisioned path to success is by fully dominating a specific section of the market.

Bioware, on the other hand, is a company that focuses on maximizing capital and, as a result, need to be wary of alienating players. Simply put, they want their game to be bought by as many people as possibly, while still being able to market themselves to their desired age group -- realistically... 15-30 year olds. Not to mention the whole ME1 "ZOMG ALIEN SEX" scandal with Fox News. Their envisioned path to success is to try and spread sales out as much as possible.

Second, the M rating is tagged on for a variety of reasons other than nudity. It's also warranted by subject matter, violence, substance abuse, etc. I think a mistake you're making is assuming that an M rating equates to the promise of "edgy" or "gritty." Which is far from the truth. The entire purpose of ratings by the MPAA, ESRB, etc. is to advise the consumer. There are thousands of R rated films out there that don't have the complete package of nudity, drugs, and violence... but are obviously very inappropriate for a minor to watch.

Third, CDPR is a Polish company, whereas Bioware is a Canadian company. There is a stark difference in what is considered taboo in both regions. Europeans are more accepting of sex than Americans/Canadians, while A/C is more accepting of violence. As a result, European media is more comfortable depicting nudity and sexuality, while we end up with decapitations, mass murder, and BIG EXPLOSIONS!

Essentially, these are two different companies with different approaches to success. They make different products and have different opinions on what warrants a good game -- i.e. what needs to be included, is acceptable content, can be glazed over, etc.

The fact that they share the same rating doesn't really mean much of anything.

[Cultist]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

First of all, there's a clear difference in business philosophy between CDPR and Bioware.

CDPR
is in the business of creating games targeted towards adults and have
explicitly said that they are well aware that their games are not for
everyone and that it's okay. It's a niche company who makes niche
games. Though undoubtedly successful, they are far from capturing the
same amount of sales as mainstream games as a result. Their envisioned
path to success is by fully dominating a specific section of the market.

Bioware,
on the other hand, is a company that focuses on maximizing capital and,
as a result, need to be wary of alienating players. Simply put, they
want their game to be bought by as many people as possibly, while still
being able to market themselves to their desired age group --
realistically... 15-30 year olds. Not to mention the whole ME1 "ZOMG
ALIEN SEX" scandal with Fox News. Their envisioned path to success is
to try and spread sales out as much as possible.

Dragon Age 2
Global First Ten Weeks (Units)

14th May 2011
Week: 10
Total: 266,439
Source.

Witcher 2
Global First Ten Weeks (Units)
23rd July 2011
Week: 10
589,819
Source.
As
we can see, 15 year olds failed to become a profitable target group and
overall more mature Witcher sold twice as better than DA2.

Modifié par Cultist, 26 juillet 2012 - 08:10 .