165 réponses à ce sujet

[themaxzero]

WillieStyle wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...

Sigh!
Taunt cannot stop archers from scattershotting your party.
Taunt cannot stop arcane horros from fireballing your party.
Taunt cannot stop enemy mages from healing healing themselves and others.
I could go on.

Let me educate you on the reason as to why taunt is by far the most effective crowd control tool on Nightmare. Most crowd control spells are EXTREMELY short in duration on Nightmare. As it should be as far as I'm concerned. Just forget about mindblast and crushing prison. Force field was admittedly useful for crowd control purposes before the nerf but now it's just meh.Taunt is the glaring exception to this as it doesn't possess a duration. To use MMO terms, it universally raises hate.

No, taunt won't stop anyone from healing or using abilities. What taunt will do is make everyone focus on a single heavily armored target while your party picks them apart. There is no duration and the lenient cooldown combined with the use of threaten will allow any half-decent tank to keep every single monster on him for the whole fight. Effectively this trivializes just about any encounter in the game. To use MMO terms once more, everything becomes a mere spank and tank.

This is so ridiculously wrong it's not even funny.
First of all, on nightmare, a single Force Field lasts long enough for my group to kill every single nonelite in any fight including a single elite and it's minions.
Prior to the nerf, cone of cold's duration was longer than it's cooldown ON NIGHTMARE.
A single mage has so many crowd control abilities that she can cycle through them to keep an entire screenfull of enemies locked down.

Tuant on the other hand, is a pointblank ability with limitted range.  It cannot be used to hold both melee and ranged in most encounters.
Taunt does not stop AoE abilities and disables which are the most dangerous parts of all challenging encounters in the game.
Taunt does not have infinite aggro.  It cannot overcome hex/entropic death combos for instance.

Taunt is effective at rounding up large groups of melee enemies so that they can be mowed down.  But since large group of melee enemies are the easiest encounters in this game, taunt isn't all that great.
When it comes to the most dangerous encounters in game (mages, massed groups of archers spamming scattershot) , taunt pales in comparison to the multitude of crowd control abilities a single mage can wield.

You have some questionable math skills. Cone of Cold prenerf had a duration of 10 seconds with a 10 second CD. On Nightmare it would be even less. A Forcefield on a boss post nerf lasts about 4 seconds.

On nightmare (especially post nerf) the best tactic is to use a buffed tank to Taunt all the mobs and then to pick them off. No worries about agro or CCs running out. With Heal costing just 25 mana base you can easily keep a tank up near forever.

When you talk AoE disables you are basically talking about Blood Wound and chained Scatter Shot. Mana Clash is very good IF it kills the Mage with the burn damage because Blood Wound requires no mana to use so even if you drain them completely they can still cast it. Ironically enough the best solution I have found (if Mana Clash does not 1 shot) is chain Knockdowns.

The best way to deal with chain Scatter Shots is with Magic though (since you can attack out of Line of Sight).

Modifié par themaxzero, 18 décembre 2009 - 08:05 .

[Marionetten]

WillieStyle wrote...

First of all, on nightmare, a single Force Field lasts long enough for my group to kill every single nonelite in any fight including a single elite and it's minions.

Even prior to the nerf it did not last long enough on a boss in order to accomplish this. It's full duration was 30 seconds and that is without factoring in the significant penalty all crowd control abilities suffer on Nightmare. Now, according to you this allowed you to clear up EVERYTHING except the boss ( need I mention that bosses are even less suspectible to crowd control with the exception of taunt? ) within that time limit. Mm, no.

Feel free to see just how long force field lasts on the first ogre now. I asssure you, it's quite pathetic. Force field was actually most potent when used together with taunt as it created an invincible tank with the full duration of the spell. It was never all that as a crowd control tool with its one minute cooldown. Especially not with cone of cold around.

WillieStyle wrote...

Prior to the nerf, cone of cold's duration was longer than it's cooldown ON NIGHTMARE.

I actually did find cone of cold unbalanced just like I find taunt unbalanced. Something was done about cone of cold and now it's time for taunt to be hit with the nerfstick. You're after balance after all, no? Or perhaps this is just another petty case of class envy?

WillieStyle wrote...

Tuant on the other hand, is a pointblank ability with limitted range.  It cannot be used to hold both melee and ranged in most encounters.

