165 réponses à ce sujet

[WillieStyle]

julije wrote...

I have question reletad to combo spells did somebody try entropic death spell?Is it really powerfull as description on dragon age home page say Huge spirit damage

Yes entropic death is REALLY powerful.  Over 1k damage if min/maxed correctly.
The hex line of spells is great anyway.  So the only question is if you want to spend 4 spell slots to get death cloud.  I personally think it's worth it. Your milage may vary.

[Timortis]

Marionetten wrote...

Shimmering shield is dispellable. Is shield wall?

You'd think it wouldn't be but oddly enough, yes. One cast of Shock or Chain Lightning on a melee character drains enough stamina to disable all of their sustained abilities.

Hell, it's much better than dispel. You're doing damage and disabling their buffs AND stopping them from using any abilities for the rest of the fight. It's not like they can chug a lyrium potion like a Mage.

Modifié par Timortis, 18 décembre 2009 - 10:27 .

[Duck and Cover]

in response to the OP- yes they are. Let's move on then.

OK I'll expand a little. Them being overpowered was inevitable when you combine a mage and cleric/priest (healing) class. Now if they were to divide the classes like most rpg's do, then they wouldn't be op.Actually they combine 3 classes. As most rpg's have a warlock/necromancer type class.

Modifié par Duck and Cover, 18 décembre 2009 - 10:32 .

[Timortis]

themaxzero wrote...
Of which over half is Misdirection (which only effect basic melee hits not yellow stamina based attacks)

Say what? Not only does it apply to special attacks, it even completely negates special attacks that are supposed to be guaranteed criticals. Doesn't even make them normal hits, they just never hit, like they weren't even supposed to be crits.

[WillieStyle]

God I love/hate misdirection hex. The cheesiest debuff in the game.

How in the world the same set of developers could give rogues/warriors cripple and mages misdirection hex and think that was balanced is beyond me.

[skotie]

WillieStyle wrote...

God I love/hate misdirection hex. The cheesiest debuff in the game.
How in the world the same set of developers could give rogues/warriors cripple and mages misdirection hex and think that was balanced is beyond me.

I'd still spank any mages backside with my rogue, can't cast spells on what you can't see, and I got 2 near instant cast stuns, plus poison stuns the mage dies before they can even cast anything or heal. Seriously rogue vs. mage rogue always comes out the winner.

I know what ya mean thoug any time an dark spawn mage casts that on my rogue I just stop bothering to attack, all you get is constant miss messages.

Modifié par skotie, 18 décembre 2009 - 10:53 .

[Marionetten]

Timortis wrote...

You'd think it wouldn't be but oddly enough, yes. One cast of Shock or Chain Lightning on a melee character drains enough stamina to disable all of their sustained abilities.

Hell, it's much better than dispel. You're doing damage and disabling their buffs AND stopping them from using any abilities for the rest of the fight. It's not like they can chug a lyrium potion like a Mage.

It's called resistances. You should try it out. The Ring of Ages alone adds 20% to fire, cold, electricity, nature and spirit. That's 20% of the damage mitigated by a single item. Let's not even get into The Spellward.

[janus0891]

About  that 1vs1 arena you were talking about in page 2 , wouldn't a Templar win a duel against a Mage thanks to Holy Smite (which seems like the equivalent of Mana Clash ) right at the start of the fight , and talents like Cleanse area and the fact that with Righteous strike , each hit would drain the mana of the mage ?

I'm just asking , cause i'm relatively new to the game and didn't have the chance to test a Warrior with all Templar talents so far (i focused on Champion with Allistair ) , thx for answer

Modifié par janus0891, 18 décembre 2009 - 11:12 .

[WillieStyle]

mana clash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> holy smite.

Part of the reason is that mana clash's damage scales on magic, which a mage will have tons of.

On the other hand, holy smite's damage scales on willpower, which a typical warrior will have very little of.

Oh and mana clash is just inherently overpowered. Why? Because mages are meant to be powerful; it's the lore!



P.S.

No, you should not stack willpower on your warrior, templar or otherwise.

[Lycidas]

SheffSteel wrote...

Those are the numbers I got from this website. Any one of my friends could verify them, I suppose. But if you want to disbelieve, go right ahead. I'm sure it makes your rhetoric that much more compelling.

