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[Michelle Howe]

First off, I'm not researching this too much so feel free to correct me on things.

Now, for those that don't know, Mac Walters was the lead writer for Mass Effect 3 and Drew Karpyshyn was the writer for the first game. Mac and Drew worked together on the second one.

Now lots of spoilers from here on out for all ME games.

As far as the Collectors being Protheans in ME2, I have a feeling this was a call by Mac Walters, not Drew. Drew strikes me as a conserative (but excellent) writer. I'm not TOO fimilar with a lot of his work out side of Mass Effect, though. Knights of the Old Republic, sure! Neverwinter, not so much. I vaguely recall Baldur's Gate II. But that Collector business always struck me as a little "put on". It's a fine twist, but it felt like a dues ex machina.

Anyway, Mac strikes me as a brave writer willing to experiment. This is great and seemed to work okay with Drew, who is an experienced writer and a traditional one (who could balance Mac out), but when Mac was paired with 
Neil Pollner, a writer with only 5-7 years in the business (and all of it at Bioware), Mac's crazy ideas (god child, space magic) got out of control with no one to check him.

Now, I'm okay with a twist ending and something unexpected. I loved Fahrenheit's ending (Indigo Prophecy here in the states. It's a game by a seperate developer, Quantic Dream), but for a series where EVERY decision you make deterimines what happens around in a game, where many, if not most, of your fans have spent 100+ hours of their lives in and many felt every up and down personally, you do NOT leave out an option to save your character, to save your avatar, to save yourself. Shepard's story ends here and that's fine, but all too many writers think that means "kill 'em off". Shepard wasn't born to battle. She wanted to settle down and retire. She wanted a life. If she had simply accepted she was an old soldier, okay. But she wanted kids! Comon!

Now, all games likes this are written as a group effort, but seriously. Writing direction. Set us up for a satisfying ending one way or the other. Not let Shepard live if she didn't think she could have a normal life after this. Not killing her if she wanted to live and have children and grow old. THAT'S an end to her story too.

I dunno. Just my opinion. I get very heavily emotionally invested in good stories but this... a story is judged by it's opening and mostly it's ending. This ending wasn't good for me.

I just think that while Mac is a good, if unconventional, writer, sometimes he needs someone to pull him back. Maybe I'm attributing story elements that weren't his, however. But he WAS the lead writer, so... all responibility goes to him. xD

Anywho, I'm just curious if people have drawn these lines as well or if I'm seeing epileptic tress.

Modifié par Michelle Howe, 22 juillet 2012 - 03:45 .

[MegaSovereign]

The Dark Energy was a force that was going to consume everything. According to Karpyshyn, "The Reapers as a whole were 'nations' of people who had fused together in the most horrific way possible to help find a way to stop the spread of the Dark Energy. The real reason for the Human Reaper was supposed to be the Reapers saving throw because they had run out of time. Humanity in Mass Effect is supposedly unique because of its genetic diversity and represented the universe's best chance at stopping Dark Energy's spread."

The original choice was between killing the Reapers and trying to find a way to stop the Dark Energy threat with what little time was left before it consumed the galaxy, or, "Sacrifice humanity, allowing them to be horrifically processed in hopes that the end result will justify the means."

This still doesn't change the main sticking point of fans: all of the recruitment, all of the alliances, all of the sacrifices, were essentially moot because they essentially were inconsequential to the resolution.

[dirty console peasant]

Well Mac did write Garrus in ME1 and Garrus is an amazing character. I just think the main problem is the ego of everyone at bioware to not admit that they screwed up royally and just fix the ending. Also to give us some real side missions, not fetch quests.

[Michelle Howe]

I heard about the Dark Energy ending a bit but I didn't know it was Drew's idea. Thanks for that. But before I knew it was Drew's, I thought that THAT idea made a lot more sense. Now I know why.

And don't get me wrong. I wanted to sit through about 15 minutes-30 minutes of (interactive?) cut-scenes for the ending to see how everything turned out, but... alas. I mean, that long of an ending seems modest for such a long series. :\\ I was fully expecting that, but... nothing.

[AresKeith]

Michelle Howe wrote...

I heard about the Dark Energy ending a bit but I didn't know it was Drew's idea. Thanks for that. But before I knew it was Drew's, I thought that THAT idea made a lot more sense. Now I know why.

And don't get me wrong. I wanted to sit through about 15 minutes-30 minutes of (interactive?) cut-scenes for the ending to see how everything turned out, but... alas. I mean, that long of an ending seems modest for such a long series. : I was fully expecting that, but... nothing.

