55 réponses à ce sujet

[NRieh]

I think I enjoy the game as it is. More or less. But it's first case on my gaming practice (if not counting some oldschool pixelhunting quests) when I had to check wikis much more then once, and for in-game reasons - not just to read it like codex. Fade, some companions quests (eg Sten's sword), some part of dwarven line, and as worst case - Landsmeet. 

I don't really like guessing what exactly game wants me to do. Puzzles (like bridge or spring and jug) - are ok. But I never thought there can be some kind of "right" order of arguments that must be followed to "win" Landsmeet. Not being 40+ cunning and max coercion. I did not want to side with queen, and I did most of side quests I could find (mb 1 or two left). Now I know that I should end all of them, and find those I've missed (if possible), and run around city to talk more, and then - pick right lines. And  there is no way I could have known it before - no one told me "you don't seem ready enough - are you sure you want to go there?" or "you'd better be careful talking about *this* and *this*. 

I'm not really casual type, I like complexity, but I don't like it when mechanics is not much plot&common sense-related. Probably, that's just me. I wonder, if anyone else was annoyed by the amount of metagaming on his first playthrough?
Not only specifically about quests - about building relations with companions, may be?..
 Or everything worked that so fine that no reloads and wikis were needed at all? 

[Fauxnormal]

/plays the world's tiniest violin.

[Vanilka]

I must say that with me everything worked more or less perfectly until the very end where I stupidly refused doing the Dark Ritual. The biggest mistake of my first Warden's career. I knew I should have made my Wardens do it just in case, ahh. But alas. Something I don't plan to repeat any time soon, let me tell you.

I think that a lot of things are rather intuitive, however, or are at least said or implied, which might be very easy to miss during the first playthrough. Not all, I guess, but it doesn't matter that much, in my opinion, because the game pushes you towards certain outcomes. For example, even if you lose the Landsmeet - as it once happened to my Human Noble because he wasn't much of a diplomat -, you get to duel Loghain anyway in the end and get to decide who's going to take the throne.

The thing is that the game doesn't necessarily push you towards the good ending or the ending you want, but it definitely tries to push you forward. At least in my experience.

Some things require a bit of thinking and patience or paying attention during the dialogues though. I had no trouble finding Sten's sword, for example. The NPCs are very clear on the matter, I think. Provided you get the necessary information from Sten, that is. It did take me a while to figure out the Fade for the first time but I managed in the end.

What I had to experiment about, however, was gift giving - which isn't all that important, I think. I had no idea who is supposed to get some of the statues, for example. It's not written in his codex entry nor it is implied anywhere, I think. I had to learn the fact that the certain companion enjoys getting the warrior statue or the statue of robed woman on wiki, I have to admit that one. I also didn't have an idea about the possibility of hardening some of the characters until I read it somewhere. Still, I think it's possible to fare pretty well with unhardened ones. However, I accidentally found out I can't spare Loghain if I want to keep Alistair before my first Landsmeet, which is the only serious thing I can recall right know. I must admit that somewhat influenced me during the Landsmeet.

Except for that, I've never looked in the wiki much, unless I got really frustrated with looking for a piece of armour to complete a set or unless my curiosity got the better of me.

To be honest, I enjoy that the game doesn't tell you what exactly you have to do. It makes me want to replay the game again and again to see different outcomes of different situations and how they contribute to the various endings. I don't think there is any "right" or "correct" way to do things. You might get into a really unpleasant situation because of your decisions and you might get a bad ending but that's a part of the game.

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 21 juillet 2012 - 10:19 .

[Saberchic]

I missed out on some things my first playthrough because I wasn't paying attention. I like playing blind the first time.

There's fun in finding out maybe the choice you picked wasn't the best or having someone get angry with you because of an action you chose. I remember Alistair yelling at me because I sacrificed Isolde. I didn't even know going to the Circle was an option because I didn't pick certain dialogue options and wasn't paying close attention to what they said.

But I tend to play games more than once, so after my blind playthrough, I like to find out what I missed by picking other choices than what I did before or coming to forums like these and chatting with others.

I guess it depends on what your definition of "good" is. I think a game is good even when I make "mistakes." If you want to play a "perfect" game on your first run, then yes, you probably will have to metagame, but that's not really the game's fault.

