165 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

Lycidas wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...

It's an interesting theory. Currently I'm playing a rogue and a mage, both on Medium/PC. My rogue has done 37% of her party's damage and the mage has done 70% of his. It will be interesting to see how that differs on Hard.

You know your numbers do actually say nothing right?
I could make up those nubers the other way around if I wanted.

I would guess he got them from the party damage contribution stat. I *suppose* he could just be lying.... but all he has to do is post a screeny. The game sets out the percentages in black and white.

[SheffSteel]

Those are the numbers I got from this website. Any one of my friends could verify them, I suppose. But if you want to disbelieve, go right ahead. I'm sure it makes your rhetoric that much more compelling.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

7a7ec wrote...

I am playing with a mage on nightmare difilcuty and is still too easy ..... But the same could be said about warrior so mages probably arent overpovered ..... Once you learn how to lvl up and which skills and talents to use its no problem to beat the game .....

Then you are not playing a solo caster mage. I'm doing a solo mage in NM. He is currently level 11. It has not been easy.  Lots of spells get resisted, even going pure magic (as I have.)

If you say caster mages in NM are easy, please post a detailed build order for Nightmare mages who want to go solo.

Notice I said "caster."  Not arcane warrior.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 18 décembre 2009 - 05:21 .

[MerinTB]

Well, other people's mileage may vary but -

my first play through as a Rogue wasn't "easy", it was challenging but no real problem. I had a blast.

This is my second play through, and it may be due to doing things in a different order who having to switch party members occasionally (the final three I wanted were all people I had to pick up later this time around, finally just got Zev) but I'm having a much harder time.

And I'm playing a mage. *shrug*

But I'm not playing a min/max mage, so that'll dismiss me from half the people's estimation, unfortunately.

I've said this ad nauseam elsewhere so I'll be very brief here -
The effectiveness of the mage depends on the build. I think many people find mages OP because you can tailor them to handle specific situations and with so many spells they have so many uses that you pick a situation, you can load out spells to make that situation relatively simple (all the "against mages use Mana Clash" or "to tank take Arcane Warrior" responses.) For the other two classes, really no matter how you build them, they are straight-forward doing a few things that you cannot really tailor for situations in the same way.

I am having no difficulty getting through the game - but this run is no different than my previous one - my mage (unfortunately now, my MC) is the first person to go down in a fight. Now, unlike my Rogue, I have to run and hide my mage after a few spells or he usually gets slaughtered. Oghren and Shale are just starting at current levels (I'm around 13-14) to pull aggro enough that I can cast a few spells without concern. But let me tell you who's won my big fights - Shale. Especially the Branka fight.

For character development/story/RP purposes I have a specific build in mind for my character. This means he has no healing spells, no paralysis spells, only the fire line of primal, no Arcane Warrior. Some would say this is "gimping" and "not using the tools available to you" - and I call it using different options. It's not like I'm not picking spells and not using the spells I pick, I'm just not using the ones that most people find "uber."

Again, your mileage may vary.

Modifié par MerinTB, 18 décembre 2009 - 05:31 .

[LightSabres]

themaxzero wrote...


As a general rule Arcane Warrior does not make Mages dramatically stronger. If you put massive plate on a Mage the fatigue costs are huge. The best armour you can give a good casting Mage is Medium Wades Dragonscale which gives about the same armour as Reaper's vestments.

My casting Mage runs at about 20 armour. Anymore begins costing heavy fatigue.

You didn't look at the armor very well did you?

I'm running Wade's Heavy Dragonscale Armor + Helm of Honneleath and my fatigue is only 4.8% (with a 27 AC) on my Arcane Warrior.  WELL WORTH THE 5%.  Once you start adding the armor /defence buffs it goes up but only 5% fatigue per buff except for combat magic.  Opening Salvo in most fights is:  CoC, Stone fist shatter one, Imprison shatter a second.  And I still have enough mana to cast other spells....

[XOGHunter246]

LightSabres wrote...

themaxzero wrote...


As a general rule Arcane Warrior does not make Mages dramatically stronger. If you put massive plate on a Mage the fatigue costs are huge. The best armour you can give a good casting Mage is Medium Wades Dragonscale which gives about the same armour as Reaper's vestments.

My casting Mage runs at about 20 armour. Anymore begins costing heavy fatigue.

You didn't look at the armor very well did you?

I'm running Wade's Heavy Dragonscale Armor + Helm of Honneleath and my fatigue is only 4.8% (with a 27 AC) on my Arcane Warrior.  WELL WORTH THE 5%.  Once you start adding the armor /defence buffs it goes up but only 5% fatigue per buff except for combat magic.  Opening Salvo in most fights is:  CoC, Stone fist shatter one, Imprison shatter a second.  And I still have enough mana to cast other spells....

petrify another great spell as good as cone of cold 

[Rainen89]

Petrify is kind've underwhelming considering it's a four tier spell and only affects one target. It's not bad though.