Send the warrior in alone, get as many hostiles on you as you can and then get out of sight. This will make most ranged enemies come right up to you allowing you to easily taunt the whole bunch. Then you can proceed to tearing them up at your own leisure. It's really not that hard.

WillieStyle wrote...

Taunt does not stop AoE abilities and disables which are the most dangerous parts of all challenging encounters in the game.

It makes them focus it all on your warrior. A properly built shield and sword warrior has very little to fear from AoEs and disables. Far less than an arcane warrior at any rate.

WillieStyle wrote...

Taunt does not have infinite aggro.  It cannot overcome hex/entropic death combos for instance.

Of course it doesn't increase if infinitely. This is why it's a dumb idea to use massive AoEs unless you're sure you can kill them all off. It's better to pick them off one by one starting with high priority targets.

WillieStyle wrote...

Taunt is effective at rounding up large groups of melee enemies so that they can be mowed down.  But since large group of melee enemies are the easiest encounters in this game, taunt isn't all that great.
When it comes to the most dangerous encounters in game (mages, massed groups of archers spamming scattershot) , taunt pales in comparison to the multitude of crowd control abilities a single mage can wield.

Only if you're incompetent in its use. I've never had any issues with tanking ranged opponents except the risk that comes with that initial fireball. Either you're just poor at the game or intentionally exaggerating.

Modifié par Marionetten, 18 décembre 2009 - 08:05 .

[WillieStyle]

Sigh! I don't have the energy to respond to all that but this part made me chuckle.

Send the warrior in alone, get as many hostiles on you as you can and then get out of sight. This will make most ranged enemies come right up to you allowing you to easily taunt the whole bunch. Then you can proceed to tearing them up at your own leisure. It's really not that hard.

.



Cut scene ends with my entire group bunched up with my rogue in front. 10 archers start casting scattershot as mage winds up a fireball/crushing prison. And I'm supposed to send my warrior to "round up" as many enemies as possible? How exactly. Especially when scatter shot has a massive area of effect. Seriously you sound like some one who hasn't actually played this game.

Now, with my mage, I just cast:

sleep

glyp explosion,

crushing prison/mana clash on mages

paralyze

waking nightmare

and follow up any of those with a mass paralyze and I've actually trivialized what would otherwise be a hard encounter.



Oh and if it takes you more than 30 seconds to clear a roomful of white mobs, well you're doing it wrong.

[WillieStyle]

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in.

It makes them focus it all on your warrior. A properly built shield and sword warrior has very little to fear from AoEs and disables. Far less than an arcane warrior at any rate.

I'm now convinced that you and I aren't even talking about the same game. In what sense could a "well built" warrior tank have less to fear from AoE and disables than an arcane warrior who will have higher armor and much higher resistances?

Modifié par WillieStyle, 18 décembre 2009 - 08:10 .

[themaxzero]

WillieStyle wrote...

Sigh! I don't have the energy to respond to all that but this part made me chuckle.

Send the warrior in alone, get as many hostiles on you as you can and then get out of sight. This will make most ranged enemies come right up to you allowing you to easily taunt the whole bunch. Then you can proceed to tearing them up at your own leisure. It's really not that hard.

.

Cut scene ends with my entire group bunched up with my rogue in front. 10 archers start casting scattershot as mage winds up a fireball/crushing prison. And I'm supposed to send my warrior to "round up" as many enemies as possible? How exactly. Especially when scatter shot has a massive area of effect. Seriously you sound like some one who hasn't actually played this game.
Now, with my mage, I just cast:
sleep
glyp explosion,
crushing prison/mana clash on mages
paralyze
waking nightmare
and follow up any of those with a mass paralyze and I've actually trivialized what would otherwise be a hard encounter.

Oh and if it takes you more than 30 seconds to clear a roomful of white mobs, well you're doing it wrong.

In those 'cut scene' fights Mages are at their strongest.

Keep in mind the fight you are thinking of (Ser Cauth) is completely optional. If you wish to beat this fight you would have to take up unconventional tactics. In this case: run out the door where the boss would follow.

Just for laughs try your 'chain CC' trick on Ser Cauth.

[Stitch808]

Was the title of this thread supposed to be "A mage is NOT overpowered"?

[themaxzero]

WillieStyle wrote...

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in.

It makes them focus it all on your warrior. A properly built shield and sword warrior has very little to fear from AoEs and disables. Far less than an arcane warrior at any rate.

