55 réponses à ce sujet

[Vanilka]

WraithTDK wrote...
 Really? Huh. Guess that's what you miss when you play a male almost exclusively. That's beautiful, though. Frankly, anything less just wouldn't be Alistair. Poor guy.

Now I have to see this. TO YOUTUBE!

 
Yes. He kissed her goodbye and ran off. There's no way to stop him if he's there with you. I don't remember the last time I was this heartbroken over a piece of fiction. I think someone has even made a mod so that your Warden could punch him and deliver the final blow herself.
But you're right, it is beautiful. Tragic, devastating, but beautiful.
I guess I should have seen that coming. As you say, that's exactly something he would do.

WraithTDK wrote...
On the other hand, I always do the DR, and it's so much easier on Guys than women. Women romancing Alistair have to chose between death, sacrificing their love, or watching him bed Morrigan. For me, the DR provided for the perfect ending. My warden spent his last, uncertain night with the woman he'd had a long, rocky yet passionate relationship with; swore during the corronation to find her, and concluded the DA experience by walking into an uncertain future through the mirror at her side. Hardly a conclusive ending, but by far the best one can achieve in the game, IMO.

I don't really want to complain about how male Wardens have it easier as I haven't played many male characters yet. But I must admit it does seem so to me so far. When I played a male character I wasn't torn about it at all. I only cared about whether the baby wouldn't get hurt and whether it could become a threat in the future. As a result, my male Warden got a great ending. I was really surprised.

I'm just before the Dark Ritual in my current playthrough. I'm going to try it with a female Warden
for the first time. I'm not looking forward to it.  But I think the ending is going to be worth it.

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 03 août 2012 - 09:39 .

[tpp]

I don't really want to complain about how male Wardens have it easier as I haven't played many male characters yet. But I must admit it does seem so to me so far. When I played a male character I wasn't torn about it at all.

In my first playthrough, I was. I definitely was. My Warden was a noble hero, always ready to sacrifice his own interests for the good of others. He was originally smitten with Morrigan, entranced by her combination of thoughtfulness, power, beauty, and vulnerability. But he willingly dropped that when she asked to, deciding that she was too willful and independent to ever have a healthy relationship with. Later, as he (and I) discovered Leliana's past, she started to look a lot less like a foolish church girl and more like a struggling soul in search of strength, direction, and redemption. After confronting Marjolaine, he helped Leliana see that her struggle was at the heart of her ultimate goodness ("Evil doesn't worry about not being Good."), and a romance started soon after. For the rest of their adventures together, the Warden ended every night at camp listening to one of her stories, just to hear her voice before going to bed (with her, naturally). He promised her that when their battles were done, they would travel the land together in search of adventure.

At the Landsmeet, my Warden ensured that Alistair would take the throne, without Anora. While the Warden respected her political skills, he felt she was far too ambitious and morally slippery to rule the land. Alistair, while still a bit soft, was his grudging choice for king.

Had Morrigan never made her proposition, the Warden would have willingly sacrificed himself in the name of necessity, since Alistair needed to survive to take the throne. But the ritual... it was an out. He knew it was wrong, horribly wrong - apart from creating some seriously creepy old-god-child, he'd be physically cheating on Leliana with his old flame. And he knew that he should be the one to make the sacrifice. But he had promised Leliana that they would travel the world together, and this was a chance to make good on that promise. And to live, sure. But more importantly, to live with her by his side. He just couldn't give up Leliana, and agreed to Morrigan's proposition with a heart full of dread and guilt. As strong and noble as he had been, he was too weak to follow the path he knew was right.




Looking back on it, I think this was possibly my favorite moment in a lifetime of gaming (as far as stories and characters go, that is). I saved and ended the play session at the next opportunity, and spent the rest of the night feeling dirty. It didn't help that when I told my wife about it, she was appalled at my decision, having followed the Warden's exploits to date. It was really quite an experience, certainly the highlight (lowlight?) of the game for me.

[WraithTDK]

Vanilka of the Sword Coast wrote...
I don't really want to complain about how male Wardens have it easier as I haven't played many male characters yet. But I must admit it does seem so to me so far. When I played a male character I wasn't torn about it at all. I only cared about whether the baby wouldn't get hurt and whether it could become a threat in the future. As a result, my male Warden got a great ending. I was really surprised.

Yuppers. Honestly, if I wasn't going to play the DLC, I would have chosenthe ultimate sacrifice ending. That's actually what I chose the first time I played; I didn't really like the idea of putting a child into such a mess. But on the practical side, I really wanted to play Awakening, Golems and Witch Hunt with my warden, and it just wouldn't make sense with the sacrifice ending. 

The more I thought about it, though, it came down to the fact that you can can follow her, even though she leaves. When I look at the game from the moment I encountered Morrigan to the moment I stepped through the mirror...it's a perfect story.

[WraithTDK]

NATURALLY this is the one ending I can't seem to find on youtube. GRRRR! 

Found it. I was expecting his entire dialogue to be different. I see what you mean about not getting a choice.

Modifié par WraithTDK, 04 août 2012 - 12:05 .

[Fiacre]

WraithTDK wrote...

The more I thought about it, though, it came down to the fact that you can can follow her, even though she leaves. When I look at the game from the moment I encountered Morrigan to the moment I stepped through the mirror...it's a perfect story.

It is a beautiful story. While it's not my canon, Morrigan's is my favourite romance (can't really call arranging a marriage with Anora a proper romance, unfortunately) and this is pretty much what I'm currently doing with my mage. If it weren't for Anora, the Warden leaving with Morrigan would be my preferred ending (and is for all non-Couslands. And even some Couslands do it.)

And I feel so alone with not feeling conflicted about the DR at all. I even once chose not to romance Morrigan when I realized that my character would have a fit and might just turn it down thinking she only used him and I didn't want to sit there and be all "Stop whining and have some creepy ritual sex so we can get on with the story :/"

[Vanilka]

@tpp
That's a wonderful story. I can see how your character could be conflicted about it and I think I understand. If you romance Leliana, you basically have to cheat on her. It's the same if you romance Zevran, as my Human Noble did. But I don't think that either Leliana or Zevran would prefer their lover to die. I think that staying with your love interest is the most powerful reason to stay alive if you play the type of character you did. My HN was also rather virtuous a man, a gentleman with a good heart, but he felt it was not worth losing Zev over this. Did he feel guilty afterwards? Yes. Did he regret it in the end? Not at all.

I thought about it and were I in that situation, I wouldn't hesitate a second about pushing my significant other into doing it. It may be painful, but nowhere near as painful as letting the person die. Come to think of it, not only to die but to let his soul be destroyed. As for the "creepy god child" you and WraithTDK mentioned, Morrigan may be a lot of things, but she's definitely not stupid and I doubt she would do anything that could bring doom upon the world, and the more I play the game, the more I believe she will actually make a fairly good mother. She has her quirks but she obviously doesn't approve of how Flemeth brought her up. But that's my opinion.