I know where you got that numbers from but like I said they don't mean anything. I can go ahead and let my rogue do all the damage using a mage ony for cc + healing and a tank to taunt. Now what do you think my nubers will look like?

[Llames]

I totally agree with WillieStyle.



He comes up with valid points.

And imo. People who says mages isnt the biggest asset to any group, fails.

Altho, some of the hardest fights, can be trivialized with lame tactics as rogues (Setting 1000traps ect. Flemeth, Ser Cauth ect).

With 2 mages, no potion is ever needed, on nightmare.

Try do Nightmare with 3x Rogues, 1warrior, without crafting 1000 potions, and spamming them in combat(Even if you do go spamming potions, you'll probely be owned by, as WillieStyle mentioned, Scattershot combos). Ill bet you it isnt half as easy as 3x Mage, 1 rogue/warrior.

I know you can solo Nightmare, but that is with Potion spamming, and a bit of luck. (Not getting hit by Crushing prison ect? I know you go for high SP, but only really Warriors(Templars), and Mages(Arcane Warriors), can get 100%, as far as i know..

[Faerell Gustani]

Malfurus wrote...

Let me start by stating that everyone has a right to their opinion so I hope you respect mine and try to understand where I'm coming from and I'll try to extend the same courtesy. Having said that:

While I disagree with your view point, I can respect your opinion.  Hopefully, ensuing discus

Malfurus wrote...I understand the concern everyone has with Mages being overpowered and I truly believe if you play the game in Hard mode and so on, the game in itself fixes itself. Let me explain. YES, they may be overpowered in Normal mode, and thats probably why, having created a Mage character, the game was a breeze for me and thats why I went back to play it on Hard mode with a different Mage. And lets clarify, the so called "OP" part of the Mages is the Primal tree, the other trees aren't really that overpowered, not even in Normal mode and that makes sense, since they're not the primary damage tree if you get what I mean.

I refuse to play on Normal or lower.  My first run through was on Hard and my second is on Nightmare.  I still found mages to be overpowered.
Pre patch, the overpowered ability was Cone of Cold, where the duration of the freeze + run time lasted longer than  the cooldown of the ability.  Coupled with a nominal damage factor, the ability could be repeatedly used to kill off an entire group of enemies without the mage coming to any harm.
Post patch, the ability is still extremely strong when coupled with "shattering", but the extended cooldown has balanced the primary problem with the ability.
The other Primal power is Blizzard, though the problematic part is more to do with the AI and less to do with the ability itself.  The range of the spell allows it to be cast without detection against unsuspecting mobs, and in toe-to-toe fights the AI is not smart enough to target your mage first and focus on interrupting spells.
Enhanced into  the extreme power of Storm of the Century, any fight where you have preparation time is trivialized.  Additionally, any fight where you can squeeze out blizzard, the CC abilities of the spell will likely keep them delayed long enough for you to cast Tempest.

Despite that, I do not feel that Primal is the only Overpowered section of mages.  Nor do I feel their raw damage potential is what makes them overpowered.  Rather it is the fact that they can do everything.  They naturally fulfil the damage dealing and support roles, and with Arcane Warrior, they gain survival for tanking roles.  That's why mages are overpowered.

Malfurus wrote...

I truly believe that in Hard mode the power diminishes greatly, yet still making my character a formidable foe. For instance, Easy mode I tended to run behind my tank, cast Flame Blast, followed by Tempest and usually finshing up the combo with Cone of Cold. As soon as they "Defreeze" I would Mind Blast them, while having my other party members continue to damage them. Or in really big fights I would cast Inferno, then Tempest, maybe even Blizzard for the hell of it, gain the aggro, and Forcefield my character. Within a few seconds anything Yellow is dead and usually most Oranges are almost dead (Excluding big fights like High Dragon)s (Yellow and Orange being level of monster etc)
So yes, I agree that was way too easy.