I'm now convinced that you and I aren't even talking about the same game. In what sense could a "well built" warrior tank have less to fear from AoE and disables than an arcane warrior who will have higher armor and much higher resistances?

Arcane Warrior with Shimmering Shield is not the same as an Arcane Warrior without Shimmering Shield. Add to that it is almost impossible (without a fixed party combination) to maintain that Shimmering Shield for any length of time (remember Arcane Warriors have a low mana pool due to main upkeep spells). Finally Arcane Warriors to have a lot of problems with knockdowns (a lot of them don't take into account physical resistances).

[Marionetten]

WillieStyle wrote...

Cut scene ends with my entire group bunched up with my rogue in front. 10 archers start casting scattershot as mage winds up a fireball/crushing prison. And I'm supposed to send my warrior to "round up" as many enemies as possible? How exactly. Especially when scatter shot has a massive area of effect. Seriously you sound like some one who hasn't actually played this game.

If you're stuck in crushing prison as a mage with poor survivability you're screwed either way. Monsters have a bad habit of going after whoever they see first. They aren't especially smart so try using this to your advantage when you build your group. If anything this is merely a disadvantage for people using mages as main characters.

You make tanking ( which is by far the easiest form of crowd control in this whole game ) sound like some great challenge. It isn't due to taunt.

WillieStyle wrote...

Now, with my mage, I just cast:
sleep
glyp explosion,
crushing prison/mana clash on mages
paralyze
waking nightmare
and follow up any of those with a mass paralyze and I've actually trivialized what would otherwise be a hard encounter.

How are you going to cast any of this if your mage is stuck in a crushing prison?

Yep, class envy is the word of the day.

WillieStyle wrote...

Oh and if it takes you more than 30 seconds to clear a roomful of white mobs, well you're doing it wrong.

You said any encounter. Not any group of white mobs.

I also love how you completely failed to take the numerous reductions into account. Do you really think you'd get to enjoy the full duration on Nightmare? If so, you really are beyond clueless.

WillieStyle wrote...

I'm now convinced that you and I
aren't even talking about the same game. In what sense could a "well
built" warrior tank have less to fear from AoE and disables than an
arcane warrior who will have higher armor and much higher
resistances?

Shimmering shield is dispellable. Is shield wall?

Let's not even get into how quickly it drains a mage now that it's fixed.

Modifié par Marionetten, 18 décembre 2009 - 08:22 .

[WillieStyle]

themaxzero wrote...
In those 'cut scene' fights Mages are at their strongest.

Keep in mind the fight you are thinking of (Ser Cauth) is completely optional. If you wish to beat this fight you would have to take up unconventional tactics. In this case: run out the door where the boss would follow.

Just for laughs try your 'chain CC' trick on Ser Cauth.

Um I just beat that fight this morning without running out of the room.
Party was:
cunning rogue,
Alistair tank,
Leliana bard/archer
Morigan cc/healer.

Cast sleep.
Have Allistair attack Ser Cauth.
Morrigan casts crushing prison on mage.
Leliana and rogue burn down mage.
Morrigan casts affliction hex, vuln hex and misdirection hex on Ser Cauth essentially neutralizing her for some time.
Morrigan casts mass paralyze one half of room as Leliana and I burn down the other half of the room.
Inevitably eat a couple scattershots. Heal through them with pots.
Once mass paralyze has been cast, morrigan begins to cycle through crowd control spells on Ser Cauth as Leliana and I clear the other half of the room (which has been paralyzed by Morrigan).
Between misdirection hex, horror, paralyze, force field, and sleep, Morrigan manages to reduces Ser Cauth's dps to zero long enough for us to clear all the other mobs.

Now simply dps Ser Cauth down while spam healing Allistair.

While taunt is valuable in that fight, (helps keep ser Cauth focused on Allistair), mage crowd control spells are FAR more valuable and are the reason the fight was possible for me.
And keep in mind, this is all with just one mage.  With 2 the fight would have been trivial.

P.S.
As far as I can remember, ALL the hard fights in the game begin with cut scenes.

[WillieStyle]

WillieStyle wrote...



Oh and if it takes you more than 30 seconds to clear a roomful of white mobs, well you're doing it wrong.

You said any encounter. Not any group of white mobs.



I also love how you completely failed to take the numerous reductions into account. Do you really think you'd get to enjoy the full duration on Nightmare? If so, you really are beyond clueless.