But yes, with some characters, it's not a simple decision to make. I'm glad someone with a more conflicted male character posted their experience.


@WraithTDK
I was actually going for the ultimate sacrifice ending, too. It made the most sense for the character. But, as I said, I was taken by surprise. And I got this wonderful, wonderful Warden-Commander achievement that says I commanded Alistair to do it. I so don't want to have this lie amongst my badges.

As for the baby, I know what you mean. During my first playthrough, the DR just seemed to be wrong on so many levels my Warden didn't even let poor Morrigan finish talking and refused to even discuss the idea. However, the more I play, the more it appears to me that it sounds more dire than it really is. The choice depends on the character I roleplay, but I, personally, consider Morrigan to be smart enough not to want to put the world and, consequently, herself into danger. I also do believe she will treat the child sensibly and well. Moreover, Morrigan herself said that there would be no baby and thus no soul to talk about yet at the moment of slaying the Archie. The old god basically fills an empty space prepared for him and the baby, which is pretty much non-existent at that time, isn't hurt in any way, from what I understand. Which is reassuring enough for me.
As for my Wardens, some think in a similar way and some don't. My current Warden simply trusts Morrigan to know what she's doing.

As you said, I guess it's also a practical thing to do if you want to continue the additional content with your Warden. The fact it turned into a great ending is a nice bonus. I have to try this one someday.

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 04 août 2012 - 11:49 .

[WraithTDK]

 It sounds like we play the same way, it's not so much a mere game to be won as the writing of a story, no? Here's how I wrote my warden's story in my mind:
 
The way my warden/I rationalize the DR is as much about Morrigan as anything else. I use the Morrigan restoration patch, and I time the conversations out so the relationship evolves over time, and the scene where she smacks him and really confesses her love is just before the Landsmeet; fresh in the Warden's mind. After Rhiordan spoke, he was ready to die for Fereldan, but when he sees Morrigan in his room, he realizes it's not just about death for him. Morrigan's shell has been cracked. Her outlook on the world, and how she dealt with it, was hard enough when she was simply hardwired to be a selfish ****; but at that point, she'd evolved, and it was the warden's fault. What would hapen if he died at that point? She'd just learned how to love. What would it do to her if he died now? And where would she go? The only other person in the world that she cared or respected at all (notice she sets up her tent apart from everyone else in camp? She hadn't bonded with anyone else) was her mother, who had been exposed as prepping Morrigan as her vessel, shortly before I jammed my Starfang through her head. In short, refusing the DR didn't just mean abandoning my life. It meant abandonding her. And right or wrong, that was something he simply could not do. So they spent that final night together. And when Archdemon was felled, and the coronation was over, he said his goodbys, and he left to find her.

It would take him quite some time to track down a shape-shifting witch that did not want to be found, and Vigil's keep and the subsequent gollum incident shows that he still didn't abandon his duty; but ultimately, true to his word, he found her. And when he did, he swore he'd never leave her side again. And together, they stepped through the mirror, into the unknown.

[Wulfram]

My first unspoiled playthrough was pretty successful. Side with Anora, feed Loghain to Archdemon, leave with Leliana. Though my warden did kind of resent Loghain getting to go out a hero.

[Vanilka]

WraithTDK wrote...
It sounds like we play the same way, it's not so much a mere game to be won as the writing of a story, no?

Well said, that's exactly it. That's why I love RPGs so much. You can be a part of the story, influence it and add the details in your mind because there's so much space for it. It's like reading an amazing fantasy book but with you/your own character in it. I must say I never look forward to finish the game, despite knowing I'm going to "win" and everything is going to end well. I hate endings, they make me feel blue.

WraithTDK wrote... 
Here's how I wrote my warden's story in my mind:
 
The way my warden/I rationalize the DR is as much about Morrigan as anything else. I use the Morrigan restoration patch, and I time the conversations out so the relationship evolves over time, and the scene where she smacks him and really confesses her love is just before the Landsmeet; fresh in the Warden's mind. After Rhiordan spoke, he was ready to die for Fereldan, but when he sees Morrigan in his room, he realizes it's not just about death for him. Morrigan's shell has been cracked. Her outlook on the world, and how she dealt with it, was hard enough when she was simply hardwired to be a selfish ****; but at that point, she'd evolved, and it was the warden's fault. What would hapen if he died at that point? She'd just learned how to love. What would it do to her if he died now? And where would she go? The only other person in the world that she cared or respected at all (notice she sets up her tent apart from everyone else in camp? She hadn't bonded with anyone else) was her mother, who had been exposed as prepping Morrigan as her vessel, shortly before I jammed my Starfang through her head. In short, refusing the DR didn't just mean abandoning my life. It meant abandonding her. And right or wrong, that was something he simply could not do. So they spent that final night together. And when Archdemon was felled, and the coronation was over, he said his goodbys, and he left to find her.

It would take him quite some time to track down a shape-shifting witch that did not want to be found, and Vigil's keep and the subsequent gollum incident shows that he still didn't abandon his duty; but ultimately, true to his word, he found her. And when he did, he swore he'd never leave her side again. And together, they stepped through the mirror, into the unknown.

Aww, the forums seem to be full of touching stories today. I'm always glad to see a happy ending. They should include a box of tissues in the packaging of this game though.

That's definitely another very convincing motivation to do the Dark Ritual. I think that doing it not only for your Warden to survive, but simply for someone else is always a very powerful reason and it makes the game rather moving towards the end.

My Warden is a Dalish Elf and she's already lost someone she loved to the Blight, so she would do pretty much anything not to let it happen again. Let alone to let it happen this way. As a former hunter, she believes it's good to be prepared for everything and therefore also understands some of Morrigan's ways. That's one of the reasons they'd become rather close, despite not agreeing in everything. When Morrigan came to her with her offer, the Warden was desperate to try anything in order to prevent her love's death and she simply trusted her friend to genuinelly want to help. Even though she was shocked by the offer, it didn't take long for her to realise there was no other way. She didn't want to rely on Riordan or herself, getting through the bulk of the horde and to the Archdemon in one piece. Of course, she was in no hurry to die herself. She wanted to stay with her beloved. So, even though she felt terrible about it, she persuaded him to perform the ritual.
Seriously, thank the Creators for this guy's sense of humour. It didn't make it easy, but it did make it a little bit easier.
Today, my Dalish finally slew the Archdemon and joined Alistair in order to rebuild the Grey Wardens. She was sad to see Morrigan go, though. She'll always be grateful to her for saving them.

I must say this is my favourite playthrough so far. I didn't do everything right, nor did I do all the quests - for various reasons, however, none of my other Wardens and Origins touched me quite so deeply. I am really happy with the ending, too. It's been good, it's been epic.

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 04 août 2012 - 11:14 .