[NRieh]

For example, even if you lose the Landsmeet - as it once happened to my Human Noble because he wasn't much of a diplomat -, you get to duel Loghain anyway in the end and get to decide who's going to take the throne.

But how do I (first time player ) know this when landsmeet is lost and big fight starts? It was like "WTF?! relaoding asap" for me.

However, I accidentally found out I can't spare Loghain if I want to keep Alistair before my first Landsmeet, which is the only serious thing I can recall right know. I must admit that somewhat influenced me during the Landsmeet.

Well, I could not spare him anyway. As I had landsmeet lost, even after reloading and ending some quests (eg giving ring to sister in tavern). But that's not something you can know without reading outer sources, right?

Once again, I'm not about highlighting good\\bad lines with blue or red colours, and not about needing icons that show me the way. But I think that some places - fade, landsmeet - as biggest examples can be hard to do without reading. Fade will just take hell lot of time. And landsmeet... I still don't understand how could I win it. I found out later that I missed one tortured noble in a dungeon, though I found and freed rest of them. So - I should have known that there is something much more vital than "saving" queen at estate?..

I guess it depends on what your definition of "good" is. I think a game is good even when I make "mistakes." If you want to play a "perfect" game on your first run, then yes, you probably will have to metagame, but that's not really the game's fault.

I'm talking not much about "perfect" playthrough, but about "desired outcomes". Returning to that very Landsmeet - from metagaming point of view it turns out that winning is not necessary at all (exept for the case when you wish to keep Loghain alive). But from ongoing events it looks much like loss. And I still have no idea whether I could "win" it or not.

I must say that with me everything worked more or less perfectly until the very end where I stupidly refused doing the Dark Ritual. The biggest mistake of my first Warden's career.

I hesitated, but tlaked Alistair to agree. I'd rather keep both of us alive (I hope to, at least, because my play is not finished yet, Denerim took much more time then I expected, I'd have to stay up till morning to finish it).

Once again - I'm not saying game is bad or somethingl ike that. It did not hit me as much as ME1 did - true, but I always respected good old NWN (and other d20 "classics"), so - I enjoy it. But still I think some thigns could have been more obvious without reading.

I had no trouble finding Sten's sword, for example.

He said about lake, but I did not notice anything in Redcliff and at port. Then I started finding pieces of "topsider sword" doing dwarves (and I did not get quest while running around - just two parts). So...yeah, there can be some troubles. 8)

[Vanilka]

Nrieh wrote...
But how do I (first time player ) know this when landsmeet is lost and big fight starts? It was like "WTF?! relaoding asap" for me.

Well, if you had finished the fight, you would have found out. I was quite shocked when I lost the Landsmeet, as well. Hah, I almost got a heart attack when I heard Logain say that my beloved Wardens were to be executed. :lol:But, of course, my heroes wouldn't go down without chopping off a few heads first and I was determined to give Logain what he deserved despite the brawl. I didn't have an idea how the things were going to turn out until the last second and I must say it was somewhat refreshing to do it this way for once.
As a first-time player, you simply have to wait and see what happens. The game is not lost until it tells you so.
I understand why you reloaded though. Hah, I remember reloading the first few times Ser Cauthrien defeated me in Howe's estate. I had never waited for the "Your journey ends here..." screen and reloaded immediately, thinking: "This fight is totally IMPOSSIBLE! WHAT were they thinking?!" It took me a while to realise that I'm not even supposed to win that one. 

Nrieh wrote... 
Well, I could not spare him anyway. As I had landsmeet lost, even after reloading and ending some quests (eg giving ring to sister in tavern). But that's not something you can know without reading outer sources, right?

I probably wouldn't, as well. The more I play, the more reasons I find for that. However, the fact I had known what would have happened took the dilemma I might otherwise have had away. Riordan presents a few arguments that aren't completely unreasonable after all. But still, the game wouldn't have ended no matter how I would have decided.
Yes, some quests are probably not so clear. Some you find or finish by pure chance. Those are, however, usually minor quests that are not important for the main story line. You don't have to find Sten's sword to finish the game successfully nor do you have to run errands for random NPCs for that.
Yes, some quests you finish by chance. The one with the noble sister of the templar you find in the Howe's estate you mention - I hope that's the one you mean. I also wondered where I was supposed to find the woman. Or the father of the tortured noble I had saved in the estate. That's something you can't really know, I guess. But as I said, it's possible to win the game without them, in case you don't manage to find them.

