267 réponses à ce sujet

[thats1evildude]

That's exclusively sales of PC units. Witcher 2 didn't get ported over to the XBox 360 until a year later. Dragon Age 2 was released on multiple platforms at the same time. Why does this have an effect? If a gamer played on both console and PC, he might buy the former and not the latter.

Of course, Witcher 2 likely did outsell Dragon Age 2 in the long run, as the latter suffered from bad word of mouth. But really, what does that mean?

"The Witcher 2 sold well, and it has nude sex scenes in it, so therefore DA3 should have nude sex scenes in it to sell well." That's a faulty line of reasoning. What you should be asking yourself is whether nude sex scenes are appropriate for the Dragon Age universe.

The Witcher universe has a considerably different feel than the Dragon Age universe. It's a fair bit grittier and more graphic. It's entirely appropriate for Geralt to have raunchy sex every second attractive female he comes across because he's simply that type of hero and it's that kind of fictional universe.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 26 juillet 2012 - 10:17 .

[smallwhippet]

I find the representation of 'mature' themes, sex and nudity etc, in the DA universe perfectly sufficient. I have no desire to watch uncanny naked cavortings.
DA2 dealt with this better than DA:O: it didn't make me laugh or cringe.
Less is sometimes more...

[TheRealJayDee]

If the story you want to tell includes violence and sex you should make it work properly. Depending of course on how seriously you take your world and your story and how seriously you want your players to take it.

Sex/romance scenes: decide how important each one is for the story and consider the respective characters involved, and then either make it ME tastefully/subtle (1 and partly 3), TW2 explicit or fitting fade to blacks. Mixing them easily crosses ove in comedic/caricature territory. No 'putting on underwear for sex', no 'showering with underwear/fully clothed'. I don't need to see virtual characters ****ing, but if you include such elements be sure at least to know how you want to deal with them.

As for violence: I'll never get how the depiction of extreme violence is in any way 'more okay' than seeing a naked human being. But whatever. If you do it, do it right. DA:O/ME trilogy weren't perfect in how they handled the violence, but to me it wasn't bad and for most parts didn't clash with the setting. DA2 felt ridiculous.

[limpan21]

As a european (Swede) i find it amazingly ironic that you have people exploding in fountains of blood (something frowned on in europe) in pretty much every type of media in the US,but showing any form of nudity is somehow tabu, it really blows my mind away.

[Fallstar]

limpan21 wrote...

As a european (Swede) i find it amazingly ironic that you have people exploding in fountains of blood (something frowned on in europe) in pretty much every type of media in the US,but showing any form of nudity is somehow tabu, it really blows my mind away.

What are you talking about? Killing people is NP, but showing some skin, never mind sex??? Oh god the horror...

When that statement applies, you know things are more than a bit ****ed up.

[Realmzmaster]

What we have regarding sex and violence in different regions of the world are double standards. What I gather from the posts on this thread is that in the US/Canada it is okay to show blood and gore but not skin, but in other countries skin is okay but not blood and gore.

Maybe it me but if someone gets stabbed by a sword one of two actions happen depending on the type of blade: the person bleeds out or the skin closes around the wound and the person bleeds internally. If the sword (or other pointy weapon) hits a major artery there is a bleed out and the blood can gush which is realistic. This blood and gore would be tone down considerably in countries other than the US/Canada, but no one finds that mind blowing which shows different standards.

[brushyourteeth]

DuskWarden wrote...

limpan21 wrote...

As a european (Swede) i find it amazingly ironic that you have people exploding in fountains of blood (something frowned on in europe) in pretty much every type of media in the US,but showing any form of nudity is somehow tabu, it really blows my mind away.

What are you talking about? Killing people is NP, but showing some skin, never mind sex??? Oh god the horror...

When that statement applies, you know things are more than a bit ****ed up.