[WraithTDK]

Yea, I've changed things up a few times, each time, it's like I'm "fine tuning" the story, trying to get it so that it just feels perfect. I think I got it with this last one. One of the things that bothered me in previous playthroughs was having to chose between Leliana and Morrigan. They're both such great characters. I even played the game moded so I could romance them both. Still didn't feel right. This playthrough I solved that; even if it required more imagination than simply in-game stuff. In this playthrough, I focused on Morrigan, and I just imagined that Leliana ended up with Alistair. They're both such positive characters from painful backgrounds; I think they're a good match.

I finished Origins in this playthrough, so now I'm alternating between playing Awakening and "the further adventures" of my Origins crew (in other words, mod modules - Dark Times, Quests & Legends, Inverness Keep, etc.). I like the addons, because it gives the game the feel of the old pen & paper RPGs, where you could keep building your character and take him with you to stories set in the game's world, but made by the community.

[tpp]

In this playthrough, I focused on Morrigan, and I just imagined that Leliana ended up with Alistair.

They do make a nice pair. It would actually be pretty cool if the game allowed companions to romance one another. Why should the love story only be about you? But I can see how that would make the dialogue programming a nightmare. There are already enough bugs and minor bits of dialogue weirdness as it is now.

Speaking of which, has anyone else occasionally seen Leliana standing next to Sten in camp? Could be something going on there... I've seen it happen a few times now. I don't think it was tied to any other special dialogues or anything, but perhaps I just wasn't paying close enough attention.

Modifié par tpp, 05 août 2012 - 01:35 .

[monkeybiz]

I might be a bit late to the discussion but I think the reason why we all enjoy our first play through so much more is because we don't know whats going to happen. (unless you purposely go and find out before you play).

I am currently playing my 4th playthrough as a dwarf noble and I am still experimenting with the different options on what could happen if certain different scenarios play out. Its still fun and very enjoable. My current playthrough of DA:O (excluding DLCs) took 70 hours and I don't see how people do their playthroughs in 40 hours and not expect to miss crucial information. In comparison, my first playthrough was a human noble and took well over 100+ hours in Origins alone. I took the time to read the codex entries in order to understand the lore which probably added to the playing time but thats part of the fun.

I still count my first playthrough as my only genuine attempt of making a footprint on the game and is the one I import into subsequent games i.e DA2. It feels so much more satisfying when you make the decisions based on the scenario presented to you rather than specifically wanting to achieve a particular outcome.

Tthe beauty of this game is the fact there are 6 origins to choose from and each one will give you a different perspective on how the world and other NPCs interacts with you. It makes the story feel personal.

As for the dark ritual, my warden went through with it cause he was already romantically involved with Morrigan at that stage. She even mentions that it should be easy since it will be like every other night..... For my warden, it was a way out and mean I didn't have to sacrifice myself to kill the Archdemon. I could have let Alistair do it but he was going to be king so I thought I would be the one to make the sacrifice.

At the end of witch hunt, my warden decides to go through the portal with her and raise the child together. What a fitting conclusion to the Warden's story.

Modifié par monkeybiz, 05 août 2012 - 01:26 .

[WraithTDK]

 I metagame anytime a game stops being fun the ordinary way. For example, if I have the means, I will always give myself unlimited money in an RPG. I've done this going all the way back to the days of Dragon Warrior 1 for the NES, when I used a Gameshark to max out my gold, and it continues to this day, when the first thing I do upon starting a playthrough of DA is to fire up my save game editor and max out my soverigns."Oh, but that takes away some of the challenge and strategic thinking" some of you might say.
Not really. What it does is saves me four hours of mind-numbing BOREDOM running from point A to point B killing easy monsters in ultra-repetitive battles untill I have enough money to buy what I need. That's not fun, and the entire reasom I play games is to have fun. You know what fun is? Fun is less time killing random mobs and more time questing. It's being able to give Bella enough money to escape the tavern in Redcliff and still have enough to pay Kate for her sword and send her and her little brother to Denerim. That's fun. And if the game ends a little bit quicker, oh well. I've got a massive catalog of games that I have bought (Steam sales are going to be the death of me), including the Mass Effect franchise, that I haven't even started yet.

[Fiacre]

I've got to agree with that -- hell, I've metagamed the Orzammar King choice on my last playthrough because I already know all the information I can find and I *knew* what conclusion my character would come to and I really didn't want to have all the same conversations again. It's just not fun any more, at least at the moment. That's actually what I like most about first playthroughs -- the conversations are all fresh.

[tpp]

Well, "fun" is certainly up to you in the end, but DAO is one of the few RPG's I've played where money is actually significant. Even if you maximize the value of every mainline quest and do every sidequest, you can't amass enough money to buy *every* high-end item you'd want for your party unless you do potion-selling. The game isn't all that terribly hard in the first place - I'd think it would be just numbingly easy if I were walking around with Evon the Great's Mail, Chasind Crusher, Andruil's Blessing, Lifegiver, Staff of the Magister Lord, etc. at level 8. Seems a lot more fun to me to actually have to make choices about what's important.

[WraithTDK]

Not really, because you can't USE all those ultra-powerful items at level 8. You have to be strong enough to wield them first.

[Blazomancer]

After a few playthroughs, I've finally come to terms with the fact that using the console for more gold is the same as selling lyrium potions, at least for me. Crafting lyrium potions get boring with subsequent playthroughs. Then comes a time when you no longer care about gold.
It seems I hardly need money for anything with all those dlc OP items, more so if you are a dwarven noble. Reaper's cudgel to gorim is high way robbery.

[lyriumaddict104]

WraithTDK wrote...

 I metagame anytime a game stops being fun the ordinary way. For example, if I have the means, I will always give myself unlimited money in an RPG. I've done this going all the way back to the days of Dragon Warrior 1 for the NES, when I used a Gameshark to max out my gold, and it continues to this day, when the first thing I do upon starting a playthrough of DA is to fire up my save game editor and max out my soverigns."Oh, but that takes away some of the challenge and strategic thinking" some of you might say.
Not really. What it does is saves me four hours of mind-numbing BOREDOM running from point A to point B killing easy monsters in ultra-repetitive battles untill I have enough money to buy what I need. That's not fun, and the entire reasom I play games is to have fun. You know what fun is? Fun is less time killing random mobs and more time questing. It's being able to give Bella enough money to escape the tavern in Redcliff and still have enough to pay Kate for her sword and send her and her little brother to Denerim. That's fun. And if the game ends a little bit quicker, oh well. I've got a massive catalog of games that I have bought (Steam sales are going to be the death of me), including the Mass Effect franchise, that I haven't even started yet.

I agree with everything you've said. I can't mod since I play on consoles but I do find myself re-visiting areas simply to collect loot so I can try to save up enough money to at least buy one high-end item I've been coveting for a while but simply can't buy until later in the game anyway. Having a quick-start on the money thing doesn't break the game for me, actually. Like you said, I'd rather not kill my enjoyment of those areas I re-visit just because I'm constantly searching for loot. If I had a way to get lots of money early on, however devs might make that possible on consoles, I'd be happier with my experience over all.