Nrieh wrote... 
Once again, I'm not about highlighting goodbad lines with blue or red colours, and not about needing icons that show me the way. But I think that some places - fade, landsmeet - as biggest examples can be hard to do without reading. Fade will just take hell lot of time.

 
Yes, I agree that the Fade is very time-consuming. Even after you know what to do. Still, the NPCs pretty much tell you what to do. Niall tells you that he encountered various barriers in the Fade and hints at the fact that you may need special means to deal with them and tells you about the mouse. I also burnt my Warden's bum a few times before I realised that I have to find a way to change into something a little more fire-resistant before I can cross the fires. But the Fade is one huge puzzle - you just have to use your head much more than in the rest of the game. I, personally, found it fascinating, doing it for the first time.
However, I know that not everyone is into these things. My only complaint would be that after a while it gets somewhat tedious without your companions. I always can't wait to get them back. I know that a lot of people hate this part of the game because it's long and boring or unnecessarily complicated for them. I can understand why someone would look into the wiki simply to get rid of it already. Someone has even made a mod to skip it.
Nevertheless, I think it is possible to figure it out without help. But it does take some time and patience and I agree that some more hints wouldn't hurt - for example, which area to take first and which last in order to find what you need and not to wander pointlessly.

Nrieh wrote...  
And landsmeet... I still don't understand how could I win it. I found out later that I missed one tortured noble in a dungeon, though I found and freed rest of them. So - I should have known that there is something much more vital than "saving" queen at estate?..

Well, they are not really vital to finishing the Landsmeet. Yes, it makes things easier for you but, as I said, I got to decide who was going to rule despite losing the Landsmeet. I completely forgot to present all the evidence the party had gathered before the Landsmeet with my Human Noble.  That's probably one of the reasons we lost.
However, no matter how badly or amazingly you fare, Loghain will duel you. Winning the duel seems to be vital, the rest not so much.

Nrieh wrote... 
I hesitated, but tlaked Alistair to agree. I'd rather keep both of us alive (I hope to, at least, because my play is not finished yet, Denerim took much more time then I expected, I'd have to stay up till morning to finish it).

A reasonable decision. That's all I'll say in order not to spoil anything. Good luck. 

Nrieh wrote... 
Once again - I'm not saying game is bad or somethingl ike that. It did not hit me as much as ME1 did - true, but I always respected good old NWN (and other d20 "classics"), so - I enjoy it. But still I think some thigns could have been more obvious without reading.

It's funny you mention NWN because those games had some really cryptic puzzles. I love them regardless. But I think DA:O, while being a little cryptic itself, pales in comparison. There, I really had to look up a solution a few times. I always feel so guilty after doing so though. 

Nrieh wrote...  
He said about lake, but I did not notice anything in Redcliff and at port. Then I started finding pieces of "topsider sword" doing dwarves (and I did not get quest while running around - just two parts). So...yeah, there can be some troubles. 8)

Sten sends you to the Lake Calenhad, the guy looting corpses there tells you to look for some guy in the Frostback Mountains, the guy there tells you to find Dwyn. I don't know whether he mentions where you can find him though. Which could be a problem if you don't remember the guy.
With some quests, you simply have to play a detective and listen rather carefully. But yes, sometimes you simply have to get lucky. But, as I said, those are usually minor quests that don't hurt so much if missed.

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 22 juillet 2012 - 12:20 .

[Fiacre]

Nrieh wrote...

But how do I (first time player ) know this when landsmeet is lost and big fight starts? It was like "WTF?! relaoding asap" for me.

Because the game pushes you from cutscene to cutscene and it's quickly pointed out how you can win? All you need to do is *not* reload as soon as something doesn't go like planned. If you were screwed, you'd get a game over -- perhaps even an interesting one worth seeing, and simply reload afterwards, if not, as is the case, you quickly find out what to do now.

Well, I could not spare him anyway. As I had landsmeet lost, even after reloading and ending some quests (eg giving ring to sister in tavern). But that's not something you can know without reading outer sources, right?

Once again, I'm not about highlighting goodbad lines with blue or red colours, and not about needing icons that show me the way. But I think that some places - fade, landsmeet - as biggest examples can be hard to do without reading. Fade will just take hell lot of time. And landsmeet... I still don't understand how could I win it. I found out later that I missed one tortured noble in a dungeon, though I found and freed rest of them. So - I should have known that there is something much more vital than "saving" queen at estate?..

