165 réponses à ce sujet

[Lycidas]

Malfurus wrote...

Lycidas wrote...

...
3. I am a big advocate of making the support spells and healing spells a totally different class. I was so disappointed to find out that my healing abilities would come from magical means, such as extracting the power from the Fade, rather than the power and blessings of a God. I think healing abilities and support abilities should be moved to a Cleric class, because a Mage who can heal himself is ridiculous in my opinion and kills the Lore I had in mind. Anyone else agree?

Well this is not supported by the lore. But it is not necessary either. If you as a mage had to learn all the creation spells there are to be actually good at healing you would not be able to do massive dmg and cc at the same time. You still would have all the powers within one class but not at the same time.

I see what you're saying, I guess my point is I don't enjoy my healing party member being referred to as a Mage. In all of lore they're consistent with getting their abilities from divine beings you know? Plus, a lot of the immediatly usefull spells in the Creation tree, I found that you don't have to put too much points into it. For example, I got the Heal ability for my Mage (Before knowing I would get Wynn) and I didn't feel the need to go any further in that line.  I went up to the Repulsion Gylph on the other row and stopped there, anything further I thought was subject for debate, depending on the situation. If people spend most points in that tree then yes, I would agree, they wouldn't be much of a damage dealing class but from what I understand they may only go into it a a few points and the rest is on Damage dealing capabilities or CC. A Primal Mage (ie: just an example, could be Entropic too) should NOT be able to heal himself in my opinion.

Hm...I don't think you understood what I was trying to say. IMHO you should be encouraged to learn all the creation spells the good and the bad to be really good at healing. ATM there is no need to do that you just pic heal and be good. There should be a passive ability you gain as soon as you learn a whole shool of magic. Like you have mastered the shool of creation this will give you +20% to all heals + 5% mana reg (just throwing ideas out here).

[skotie]

janus0891 wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...

mana clash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> holy smite.
Part of the reason is that mana clash's damage scales on magic, which a mage will have tons of.
On the other hand, holy smite's damage scales on willpower, which a typical warrior will have very little of.
Oh and mana clash is just inherently overpowered. Why? Because mages are meant to be powerful; it's the lore!

P.S.
No, you should not stack willpower on your warrior, templar or otherwise.

Thanks for answer m8

But ok  , let's say i have a Templar warrior with 60 willpower and i'm facing a Mage with 58 magic , 58 willpower  :

Wouldn't i win against him in 1vs1 arena fight , since with a single Holy Smite at the start of the fight , i could drain all his mana , cause spirit damage and possibly stun him    as i have more willpower (60)  than he has Magic (58)   ?  I'd really like an answer to this : would my superior willpower to his magic  make Holy Smite work on him and drain him of his combat tool : mana

Also , with cleanse area , wouldn't he be unable to cast anything or his spells to be totally nullified  ?   i thought that if it's correct , i could destroy him easily  since holy smite would drain him of his mana and damage/stun him , then with cleanse aua , i could make sure than even if he takes a lyrium  , his spells won't do anything while i finish him

I ask you this  cause i intend to  "roleplay"  a true/dedicated  Knight  Templar  based on willpower and dexterity (with just enough strength to wear templar or knight armour )   , i know it will make things harder for me at the beggining ,  but i want to be sure i'll end up with a fearsome Mage and Rogue killer

Cause i also think the Mage is overpowered , that's why with my Mage , i never use cone of cold , force field and the likes ,  i only use themed spells depending on which character i roleplay , with Morrigan for example  , i use the respec mod to make her a pure Entropy Mage ,  my mage at the moment is a pure Fire Mage with some  spirit powers for instance  , this helps me balance the game myself cause since it's an offline game , we aren't obliged to use all  the "i win" spells , well just a thought , cheers

I do not believe this would be the case but you might have a small shot, since holy smite will stun the big problem with it vs. a mage is this, the spell only cause the target mage to lose mana if they do not pass a mental resistance check.

So in theory this spell hurts weak mages more then powerful ones, as the most potent mages stack magic, which increases mental resistance EDIT IN (willpower also increases mental resistance XD). Still the move is effective for the stun, since almost no mage will have much physical resistance. I do not know if it truely works as well as one would think it should though.

A word of warning however, If your fighting an Arcane Warrior you mind as well not bother using this if they have shimmering sheild up, it basically maxes out all reisistances includeing mental, just checked my AW save I have 100 mental resist with it active and I didn't even max magic.