@tpp Yes! Leliana was standing by Sten again in my latest playthrough. She had done it on a previous on and I thought it was odd and wondered if anyone else had ever had that happen before. She was standing there after a significant development in my friendship-progress with Sten, if I can call it that. I had just finished talking to him about returning his sword to him and then she was there. I kinda hoped it was a companions' romance and liked to think of it that way.

Modifié par lyriumaddict104, 22 août 2012 - 11:17 .

[lyriumaddict104]

[quote]Vanilka of the Sword Coast wrote...

@tpp
That's a wonderful story. I can see how your character could be conflicted about it and I think I understand. If you romance Leliana, you basically have to cheat on her. It's the same if you romance Zevran, as my Human Noble did. But I don't think that either Leliana or Zevran would prefer their lover to die. I think that staying with your love interest is the most powerful reason to stay alive if you play the type of character you did. My HN was also rather virtuous a man, a gentleman with a good heart, but he felt it was not worth losing Zev over this. Did he feel guilty afterwards? Yes. Did he regret it in the end? Not at all. [/quote]
That helps in making the decision to go through with the ritual in end, no matter who I play. I guess few characters or people would normally let personal preferences overshadow the need to protect the ones they love, right? I might use that for the next character to romance Leliana since it does feel like cheating, if I do the DR.

[quote] I thought about it and were I in that situation, I wouldn't hesitate a second about pushing my significant other into doing it. It may be painful, but nowhere near as painful as letting the person die. Come to think of it, not only to die but to let his soul be destroyed. As for the "creepy god child" you and WraithTDK mentioned, Morrigan may be a lot of things, but she's definitely not stupid and I doubt she would do anything that could bring doom upon the world, and the more I play the game, the more I believe she will actually make a fairly good mother. She has her quirks but she obviously doesn't approve of how Flemeth brought her up. But that's my opinion.[/quote]

I had to comment on how much I've enjoyed your posts on this thread. It's been so long since my original playthrough that I'd actually managed to forget what it felt like when I first played this game, blind so to speak. I didn't metagame so it was actually more visceral and crushing at the end when Alistair died. I had a similar experience, it was actually kind of amazing that a game would make me feel anything as if it were real life. I did play as myself, making choices I agreed with and not my character ( I just enjoy doing that) and ended up really liking Alistair. My elf mage romanced him and since I actually liked Alistair I think it was harder to take up Morrigan's offer. I was caught unawares when she asked me to do that and kind of my gut reaction was to refuse soley on the basis that I couldn't let my "boyfriend" sleep with another woman, especially not for some creepy, dark ritual I couldn't even witness (the ritual, not the love-making, not into that thankfully) and couldn't even ask about. So, at the end Alistair wouldn't let me take the blow and the congratulations post-coronation made me sick to my stomach and the "victory" felt like ashes in the mouth. It was terribly, terribly sad. His soul was actually destroyed, right? No afterlife at all, whatever form it takes in Dragon Age universe? I think that's what made it so awful. I knew he was gone forever and I couldn't take that. Makes me want to do the ritual ever since. I like your analysis of Morrigan too. Several playthroughs later I've come to realize she probably means well in her own way and wouldn't even harm the child, whatever it turns out to be. Sorry for the long post. [/quote]

[quote]As for the baby, I know what you mean. During my first playthrough, the DR just seemed to be wrong on so many levels my Warden didn't even let poor Morrigan finish talking and refused to even discuss the idea. However, the more I play, the more it appears to me that it sounds more dire than it really is. The choice depends on the character I roleplay, but I, personally, consider Morrigan to be smart enough not to want to put the world and, consequently, herself into danger. I also do believe she will treat the child sensibly and well. Moreover, Morrigan herself said that there would be no baby and thus no soul to talk about yet at the moment of slaying the Archie. The old god basically fills an empty space prepared for him and the baby, which is pretty much non-existent at that time, isn't hurt in any way, from what I understand. Which is reassuring enough for me.
As for my Wardens, some think in a similar way and some don't. My current Warden simply trusts Morrigan to know what she's doing.[/quote] Well-said. It's easier to trust her now for all the reasons you mentioned, however I couldn't get over the shock of it the very first time. On the eve of battle, of all things, that's a weighty decision to make and I regretted it later. I can't remember actually whether I'd made Alistair king or not, since I didn't know about the "hardening" thing at the time.

[Vanilka]

lyriumaddict104 wrote...
I had to comment on how much I've enjoyed your posts on this thread. It's been so long since my original playthrough that I'd actually managed to forget what it felt like when I first played this game, blind so to speak. I didn't metagame so it was actually more visceral and crushing at the end when Alistair died. I had a similar experience, it was actually kind of amazing that a game would make me feel anything as if it were real life. I did play as myself, making choices I agreed with and not my character ( I just enjoy doing that) and ended up really liking Alistair. My elf mage romanced him and since I actually liked Alistair I think it was harder to take up Morrigan's offer. I was caught unawares when she asked me to do that and kind of my gut reaction was to refuse soley on the basis that I couldn't let my "boyfriend" sleep with another woman, especially not for some creepy, dark ritual I couldn't even witness (the ritual, not the love-making, not into that thankfully) and couldn't even ask about. So, at the end Alistair wouldn't let me take the blow and the congratulations post-coronation made me sick to my stomach and the "victory" felt like ashes in the mouth. It was terribly, terribly sad. His soul was actually destroyed, right? No afterlife at all, whatever form it takes in Dragon Age universe? I think that's what made it so awful. I knew he was gone forever and I couldn't take that. Makes me want to do the ritual ever since. I like your analysis of Morrigan too. Several playthroughs later I've come to realize she probably means well in her own way and wouldn't even harm the child, whatever it turns out to be. Sorry for the long post.

Don't worry about the length. I loved reading about your experience. Especially as I can relate to your feelings so much. Thank you for sharing. 
I understand your reasons for not doing the ritual. It's quite a shock to get such an offer. As if the situation itself doesn't already feel bad enough. On the top of it, you have to make "your" love bed "your" friend with who know what results and you can't even know whether she's even telling the truth. She isn't exactly willing to share much information, too. And then you lose him in the worst way possible and can only blame yourself.
Then, of course, you get to celebrate your "victory". A happy, happy day. I was so devastated. It didn't help that the companions... everyone acted like nothing had happened. Everyone was so happy and celebrated "you" as the Hero of Ferelden. I hated them so much for it. You couldn't even talk about what happened to anyone, except for Wynne - but you had to bring that up yourself. It just made me sick. Some hero I am, I thought.
BioWare, you've shattered my heart into a million pieces. (Again.) But I bow to you. I still can't believe how much this game made me care.
I don't think I'll skip the ritual anytime soon though.