...? I'm pretty sure you can still spare him when you've lost the vote, just fight the brawl and then the due, don't let Alistair do the latter, accept his surrender and then go along with Riordan's suggestion.

I'm sort of surpised that one wouldn't do those side quests in the first place... they take, like, five minutes, and that your position is shaky is pointed out multiple times.

Winning the Landsmeet is easy if you have Anora's support and did the side quests. Admittedly, it's more difficult without it, but you know that in advance beause it's pointed out multiple times that she's popular and influencial. And even then it is possible -- you simply need to do some exploring and be good enough at politics to understand what is most likely to convince the nobles.

They're nobles, so pointing out that Howe has kidnapped some opf their own and tortured them will rile them up, obviously, and you know that you'll have Sighard's support regarding that claim. They're likely religious since people in this setting tend to be, so pointing out that Loghain used a blood mage -- and again, to attack one of their own -- is also a good idea. The slavery on the other hand won't matter as much to them since it's just the elves, and the game makes it clear that few care about them. It's not even the first time that you have to say the right things to get the desired result in the game. The interactions with people are quite good in that regard.

I'm talking not much about "perfect" playthrough, but about "desired outcomes". Returning to that very Landsmeet - from metagaming point of view it turns out that winning is not necessary at all (exept for the case when you wish to keep Loghain alive). But from ongoing events it looks much like loss. And I still have no idea whether I could "win" it or not.

But sometimes things don't go like planned. And simply waiting how events unfold would tell you a minute after losing the vote that you're not screwed quite yet. And as I said, it's really easy if you have Anora's support and then don't completely screw yourself over by making all the wrong arguments (and that there are wrong arguments is only logical). And it's possible even if you don't, just really difficult in that IIRC you must let Vaughan go /do the one side quest you aren't pushed to do -- Trial of the Crows, which you don't know will help with the Landsmeet before accepting it -- and make the right arguments, but that's only logical, too, considering Anora's status.

And exploring the dungeon isn't that much to ask. It's not like the game doesn't keep rewarding you for exploring.  It points you almost everywhere you need to go to win, you just have to refrain from rushing through.

He said about lake, but I did not notice anything in Redcliff and at port. Then I started finding pieces of "topsider sword" doing dwarves (and I did not get quest while running around - just two parts). So...yeah, there can be some troubles. 8)

He said Lake Calenhad. All you need to do is go to the location labeled as such, where there are some really obvious bones with a *really* obvious NPC standing righ there, near the entrance.

And the Topsider's Honour quests only "activates", once you find the... hilt, I think. Again, simply, explore (similar to Key to the City, Crosscut Drifter's Cache and Jammer's Stash). And in this case (as with those others), it's just some extra loot that isn't strictly necessary, just nice to have.

[Dintonta]

For what you want to achieve, I don't think you need metagaming (reading spoilers on DAwiki or forums), but a little bit of metagame-thinking could help while you play :
In DA:O there is a sort of contradiction between the side-quests an the main-quests, the lasts give you a feeling of urgency which is consistent with the story (after all, you want to quell the Blight as soon as possible) but largely irrelevant game-wise (except for the Redcliffe village night attack).
For ex. : You may go to Orzammar, side with one of the two pretenders and hear him say something like "We have not much time left, my competitor has taken measures to force the issue of the election in the next second, you have to hurry!"
Most of the time, those sort of statements are false. You could as well go to Denerim, do some shopping, go south to Flemeth's hut to drink a cup of swamp tea, go north to Soldier's Peak to check your party chest, etc... Don't worry : Everybody's waiting for you, including the Archdemon. When you'll go back to Orzammar, the Assembly will still be stuck.
What I mean is : You can take your time to search thoroughly every wall in every corner of every room of every place you explore, you have time to speak to everybody (and pick-pocket them, btw) and you can take your time to read carefuly what everybody says (trying to figure what are his/her character, motives and beliefs), it will help you to not miss useful informations. And naturally, you can take as much side-quest as you want before completing the main-quest. It's very much like NWN1. No hurry...
For ex. The first time I met the templar you have spoken of, I knew who his sister was because I already tried to speak to everybody and heard every conversation in the Gnawed Noble tavern.
Another thing which helps, is to re-read frequently the journal entries, sorry if it seems silly obvious, but I know I often forget some important details, which are actually written inside...