My understanding is that one philosophy isn't necessarily better than the other - they're just different. One can't really judge another culture - you're always going to be looking at it through the lens of your own cultural upbringing, which will most always be "better." It's better maybe just to say "That's what I'll get from North America." or "That's what they make in Europe." And the truth is there are plenty of Americans who would love to see more nudity in DA. Not less violence - just more nudity. There are even some who think a game doesn't deserve an M rating unless it pushes every boundary possible - what the developers want to do with their game is a non-issue.

Maybe DAII goes a little far with all the blood, but there is at least a toggle, and it's done in rather a cartoonish way. All things considered, the violence isn't nearly as graphic as it could have been - for instance, we never see that crazy mage hack women apart and then sew them back together. If the game had gone for that kind of "realism" it would have been a no-buy for this player. Similarly, it's enough for me to know that sex took place behind the scenes - I don't need the camera to linger on the act. It's just not something I'm very interested in. Do I find it distasteful? I guess I find the demand for nudity distasteful, since it really doesn't do anything to enrich the story, and it would in fact take time and resources away from projects that would make for a more well-rounded game (by my standards - I won't project that opinion on anyone else).

That said, I appreciate that DA deals with the darker side of humanity. I think that's what the story is ultimately about - the darkspawn are kind of a metaphor for human depravity. The mages are capable of great things, but they're always having to fight temptation and deny any desire for more power. Others struggle with their fear and prejudice toward them, often abusing them for little reason. Slavers make a quick buck out of destroying people's lives. Men and women prostitute themselves, often (at least in Lowtown) out of desperation. Banditry and murder happen for seemingly no reason. Rape happens (I have a special hatred for rape - but I see how it's a valuable plot choice). And then in the midst of all that, friendship and love and courage can find a way to win. You can't really have the light without the dark.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

limpan21 wrote...

As a european (Swede) i find it amazingly ironic that you have people exploding in fountains of blood (something frowned on in europe) in pretty much every type of media in the US,but showing any form of nudity is somehow tabu, it really blows my mind away.

Yeah, I think we have more in common with our middle-eastern brethren than we like to think, here in the states.

[hussey 92]

limpan21 wrote...

As a european (Swede) i find it amazingly ironic that you have people exploding in fountains of blood (something frowned on in europe) in pretty much every type of media in the US,but showing any form of nudity is somehow tabu, it really blows my mind away.

love this post^

America:  We love our guns and hate our bodies

[BubbleDncr]

I don't want something graphic like the Witcher.

But if they improved on the sex scenes a la Mass Effect 1 or Mass Effect 3 style, I would super happy. Showing more, but still in a tasteful way.

[coles4971]

I saw the thread title and immediately thought of someone asking for gore and more revealing sex scenes.

Surprise, surprise, I was right.

Bioware do not need to show T&A just to make their games mature.

[King Cousland]

 *Sigh* For the umpteenth time, the sex scenes were used as an example. They are not a priority, nor even something I particularly care about that much. Others (such as Amycus89) have made much better suggestions than I about how future installments could return to being dark and inject some more maturity. 

[Atakuma]

I don't have a problem with nudity, however I can't stand this type of argument for it. There is nothing inherently mature about nudity or explicit sex scenes. Real maturity comes from how adult situations are handled, not how graphic those situations are.

[Reznore57]

DA is actually really mature , maturity isn't about showing nipples.

You deal with terrorism , ideology fighting , abuse , serial killer, child molester.

It isn't super graphic , the rapes , beating etc are not shown, doesn't mean they don't happen.

I played The Walking Dead the game recently and it's way more graphic ...It's supposed to be an"horror" game ...I kinda of like it but all the gore kind of makes me sick ...
I wouldn't want anything like this in DA.

Anyway for me , the age rating is really justified .

About people wanting some nudity or sex scene ...thanks but no.
There's plenty of sex on the internet already if i want to watch some.
I remember the sex scene in DAO , ...it was so ridiculous , I had to laugh ...
The fade to black is nice , you have virtual sex and it's up to you to imagine how it goes .