Well-said. It's easier to trust her now for all the reasons you mentioned, however I couldn't get over the shock of it the very first time. On the eve of battle, of all things, that's a weighty decision to make and I regretted it later. I can't remember actually whether I'd made Alistair king or not, since I didn't know about the "hardening" thing at the time.

Yes, it's been much easier for me since my first playthrough, as well. I agree it's a rather difficult decision under the circumstances. Especially when you're playing for the first time. The first time, it simply seemed the ritual could do more harm than good. I was also too proud and thought I would manage without it, even if it meant sacrificing my Warden. I sort of lost connection with her somewhere towards the end anyway, so I felt it wouldn't be such a terrible loss. But I didn't expect it to end like that.

As for the "hardening", I wonder how many people actually figured that out for themselves. I would have never picked that line as there are better dialogue options to choose from for that situation. I've actually never picked the line yet. I've never needed it anyway. From purely selfish perspective, I don't see the appeal in making Alistair king.

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 23 août 2012 - 10:16 .

[lyriumaddict104]

Vanilka of the Sword Coast wrote...
Don't worry about the length. I loved reading about your experience. Especially as I can relate to your feelings so much. Thank you for sharing. 
I understand your reasons for not doing the ritual. It's quite a shock to get such an offer. As if the situation itself doesn't already feel bad enough. On the top of it, you have to make "your" love bed "your" friend with who know what results and you can't even know whether she's even telling the truth. She isn't exactly willing to share much information, too. And then you lose him in the worst way possible and can only blame yourself.
Then, of course, you get to celebrate your "victory". A happy, happy day. I was so devastated. It didn't help that the companions... everyone acted like nothing had happened. Everyone was so happy and celebrated "you" as the Hero of Ferelden. I hated them so much for it. You couldn't even talk about what happened to anyone, except for Wynne - but you had to bring that up yourself. It just made me sick. Some hero I am, I thought.
BioWare, you've shattered my heart into a million pieces. (Again.) But I bow to you. I still can't believe how much this game made me care.
I don't think I'll skip the ritual anytime soon though.

I was glad to read about your experiences too since it reminded me what it's like to not know of such events ahead of time. It's as you said, Bioware did an excellent job breaking our hearts. I am glad that I didn't know beforehand. For Dragon Age II I did read ahead ( kinda a spoiler but everyone knows about this now, right?) and found out at least as much as that you need Anders with you in order to keep whichever sibling you take with you down to the Deep Roads alive. I guess I'd had enough of losing family so arbitrarily, if I can call it that, that I wanted to make sure I could keep whomever I had left, any way possible. But using the DR as an example, I'm not sure now that knowing ahead of time was even a good idea. I can't know now if even though it seemed silly I might have still cared as much about losing my sibling that way or if I"d just been angry that the devs wrote the story like that.
I had forgotten until you mentioned it that your companions didn't talk to you about losing the love of your life like that. And you're right, you only got a brief mention with Wynne and even she was kind of ready to just let it go. I thought the same thing, that I shouldn't have been named the Hero of Ferelden since the only true hero died. I think I asked for a statue to be built in his honor, rather than taking the other boons. I think that also sucked, since no one even responded to that gesture. "Hello, can't you tell I'm hurting here?" I was the only one who cared that he'd died. I agree, any Alistair Romance I have after will take the DR. After feeling all that, I'd rather give him over to another woman than lose him forever.

Well-said. It's easier to trust her now for all the reasons you mentioned, however I couldn't get over the shock of it the very first time. On the eve of battle, of all things, that's a weighty decision to make and I regretted it later. I can't remember actually whether I'd made Alistair king or not, since I didn't know about the "hardening" thing at the time.

Yes, it's been much easier for me since my first playthrough, as well. I agree it's a rather difficult decision under the circumstances. Especially when you're playing for the first time. The first time, it simply seemed the ritual could do more harm than good. I was also too proud and thought I would manage without it, even if it meant sacrificing my Warden. I sort of lost connection with her somewhere towards the end anyway, so I felt it wouldn't be such a terrible loss. But I didn't expect it to end like that.

As for the "hardening", I wonder how many people actually figured that out for themselves. I would have never picked that line as there are better dialogue options to choose from for that situation. I've actually never picked the line yet. I've never needed it anyway. From purely selfish perspective, I don't see the appeal in making Alistair king.

I think I can relate to everything you've said about you felt about the ritual and even your Warden towards the end. I guess I too thought I'd just deal with it somehow, but I probably didn't plan on letting Alistair do the deed. That's also a good point. I never would have picked that line before finding out that he misunderstands the Warden and somehow that hardens his resolve to actually do his "duty" and become King. I didn't think that line was too kind of a thing to say after what had just happened either. I believe I got thrown off there in my first playthrough. I can't remember if I persuaded him to be King at the Landsmeet or not. In playthroughs where I didn't romance him I made him King and sometimes he married Anora and I even did the Queen thing but was never his mistress. I can't decide what I want best for him. My last one I replayed my mage character just so I could fix her romance with him to be as good as possible, and I've kept him as a Warden, just to be selfish too. I have a hard time not romancing him when I start a new female character however. And my opinion of Anora keeps changing. I can't settle on whether I hate or like her. Sometimes I think he's too good to be stuck in a marriage with her and sometimes I think she's not good for Ferelden but he shouldn't rule alone (since I can't have him). Oh well. I guess all that just shows what a great game it is, and how I enjoyed playing blind the first time.

[Vanilka]

lyriumaddict104 wrote...
I was glad to read about your experiences too since it reminded me what it's like to not know of such events ahead of time. It's as you said, Bioware did an excellent job breaking our hearts. I am glad that I didn't know beforehand. For Dragon Age II I did read ahead ( kinda a spoiler but everyone knows about this now, right?) and found out at least as much as that you need Anders with you in order to keep whichever sibling you take with you down to the Deep Roads alive. I guess I'd had enough of losing family so arbitrarily, if I can call it that, that I wanted to make sure I could keep whomever I had left, any way possible.

 
 I actually didn't know. I started my first DAII playthrough several days ago. But I've heard you can (spoiler) make your sibling a Grey Warden and the fact you can take them to the Deep Roads... well, it kind of figures. My Bethany was taken by Templars. I didn't take her into the Deep Roads to protect her as I didn't know what would happen there and she was taken to the Circle in the meantime. That was sad. (spoiler)

 But using the DR as an example, I'm not sure now that knowing ahead of time was even a good idea. I can't know now if even though it seemed silly I might have still cared as much about losing my sibling that way or if I"d just been angry that the devs wrote the story like that. 