Also cleanse area does not pervent a mage from casting spells, it simply removes dispellable effects, basically any substained magic effect. Your champion knockdown shout sadly would be more effective vs. a mage then most of the Templar abilities.

In the actual game I supose a Templars abilities might be better vs. AI mages though.

Modifié par skotie, 19 décembre 2009 - 02:32 .

[janus0891]

Thank you for answer , that's kind of you

Ok , but   if i understand well ,  couldn't i  deactivate the shimmering shield of the AW  with Cleanse aura ?

i ask cause  Cleanse aura should work without the AW  able to resist it with mental/physical resistance check , at least it is not written in the description of the Cleanse Aura  spell in game

Modifié par janus0891, 19 décembre 2009 - 02:35 .

[LightSabres]

WillieStyle wrote...

Misdirection DOES apply to stamina based attacks. My riposte/flurry/punisher all miss when I'm misdirection hexed.

However, "grabs" are automatic hits. They never seem to miss no matter how high your defence. I think the same goes for "overwhelm".

That's because it's not Defence that stops these attacks - It is a high Constitution and the physical resistance that comes with it that stops these attacks from succeeding.  Since everyone pretty much ignores this attribute the mobs remain free to manhandle you whenever they feel like it.

I assume most people deal with these attacks similarly to myself - have a quick lockdown spell ready to blast dragons/ogres/mabari hounds to freeze them and release they character they have a hold of.   CoC seems to be the most effective method of dealing with the situation...

[Jasco11]

My perception of the overpoweredness of mages is this 3 mages and a tank = easy mode no matter what difficulty. So it's not really saying that having 1 mage and you are overpowered, or even two mages. It all depends on how you build you classes and so forth. I build my classes the way many of the good RPG's+MMO's (at least in my opinion) require you to have groups.



Healer + Tank + Melee DPS + Ranged DPS.



Again solely my opionion but I enjoyed games and feel players had far greater understanding of their class when groups really required a set up in that manner. Any more (MMO's particularly) you can get away with DPS and Heals and get rid of tanks except for major raids. Now this isn't an MMO but my point is that the OP'ness of the mages in DA:O all depends on what perspective you see it.



I certainly would say if I rolled 3 mages with DPS + heals, coupled with a beast of a tank, I would end up not even reaching level 10 b/c boredom would set in.

[LightSabres]

Timortis wrote...

Personally, I'm not necessarily against Mages being OP, this is a single player game, but let's call a spade a spade. The thing is, since AI is always very limited, if Mages/Casters aren't OP in a game, they become trivial for players to kill and pose no challenge. Mages were OP in BG too, especially in BG2, and that's what made the fights in those games fun.

Now, Arcane Warriors, they're another story. I think it's wrong for a Mage spec to have much better armor and defenses than a Warrior.

Ah but there IS a trade off to having better armor and defence.  They can cast almost no spells when fully 'armored' and there mana regeneration takes a big hit too.  PLUS they don't get any of the neet stuns, critical hits or taunts that warriors get.  They pretty much become auto-attack machines.

That being said - AW are the only class I have seen that can solo dragons with ease.  Just outfit them with a set of Wade`s superior armor to give them 70% resistance to fire, give them an auto-heal tactic and a staff and they can stay back far enough from a dragon to not get hit by the melee attacks, take almost no damage from the fireballs and auto-attack them to death.  It take a LONG time this way but very doable.  Reminds me of Paladins in Everquest to be honest.

[skotie]

janus0891 wrote...

Thank you for answer , that's kind of you

Ok , but   if i understand well ,  couldn't i  deactivate the shimmering shield of the AW  with Cleanse aura ?

i ask cause  Cleanse aura should work without the target able to resist it with mental/physical resistance check , at east it is not written in the description of the spell in game

Aye thats probablly your best bet vs. a AW as well, clease area then hit them with holy smite for the damage+stun (if it works not even sure, my AW without it up still has 47 mental resist) then follow that up with war cry if you have the superiorty upgrade hopefully you could finish the mage off while they lay on the ground.

That's really my best strategy for a Templar/Champion vs. a Arcane Warrior/Whatever.

[F-C]

WillieStyle wrote...
P.S.
No, you should not stack willpower on your warrior, templar or otherwise.

see, i said way back on page 2 that people who cry about mages constantly are just terrible at melee classes, they insist on proving it with posts like this.

hes basically saying 'you should not get stamina on your warrior, ever!'