[bEVEsthda]

brushyourteeth wrote...
My understanding is that one philosophy isn't necessarily better than the other - they're just different. One can't really judge another culture - you're always going to be looking at it through the lens of your own cultural upbringing, which will most always be "better." It's better maybe just to say "That's what I'll get from North America." or "That's what they make in Europe." And the truth is there are plenty of Americans who would love to see more nudity in DA. Not less violence - just more nudity. There are even some who think a game doesn't deserve an M rating unless it pushes every boundary possible - what the developers want to do with their game is a non-issue.

I'm not too up to date on this, but I'm reasonably sure that sexual sadists and sexually driven serial killers, have been rather solidly coupled with parental suppression of emergent, sexual interest (which is entirely normal, healthy and sound) in kids growing up. Mailorder underwear catalogues being taboo, the emergent sexual drive can then instead be warped and refocused on tearing wings off flies, to begin with.

If we then also consider the frequence of this kind of criminals, in different countries and periods, I'd say it seems to fit rather well? So maybe it is possible to say one philosophy is better than the other?

What is also bad news, is violence in the same context as sexually arousing content. This is also unhealthy, in particular for young people.

[LinksOcarina]

harkness72 wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Every time I see threads like this, I think OP must be just barely eighteen and desperate to be ZOMG SUPAH EDGY AND ALL GROWED UP. /snort.

Heh, not at all, I just feel that DA seems to be drifting from the "dark" and "mature" RPG series that it first established itself as. 

Uh...implied racism, religious persecution, murder, terrorism, sacrifice and defeat are not dark enough?

I mean, don't get me wrong, only two game series actually have explored most of this, and that is Dragon Age and The Witcher, but I doubt it is drifting away from anything dark or mature at all. 

[Sylvanpyxie]

I understand that this thread has progressed beyond this argument now, but i always feel the need to protest when people's first thought for "maturity" is sex and violence. Sex and violence are human nature, they're primal, animalistic, but they are *not* mature.

If you're intending to request maturity in computer games then you should approach it in a mature manner. Preaching for more sex and violence is not the best way to go about it.

Some of the most mature games i've played were Teen rated and they barely broached the topic of romance, let alone sex. There was no excess of violence or gore and a large number of battles could simply be avoided by a diplomatic tongue.

The reason i found these games to be infinitely more mature than other titles is because they challenged me in a very adult manner. They gave me scenarios that forced me to question my deepest beliefs and occasionally had me completely U turning. They required me to puzzle through some of the hardest riddles and word games. They required me to choose between my closest friends, my own well being and the characters outside of my party that i had grown to love.

They were fueled by deep, engaging and belief shattering stories. Stories that made me turn not only on my companions, but also on my Gods. Stories that made me question my sense of justice, my morality and my mortality. Stories full of torturous horrors that were neither violent nor gorey, but things that disturbed me to my very core.

A mature game, to me personally, is something that can boast a deep, intellectual, emotional, engaging story line. Capable of challenging me intellectually, emotionally and philosophically.

I believe Bioware were doing quite well with Dragon Age Origins and Awakening. You were given the chance to play as an oppressed party. You got to witness, and experience, first hand what Templars and Slavers were capable of. How Nobles could, and would, abuse their power over a minority like Alienage Elves. The plight of the Dalish, attempting to remain one step ahead of Humans who would do them harm for merely existing.

You were also a Grey Warden, feared, revered and forever cursed. Witnessing first hand the power of the Darkspawn, their darkness, their madness and their shattered humanity.

Bioware have however flounced a bit at Dragon Age II, but i believe it's because the game largely felt like it wasn't taking itself seriously, between the clownish colours, the poor humour and the excess of crazy people. Unlike Origins there was also no opportunity to experience the oppressions of Thedas first hand, which was the biggest hinderance to the level of maturity that most people expected.

I'm more than certain Bioware will be capable of bringing the maturity back, offering us the opportunity to once again not only witness, but *experience*, the darker aspects of the franchise.