 
I agree with you it's better to go unprepared. There's beauty in not knowing what's going to happen. Just once, you can play and be surprised by everything, fully experience both the miracles and heartbreaks of the story. It's something that can be never repeated again.
I mentioned I'm in my first playthrough of DAII. (spoiler) I've decided to romance Fenris. I absolutely adore this character. Before my character spent her first night with him, I accidentaly found out that he freaks out and runs off after the act, no matter what you do or say. But that he'll be available later. I think it ruined the whole thing for me quite a bit. If I hadn't known, I'm sure I would have felt much worse about it than I actually did. His return would have also been more emotional. (spoiler)
Not knowing whether something will come to bite you in the bum is part of the fun. Some things feel different when you know what's going to happen and expect it to happen... or make something happen with that knowledge.

I had forgotten until you mentioned it that your companions didn't talk to you about losing the love of your life like that. And you're right, you only got a brief mention with Wynne and even she was kind of ready to just let it go. I thought the same thing, that I shouldn't have been named the Hero of Ferelden since the only true hero died. I think I asked for a statue to be built in his honor, rather than taking the other boons. I think that also sucked, since no one even responded to that gesture. "Hello, can't you tell I'm hurting here?" I was the only one who cared that he'd died. I agree, any Alistair Romance I have after will take the DR. After feeling all that, I'd rather give him over to another woman than lose him forever. 

 
This. I felt it was not justified. To be honest, I think that the Warden's companions get shamelessly overlooked in general. Did you notice how everybody only thanks your Warden? Hello, there were two of us last time I checked! No matter how big your party is, your Warden is usually the only one who gets her boots licked.

That's also a good point. I never would have picked that line before finding out that he misunderstands the Warden and somehow that hardens his resolve to actually do his "duty" and become King. I didn't think that line was too kind of a thing to say after what had just happened either. I believe I got thrown off there in my first playthrough.

Exactly. No matter what kind of character I play, I always tend to have a soft spot for my companions. That's why I prefer to be generally supportive of them. Telling somebody that he should learn to count only on himself is not how I imagine a supportive friendship. Or any other warm relationship for that matter. Well, I guess such things can be simply roleplayed. But that really requires you to know about the hardening line.
Someone told me the line isn't probably meant to be as harsh as it sounds, too. You say he misunderstands it? I guess that's good to know. I'm curious about his hardened personality. The line is the only obstacle. Ah, I'll have to do it, eventually.

 I can't remember if I persuaded him to be King at the Landsmeet or not. In playthroughs where I didn't romance him I made him King and sometimes he married Anora and I even did the Queen thing but was never his mistress. I can't decide what I want best for him. My last one I replayed my mage character just so I could fix her romance with him to be as good as possible, and I've kept him as a Warden, just to be selfish too. I have a hard time not romancing him when I start a new female character however. And my opinion of Anora keeps changing. I can't settle on whether I hate or like her. Sometimes I think he's too good to be stuck in a marriage with her and sometimes I think she's not good for Ferelden but he shouldn't rule alone (since I can't have him). Oh well. I guess all that just shows what a great game it is, and how I enjoyed playing blind the first time.

If you had made him king and hadn't hardened him, you would probably remember because he would have dumped you. I'm sure you would remember something like that. 
I've made him a king only once so far. That was when I played a male Warden. I also made him marry Anora. Poor thing. However, it was interesting to see a different ending. It was also interesting to get yelled at by Alistair for making him rule.  I'd never got yelled at by him before. And, of course, to see him giving the speech before the final battle.
My favourite ending is when he stays a Grey Warden though. He doesn't care about being a king and before the Landsmeet, he tells you he actually likes being a Warden. I don't care about being a queen in the slightest and even less about being a king's mistress for that matter. Anora is available and she's always been a decent queen. Problem solved. Well, at least for me.
Moreover, "I'm" a Grey Warden. What do I care about who rules Ferelden as long as the way to the Archie is clear? Eamon deserves to be kicked for dragging the Wardens into all that political mess.
However, I like to try different endings so I'm planning to make one of my Wardens rule with Alistair, another one a king's mistress and also the ultimate sacrifice ending. I'm quite curious about those.

I love that there's still so much to do, even after you finish the game. I have games I've played once and have never returned to them ever since. But I keep replaying DA:O again and again and still keep finding new things.

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 24 août 2012 - 03:28 .

[lyriumaddict104]

Vanilka of the Sword Coast wrote...

 I actually didn't know. I started my first DAII playthrough several days ago. But I've heard you can (spoiler) make your sibling a Grey Warden and the fact you can take them to the Deep Roads... well, it kind of figures. My Bethany was taken by Templars. I didn't take her into the Deep Roads to protect her as I didn't know what would happen there and she was taken to the Circle in the meantime. That was sad. (spoiler)

Heh. I thought I might be ruining it as I was typing that and I didn't listen. I'm sorry. I've played it several ways now with taking or not taking either sibling. Yours was a good reason to leave Bethany behind. I think I was not so smart in my choice to take her in one playthrough. Maybe it's getting used to how things do come back to bite you in the ass in this sequel, more so than DA:O possibly. (I mean Zevran never tries to kill you in your sleep, right?) It is sad though that she's taken. I was actually angry and felt like I'd failed her since I wasn't there to protect her. But good story, it got me emotionally involved.

I agree with you it's better to go unprepared. There's beauty in not knowing what's going to happen. Just once, you can play and be surprised by everything, fully experience both the miracles and heartbreaks of the story. It's something that can be never repeated again.
I mentioned I'm in my first playthrough of DAII. (spoiler) I've decided to romance Fenris. I absolutely adore this character. Before my character spent her first night with him, I accidentaly found out that he freaks out and runs off after the act, no matter what you do or say. But that he'll be available later. I think it ruined the whole thing for me quite a bit. If I hadn't known, I'm sure I would have felt much worse about it than I actually did. His return would have also been more emotional. (spoiler)
Not knowing whether something will come to bite you in the bum is part of the fun. Some things feel different when you know what's going to happen and expect it to happen... or make something happen with that knowledge.

I agree, it really is only just once that you can experience everything for the first time, but that makes one either love or hate a game. It leaves a lasting impression based on how intense the first playthrough, blind, really was I guess. I should be more careful...sometimes in reading threads here one never knows what one might accidentally learn. I was coming here before I started DAII or before I'd done everything. And the romances are a good example of what can be ruined if you find out ahead. I like what you said. That you don't know he's going to leave but it actually affects you more if it stays that way.  He is my favorite romance. I've tried them all but I fell for him for my first playthrough. My mage romanced him, lol. I had to say this somewhere but I so wish now that we could have seen him with his armor off (at least to see his torso) at some point in the game (since that's not possbile without mods). That's the only regret I have of the less exposed "sex scenes" with our characters. There are some quests I replay a certain way, using prior knowledge, just because I'm still upset by how characters have treated my Hawke, but even so it does take some of the fun out of the experience. You hardly feel Fenris' absence though, so forgiving him isn't so hard for me, maybe it should be? It feels like he hardly left.

This. I felt it was not justified. To be honest, I think that the Warden's companions get shamelessly overlooked in general. Did you notice how everybody only thanks your Warden? Hello, there were two of us last time I checked! No matter how big your party is, your Warden is usually the only one who gets her boots licked.