First of all, I said Force Field gave me enough time to kill all nonelite minions while the elite was safely incapacitated.



Secondly, the duration of Force field (and to my knowledge most crowd control spells) scales with spell power.



Finally, non of what I said was mere theorycrafting. This is all stuff I've actually done in game.

[skotie]

Honestly if there's any class that could be OP in this game from a PVP standpoint I would say its a duel wielding rogue. Honestly about 3 hits would take out a mage if I attacked from stealth and stunned him. Warrior wouldn't be much different unless he had loads of DEX.

[themaxzero]

WillieStyle wrote...

themaxzero wrote...
In those 'cut scene' fights Mages are at their strongest.

Keep in mind the fight you are thinking of (Ser Cauth) is completely optional. If you wish to beat this fight you would have to take up unconventional tactics. In this case: run out the door where the boss would follow.

Just for laughs try your 'chain CC' trick on Ser Cauth.

Um I just beat that fight this morning without running out of the room.
Party was:
cunning rogue,
Alistair tank,
Leliana bard/archer
Morigan cc/healer.

Cast sleep.
Have Allistair attack Ser Cauth.
Morrigan casts crushing prison on mage.
Leliana and rogue burn down mage.
Morrigan casts affliction hex, vuln hex and misdirection hex on Ser Cauth essentially neutralizing her for some time.
Morrigan casts mass paralyze one half of room as Leliana and I burn down the other half of the room.
Inevitably eat a couple scattershots. Heal through them with pots.
Once mass paralyze has been cast, morrigan begins to cycle through crowd control spells on Ser Cauth as Leliana and I clear the other half of the room (which has been paralyzed by Morrigan).
Between misdirection hex, horror, paralyze, force field, and sleep, Morrigan manages to reduces Ser Cauth's dps to zero long enough for us to clear all the other mobs.

Now simply dps Ser Cauth down while spam healing Allistair.

While taunt is valuable in that fight, (helps keep ser Cauth focused on Allistair), mage crowd control spells are FAR more valuable and are the reason the fight was possible for me.
And keep in mind, this is all with just one mage.  With 2 the fight would have been trivial.

P.S.
As far as I can remember, ALL the hard fights in the game begin with cut scenes.

So in effect you used your whole party to beat the encounter? If you replaced Leiliana and Zev with 2 Mages would it be better?

Just some wondering.

Sleep-12 seconds
Forcefield- 18 seconds
Horror- 10 seconds
Paralyze- 15 seconds
Misdirection-20 seconds
 
This is on a white mob on normal difficulty.

Ser Cauth counts as a Super Elite (a boss with conversation).

On Nightmare the nerfed Forcefield lasted around 4 seconds. That looks to be around a 75% reduction.

Some basic math

Sleep-12 seconds- 3 seconds
Forcefield- 18 seconds- 4.5 seconds
Horror- 10 seconds- 2.5 seconds
Paralyze- 15 seconds- 3.75 seconds
Misdirection-20 seconds- 15 seconds (rough guess since Misdirection is uneffected by rank modifiers)

3+4.5+2.5+3.75+15= 28 seconds. Of which over half is Misdirection (which only effect basic melee hits not yellow stamina based attacks). I wonder if you could clear those mobs so quickly if you had Mages instead of Rogues.

The question is if spam Healing kept the Tank up why not just have Morrigan AoE Sleep then Paralyze then just spam heals on the tank while killing the other mobs?

Modifié par themaxzero, 18 décembre 2009 - 08:59 .

[themaxzero]

WillieStyle wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...

Oh and if it takes you more than 30 seconds to clear a roomful of white mobs, well you're doing it wrong.

You said any encounter. Not any group of white mobs.

I also love how you completely failed to take the numerous reductions into account. Do you really think you'd get to enjoy the full duration on Nightmare? If so, you really are beyond clueless.

First of all, I said Force Field gave me enough time to kill all nonelite minions while the elite was safely incapacitated.

Secondly, the duration of Force field (and to my knowledge most crowd control spells) scales with spell power.

Finally, non of what I said was mere theorycrafting. This is all stuff I've actually done in game.

It says that but none of the scripts seem to show it. Magic seems to effect the chance for the spell to work rather then duration.