Too Long Didn't Read: Thedas is full of darkness and the Dragon Age Franchise is full of Mature Themes. Dragon Age II just portrayed those themes poorly and the gamer's sense of maturity suffered for it.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 11 août 2012 - 10:32 .

[King Cousland]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

I understand that this thread has progressed beyond this argument now, but i always feel the need to protest when people's first thought for "maturity" is sex and violence. Sex and violence are human nature, they're primal, animalistic, but they are *not* mature.

If you're intending to request maturity in computer games then you should approach it in a mature manner. Preaching for more sex and violence is not the best way to go about it.

Some of the most mature games i've played were Teen rated and they barely broached the topic of romance, let alone sex. There was no excess of violence or gore and a large number of battles could simply be avoided by a diplomatic tongue.

The reason i found these games to be infinitely more mature than other titles is because they challenged me in a very adult manner. They gave me scenarios that forced me to question my deepest beliefs and occasionally had me completely U turning. They required me to puzzle through some of the hardest riddles and word games. They required me to choose between my closest friends, my own well being and the characters outside of my party that i had grown to love.

They were fueled by deep, engaging and belief shattering stories. Stories that made me turn not only on my companions, but also on my Gods. Stories that made me question my sense of justice, my morally and my mortality. Stories full of torturous horrors that were neither violent nor gorey, but things that disturbed me to my very core.

A mature game, to me personally, is something that can boast a deep, intellectual, emotional, engaging story line. Capable of challenging me intellectually, emotionally and philosophically.

I believe Bioware were doing quite well with Dragon Age Origins and Awakening. You were given the chance to play as an oppressed party. You got to witness, and experience, first hand what Templars and Slavers were capable of. How Nobles could, and would, abuse their power over a minority like Alienage Elves. The plight of the Dalish, attempting to remain one step ahead of Humans who would do them harm for merely existing.

You were also a Grey Warden, feared, revered and forever cursed. Witnessing first hand the power of the Darkspawn, their darkness, their madness and their shattered humanity.

Bioware have however flounced a bit at Dragon Age II, but i believe it's because the game largely felt like it wasn't taking itself seriously, between the clownish colours, the poor humour and the excess of crazy people. Unlike Origins there was also no opportunity to experience the oppressions of Thedas first hand, which was the biggest hinderance to the level of maturity that most people expected.

I'm more than certain Bioware will be capable of bringing the maturity back, offering us the opportunity to once again not only witness, but *experience*, the darker aspects of the franchise.

Too Long Didn't Read: Thedas is full of darkness and the Dragon Age Franchise is full of Mature Themes. Dragon Age II just portrayed those themes poorly and the gamer's sense of maturity suffered for it.

This so many times over. On reflection, my example of sex and nudity was a pretty bad choice to include and I apologise. You've articulated perfectly what I wanted to express and what I'd like to see more of. So...thanks :happy:

[Emzamination]

Sorry OP but I'm gonna have to go with 'No'.These kids couldn't go 10s without calling Hawke a Pedo and photo shopping photos when they saw how young merrill looked despite knowing her age, Isabella has been called every female obscenity in the book +2 on these forums, they raged and moaned over SS relations and Ander's "pass" in game.Maturity? HA HA HA!!! This audience just isn't ready to take that step yet.

[force192]

I would like DA3 to have a more mature story. But I don't need sex, nudity, and more language.

Also I love the fad to black, and I would like to see the romance scenes (I call them romance scenes instead of sex scenes since that's what they are) to be like the ones in ME3.

[mupp3tz]

Cultist wrote...
Dragon Age 2
Global First Ten Weeks (Units)

14th May 2011
Week: 10
Total: 266,439
Source.

Witcher 2
Global First Ten Weeks (Units)
23rd July 2011
Week: 10
589,819
Source.

As we can see, 15 year olds failed to become a profitable target group and overall more mature Witcher sold twice as better than DA2.