Drew's Dark Energy ending was very canon and it made ME2 tie in, but the end choices were still dumb, and made most of your choices pointless still. I think somewhere down the line Bioware just lost track of what to do.

[The Twilight God]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Well Mac did write Garrus in ME1 and Garrus is an amazing character. I just think the main problem is the ego of everyone at bioware to not admit that they screwed up royally and just fix the ending. Also to give us some real side missions, not fetch quests.

Any non-priority mission was a side mission. The reason being that given the situation Shepard wouldn't be off fighting random mercs and whatnot.

[AresKeith]

The Twilight God wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Well Mac did write Garrus in ME1 and Garrus is an amazing character. I just think the main problem is the ego of everyone at bioware to not admit that they screwed up royally and just fix the ending. Also to give us some real side missions, not fetch quests.

Any non-priority mission was a side mission. The reason being that given the situation Shepard wouldn't be off fighting random mercs and whatnot.

true but most of the fetch quest were in Reaper areas, so that would have been a good quick shooting husks mission or having to deal with other Indoctrinated forces besides Cerberus

[Michelle Howe]

I'm sure there's some marketing reasons to consider. And perhaps Mac's ego is being taken into account, which would be natural. Considering the "maintain the artistic integrity of the original endings" comments, this could have some truth.

Yeah, the star that Tali was working on in ME2. Great tie in. In hindsight, kinda wtf, mate? ME2 could be cut out of the ME universe and be none the worse for wear.

I figure that the ending should have been a choice of two, maybe three things you can choose to do, but afterwards, you get to see how this decision ties into all the others. Long ending cinematic, go. Having an ending DETERMINED by your choices would be technically unfeasible. But having your end choice DETERMINE how your other choices play out seperately is feasible.

Having about 16 things to keep track of in their 2-3 different outcomes and cross referenced with the final choice you'd make, while monumental, is well within possiblity, given the scope of the series thus far. It'd be, by far, the most complicated, but not impossible.

While this is, somewhat, what the extended cut tried to acomplish, it didn't do it sufficently enough. I believe the tie in to the final decision (a different set of final decisions than what was in the game) should adversely but reasonably affect all the other decisions you've made to determine what happenes in a series of unrelated cutscenes with a few to tie it altogether. It's a tall order, but it's the only way to satisfactorily end the series and still make it technically feasible.

Modifié par Michelle Howe, 22 juillet 2012 - 04:04 .

[thefallen2far]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Well Mac did write Garrus in ME1 and Garrus is an amazing character. I just think the main problem is the ego of everyone at bioware to not admit that they screwed up royally and just fix the ending. Also to give us some real side missions, not fetch quests.

I thought he was a tool in Mass Effect 1. It wasn't until 2 that he got interesting.

[Michelle Howe]

thefallen2far wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Well Mac did write Garrus in ME1 and Garrus is an amazing character. I just think the main problem is the ego of everyone at bioware to not admit that they screwed up royally and just fix the ending. Also to give us some real side missions, not fetch quests.

I thought he was a tool in Mass Effect 1. It wasn't until 2 that he got interesting.

I tenitively agree. Garrus was okay in ME1, but in ME2 & ME3, he was sexy. This, however, could still be Mac's writing. if it is, very excellent job. But I have a feeling it was one of the other writer's jobs. Typically these storylines are given to a single senior writer and their team of one or two others, no?

... still need to go through another play with him as the love interest. xD 

Modifié par Michelle Howe, 22 juillet 2012 - 04:07 .

[The Twilight God]

thefallen2far wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Well Mac did write Garrus in ME1 and Garrus is an amazing character. I just think the main problem is the ego of everyone at bioware to not admit that they screwed up royally and just fix the ending. Also to give us some real side missions, not fetch quests.

I thought he was a tool in Mass Effect 1. It wasn't until 2 that he got interesting.

He was just a whiney lil boot licker in ME1. Please, Shepard, tell me what to think. Bo-ho C-sec agents must follow laws!!
 
In ME2 I was like "Oh sh*t, Garrus is a badass now".

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Well Mac did write Garrus in ME1 and Garrus is an amazing character. I just think the main problem is the ego of everyone at bioware to not admit that they screwed up royally and just fix the ending. Also to give us some real side missions, not fetch quests.

And TIM, Wrex (iirc), and Vega. I get the feeling he may have written Aria as well.

Mac is actually not too bad as a character writer.