[XOGHunter246]

Rainen89 wrote...

Petrify is kind've underwhelming considering it's a four tier spell and only affects one target. It's not bad though.

Yes i typo i meant to put a  almost somewhere in my sentence lol it good back up spell in case and is earth based 

Modifié par XOGHunter246, 18 décembre 2009 - 06:10 .

[Brunopolis]

MerinTB wrote...

Well, other people's mileage may vary but -

my first play through as a Rogue wasn't "easy", it was challenging but no real problem. I had a blast.

This is my second play through, and it may be due to doing things in a different order who having to switch party members occasionally (the final three I wanted were all people I had to pick up later this time around, finally just got Zev) but I'm having a much harder time.

And I'm playing a mage. *shrug*

But I'm not playing a min/max mage, so that'll dismiss me from half the people's estimation, unfortunately.

I've said this ad nauseam elsewhere so I'll be very brief here -
The effectiveness of the mage depends on the build. I think many people find mages OP because you can tailor them to handle specific situations and with so many spells they have so many uses that you pick a situation, you can load out spells to make that situation relatively simple (all the "against mages use Mana Clash" or "to tank take Arcane Warrior" responses.) For the other two classes, really no matter how you build them, they are straight-forward doing a few things that you cannot really tailor for situations in the same way.

I am having no difficulty getting through the game - but this run is no different than my previous one - my mage (unfortunately now, my MC) is the first person to go down in a fight. Now, unlike my Rogue, I have to run and hide my mage after a few spells or he usually gets slaughtered. Oghren and Shale are just starting at current levels (I'm around 13-14) to pull aggro enough that I can cast a few spells without concern. But let me tell you who's won my big fights - Shale. Especially the Branka fight.

For character development/story/RP purposes I have a specific build in mind for my character. This means he has no healing spells, no paralysis spells, only the fire line of primal, no Arcane Warrior. Some would say this is "gimping" and "not using the tools available to you" - and I call it using different options. It's not like I'm not picking spells and not using the spells I pick, I'm just not using the ones that most people find "uber."

Again, your mileage may vary.

What min maxing are you talking about?  I played a pure primal mage with only 1 point in healing and specced as a blood mage all the way.  Every battle was an absolute joke.  Blood wound, fireball, cone of cold, gg.

Mages are ridiculous and it's surprising people claim that they are not.  They are the best DPSers, CCers, (only) Healers, and tanks ALL at the same time!

The only thing that might ever compete with a mage would be a rogue specced ranger with momentum(also an OP skill and spec when compared to the alternatives).

Every RPG generally has a broken combo of skills but in DAO it's super easy to set up an OP mage without even wanting to.

[SheffSteel]

Mages are inherently overpowered. At any level above 3 or 4, they have more tactical options than any other class at the same level. That's because of the number of spells available. Even though warriors and rogues have abilities that can get similar results, they are invariably limited, by their stamina cost, by their cooldown time, or both. Mages have more options for crowd control, more ways to damage single or multiple enemies, more ways to protect themselves from damage, and enough mana to choose "(d) all of the above".

Modifié par SheffSteel, 18 décembre 2009 - 06:22 .

[XOGHunter246]

I have feeling people just want to say something everyone knows is overpowered is not for the sake of it. All the freezing, sleep, hexes, paralyzing the list could go on.............

[Aesira]

Mages were OP in every sigle RPG/DND as soon as they got their first Fireball spell slot

And this goes on and on with every game since then...

Diablo, only mage could one-shot anything except few bosses, and having mana shield and constantly teleporting around, haha

Melting faces in Fable2 so hard - Summon Spirits, Inferno, Inferno, Inferno, collect orbs

Baldur's Gate 1 - web, fireball fireball fireball

Baldur's Gate 2 - Timestop and well, if you dont even feel like casting something, just beat them to death with your staff of magi

Neverwinter Nights, Invisibility and go on pew pew

and so and on and on



As already stated, Mages start out slow ( there is nothing more vulnerable in the adnd world than lvl 1 mage with 4 hitpoints and 1 magic missile, hahaha), but eventually they get to be demigods

If it does not suit your style, errr, just dont play one?

[Tirigon]

I agree mages have more tactical options, are better at crowd control and are more fun. But they are not as such Overpowered. Their survivability is the worst of all (and even as Full tank AW it´s only even, not better, to a good tank warrior), their damage is sucky (AoE notwithstanding, I talk about single-target damage), their disable will be resisted quite often when playing on nightmare (and against strong bosses even on lower difficulties) and using them correctly is a lot harder than with warriors and rogues.

And to the issue with "Warriors and rogues are limited by their mana cost": In my experience, the mage is the first to go OOM. And warriors or rogues dont even neeed stamina.