In Hard mode on the other hand I felt like a true RPG mage. Powerful, formidable, but a lot more cautious. I couldn't use the former mothod because I would end up damaging and hurting my party members, which is precisely, in my opinion, what "depowers" the mage. I took more advantage of my single spells, and had to be more careful when I used my AOE spells or else I'd find myself along with my party laying, unmoving on the stone cold floor. Not being able to use Flame Burst, or Fireball, or Tempest, or Inferno or Cone of Cold so easily, it forced me to be more strategic and had me think about what combos I would use, when to use them, and since I wasn't able to spam the above mentioned, it made gameplay more intriguing.

Again, Hard mode did not give me a different impression.  Clever positioning allowed me to set up my line of combat such that just the edge of the blizzard hit my enemies and avoided hitting my own people.  The radius marker and the highlights of who will be hit are very useful.
Additionally I would often load my sword/board tank up with Spell resistance and elemental resistance gear so that he wouldn't care if he got hit by the spell.  Friendly fire is a non issue to anyone who is patient or clever enough to position or gear his party correctly.
If all else fails, there are plenty of spells that do not friendly fire but apply very useful CC measures in a large AoE.  I mentioned that I didn't feel Primal was the only overpowered section.  Mind blast and Sleep are in Entropy and are extremely powerful.  Walking Nightmare, if a bit random, can also change the tides of the battle completely.

Malfurus wrote...

A mage in lore is supposed to be a powerful being, commanding fear, respect or both. He should be able to deal with a group of three soldiers coming after him with relative ease, but when surrounded can just as easily fall. Will you do less damage overall without a Primal mage in your party? Absolutely! Should a Warrior be able to take down four monsters at once as fast or as ferocious as a mage..Absolutely not! He may be able to kill one after the other with somewhat relative ease, but not all at once, AOE shouldn't and is not a warriors job. 

Please don't use the Lore argument.  It's highly selective as a mage in lore is also supposed to be a target for Demons, and interaction with the Fade is supposed to be highly dangerous as it allows for the possibility of Demon possession.  So if you want to argue the lore, you must logically include both benefits and drawbacks to mages.  Thus far, the lore arguments I see only push for the benefits and wish to do away with the drawbacks.

Currently, the AoE damage is not the problem with mages.  The problem is that they can deal damage (AoE or single target) and dole out immense amounts of CC at the same time.  What they should have done is split the Attributes (another problem that leads to the OP nature of mages).  Mages need only focus on a single Attribute: Magic, while every other class needs to invest in at least 2 attributes.

If they perhaps split the Damage potency and CC potency of mage attributes it would be more balanced.  Say...Cunning.  Cunning governs the difficulty of the resistance check versus CC spells while Magic maintains its use as governing the value of damage dealt by damage spells.  The problem is not that mages are good at CC or that they're good at damage, but it's the fact that they can be good at both at the same time...what's worse is that with Blood mage, they can be good at CC, Damage, and Tanking all at the same time, thus trivializing the other classes.

Malfurus wrote...

So overall, I think (again my opinion) that if the game is played on Hard difficulty setting, which I highly recommend (I don't like my 2h warrior taking down mobs too fast in Normal, I want battles to last longer) then it makes for a much more fascinating, fun, lasting experience and at the same time "depowering" the Mage's abilities but still making him a fearsome foe. 

I also recommend Hard.  I feel it is the way the game is meant to be played.  However, from what I've seen, mages are just as good and a reliance on mages is only further emphasized at higher levels of play due to the single attribute issue I mentioned earlier.  Warriors have an increasingly harder time surviving and holding aggro in higher difficulties, thus the reliance on mage CC and healing is needed.

Malfurus wrote...

As for those few who don't wish to have a ranged or Mage party member but would rather have a group of four consisting of warriors and rogues and complain that the damage is not up to par and the game is more difficult then I say...good. Its SUPPOSED to be that way. The game mechanics, in fact a lot of games, urge the player to create a party consisting of different classes to be better Equiped in handling a variation of different encounters. 

I don't think this is an issue right now.  Mages are definitely better at handling mobs of enemies, but warriors and rogues are better equipped at single target damage and thus better at cutting down a single boss character efficiently. However, this is not to say that mages are incapable of doing so.  And again, most of the "Mages are OP" issues stem from the fact that they can fulfill multiple roles at the same time and without needing to specialize (except for Tanking).
No other class in the game allows a character to truly fulfill two roles simultaneously.
Sword/Shield's damage is just never sufficient to fill the role of a true damage dealer because they need to split their stats away from Strength and into Dex or Con.
A Dex rogue can tank in situations that don't have a mage as they cannot handle damage that bypasses their defense score.  Likewise, if they get grabbed by a wolf or dragon, they're as good as dead.