Modifié par Dintonta, 22 juillet 2012 - 01:30 .

[Gervaise]

My first playthrough was best because I didn't metagame. I just made my choices and took what came. The moment Riordan told us one of us had to die to kill the archdemon, I knew darn well it wouldn't be him. Yet I refused the dark ritual for very strong personal reasons, accepting that I would likely die as a result. The fact that I didn't was due to an on the spot sudden decision that took me totally by surprise (and I was the one making it!).

On subsequent playthroughs I allowed the different origins to influence the way my character made decisions and so came up with a different outcome. None have had the same emotional impact of that first game simply because I knew what was coming and so could adjust my decisions accordingly but this is not what I would call metagaming, since I still stayed true to the particular character warden that I was playing. Even romances are fairly easy to pursue provided you take the trouble to talk to your companions and try to understand their point of view. The only real metagaming I did was with regard to the "hardening" of charcters, which I did not even know existed until coming to the boards.

One of the things I like about Origins as opposed to DA2 is that you can do this and not have to constantly refer back to wiki site or here in order to find out how to make something happen. Even with the romances on the whole you can make a decision for one person and then subsequently change your mind (unless you ruled romance out totally when first asked about it). The choices I made in Origins always seemed far more natural and true to the particular character I was playing and because there are so many variants, each warden has been distinctly different from the others, not just because they were a different race or class. I am currently replaying on a new computer after a considerable break and the only concession to metagaming is ensuring that I make the right choices in order to "harden" a character if this is going to impact on results further down the line.

[actionhero112]

Eh, whatever constitutes "good" in this game is highly questionable. They wouldn't have very good moral choices if there was always a right answer.

Also I won the Landsmeet first time. Did all the quests, missed one argument, married Alistair to Anora, let Vaughn live. Good show.

Like I didn't get a lot of the secrets to the game, but by getting lost and confused, you tend to find a lot of stuff that I skip in later playthroughs. Like the Fadewall, or the Ageless.

[WraithTDK]

Nrieh wrote...

I think I enjoy the game as it is. More or less. But it's first case on my gaming practice (if not counting some oldschool pixelhunting quests) when I had to check wikis much more then once, and for in-game reasons - not just to read it like codex. Fade, some companions quests (eg Sten's sword), some part of dwarven line, and as worst case - Landsmeet.

Why? Sten's sword tells you everything you need to know in Dialogue. Sten tells you he lost his sword near the lake. You follow this lead to the lake with Sten, the man there points you to the frostback mountains. You follow that lead to the mountains, the man tells you he sold the sword to Dwynn. You go to Dwynn (if you haven't met him, you'll certainly hear him mentioned when you get to Redcliff), get the sword, quest over. Hardly impossible without help.

As for the Landsmeet, if you've done enough side quests and talked to the nobles in the tavern (and why not? DAO is a big game, but it's meant to be savored!) then you win the landsmeet, and all you have to do is beat Loghain. Even if you haven't, it's just one more battle.

Nrieh wrote... I don't really like guessing what exactly game wants me to do.

I think you're missing the point of a game like this. The game doesn't "want" you to do anything. The whole point of this game is for you to decide what to do. This isn't Halo (nothing against Halo, mind you; love the franchise); it's not about surviving long enough for the game to tell you a story. This is Dragon Age. And Dragon Age is about being part of writing the story. The game doesn't tell you what it wants you to do, it waits for you to tell it what to do, and then reacts accordingly. That's the brilliance of it.

 But I never thought there can be some kind of "right" order of arguments that must be followed to "win" Landsmeet. Not being 40+ cunning and max coercion. I did not want to side with queen, and I did most of side quests I could find (mb 1 or two left). Now I know that I should end all of them, and find those I've missed (if possible), and run around city to talk more, and then - pick right lines. And  there is no way I could have known it before - no one told me "you don't seem ready enough - are you sure you want to go there?" or "you'd better be careful talking about *this* and *this*.  