/facepalm

[janus0891]

Ok cool , thanks Skotie for answer , that encourages me to start a new game with a Templar  based on willpower and dexterity with just enough strength to wear armours , it's good to know i'll be an effective  Mage slayer 

Modifié par janus0891, 19 décembre 2009 - 02:51 .

[WillieStyle]

janus0891 wrote...

Ok cool , thanks Skotie for answer , that encourages me to start a new game with a Templar  based on willpower and dexterity with just enough strength to wear armours , it's good to know i'll be an effective  Mage slayer 

Give it a shot and see how you like it. However, I'd advise getting a respec mod if you play on PC.
If you're going dual-wield, then getting just enough dex for the dw talents (~32) is a good idea. Dump everything else into strength.
If you're going 2 hander though, I'd strongly advise against stacking dex.

Either case, I would not spend a single point in willpower.  There are far better ways to get stamina.

For instance, Chasind great maul gives you 75 stamina.  To get that much stamina from willpower you would need 15 willpower.  Now ask yourself, are there any items/weapons in the game that give you 15 str/will/dex/con/mag?  The answer is no.  Willpower is a bad stat to stack for any class.  If you need stamina get it from gear or get it from mage spells like rejuvenation/mass rejuvenation.

Finally, with the buffed death blow, warriors really shouldn't have stamina problems.

Then again, your milage may vary.  As long as you have the respec mod, you can try both approaches and see which you like best.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Timortis wrote...
Grumpy, you are talking about attacks that always hit no matter what. Mostly only monsters have those, like Overwhelm, Grab, Slam etc. The only player skill I can think of  is Pommel in the 2H tree.

Anyway, I also have a solo Mage on NM,  level 12 in the Brecilian Ruins, so I know how it works. I've also been on the other side, both with Rogues and Warriors, and know what it does to melee when a Mage casts Misdirection Hex on me. None of your "Stamina based attacks", as you call them, hit. They all become automatic misses, even those that say "automatic critical" in their description.

Ah, the automatic hits explains what I've been seeing then. My NM solo mage is just shy of level 12.

[F-C]

WillieStyle wrote...

Either case, I would not spend a single point in willpower.  There are far better ways to get stamina.

For instance, Chasind great maul gives you 75 stamina.  To get that much stamina from willpower you would need 15 willpower. 

would i rather have 75 stamina from an item alone, or 150 stamina from an item plus putting some points in willpower.

its not like its an either or thing, you can stack both so you have plenty of stamina to use abilities throughout the fight.



in my opinion ignoring willpower is the number one mistake most bads who complain on the forums make.

they think its better to just stack on more strength or whatever to get a minor increase in damage than it is to bother with having a decent stamina pool on their melee class, then they come to the forums and cry about melee are terrible compared to mages and all this and that and its just ridiculous.

bioware shouldnt have to balance a game for bad players.



thats right up there with when flatcat was trying to tell me a couple weeks ago that you had to walk over the top of traps in front of the mobs or you are exploiting the AI. "hey guys, there is a mine field up ahead, if we dont walk over the top of it we are cheating!"

"hey guys, i have these abilities that use stamina, so lets ignore the stamina stat!"

[Tirigon]

WillieStyle wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Yes, it would, unless your previous posts about this fight were nothing but lies.

Ha.
Not lies man.  The truth and anyone who cares to can reproduce it themselves.
And I'm pretty sure that having an extra set of crowd control, hexes and AoE would have made the fight MUCH easier.
[Editted to remove inflamatory ribbing.]

I believe you you spoke the truth. I just wonder, then, how you can say mages make the fight easier if you were more effective with one than I was with two.

Someone wrote: Wynn is the only mage that u MUST have in your party

Actually, this is wrong. Im playing a mage on nightmare right now, and I just finished brecilian forest as the first recruitment place, so without Wynne. I had Sten, Lelianna and Alistair with me, and it was perfectly doable, though sometimes very hard - but then, if it wasnt hard on nightmare we would need a more difficult difficulty. And Wynne sucks anyways. I hate her so much. Crappy spells, crappy looks, crappy voice, and she always talks crap.

[Tirigon]

F-C wrote...

thats right up there with when flatcat was trying to tell me a couple weeks ago that you had to walk over the top of traps in front of the mobs or you are exploiting the AI. "hey guys, there is a mine field up ahead, if we dont walk over the top of it we are cheating!"

"hey guys, i have these abilities that use stamina, so lets ignore the stamina stat!"

Hehe, that´s a nice strategy. Gotta try it out so I can start a whinethread here.
Title will be: "This game sucks so hard; I dont use any skills, I always run in traps, I never try to evade archers and the game is still too hard!"