[Lord Scarycrow]

I'm playing with a mage/arcane warrior in the hard and its too easy. My char just killed Ser Cathrine in the first encounter, after saving the queen, and oh... almost forgot to say, I was alone...

hahahahah



When i played with a warrior in the medium, do this kind of thing don't even passed by my mind.

[Baalzie]

You realise this *how to beat an encounter etc* Is considered BLATANT spoilers right?

Take it somewhere else, or stop the "debate" totally...



Or get the thread locked...

[WillieStyle]

So in effect you used your whole party to beat the encounter? If you replaced Leiliana and Zev with 2 Mages would it be better?

.



Zev? I was the second rogue. Zev wasn't in the party.

But to answer your question:

Yes of course the fight would have been easier with 3 mages.

[Sylixe]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

7a7ec wrote...

I am playing with a mage on nightmare difilcuty and is still too easy ..... But the same could be said about warrior so mages probably arent overpovered ..... Once you learn how to lvl up and which skills and talents to use its no problem to beat the game .....

Then you are not playing a solo caster mage. I'm doing a solo mage in NM. He is currently level 11. It has not been easy.  Lots of spells get resisted, even going pure magic (as I have.)

If you say caster mages in NM are easy, please post a detailed build order for Nightmare mages who want to go solo.

Notice I said "caster."  Not arcane warrior.

Uhm the natural order of progression would be to start off as a Blood Mage then multi into an AW at 14 and then watch the rest of the game like it's a video as your AW wrecks everything in sight.  It is NOT hard to play a BM till 14 if you take the correct path of gathering your allies and do as many side quests as possible.  You can easily hit level 14 before you do even 75% of the major content in game.

[Tirigon]

WillieStyle wrote...

So in effect you used your whole party to beat the encounter? If you replaced Leiliana and Zev with 2 Mages would it be better?

.

Zev? I was the second rogue. Zev wasn't in the party.
But to answer your question:
Yes of course the fight would have been easier with 3 mages.

No it wouldnt. I had 2, one of them main char as AW/BM, the other Morrigan pretty much with the same build as yours and the fight was impossible without running out of the room.

[WillieStyle]

Tirigon wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...

So in effect you used your whole party to beat the encounter? If you replaced Leiliana and Zev with 2 Mages would it be better?

.

Zev? I was the second rogue. Zev wasn't in the party.
But to answer your question:
Yes of course the fight would have been easier with 3 mages.

No it wouldnt. I had 2, one of them main char as AW/BM, the other Morrigan pretty much with the same build as yours and the fight was impossible without running out of the room.

Sigh!
Do you think the fight would have been less "impossible" for you if your main had been a cunning/dagger rogue instead of an AW/BM?

[Tirigon]

WillieStyle wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...

So in effect you used your whole party to beat the encounter? If you replaced Leiliana and Zev with 2 Mages would it be better?

.

Zev? I was the second rogue. Zev wasn't in the party.
But to answer your question:
Yes of course the fight would have been easier with 3 mages.

No it wouldnt. I had 2, one of them main char as AW/BM, the other Morrigan pretty much with the same build as yours and the fight was impossible without running out of the room.

Sigh!
Do you think the fight would have been less "impossible" for you if your main had been a cunning/dagger rogue instead of an AW/BM?

Yes, it would, unless your previous posts about this fight were nothing but lies.

[julije]

I have question reletad to combo spells did somebody try entropic death spell?Is it really powerfull as description on dragon age home page say Huge spirit damage

[Arvay5]

lol mages are not overpowered i could kick any mage's ass with my rogue (=

[julije]

And now answer to topic Mages are not overpowered but you cant play without them or you will die easilly and they are probably most usefull class in game they can do basically everything



Casting/Heal/Tank/Crowd Controler





I curently playing nightmare with my mage AW alistair morigan and wynne and i doing great by now already get elves and Arl eamon support now only Dwarf and i can go on landsmet

[WillieStyle]

Tirigon wrote...

Yes, it would, unless your previous posts about this fight were nothing but lies.

Ha.
Not lies man.  The truth and anyone who cares to can reproduce it themselves.
And I'm pretty sure that having an extra set of crowd control, hexes and AoE would have made the fight MUCH easier.
[Editted to remove inflamatory ribbing.]

Modifié par WillieStyle, 18 décembre 2009 - 10:22 .

[DKJaigen]

Odd treat. mages are awesome CC and AOE and suck in 1vs1 damage. every class has its niche and mages are strong but so are rogues and warriors