The numbers you gave were comparing TW2 to DA2... which is irrelevant, as my post was addressing Bioware vs CDPR.  Not just one single release.  There is no way in hell that CDPR has the same capital as Bioware, simply because one is more mainstream and well known.  And because they are so mainstream, they are wary of putting graphic sex scenes in their games.  They want it to be as accessible as possible.  That's my point.

Everyone knows DA2 was a colossal disappointment to many fans... and once all those negative reviews come out, more and more people decide to opt out and wait until it hits a low price.  TW2 on the other hand, received much praise during it's release.  A bigger percentage of those who bought TW1 were out to buy TW2, as opposed to those who bought DA:O going into DA2

limpan21 wrote...

As a european (Swede) i find it amazingly ironic that you have people exploding in fountains of blood (something
frowned on in europe) in pretty much every type of media in the US,but showing any form of nudity is somehow tabu, it really blows my mind away.

As an American, I also find this a bit amusing.  I'm not quite sure at what point sex became such a taboo here... but I'm assuming that there was a heavy emphasis on morality at some point in the past (maybe the 50s?), painting it as "that thing that adults do, but we never talk about." and it's just stuck.

What's funny is that nearly all of us will/have had sex at some point in our lives, whereas an extremely small minority have ever commited extreme acts of violence. 

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 27 juillet 2012 - 04:25 .

[hussey 92]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

because they are so mainstream, they are wary of putting graphic sex scenes in their games.  They want it to be as accessible as possible.

That sums it up pretty well.

[coles4971]

A bigger percentage of those who bought TW1 were out to buy TW2, as opposed to those who bought DA:O going into DA2

really?

[brushyourteeth]

bEVEsthda wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
My understanding is that one philosophy isn't necessarily better than the other - they're just different. One can't really judge another culture - you're always going to be looking at it through the lens of your own cultural upbringing, which will most always be "better." It's better maybe just to say "That's what I'll get from North America." or "That's what they make in Europe." And the truth is there are plenty of Americans who would love to see more nudity in DA. Not less violence - just more nudity. There are even some who think a game doesn't deserve an M rating unless it pushes every boundary possible - what the developers want to do with their game is a non-issue.

I'm not too up to date on this, but I'm reasonably sure that sexual sadists and sexually driven serial killers, have been rather solidly coupled with parental suppression of emergent, sexual interest (which is entirely normal, healthy and sound) in kids growing up. Mailorder underwear catalogues being taboo, the emergent sexual drive can then instead be warped and refocused on tearing wings off flies, to begin with.

I guess I can't scientifically refute this, but the question relates to my RL degree and I've never seen any study that supports it. 

If we then also consider the frequence of this kind of criminals, in different countries and periods, I'd say it seems to fit rather well? So maybe it is possible to say one philosophy is better than the other?

It might make one philosophy more conducive to preventing sexual crime, but that wouldn't necessarily make it "better." The value judgment is subjective, for one, and for another it may lead to other social issues (like promiscuity, STD's, etc.) instead - essentially a trade-off. Which is just an example - Europe is no more filled with sexually promiscuous children than America is populated by sexualy repressed serial killers on every street corner. Anyway...

What is also bad news, is violence in the same context as sexually arousing content. This is also unhealthy, in particular for young people.

I couldn't agree with this more. Like when games or tv shows won't show nudity unless it's the nude corpse of a dead character. WTF is the deal with that?

For the record, Bioware - DO NOT WANT!

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 27 juillet 2012 - 05:47 .

[Kidd]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

There is no way in hell that CDPR has the same capital as Bioware, simply because one is more mainstream and well known.

I'm not so sure. Doesn't CDPR get a lot of the profits made off gog on top of their own game sales? In comparison, BioWare only gets one slice out of many of the Origin pie on top of their own game sales. I know I've spent more money on gog than Origin so far, so essentially I've given CDPR more money than all of EA through ancillary revenue streams - and BioWare only gets to eat a small amount of what little I've given.

But yes, the point you were making still stands. I wasn't arguing the main point as much as I just reacted to this line, out of context =)