[Sunder_2]

"Hm...I don't think you understood what I was trying to say. IMHO you should be encouraged to learn all the creation spells the good and the bad to be really good at healing. ATM there is no need to do that you just pic heal and be good. There should be a passive ability you gain as soon as you learn a whole shool of magic. Like you have mastered the shool of creation this will give you +20% to all heals + 5% mana reg (just throwing ideas out here)."





big +1



Don't have a clue about balancing the numbers, but I really like this idea for all 3 classes. Other than sword/sheild combo.......I can't see any one class really having an incentive to earn all the differents specs in a given categorie- the sum is less than the parts in most cases. Yes, it is great that you can spread focus and still be affective, but I think it would only add to diverse gameplay if there was some sort of bonus to a Rogue/Warriar that learned all 12 specs in dual weild or a mage that learned all of the elementals spells, ect......

[Marionetten]

Lycidas wrote...

Hm...I don't think you understood what I was trying to say. IMHO you should be encouraged to learn all the creation spells the good and the bad to be really good at healing. ATM there is no need to do that you just pic heal and be good. There should be a passive ability you gain as soon as you learn a whole shool of magic. Like you have mastered the shool of creation this will give you +20% to all heals + 5% mana reg (just throwing ideas out here).

They had a system like this but they left it out for some reason. There are progress bars and even achievements for mastering schools. Unfortunately, there is no statistical benefit to it and I personally believe this needs to be patched as it's yet another niggle preventing Dragon Age: Origins from being the true masterpiece it deserves to be.

[Brunopolis]

Lycidas wrote...

Hm...I don't think you understood what I was trying to say. IMHO you should be encouraged to learn all the creation spells the good and the bad to be really good at healing. ATM there is no need to do that you just pic heal and be good. There should be a passive ability you gain as soon as you learn a whole shool of magic. Like you have mastered the shool of creation this will give you +20% to all heals + 5% mana reg (just throwing ideas out here).

There are really two ways to handle encouraging mages to specialize(at least in my humble opinion).

1.  Incorporate into some of the skills passive bonus' like all the other weapon schools have(Shield tree for example has a "Shield Mastery" talent that solely improves shield useage).
Example: 
Earthquake passively improves the effect(stuns, burning, etc) durations of all primal spells.
Spell Bloom passively increases the power of all creation spells.

2.  Make willpower rather than magic the main stat for the creation and spirit tree.  This way you have to choose more carefully how you invest your attribute points.  If you want to be a jack of all trades you may have to skip on some of the high end skills from some of the trees.
Getting both 34 willpower and 34 magic to cast spells from all schools may be a little harder.  Maybe even increase the stat requirements to 42(like warriors need for their armor) to make sure that only at level 20 can a purely focused mage get access to all the spells from all schools.

Personally, I'd like to see both these balance changes implemented.
I really think that would tone mages down yet make them more interesting at the same time.

[Original182]

Mages are not overpowered because they are glass cannons. They have a lot of firepower, but they will die if all archers focused on the mage.

It's thanks to the way aggro works, that mages don't die as much. The tank gets most of the damage.

Imagine if the computer AI was so clever, that archers would go after mages first. You wouldn't say mages are overpowered anymore.

So mages really are balanced, just that the way aggro works, it works in their favor, making them more powerful than usual.

[Llames]

Tirigon wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Yes, it would, unless your previous posts about this fight were nothing but lies.

Ha.
Not lies man.  The truth and anyone who cares to can reproduce it themselves.
And I'm pretty sure that having an extra set of crowd control, hexes and AoE would have made the fight MUCH easier.
[Editted to remove inflamatory ribbing.]

I believe you you spoke the truth. I just wonder, then, how you can say mages make the fight easier if you were more effective with one than I was with two.

Well lets see.. How can he say that?

Hmm. Unless..No.. Cant be true..

Or wait. He might be a better player?

[janus0891]

WillieStyle wrote...
Give it a shot and see how you like it. However, I'd advise getting a respec mod if you play on PC.
If you're going dual-wield, then getting just enough dex for the dw talents (~32) is a good idea. Dump everything else into strength.
If you're going 2 hander though, I'd strongly advise against stacking dex.

Either case, I would not spend a single point in willpower.  There are far better ways to get stamina.

For instance, Chasind great maul gives you 75 stamina.  To get that much stamina from willpower you would need 15 willpower.  Now ask yourself, are there any items/weapons in the game that give you 15 str/will/dex/con/mag?  The answer is no.  Willpower is a bad stat to stack for any class.  If you need stamina get it from gear or get it from mage spells like rejuvenation/mass rejuvenation.