 

That depends on if you've done enough to win the favor of the attending nobility. Everyone there has something that will win their favor, with the exception of one old geezer who will always vote for whomever has the least ammount of votes. Wulf tells you in the tavern that his lands have been overrun by the blight. So during the landsmeet, you say the blight is the real enemy. Wulf is on your side. Obviously, Anora is only going to support you if you promise to support her. The game makes it pretty clear throughout that the Chantry is none to fond of Maleficar (sp), so mentioning that Loghain had one poison Emon is going to invoke a response from them. Vaughan will promise to support you if you let him out of Howe's prison, but you don't need him and he's a scum bag so I say stabby stabby . If you completed the Lost Templar quest, 
Alfstanna knows that Howe was holding her brother and you rescued him, so obviously she's going to be on your side. Same thing with 
Sighard and his son in the Tortured Noble quest. Finally, if you completed all the Crow's quests, there father of the kid you helped The Crows rescue will support you.

In short, the arguments you make are not quite as important as your prepration; but all of this can reasoned out just by plying the game, really exploring the areas you go to, doing side quests, and paying attention to what people tell you. It's only really a problem if you're rushing through the game ignoring things. This isn't a speed-run game.

And the reason it doesn't tell you "you don't seem ready enough" is because, again, this isn't a linear "here's what you're supposed to do, go do it" game. This game is about the choices you make affecting the story. There is no "right" way of plying. It's your story, and no one can tell you how to play it.

Ultimately, everything you need to know is in the game. 99% of it is litteraly told to you through voiced dialogue. You just have to explore and pay attention.

Modifié par WraithTDK, 31 juillet 2012 - 02:12 .

[Treacherous J Slither]

The beauty of a game like this is all the various possibilities that encourage another playthrough just to see what else you can do.

Screw metagaming. It takes a certain fun out of things IMO.

[Vanilka]

You reminded me of something, WraithTDK, when you said: "This isn't a speed-run game." I must wonder - and I'm not judging anyone for how they play their games, of course - how people who spend only about 40 hours in the game do it. I'm almost ashamed to admit it but my average is above 100 hours. In my current playthrough, I've already reached 103 hours and I haven't even got to the Landsmeet yet. Maybe I'm too slow, I don't know. But I enjoy every minute of it.

I agree with what JSlither said wholeheartedly. The beauty of the game is in its possibilities. There's so much you can do and discover. I keep finding new things despite replaying the game quite thoroughly for the third time and I'm going for a different ending again. There are so many different paths you can take and different choices you can make. Not many of them are clearly bad or good. But that's what the game is about. As WraithTDK said (my apologies for borrowing your ideas but your post is too good not to be abused), it's being part of the story that makes this game wonderful. You don't have to do perfectly - which is very relative anyway - and finish with "and they lived happily ever after" to enjoy it. My first ending was so heartbreaking for me, I cried like a little kid. But it was still pretty epic, as was the whole playthrough with all the "good" and "bad" decisions I had made with my character.
So, what if you skip a few quests or fail at the Landsmeet. That's nothing that would break the game. DA:O is meant to be played and roleplayed more than once anyway. I really wouldn't worry about having a perfect game. Nor would I rush through it.

[mousestalker]

My very first time playing is my favourite, simply because the game was new to me. I had a botched start as a human noble, but after ffiteen minutes I created my city elf rogue. Everything went swimmingly until Alistair dumped me after the Landsmeet. I saw the US ending on my very first complete play through.

I've now played every origin and enjoyed them all, but the first had easily the most impact. As far as desired endings, it's not what I wanted at the time. I wanted to marry Alistair and have the fairy tale ending. But it was an excellent ending none the less.

[ejoslin]

I didn't even realize you could win the Landsmeet until about my third or forth play through. Why metagame? Just because things don't happen in the easiest way possible doesn't mean you have to cheat to do them. When you lose the landsmeet, it's not "Game Over" or anything -- you just have an additional fight.

Had I metagamed, my romance with Alistair would not have been nearly as powerful or profound, even though it did not have a happy ending. Then again, if I had metagamed, my romance with Zevran wouldn't have been nearly so touching or as surprising.

I'm not even sure that having the "ideal" playthrough is something you'd want to do in DA:O. Some of the things you do turn out well, others turn out badly, but hey, in the end, you're the hero, and so it's an incredibly satisfying experience.

[WraithTDK]

Vanilka of the Sword Coast wrote...

You reminded me of something, WraithTDK, when you said: "This isn't a speed-run game." I must wonder - and I'm not judging anyone for how they play their games, of course - how people who spend only about 40 hours in the game do it. I'm almost ashamed to admit it but my average is above 100 hours. In my current playthrough, I've already reached 103 hours and I haven't even got to the Landsmeet yet. Maybe I'm too slow, I don't know. But I enjoy every minute of it.