So end note is that the versatility is the problem.

[skotie]

janus0891 wrote...

About  that 1vs1 arena you were talking about in page 2 , wouldn't a Templar win a duel against a Mage thanks to Holy Smite (which seems like the equivalent of Mana Clash ) right at the start of the fight , and talents like Cleanse area and the fact that with Righteous strike , each hit would drain the mana of the mage ?

I'm just asking , cause i'm relatively new to the game and didn't have the chance to test a Warrior with all Templar talents so far (i focused on Champion with Allistair ) , thx for answer

Honestly in a fair duel I doubt the Templar would win even if you have enough mental resistance to stop crushing prision I doubt you will be able to resist misdirection hex and curse of mortality, not to mention a mage can lower all your spell resistances by a significant amount if you stack them. Left unable to hit the mage and likely unable to heal/perform special moves due to the drain of stamina from lighting magic its unlikely you would win a fight against a mage, even if you used holy smite at first a mage could simply use blood magic and health potions inbetween cooldowns.

The real reason a rogue could win where a warrior class would not is stealth, that combined with stuns and backstabs it would be very hard for a rogue to lose. A ranged rogue I'm not so sure of, I don't know how many ranged stuns they get but I think its just one.

I won't say mages aren't OP in the actual game, but I think that has most to do with how the AI responds to your chracters, the AI is designed to go after heavy armor before cloth or leather, why lol don't ask me. Any fight I get in usually my first target are any enemy spell casters, and yes they go down easiest of any other foe, unless you let them cast spells.

I believe that being frail and easy to kill was supposed to be the downside to having awesome magic powers, but allowing mages to become Arcane Warriors and not making AI go immediately for cloth wearers first does yes totally make them OP in the game. Honestly 2 enemy rogues would make short work of your mage/mages if they used their skills properly and attack the same mage together. The big problem is they don't.

Modifié par skotie, 19 décembre 2009 - 12:04 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Timortis wrote...

themaxzero wrote...
Of which over half is Misdirection (which only effect basic melee hits not yellow stamina based attacks)

Say what? Not only does it apply to special attacks, it even completely negates special attacks that are supposed to be guaranteed criticals. Doesn't even make them normal hits, they just never hit, like they weren't even supposed to be crits.

Nah, do Misdirection on an Ogre and see if he won't still pick you up and squeeze you to deatth. Misdirection does  not apply to stamina based attacks. I'm playing through as a solo caster mage on Nightmare. I could only wish it applies to special attacks.

[WillieStyle]

Misdirection DOES apply to stamina based attacks. My riposte/flurry/punisher all miss when I'm misdirection hexed.



However, "grabs" are automatic hits. They never seem to miss no matter how high your defence. I think the same goes for "overwhelm".

[Ninomir]

Well actually I don't think they are OP, i thought they were, i played my first 2 runs thinking i chould not survive without Morring as my CC - DMG dealer, but then on my 4th (3rd run was with a mage) run i went for a 2h Warrior, Alistar, Wynn and Leliana (Wynn is the only mage that u MUST have in your party), and i must say the 4th run was easier then all 3 together. Without Leliana thoes Emissary are a pain to get, Curse of Mortalaty can couse a wipe, Firebolts, Chain Lighting and all that comes with 1, but with Leliana i set her tactics to auto AoS a Emissary which made thing a lot easier, and with bouth Alistar and my Self having Champ spec. and imp. Battle Cry and with Lelianas Scattered Shot the CC wasnt much of a problem and Wynns Mass Paralise came in handy too...So all in all while mages are quite usefull as CC's and DMG dealers they arnt vital to your party the only 2 thing that are vital in your party is a Tank and a Healer everything else is a choise. And the Primal Tree id not used correct simply couses too much party dmg. 

Modifié par Ninomir, 19 décembre 2009 - 01:07 .

[Timortis]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Nah, do Misdirection on an Ogre and see if he won't still pick you up and squeeze you to deatth. Misdirection does  not apply to stamina based attacks. I'm playing through as a solo caster mage on Nightmare. I could only wish it applies to special attacks.

