68 réponses à ce sujet

[Damar Stiehl]

Now, I remember a member of the dev team going bananas over people using the term "immersion" (though I don't remember your name, your outburst would've done Derek Smart proud, son. Those players, they need to know their role and their place, know what I'm sayin'?). That said, just because one dislikes the color of the sky, it doesn't mean that it is no longer blue.

Immersion, or suspension of disbelief, is what makes a role-playing game different from, say, a shooter or an "action-RPG lite" like Diablo, where the ultimate goal is to kill the next 1000 bad guys and get some more phat lewt. Like it or not, there's a story that the game tells, just like a book would, and if the story is told badly or disjointedly, it becomes a drag to follow.

I'm not even talking about the infamous "why can I walk, but my party sprints in short bursts" issue, though that one was the earliest noticeable. After a while I just started to run everywhere. I've got a world to save, so I'm always in a rush, damnit. Yeah. Damar, the fastest Grey Warden alive...

I'm talking about small things that slowly chip away at the suspension of disbelief, and it ruins the big picture something fierce. Take Rogue side quests, for example. They send you scurrying all over Ferelden, repeatedly, and it only underscores the fact that the passage of time has been handwaved. There is no travel magic and no horses, so my party hoofs it around the area of the size of England, repeatedly visiting locations that are as static as those of an MMO. I must've spent three months solving "False Witness" only because my targets were all over the place, yet nothing has changed. It's acceptable for an MMO, not so much for a single-player game.

And the NPCs. Didn't Gothic teach people anything? No generic NPC should stand around stock-still, or run an easily identifiable repeated route. Denerim's market is the worst offender. There's an archer girl outside of Wade's that doesn't do anything. She does not even flinch, she just STANDS there. There's a named NPC arguing with a vendor... ALWAYS. There are children that run in a circle... ALL THE TIME, and it wouldn't be so bad if the circle encompassed the whole market, but instead they sprint around the same spot again... and again... and again.

Compare to Witcher's setting. Things looked a lot more alive...

[twintalons]

That archer creeps me out!

If you talk to a party member in that location she is like RIGHT there in the frame with you..... and yeah I went back ages later and there she was still standing there.

I started to wonder if she was spying on Wade

[Skellimancer]

Good points, i avoided side quests on first playthough as i thought there was an overall time limit. more fool me..

[Nashimura]

There are a few flaws like that if you look hard enough, they didnt bother me too much though.



"ALL Men are the worst"

[NewYears1978]

Agreed...still thought the game was pretty impressive. If you stop to think about time contstraints and all that is involved..then realize what IS in the game..it's pretty impressive. The sheer amound of Lore, History, Voice Over, story alone..is pretty impressive.

Agree that some of the smaller things still could or should have been changed or resolved (Like the ones you mentioned..like the bad textuers..like the bland environments in places) But I think the engine and time was limited..5 years was already too long for a game....and aged the engine pretty badly by the time of release (I think..?)

The game could have been so much more..it's really a shame..but at least it was on the good side overall, not bad..

Modifié par NewYears1978, 18 décembre 2009 - 02:50 .

[Viglin]

Have to agree, other then a certain town no longer being there[trying best to avoid the no Spoilers rule..unlike the Op it seems]...the game falls into the same trap of almost every other game...time has no meaning.

The biggest and ld say most posted part is Redcliff Castle and the choices that can be made there.

[SheffSteel]

Dammit man you are right. Those kids shouldn't be running in a circle, they should be standing in a circle, around a squirrel, saying "Let's poke it with a stick!". Good times.

[Entropy_]

Ultima started "NPC schedules" (with i think Ultima 5 or 6) where they took lunch, went to sleep, went to work, etc. which I thought was the COOLEST thing back in the day.



Since then, it seems game developers thought that was a horrible idea, since no game since has done it, that I know of. Even Ultima got rid if it in later games in that series. I seem to recall the designer saying something like: when a player goes to a vendor, he wants to sell/buy right away, not wait for the shopkeeper to get back from lunch!



While that logic is ok, I think some simulation aspects can deepen the immersion and I for one find it fun. Things like "baking bread" (interacting with in-game objects other than killing things and taking their stuff) is another cool sim idea in a RPG. Bring these things back!

[Darpaek]

Stupid, pointy-headed, snooty RPGers...



Stop knocking other genres! Immersion is not exclusive to the RPG! As a long time FPSer AND a long time RPGer, immersion is important to other genres, too! It's just a little different for FPS (more akin to motion sickness... =P)

[Wenla]

Damar Stiehl wrote...

Compare to Witcher's setting. Things looked a lot more alive...

It's not good comparison (for DAO) to start to play DAO just after finishing The Witcher...