Finally, with the buffed death blow, warriors really shouldn't have stamina problems.

Then again, your milage may vary.  As long as you have the respec mod, you can try both approaches and see which you like best.

Thanks for the advices mate;)

I intend to make a Templar Archer of Dalish Elves origin (1 archery point free)  , that's why i will base him on willpower and dex ,  basically  he won't be a real warrior , i already have a "standard" warrior character built on strength+dex  but i wanted someting more unique , a Templar on a holy mission to eradicate Maleficarum from Ferelden

My Templar will be a pure  "anti-Mage/Arcanehorror/any caster" character    with a  huge willpower pool , because youneed it  in order to  use the Templar talents systematically  , HolySmite after Cleanse area (if there are casters)  without the ennemy resisting it  and some Champion powers as well, especially Superiority but also party buffs like Rally ,  and all this  while still having the stamina left to launch arrows of slaying and other archer abilities .

Basically my warrior will be like a  Cleric  in heavy armour and short bow , full of willpower and with high dex (for the short bow) and just enough strength to wear the heavy armour .  Problem is that it will take  time before i'll become powerful , might not be easy at the beggining

Modifié par janus0891, 19 décembre 2009 - 07:15 .

[sleepy__head]

Actually, it's living proof of bias. It is no good lecturing people on comparing apples to apples and then formulate an argument that compare's the Mage's strong points against the warrior/rogues's weak points. Practice what you preach and do the same.

You know, this is a fine discussion until you ran into people like this.  I compared NO strong or weak points at all.  My statements were completely general and applied to no specific skills, talents, spells, competence of the players etc. etc.  Please, if you are going to contribute, at least learn to read the other person's post before refutting with utter nonsese.  Now, welcome to ignore.

[MANoob]

Mage sucking at singletarget dps
http://social.biowar...439305/1#439305
Mage soloing one of the fights mentioned here without running out of the room. Would be very easy take no or almost no potions otherwise, but here is a stupid way to do it and its still possible.
SPOILER

END SPOILER

And this is far from being the most munchkinized mage build, it lacks focus and 150+ defense of my latest concepts.

Cheers!

[Tirigon]

Llames wrote...

Well lets see.. How can he say that?

Hmm. Unless..No.. Cant be true..

Or wait. He might be a better player?

No

[JaegerBane]

Malfurus wrote...
3. I am a big advocate of making the support spells and healing spells a totally different class. I was so disappointed to find out that my healing abilities would come from magical means, such as extracting the power from the Fade, rather than the power and blessings of a God. I think healing abilities and support abilities should be moved to a Cleric class, because a Mage who can heal himself is ridiculous in my opinion and kills the Lore I had in mind. Anyone else agree?

You're free to have whatever opinion you want, but let's not trying to claim that to seperate healing from support spells is anything to do with Lore. The lore says that healing magic is part of the School of Creation. And that's as far as it goes. All this stuff about Clerics is just D&D-centric thinking, no more and no less.

And frankly, I have no idea why you think the idea of a Mage casting Magic Spells is so ridiculous. The idea that there is some arbitrary divide between healing and support magic is just something that developed in D&D and, imo, was done rather cack-handedly, particularly when spells that couldn't be cast by arcanes (or divines) shared schools with ones that could.

 

[JaegerBane]

sleepy__head wrote...

Actually, it's living proof of bias. It is no good lecturing people on comparing apples to apples and then formulate an argument that compare's the Mage's strong points against the warrior/rogues's weak points. Practice what you preach and do the same.

You know, this is a fine discussion until you ran into people like this.  I compared NO strong or weak points at all.  My statements were completely general and applied to no specific skills, talents, spells, competence of the players etc. etc.  Please, if you are going to contribute, at least learn to read the other person's post before refutting with utter nonsese.  Now, welcome to ignore.

Oh cry me a river. If you're actually going to debate my point then fine, I'd welcome it, but if all you're going to do whinge 'l2read' and babble insults then frankly I wonder why you bothered replying. If you're refusing to actually point out what reasons you had for mentioning 'when I took my rogues and warriors through Nightmare they sure were hell lot harder than being a mage' then you can't honestly expect your argument to be taken at face value.

It seems I made an incorrect assumption that you had some reasoning behind your stance. If you're going to contribute, then explain what you're contributing, not just 'I found it harder so that's proof that mages are OP'.