I'm just gonna put this here and say "I understand." 

Mind you, that doesn't count the amount of time it took playing the XBox version long enough to get all the achievements.

Modifié par WraithTDK, 01 août 2012 - 03:45 .

[Vanilka]

WraithTDK wrote...



I'm just gonna put this here and say "I understand." 

Mind you, that doesn't count the amount of time it took playing the XBox version long enough to get all the achievements.

Ha, I knew I can't be the only one obssessed with the game. Good to know. 

[babymoon]

I'm trying to play a new Cousland without metagaming right now and it's tough. A huge part of me just wants to do everything the "right" way. That's why my first playthroughs are my favorites, because I have to deal with those consequences and surprises.

[tpp]

I played the first time through (Normal, Human Noble) without ever reading anything online about the game's plot, quests, or mechanics. I just made the best choices I could and lived with them. I do recall reloading the Landsmeet a couple of times to try different options (my Warden had already told Anora to shove off, fully predicting the consequences), but that was more because it was at the end of an all-day session and I didn't feel like one more big boss fight. It was obvious enough that the game would continue regardless of the Landsmeet's formal outcome.

Anyway, that playthrough was fantastic and still remains the "canonical" story in my mind as I've started other characters, now with full knowledge of the forums and the wiki. So yes, I think it's perfectly possible to have a great game without metagaming. Even on further playthroughs on higher difficulty levels, I don't always make optimal XP/loot choices ("good guys" don't do the assassin quests, doublecross Zathrian, etc.). When it comes down to it, the game isn't all that challenging - at worst, you just have to chug a few more pots and do some more micromanagement in the toughest fights. Any "necessity" to squeeze the most XP and loot out of every area is purely self-imposed.

[mopotter]

Vanilka of the Sword Coast wrote...

You reminded me of something, WraithTDK, when you said: "This isn't a speed-run game." I must wonder - and I'm not judging anyone for how they play their games, of course - how people who spend only about 40 hours in the game do it. I'm almost ashamed to admit it but my average is above 100 hours. In my current playthrough, I've already reached 103 hours and I haven't even got to the Landsmeet yet. Maybe I'm too slow, I don't know. But I enjoy every minute of it.

I agree with what JSlither said wholeheartedly. The beauty of the game is in its possibilities. There's so much you can do and discover. I keep finding new things despite replaying the game quite thoroughly for the third time and I'm going for a different ending again. There are so many different paths you can take and different choices you can make. Not many of them are clearly bad or good. But that's what the game is about. As WraithTDK said (my apologies for borrowing your ideas but your post is too good not to be abused), it's being part of the story that makes this game wonderful. You don't have to do perfectly - which is very relative anyway - and finish with "and they lived happily ever after" to enjoy it. My first ending was so heartbreaking for me, I cried like a little kid. But it was still pretty epic, as was the whole playthrough with all the "good" and "bad" decisions I had made with my character.
So, what if you skip a few quests or fail at the Landsmeet. That's nothing that would break the game. DA:O is meant to be played and roleplayed more than once anyway. I really wouldn't worry about having a perfect game. Nor would I rush through it.

I agree.  i also don't get the rushing.  

I love finding new things that I've missed.  I've always fought my way out of prison and this last game decided to let them rescue me.  It was great!  Zev and Wynne were very amusing.  Now I have to try others.  

I was surprised with the dark ritual, that there was absolutely no way to get around it.  Hate it, I can do it once in awhile, but would have liked one choice where it could be bypassed.  My favorite right now is romancing Zev,  "harding" a word I don't care for, Alistair and having him and  A marry.  I love hearing him say i was right to make Loghain a warden and letting him kill the dragon.  Now if he had just said that when I romanced him.  Oh well.

I need at least one happy ending in order to enjoy the others.  Without one, i wouldn't be playing it as much as i do.  As you said, it's meant to be played and roleplayed more than once.  