Wenla

[deathwing200]

Damar Stiehl wrote...

And the NPCs. Didn't Gothic teach people anything? No generic NPC should stand around stock-still, or run an easily identifiable repeated route. Denerim's market is the worst offender. There's an archer girl outside of Wade's that doesn't do anything. She does not even flinch, she just STANDS there. There's a named NPC arguing with a vendor... ALWAYS. There are children that run in a circle... ALL THE TIME, and it wouldn't be so bad if the circle encompassed the whole market, but instead they sprint around the same spot again... and again... and again.

Compare to Witcher's setting. Things looked a lot more alive...

Disagree. NPC's moving around or when they're not available at certain times, makes things really annoying and tedious. I am glad Bioware chose not to go down that route.

People not being available when I needed them, was one of the reasons Witcher is no longer on my hard drive.

[kevinwastaken]

Damar Stiehl wrote...

Now, I remember a member of the dev team going bananas over people using the term "immersion" (though I don't remember your name, your outburst would've done Derek Smart proud, son. Those players, they need to know their role and their place, know what I'm sayin'?). That said, just because one dislikes the color of the sky, it doesn't mean that it is no longer blue.

Yeah we know who you are talking about. It's hard to imagine a greater fool of oneself being made in any other setting.

[SheffSteel]

I really liked the way that The Witcher's market stalls closed at night. You know, when people are sleeping and the streets can actually be dangerous. Oh yeah. Atmosphere, and immersion.

Better than that, though, was the sudden torrential downpours that made everyone run for cover. Obviously they overdid those - sometimes they occurred multiple times a day - but you can't be subtle when showing off your features, otherwise the publisher's representative might not notice them... but I digress...

[LdyShayna]

Damar Stiehl wrote...

Now, I remember a member of the dev team going bananas over people using the term "immersion" (though I don't remember your name, your outburst would've done Derek Smart proud, son. Those players, they need to know their role and their place, know what I'm sayin'?). That said, just because one dislikes the color of the sky, it doesn't mean that it is no longer blue.

Perhaps you could look back and re-read it, then.  He wasn't "bananas" about it because it is unimportant.  He objected to it constantly being used to justify EVERYTHING because immersion, like fun, is too subjective to be universally applied as justification.

Modifié par LdyShayna, 18 décembre 2009 - 03:28 .

[BlastedLands]

yeah, there are lots of "flaws", but somehow they managed that i spend more time with this game than... well.... ever? sometimes it don't need busy towns and all that stuff, because gameplay's smooth as it is.

[Darpaek]

A small part of me gets really annoyed at games with day/night cycles where I have to rest somewhere before I can go to the shop and dump my loot (I'm more annoyed when Day/Night has no effect on the game - or, just the shops close, but the streets don't get more dangerous or there aren't quests or anything in particular to do at night). But a MUCH bigger part of me loves that stuff. I haven't played much with the toolset, but it's a real shame that a day/night cycle doesn't even seem possible with DA:O. I really think this was a bad decision that is going to limit the modding community. Some of the best NWN mods couldn't even be poorly duplicated in DA:O because of the lack of a time cycle.

[whtnyte-raernst]

I guess I never noticed NPCs just standing around because I was too busy rushing past to go have fun playing the game.

[Sam -stone- serious]

Agree completely with the OP. When i play an RPG i personaly demand for the RPG to present me with a HUGE feeling of disbelief. From Western RPGs for me Deus eX, Baldurs Gate 2, Planescape, Elder scrolls 3 and (modded)4, Witcher were probably my favourite as the feeling of a living breathing world and your place in it was especially strong. From eastern RPGs the only ones i can truly speak about with such a strong feeling are later games and namely Dragon Quest 8 and Final Fantasy 12.

[Oliver Sudden]

LdyShayna wrote...

...He objected to [immersion] constantly being used to justify EVERYTHING because immersion, like fun, are too subjective to be universally applied as justification.

Thank you.

It's as if the term immersion has acquired some sort of legendary, untouchable status lately, maybe because it's a "big" word that people can use to make them sound (and feel) more intellectual. The funny thing is, it's more a marketing term than anything else, something to be used in advertisements since it's captured the attention of the gaming crowd.

It's not only subjective, it's nearly so broad as to be meaningless and can be tacked onto any activity that captures our interest. My mom could be said to get immersed in crossword puzzles as much as kids in the back yard being immersed in the doings of ants they're watching or someone playing solitaire.

And, yet, people will add the word into gaming arguments as if it were some sort of trump card and make any disagreement impossible.

[Zem_]

To be fair, immersion is a no-win argument for any developer. There can always exist a topic like this about ANY game because you can always point to something which is not true to life... obviously.