Warrior: Stand there, be nearly invulnerable, and strike with imba autohit-damage.

Rogue: Stand behind your enemy, put momentum on, and watch hitting with crits all the time at a ridiculous speed = even better autohit-damage than warrior.

[MerinTB]

Right, I forgot, I cannot possibly have my own opinion. I cannot possibly be experiencing what I am, I'm obviously ignoring the obvious.



There are days one wonders why one bothers trying to contribute to conversations.



Mages are OP to you. They are not to me.



And I'm done with this thread, too. Carry on as you will.

[XOGHunter246]

Tirigon wrote...

I agree mages have more tactical options, are better at crowd control and are more fun. But they are not as such Overpowered. Their survivability is the worst of all (and even as Full tank AW it´s only even, not better, to a good tank warrior), their damage is sucky (AoE notwithstanding, I talk about single-target damage), their disable will be resisted quite often when playing on nightmare (and against strong bosses even on lower difficulties) and using them correctly is a lot harder than with warriors and rogues.
And to the issue with "Warriors and rogues are limited by their mana cost": In my experience, the mage is the first to go OOM. And warriors or rogues dont even neeed stamina.
Warrior: Stand there, be nearly invulnerable, and strike with imba autohit-damage.
Rogue: Stand behind your enemy, put momentum on, and watch hitting with crits all the time at a ridiculous speed = even better autohit-damage than warrior.

reason why mages have low hp is because they overpowered balance imagine fighting as a mage with 400 hp you be unstoppable. 

Modifié par XOGHunter246, 18 décembre 2009 - 07:00 .

[JaegerBane]

Brunopolis wrote...
Mages are ridiculous and it's surprising people claim that they are not.  They are the best DPSers, CCers, (only) Healers, and tanks ALL at the same time!

Utter rubbish. In order to be the best tanks in the game Mages have to choose AW, suit up in Massive armour, and switch on every defence spell they've got. With that kind of Fatigue and Upkeep their DPS and CC goes down the toilet, as they're limited to a few cheap spells and auto-attack .

Mages can make a damn good attempt at all of the categories, true, as is normal in RPGs (how many RPGs have you played where rogues were better crowd controllers and Warriors were better healers, hmm?) but to do so requires a very solid powerbuild and the idea they can do it all at once is nonsense.

[Marionetten]

Mages are better at crowd control?



Taunt would like to have a word with you all.

[WillieStyle]

JaegerBane wrote...

Brunopolis wrote...
Mages are ridiculous and it's surprising people claim that they are not.  They are the best DPSers, CCers, (only) Healers, and tanks ALL at the same time!

Utter rubbish. In order to be the best tanks in the game Mages have to choose AW, suit up in Massive armour, and switch on every defence spell they've got. With that kind of Fatigue and Upkeep their DPS and CC goes down the toilet, as they're limited to a few cheap spells and auto-attack .

This is a lie.
There are heavy/massive armor sets that give so much -fatigue, that their total fatigue level is ~5%.
There are numerous mana regen items in game that allow an arcane warrior to overcome most of the penalties from abilities like shimmering shield.
Finally, there's the ultimate cheese: blood magic.

[Bl4ckWizh]

I find mages a whole lot easier to play than any other class so far. Also one of the most exciting origin stories.

[WillieStyle]

Marionetten wrote...

Mages are better at crowd control?

Taunt would like to have a word with you all.

Sigh!
Taunt cannot stop archers from scattershotting your party.
Taunt cannot stop arcane horros from fireballing your party.
Taunt cannot stop enemy mages from healing healing themselves and others.
I could go on.

Really, the quality of arguments on the "mage" side of this debate are really quite poor.
Hence the mage nerfs last patch.  I would expect to see more in the future.

[JaegerBane]

WillieStyle wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

Brunopolis wrote...
Mages are ridiculous and it's surprising people claim that they are not.  They are the best DPSers, CCers, (only) Healers, and tanks ALL at the same time!

Utter rubbish. In order to be the best tanks in the game Mages have to choose AW, suit up in Massive armour, and switch on every defence spell they've got. With that kind of Fatigue and Upkeep their DPS and CC goes down the toilet, as they're limited to a few cheap spells and auto-attack .

This is a lie.
There are heavy/massive armor sets that give so much -fatigue, that their total fatigue level is ~5%.
There are numerous mana regen items in game that allow an arcane warrior to overcome most of the penalties from abilities like shimmering shield.

Yes, wonderful logic. Because there is powerful gear in the game that must mean that the class in question is overpowered. I can see you thought that one through carefully, indeed.

Finally, there's the ultimate cheese: blood magic.

Sitting next to the worst specialisation in the game: Shapeshifter. What's your point?

WillieStyle wrote...
Really, the quality of arguments on the "mage" side of this debate are really quite poor.
Hence the mage nerfs last patch.  I would expect to see more in the future.