[WraithTDK]

You don't have to do the dark ritual. You can sacrifice yourself and go out a hero, or you can let Alistair or Loghain do it. Personally, if not for Alistair's 100% understandable reaction (IE leaving), I think I would like the Loghain scenario better. If the dimension DAO takes place in has a hell (and considering all the demons, it seems fairly likely it does), Loghain will certainly burn for all the evil he's done. That being said, he strikes me as a once-great man who's been twisted by the horrors of war. There's little doubt in my mind that right or wrong, he believes that he's doing what's best for Ferelden; and I like the idea of him getting his final shot at redemption.

Loghain Dies, Ferelden is saved, the Grey Warden's are spared, and Annora, for whom I always felt HORRIBLE for at the Landsmeet (she watched her father get decapitated and was covered in his blood, for God's sake); is at least spared some of the pain.

[Fiacre]

the demons come from the Fade, though, not some version of Hell. And doesn't Riordan say something about the Grey Warden's soul being obliterated along with the Archdemon, which is what kills Archie for real in the first place? Always do the DR, partly because of that, partly because I think it's more interesting and partly because I can't play a character who isn't good friends with Morrigan, so they always trust her enough to take the risk.

And that cutscene is one reason why Loghain always gets conscripted in my games. I really *really* hate that scene. (Well, it *is* nicely heart wrenching, but ugh, I just can't do that to Anora.)

[AbsoluteApril]

WraithTDK wrote...




I'm just gonna put this here and say "I understand." 

ok, I am completely impressed sir!
I only need another 1,916 hours to unseat you.

[Vanilka]

mopotter wrote...
I was surprised with the dark ritual, that there was absolutely no way to get around it.  Hate it, I can do it once in awhile, but would have liked one choice where it could be bypassed.  My favorite right now is romancing Zev,  "harding" a word I don't care for, Alistair and having him and  A marry.  I love hearing him say i was right to make Loghain a warden and letting him kill the dragon.  Now if he had just said that when I romanced him.  Oh well.

I need at least one happy ending in order to enjoy the others.  Without one, i wouldn't be playing it as much as i do.  As you said, it's meant to be played and roleplayed more than once.  

I see what you mean. Who wouldn't want a fairy tale ending? Mine consists of my Warden and Alistair remaining Grey Wardens together. But during my first playthrough, I refused to do the Dark Ritual both because I though my Warden didn't trust Morrigan well enough with her going on about how the ends justify the means and because she (and I) was prepared to sacrifice her life if necessary. I sensed a bad ending from miles away. But the ending I got surpassed all my expectations - in a bad way. When they defeated the Archie, Alistair just didn't give my Warden a chance and ran off to die. I hate the fact they make your Warden passively stand there and do nothing while her love sacrifices his life for her. It was rather out of character for her. I was so shocked and appalled and sad and angry and... and... when that happened. I still want to kick Riordan's bum for playing a hero.  But I guess that when a game makes you care that much, it really shows you how good it is.

My current Warden is my favourite so far. She's the one I hope to continue with in Awakening. So, I hope I can get my "fairy tale" ending for her. I'm not awfully fond of the Dark Ritual myself and keep wondering about the consequences of it. But I guess it would have been way too easy without conflicts such as these (doing the DR, whether you let Loghain live, whether you kill Flemeth, etc.). And come to think of it, if you really care about both of you surviving, either as lovers or friends, persuading Alistair into... caboodling Morrigan is a relatively small price to pay. Let's just hope the baby won't return to doom us all. 

As you say, I'd also like to have a happy ending from time to time. Tragic endings are cool and all and but are really bad for my nerves. 

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 03 août 2012 - 07:51 .

[WraithTDK]

Vanilka of the Sword Coast wrote... But the ending I got surpassed all my expectations - in a bad way. When they defeated the Archie, Alistair just didn't give my Warden a chance and ran off to die. 

 Really? Huh. Guess that's what you miss when you play a male almost exclusively. That's beautiful, though. Frankly, anything less just wouldn't be Alistair. Poor guy.

Now I have to see this. TO YOUTUBE!

On the other hand, I always do the DR, and it's so much easier on Guys than women. Women romancing Alistair have to chose between death, sacrificing their love, or watching him bed Morrigan. For me, the DR provided for the perfect ending. My warden spent his last, uncertain night with the woman he'd had a long, rocky yet passionate relationship with; swore during the corronation to find her, and concluded the DA experience by walking into an uncertain future through the mirror at her side. Hardly a conclusive ending, but by far the best one can achieve in the game, IMO.

Modifié par WraithTDK, 03 août 2012 - 01:09 .