Yes, and I guess I make a point as often as I can to say I didn't do it alone when I get the chance. I have played other games where you do everything yourself and don't have a party that you travel with so since we do in DA I feel more strongly that I didn't make the effort on my own. It's easier to wish the others were congratulated as well. And even if Alistair is still alive, king or no, he doesn't go with you outside wherever the crowd cheers for you. It's nice we got to use it as a way to say goodbye to our companions but I would have liked it more if we'd all been presented to the public even if they still called me the hero. At least it would have been shown I had help.

Exactly. No matter what kind of character I play, I always tend to have a soft spot for my companions. That's why I prefer to be generally supportive of them. Telling somebody that he should learn to count only on himself is not how I imagine a supportive friendship. Or any other warm relationship for that matter. Well, I guess such things can be simply roleplayed. But that really requires you to know about the hardening line.Someone told me the line isn't probably meant to be as harsh as it sounds, too. You say he misunderstands it? I guess that's good to know. I'm curious about his hardened personality. The line is the only obstacle. Ah, I'll have to do it, eventually.

 
I agree completely. I only once played a character that was just mean to everybody (I just figured I witness all the bad you can do in one person since I can't be mean to my companions or unless it's seriously warranted somehow) so each of my characters has also been supportive. That's why they're fighting with us, right? I hope it's not giving too much away but he thinks you mean it for him, and not to explain his sister's behavior. I guess I can see how it may not seem as harsh but when you have the option to say it it does. I felt like he needed more encouragement or sympathy and that line seemed to have no way of offering such. I do like his personality however, after the "hardening". It's worth a try if you want to or can fit it into one of your roles. It's interesting to see Alistair with more self-confidence. 

If you had made him king and hadn't hardened him, you would probably remember because he would have dumped you. I'm sure you would remember something like that. 
I've made him a king only once so far. That was when I played a male Warden. I also made him marry Anora. Poor thing. However, it was interesting to see a different ending. It was also interesting to get yelled at by Alistair for making him rule.  I'd never got yelled at by him before. And, of course, to see him giving the speech before the final battle.
My favourite ending is when he stays a Grey Warden though. He doesn't care about being a king and before the Landsmeet, he tells you he actually likes being a Warden. I don't care about being a queen in the slightest and even less about being a king's mistress for that matter. Anora is available and she's always been a decent queen. Problem solved. Well, at least for me.
Moreover, "I'm" a Grey Warden. What do I care about who rules Ferelden as long as the way to the Archie is clear? Eamon deserves to be kicked for dragging the Wardens into all that political mess.
However, I like to try different endings so I'm planning to make one of my Wardens rule with Alistair, another one a king's mistress and also the ultimate sacrifice ending. I'm quite curious about those.

I love that there's still so much to do, even after you finish the game. I have games I've played once and have never returned to them ever since. But I keep replaying DA:O again and again and still keep finding new things.

Lol, I'm probably just blocking it is what it is. The dumping me part. I think my first playthrough was a confused mix. I didn't harden him even though I was in a romance with him but something came up where I still made him king (and possibly he chewed me out for that too) and then he dumped me because I was an elven mage but I was still in love with him and deluded so I didn't persuade him to do the DR and he died and I was the only one who still cared. I shouldn't have made him king if he was going to sacrifice himself. Oh well. I guess whatever happens I've tried several endings with him, lol. Even the one where he's exiled. That was kind of difficult, even though I was roleplaying a selfish, power-hungry evil mage (male) in a romance with Morrigan and I shouldn't have cared about hurting Alistair, lol.
All of these are good points too. Playing more for different endings has helped me to decide what role my canon character might be. I guess I do that for how I would want their world to work out and be carried over into the next game. I am anxious for DAIII to come out for that reason. So, I feel better now about not making him king for the reasons you mentioned. One, he didn't even want it in the first place, so why force him? Two, he's happy being a Grey Warden and feels like he has as much value and as much to contribute there as he would king, so why not let him stay? That's who he was before he was the only living heir anyway. And, like you said, we're not supposed to be involved in politics as GW's anyway and that's what I am no matter my background. Eamon kind of drags you into his plans for making Alistair king. I tried talking him out of it before the Landsmeet since I kind of felt bad about maybe embarrassing him there. Alistair said it would look bad for Eamon if not even we wanted Alistair to be king. You're right, Anora has experience and wants the job so problem solved. And we keep Alistair. I haven't tried the mistress thing either, don't know if I can. But it's one of the endings I have yet to complete so it's worth trying.
I agree. DA:O is one of the few that is worth replaying over and over. I think I like going back to it for more reasons than I do the sequel even. It feels like there are more variations to the endings as well as in-game choices.

Modifié par lyriumaddict104, 25 août 2012 - 10:32 .

[Vanilka]

lyriumaddict104 wrote...
Heh. I thought I might be ruining it as I was typing that and I didn't listen. I'm sorry. I've played it several ways now with taking or not taking either sibling. Yours was a good reason to leave Bethany behind. I think I was not so smart in my choice to take her in one playthrough. Maybe it's getting used to how things do come back to bite you in the ass in this sequel, more so than DA:O possibly. (I mean Zevran never tries to kill you in your sleep, right?) It is sad though that she's taken. I was actually angry and felt like I'd failed her since I wasn't there to protect her. But good story, it got me emotionally involved. 

 
Nah, you didn't ruin anything. As I said, the information I had hinted at it.
I actually don't know what's worse. To take her with you or leave her at home. As you say, after returning I felt I wasn't there when she needed me the most. I really felt she was my character's sister, I liked her and was sorry to lose her.
As you say, not knowing what to expect makes the experience stronger. Personally, I always expect everything to come to bite me in the butt. Then I'm surprised when it actually doesn't. 

I agree, it really is only just once that you can experience everything for the first time, but that makes one either love or hate a game. It leaves a lasting impression based on how intense the first playthrough, blind, really was I guess. I should be more careful...sometimes in reading threads here one never knows what one might accidentally learn. I was coming here before I started DAII or before I'd done everything. And the romances are a good example of what can be ruined if you find out ahead. I like what you said. That you don't know he's going to leave but it actually affects you more if it stays that way.  He is my favorite romance. I've tried them all but I fell for him for my first playthrough. My mage romanced him, lol.
(...) 
There are some quests I replay a certain way, using prior knowledge, just because I'm still upset by how characters have treated my Hawke, but even so it does take some of the fun out of the experience. You hardly feel Fenris' absence though, so forgiving him isn't so hard for me, maybe it should be? It feels like he hardly left.