Grumpy, you are talking about attacks that always hit no matter what. Mostly only monsters have those, like Overwhelm, Grab, Slam etc. The only player skill I can think of  is Pommel in the 2H tree.

Anyway, I also have a solo Mage on NM,  level 12 in the Brecilian Ruins, so I know how it works. I've also been on the other side, both with Rogues and Warriors, and know what it does to melee when a Mage casts Misdirection Hex on me. None of your "Stamina based attacks", as you call them, hit. They all become automatic misses, even those that say "automatic critical" in their description.

If you want me to specify, Mighty Blow, Cripple, Critical Strike, Punisher etc, none of these land when a melee has Misdirection on him.

Modifié par Timortis, 19 décembre 2009 - 01:12 .

[Lycidas]

The only problem I see with mages is that there is no advantage in learing every spell of one certain shool of magic. This makes it too easy to pick all the really good spells and never think about the not so good ones. Just like having the cake and eat it. Now if you had do learn every single spell of the creation shool to actually be good at healing in the end game or every spell of the primal shool to gain a passive boost to spell dmg we would probably not sitting here discussing overpowered mages.
For mana clash to be as good in my example as it is now you would have to learn every spirit spell there is.
That way you could still be the Jack of all trades mage you can be atm but your fireball would never be as hot as the one that this dedicated primal mage guy is throwing and your heal would never make your tank feel as good as the one of doc. spirit.
Well this is just my opinion.

Modifié par Lycidas, 19 décembre 2009 - 01:13 .

[Malfurus]

Everyone is coming up with great posts and I am definitely seeing a clearer view of both sides now, which was the purpose of the thread. Let me just make a few comments, some that I may have made before.

1. The game is SUPPOSED to be harder with 3 Rogues and 1 Warrior in response to one of the posts mentioned. Without having versatility in your group, and yes, that includes a Mage, then the game SHOULD and WILL be harder. They excel at Ranged attacks and maintaining control. Again it depends in your play style, if you use your Mage simply for CC then great, I on the other hand like to put forth a lot of damage and maybe a few CC options, like Blood Wound and Mind Blast. Again, this is an RPG, Role Playing Game, and the image of the Mage I created is not to sit there and keep stunning opponents but rather to be a fearsome foe if trifled with. You can make your Mage the primary damage dealer or you can focus on him/her being a great CC, the option is yours to make.

2. I agree that Arcane Warrior may be overpowered and I think that should be drastically reformed. I was however, for all intents and purposes, referring to a pure Mage class, my apologies I should have made that more clear.

3. I am a big advocate of making the support spells and healing spells a totally different class. I was so disappointed to find out that my healing abilities would come from magical means, such as extracting the power from the Fade, rather than the power and blessings of a God. I think healing abilities and support abilities should be moved to a Cleric class, because a Mage who can heal himself is ridiculous in my opinion and kills the Lore I had in mind. Anyone else agree?

Modifié par Malfurus, 19 décembre 2009 - 01:20 .

[zeypher]

well i play on hard with no mage party and its awesome

[Timortis]

Personally, I'm not necessarily against Mages being OP, this is a single player game, but let's call a spade a spade. The thing is, since AI is always very limited, if Mages/Casters aren't OP in a game, they become trivial for players to kill and pose no challenge. Mages were OP in BG too, especially in BG2, and that's what made the fights in those games fun.



Now, Arcane Warriors, they're another story. I think it's wrong for a Mage spec to have much better armor and defenses than a Warrior.

[Lycidas]

...
3. I am a big advocate of making the support spells and healing spells a totally different class. I was so disappointed to find out that my healing abilities would come from magical means, such as extracting the power from the Fade, rather than the power and blessings of a God. I think healing abilities and support abilities should be moved to a Cleric class, because a Mage who can heal himself is ridiculous in my opinion and kills the Lore I had in mind. Anyone else agree?

Well this is not supported by the lore. But it is not necessary either. If you as a mage had to learn all the creation spells there are to be actually good at healing you would not be able to do massive dmg and cc at the same time. You still would have all the powers within one class but not at the same time.