[biowherewolf]

good points and good idea for a thread.

Personally, i thought Mass Effect (although a different style of game) was better at this. And, as pointed out, Witcher was really good at it too.



For FPS, i was totally immersed in Half-life 2, although at a frantic pace. Still... all good points.



--B. Where

[VanDraegon]

I guess the OP would prefer it if the major plot lines resolved themselves while the pc was off on a side quest? The Archdemon attacks and the pc is running errands for the Crows? Sorry, missed it....



I dont get why people are so critical of the allowances that have to be made to acommodate everythingt aht is packed into a game like this. You want to spend days traveling from one town to the next on foot? Even if you had a horse it would still be days. To satisfy the conditions for immersion that the OP wishes to see, i would think that the budget would have to be half again as big with an even longer dev time.



We as gamers have to accept some compromises in immersion. I dont think it is possible to cover all the bases and still get a great game like this one.

[Reinoc]

That kind of thing usually doesn't bother me, but yesterday I did something ridiculous. It was right after a big event near the end, everybody was waiting for me to go to a certain place to "save the world", and this thief I did some burglary for tells me of this incredible chance to rob that annoying noble blind. I knew it wouldn't change anything in the game so I did it, but it felt really ridiculous to do this at that time. I mean, I spend a year building an army to fight the blight, and now that I'm finally ready to do it I stop for a burglary? If I could have done this before that point, no problem, but that mission was unlocked only after that important event near the end.

[Few87]

SheffSteel wrote...

Dammit man you are right. Those kids shouldn't be running in a circle, they should be standing in a circle, around a squirrel, saying "Let's poke it with a stick!". Good times.

HA, classic. In fact i think thats one of the most memorable things for me out of any game ever for some mad reason..

[DragonRageGT]

While most of OP's points are true, they are hardly significant to make this game less remarkable, for me. What makes it remarkable for me is the way that it draws me into my characters and their relationships with his companions, with situations where I must chose what type of personality will that particular character have.

The amazingly constructed comedy, that put some people like me in stitches, to lighten a little a very dark and apocaliptic threat to the world that my characters are living in, the brilliant way that the story develops and throws consistent events that make sense considering all the lore of the world that has been presented and the progression of the tale, particularly in random encounters that are determined by the stage we are in the tale.

Did I notice all that you pointed out, Damar, oh yeah! Did I noticed that when I forget my party in Hold and set them to follow they will cover a huge distance in bullet speed (when they don't just warp in) and have I wanted to be able to run at that speed? (why can they and I cannot?).

Did I find funny all the NPC movement and schedule in The Witcher? You bet, I love the Witcher! But after 3 full runs with TW-EE, they are not that noticable and they really don't contribute to the story itself. Except to make us "meditate" when we want to advance the clock or go looking for them when we need them and they are wandering around the place. (It is still fun to watch their reaction to rain!)

Do I love the Gothics (many runs) and Risen (7 runs) and the very particular Piranha Bytes style of fun? Absolutely! G2 and Risen are easily among the best rpg's I've played. But even if it's past midnight and all NPC are in bed, we can just walk and wake them and they will act like it was no big deal and trade, talk, interact in any way we want, no matter if they should be really pissed off at someone interrupting their rest.

I see no point in comparing games though. And after some 300 hours into DA, I have to ask myself, did any other game cause such strong impact in my emotions OOC? No. Not even BG2 which had its moments, not like DA. And if I remember the "So, who cried at the end?" thread, a whole lot of people felt it too. And not always sad tears but sometimes, how do you say that in english, just good pride and sense of accomplishment perhaps?

There is something really magic about DA, something that I simply had to try and capture. For me it was the first time that I felt compelled to make movies of a game and I have some 50 of them already. Because each moment in DA is unique. A battle will never be replayed the same way, the party chat will never occur in the same order, at the same place. For a particular moment in DA, there are possibly way more possibilities than I can calculate. While in other games, including The Witcher and even Gothic, it all replays exactly the same. Not talking only about mechanics or the order we may choose to make those things happen.

I don't think I'll ever have a non-hardened Leliana jumping to kill an Ogre at the same time as her lover which happened to be a goodie-goodie, in that particular situation, after that particular dialogue sequence and give me that epic movie! Because it will not be the same char, it will not be the same sequence of events in the relationship and I risk to say, if it ever happens, it will never be at that exact fight and section of the game!

Thus, for me, such small details like some pedant noble arguing all the time at the market with her servant or kids running in circle have no weight in all that DA has in the Epic departament. Only thing in DA that always repeat themselves are some particular cutscenes. And not all of them since the guest stars in some, change all the time.

Modifié par RageGT, 18 décembre 2009 - 04:21 .