 
Yes, reading these forums is a bit dangerous. Sometimes you discover things you don't want to know. Even if you keep to safe places and non-spoiler forums. I hate spoilers and try to avoid them but once you come here, it's improbable you'll be able to avoid all of them. No matter how careful you are.
I remember that I learnt about the possibility of making Alistair king from comments for some mod in DA Nexus. I didn't even expect any spoilers there. After that, I actually thought he has to become king. It was at the very beginning of my first playthrough and I was horrified.  Now I'm making fun of it but it pretty much ruined all the surprises. His confession about him being a prince, for example. Knowing about it may or may have not made me react differently. I'll never know. I must say I wish I could go back and experience the shock fully. Ah, well...

As for Fenris, (spoiler) I actually expected him to leave the party completely for some time after I learnt about him running off. I still curse the day I learnt about it though. It felt much differently when I expected it. Another example of a surprise ruined by knowing what's going to happen.
However, I wasn't really angry at him and I don't think I would have been even if I hadn't known. I understood why he left. I only felt it was a pity you can't help him or talk some sense into him and have to wait for three years in order to do so. I mean, THREE goddamn YEARS. For the love of gods! I think Hawke ought to have done something during such an unholy period of time. Instead, she looks like she doesn't care at all. Which definitely wasn't my case. (spoiler)

Err, maybe we should stop with those DAII spoilers before we ruin the game for somebody. I wouldn't want that. Moreover, I guess this is not the place for it. Even if it's still basically about using previous knowledge of the game for whatever purpose. I suggest we take this discussion to private messages if you're willing.

I had to say this somewhere but I so wish now that we could have seen him with his armor off (at least to see his torso) at some point in the game (since that's not possbile without mods). That's the only regret I have of the less exposed "sex scenes" with our characters.

 
 Hah. What, I'm not the only one who thinks that?
But yes, he sure dresses fast. I also don't mind fade-to-black instead of giving us the bed scene. It was executed rather nicely in DAII. Both ways have their ups and downs, in my opinion. However, I wouldn't mind a little bit of Fenris fanservice, true.

Yes, and I guess I make a point as often as I can to say I didn't do it alone when I get the chance. I have played other games where you do everything yourself and don't have a party that you travel with so since we do in DA I feel more strongly that I didn't make the effort on my own. It's easier to wish the others were congratulated as well. And even if Alistair is still alive, king or no, he doesn't go with you outside wherever the crowd cheers for you. It's nice we got to use it as a way to say goodbye to our companions but I would have liked it more if we'd all been presented to the public even if they still called me the hero. At least it would have been shown I had help.

Yes, I wish this was an option. They all did their share of fighting and helping. If the Warden had done it alone, everything would have been much more difficult. The companions don't get much recognition for their service to Ferelden. It would be pretty amazing if you could choose to present them to the crowd. They are all Heroes of Ferelden in a way after all.
I know that the game probably tries to make you feel like the best of the best. I guess that's nice in a way. I also know it's usually the leader who gets celebrated, not his soldiers. Still, it would be nice to share the attention. That's why I like to think that my characters gave some nice speech at the end, about how they all had participated. Even if it's not the same as seeing it in the game.

I agree completely. I only once played a character that was just mean to everybody (I just figured I witness all the bad you can do in one person since I can't be mean to my companions or unless it's seriously warranted somehow) so each of my characters has also been supportive. That's why they're fighting with us, right? I hope it's not giving too much away but he thinks you mean it for him, and not to explain his sister's behavior. I guess I can see how it may not seem as harsh but when you have the option to say it it does. I felt like he needed more encouragement or sympathy and that line seemed to have no way of offering such. I do like his personality however, after the "hardening". It's worth a try if you want to or can fit it into one of your roles. It's interesting to see Alistair with more self-confidence.

That's what I think. Friends or lovers should feel for and, as you say, encourage each other. Good leader should be supportive and motivate. That's what I believe in and that's how I play most of my games. The line doesn't feel that way, that's why I would never use it if I didn't know about how it changes his character. I guess metagaming can be good... sometimes.

Lol, I'm probably just blocking it is what it is. The dumping me part. I think my first playthrough was a confused mix. I didn't harden him even though I was in a romance with him but something came up where I still made him king (and possibly he chewed me out for that too) and then he dumped me because I was an elven mage but I was still in love with him and deluded so I didn't persuade him to do the DR and he died and I was the only one who still cared. I shouldn't have made him king if he was going to sacrifice himself. Oh well. I guess whatever happens I've tried several endings with him, lol. Even the one where he's exiled. That was kind of difficult, even though I was roleplaying a selfish, power-hungry evil mage (male) in a romance with Morrigan and I shouldn't have cared about hurting Alistair, lol.

Hah, I'm only lucky I've never cared about making him a king. Otherwise, I think I would have got dumped, too. Not having known about the hardening line and everything. With how people treat elves, I knew my girl wouldn't have been able to become a queen. But I wouldn't have expected him to dump her either. I guess this is one of the places that will always be a subject of heavy planning once you finish your first playthrough. The same with the Dark Ritual. The same with sparing Loghain.
I don't know whether I would have spared him during my first playthrough if I hadn't known Alistair leaves you if you do. Another unfortunate spoiler that made the decision easier for me. Some of my characters are rather pragmatic and would be willing to overlook Loghain's being a paranoid idiot. From roleplaying perspective, you can always have your revenge later. And another Warden would come in handy. But I've never spared him and probably never will because I value the companion that had been loyaly standing at my side the whole time much more than a potentional Warden that spent the whole game trying to kill us and making it difficult for us. I always metagame a little there. Always find a different reason for executing Loghain.

All of these are good points too. Playing more for different endings has helped me to decide what role my canon character might be. I guess I do that for how I would want their world to work out and be carried over into the next game. I am anxious for DAIII to come out for that reason. So, I feel better now about not making him king for the reasons you mentioned. One, he didn't even want it in the first place, so why force him? Two, he's happy being a Grey Warden and feels like he has as much value and as much to contribute there as he would king, so why not let him stay? That's who he was before he was the only living heir anyway. And, like you said, we're not supposed to be involved in politics as GW's anyway and that's what I am no matter my background. Eamon kind of drags you into his plans for making Alistair king. I tried talking him out of it before the Landsmeet since I kind of felt bad about maybe embarrassing him there. Alistair said it would look bad for Eamon if not even we wanted Alistair to be king. You're right, Anora has experience and wants the job so problem solved. And we keep Alistair. I haven't tried the mistress thing either, don't know if I can. But it's one of the endings I have yet to complete so it's worth trying.

Oh, I could go on about the benefits of Alistair staying a Grey Warden forever.  Well, okay, not forever, but still... He just seems to be much more useful and happier where he's been the whole game. I do believe he would make a great king eventually, but Ferelden already has a queen and is in a desperate need of Grey Wardens. From pragmatic perspective, making him a king is a waste of resources. Together with other things, I simply don't see much sense in making him a king. But that's just my personal opinion.
As for Eamon. Suffice to say he doesn't care about our plans and therefore I don't care about his. But since it's at least some plan, let's play along as long as it's convenient. 

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 26 août 2012 - 07:40 .