[Malfurus]

Some people are making such a big fuss about Misdirection Hex and I feel like they're making a big deal about it now in the hopes that it will be removed or Nerfed from Mage abilities because they're under the impression, or hopelessly dreaming that the game will have a PVP scenario added in...which I doubt will happen. If that wasn't the reason people are complaining about it then I don't think there should be any reason for any complaints toward it. Its a useful ability when fighting a ranked enemy and you should be happy to have it available. On the other hand, you still don't need it to play the game effectively. I beat the game with points primarily on the Primal Tree, all of Blood Mage, and sadly, a mistake, all in Shapeshifter and I can tell you, Misdirection is NOT needed. By no means does it miraculously make the game too easy. I played without it and I game was still too easy in Normal mode. Again I state, the game, in my opinion, was MEANT to be played on Hard.

[Malfurus]

Lycidas wrote...

...
3. I am a big advocate of making the support spells and healing spells a totally different class. I was so disappointed to find out that my healing abilities would come from magical means, such as extracting the power from the Fade, rather than the power and blessings of a God. I think healing abilities and support abilities should be moved to a Cleric class, because a Mage who can heal himself is ridiculous in my opinion and kills the Lore I had in mind. Anyone else agree?

Well this is not supported by the lore. But it is not necessary either. If you as a mage had to learn all the creation spells there are to be actually good at healing you would not be able to do massive dmg and cc at the same time. You still would have all the powers within one class but not at the same time.

I see what you're saying, I guess my point is I don't enjoy my healing party member being referred to as a Mage. In all of lore they're consistent with getting their abilities from divine beings you know? Plus, a lot of the immediatly usefull spells in the Creation tree, I found that you don't have to put too much points into it. For example, I got the Heal ability for my Mage (Before knowing I would get Wynn) and I didn't feel the need to go any further in that line.  I went up to the Repulsion Gylph on the other row and stopped there, anything further I thought was subject for debate, depending on the situation. If people spend most points in that tree then yes, I would agree, they wouldn't be much of a damage dealing class but from what I understand they may only go into it a a few points and the rest is on Damage dealing capabilities or CC. A Primal Mage (ie: just an example, could be Entropic too) should NOT be able to heal himself in my opinion.

[janus0891]

WillieStyle wrote...

mana clash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> holy smite.
Part of the reason is that mana clash's damage scales on magic, which a mage will have tons of.
On the other hand, holy smite's damage scales on willpower, which a typical warrior will have very little of.
Oh and mana clash is just inherently overpowered. Why? Because mages are meant to be powerful; it's the lore!

P.S.
No, you should not stack willpower on your warrior, templar or otherwise.

Thanks for answer m8

But ok  , let's say i have a Templar warrior with 60 willpower and i'm facing a Mage with 58 magic , 58 willpower  :

Wouldn't i win against him in 1vs1 arena fight , since with a single Holy Smite at the start of the fight , i could drain all his mana , cause spirit damage and possibly stun him    as i have more willpower (60)  than he has Magic (58)   ?  I'd really like an answer to this : would my superior willpower to his magic  make Holy Smite work on him and drain him of his combat tool : mana

Also , with cleanse area , wouldn't he be unable to cast anything or his spells to be totally nullified  ?   i thought that if it's correct , i could destroy him easily  since holy smite would drain him of his mana and damage/stun him , then with cleanse aua , i could make sure than even if he takes a lyrium  , his spells won't do anything while i finish him

I ask you this  cause i intend to  "roleplay"  a true/dedicated  Knight  Templar  based on willpower and dexterity (with just enough strength to wear templar or knight armour )   , i know it will make things harder for me at the beggining ,  but i want to be sure i'll end up with a fearsome Mage and Rogue killer

Cause i also think the Mage is overpowered , that's why with my Mage , i never use cone of cold , force field and the likes ,  i only use themed spells depending on which character i roleplay , with Morrigan for example  , i use the respec mod to make her a pure Entropy Mage ,  my mage at the moment is a pure Fire Mage with some  spirit powers for instance  , this helps me balance the game myself cause since it's an offline game , we aren't obliged to use all  the "i win" spells , well just a thought , cheers

Modifié par janus0891, 19 décembre 2009 - 01:54 .