Get off your high horse, Willie. I wouldn't exactly call your own points particulalry insightful, either. They're all about screaming to high heaven about every advantage and apparently being ignorant of every disadvantage.

Except that nonsense about how gear somehow becomes a class issue.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 18 décembre 2009 - 07:16 .

[Marionetten]

WillieStyle wrote...

Sigh!
Taunt cannot stop archers from scattershotting your party.
Taunt cannot stop arcane horros from fireballing your party.
Taunt cannot stop enemy mages from healing healing themselves and others.
I could go on.

Let me educate you on the reason as to why taunt is by far the most effective crowd control tool on Nightmare. Most crowd control spells are EXTREMELY short in duration on Nightmare. As it should be as far as I'm concerned. Just forget about mindblast and crushing prison. Force field was admittedly useful for crowd control purposes before the nerf but now it's just meh. Taunt is the glaring exception to this as it doesn't possess a duration. To use MMO terms, it universally raises hate.

No, taunt won't stop anyone from healing or using abilities. What taunt will do is make everyone focus on a single heavily armored target while your party picks them apart. There is no duration and the lenient cooldown combined with the use of threaten will allow any half-decent tank to keep every single monster on him for the whole fight. Effectively this trivializes just about any encounter in the game. To use MMO terms once more, everything becomes a mere spank and tank.

Modifié par Marionetten, 18 décembre 2009 - 07:23 .

[WillieStyle]

Marionetten wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...

Sigh!
Taunt cannot stop archers from scattershotting your party.
Taunt cannot stop arcane horros from fireballing your party.
Taunt cannot stop enemy mages from healing healing themselves and others.
I could go on.

Let me educate you on the reason as to why taunt is by far the most effective crowd control tool on Nightmare. Most crowd control spells are EXTREMELY short in duration on Nightmare. As it should be as far as I'm concerned. Just forget about mindblast and crushing prison. Force field was admittedly useful for crowd control purposes before the nerf but now it's just meh.Taunt is the glaring exception to this as it doesn't possess a duration. To use MMO terms, it universally raises hate.

No, taunt won't stop anyone from healing or using abilities. What taunt will do is make everyone focus on a single heavily armored target while your party picks them apart. There is no duration and the lenient cooldown combined with the use of threaten will allow any half-decent tank to keep every single monster on him for the whole fight. Effectively this trivializes just about any encounter in the game. To use MMO terms once more, everything becomes a mere spank and tank.

This is so ridiculously wrong it's not even funny.
First of all, on nightmare, a single Force Field lasts long enough for my group to kill every single nonelite in any fight including a single elite and it's minions.
Prior to the nerf, cone of cold's duration was longer than it's cooldown ON NIGHTMARE.
A single mage has so many crowd control abilities that she can cycle through them to keep an entire screenfull of enemies locked down.

Tuant on the other hand, is a pointblank ability with limitted range.  It cannot be used to hold both melee and ranged in most encounters.
Taunt does not stop AoE abilities and disables which are the most dangerous parts of all challenging encounters in the game.
Taunt does not have infinite aggro.  It cannot overcome hex/entropic death combos for instance.

Taunt is effective at rounding up large groups of melee enemies so that they can be mowed down.  But since large group of melee enemies are the easiest encounters in this game, taunt isn't all that great.
When it comes to the most dangerous encounters in game (mages, massed groups of archers spamming scattershot) , taunt pales in comparison to the multitude of crowd control abilities a single mage can wield.

[themaxzero]

LightSabres wrote...

themaxzero wrote...


As a general rule Arcane Warrior does not make Mages dramatically stronger. If you put massive plate on a Mage the fatigue costs are huge. The best armour you can give a good casting Mage is Medium Wades Dragonscale which gives about the same armour as Reaper's vestments.

My casting Mage runs at about 20 armour. Anymore begins costing heavy fatigue.

You didn't look at the armor very well did you?

I'm running Wade's Heavy Dragonscale Armor + Helm of Honneleath and my fatigue is only 4.8% (with a 27 AC) on my Arcane Warrior.  WELL WORTH THE 5%.  Once you start adding the armor /defence buffs it goes up but only 5% fatigue per buff except for combat magic.  Opening Salvo in most fights is:  CoC, Stone fist shatter one, Imprison shatter a second.  And I still have enough mana to cast other spells....

On Nightmare my Mage drank a grand total of 3 lesser Mana pots throughout the entire campaign. Fatigue is something that is very misunderstood.

[Edelwolf]

Mages pwn, but here in this game it's not as rediculous as baldur's gate or NWN, where mages suck balls at lvl 1 and dominate on lvl 20.



Rogues can actually compete vs mobs, with traps and grens and dual wielding.

It's the warriors who disappoint, but they are not completely useless.