[Michelle Howe]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Well Mac did write Garrus in ME1 and Garrus is an amazing character. I just think the main problem is the ego of everyone at bioware to not admit that they screwed up royally and just fix the ending. Also to give us some real side missions, not fetch quests.

And TIM, Wrex (iirc), and Vega. I get the feeling he may have written Aria as well.

Mac is actually not too bad as a character writer.

I... honestly thought those were some of the weaker characters. xD; TIM is okay. Wrex is just a walking sterotype but decent one (has some GOOD lines, though, sometimes), and Vega's story is good for being a new human character... the voice actor saved him. His voice is HOT. xD

If he DID do these characters, he did an alright job. None of the characters were horrible. But Liara, Tali, GARRUS, Joker, and EDI had the best ones. Other minor characters had great characterization for their roles, too. (Chambers, Donnely & Gabby, etc) Just my opinion, though. No need to go spreading it around.

Modifié par Michelle Howe, 22 juillet 2012 - 04:23 .

[blueumi]

Michelle Howe wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Well Mac did write Garrus in ME1 and Garrus is an amazing character. I just think the main problem is the ego of everyone at bioware to not admit that they screwed up royally and just fix the ending. Also to give us some real side missions, not fetch quests.

And TIM, Wrex (iirc), and Vega. I get the feeling he may have written Aria as well.

Mac is actually not too bad as a character writer.

I... honestly thought those were some of the weaker characters. xD; TIM is okay. Wrex is just a walking sterotype but decent one (has some GOOD lines, though, sometimes), and Vega's story is good for being a new human character... the voice actor saved him. His voice is HOT. xD

If he DID do these characters, he did an alright job. None of the characters were horrible. But Liara, Tali, GARRUS, Joker, and EDI had the best ones. Other minor characters had great characterization for their roles, too. (Chambers, Donnely & Gabby, etc) Just my opinion, though. No need to go spreading it around.

wrex was always one of my fav charectors he wants to change life for his people and make it better he was interesting

[ld1449]

Mac has no writing experience outside Bioware from what I can tell. He worked on Jade Empire, ME1 ME2 and ME3, with the three previous roles having only minor pieces on his plate. His first "BIG PIECE" from what I can find was the arrival DLC of ME2, arguably the worst received DLC of the second installment. He has no published works to his name, no credentials that I can find, and nothing to really showcase to anyone that says "Damn he did THAT"

At least not while they're saying it in a good way.

Drew DID have the collectors tie in with the plot of ME in one of his novels that covered the events between ME1 and ME2 with Kahlee Sanders as the protagonist again helping an autistic child with Biotic ability in Grissom Academy.

Drew may have had an ending on a similar framework as Mac, but that's where the similarities end. His Dark Energy ending fit with the lore in game, tied all the games together, had alot more foreshadowing, alot more plot and logic behind it than just space magic. The only real stretch of the imagination was humans having THAT much genetic diversity but that small bit needing suspension of disbelief is a hell of a lot better than nearly 60% of the EXTENDED endings requiring it.

[dirty console peasant]

The Twilight God wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Well Mac did write Garrus in ME1 and Garrus is an amazing character. I just think the main problem is the ego of everyone at bioware to not admit that they screwed up royally and just fix the ending. Also to give us some real side missions, not fetch quests.

Any non-priority mission was a side mission. The reason being that given the situation Shepard wouldn't be off fighting random mercs and whatnot.

yes it was, but I felt like we should have been combat dropped on dakunna to help support the living tanks, or maybe had some other missions that felt like they had weight.  Also Shepard does not have time to fight random mercs, but he has time to find a heating unit stabilizer?

[Michelle Howe]

blueumi wrote...

wrex was always one of my fav charectors he wants to change life for his people and make it better he was interesting

Don't get me wrong. Wrex's story was fine and interesting. What I'm refering to has to do with characterization itself. Though, I somewhat ammend my previous statement as Tali sorta falls into the "too innocent whiny girl" territory for me. Your mileage may vary, of course.

ld1449 wrote...

Mac has no writing experience outside Bioware from what I can tell. He worked on Jade Empire, ME1 ME2 and ME3, with the three previous roles having only minor pieces on his plate. His first "BIG PIECE" from what I can find was the arrival DLC of ME2, arguably the worst received DLC of the second installment. He has no published works to his name, no credentials that I can find, and nothing to really showcase to anyone that says "Damn he did THAT" 

At least not while they're saying it in a good way.

Drew DID have the collectors tie in with the plot of ME in one of his novels that covered the events between ME1 and ME2 with Kahlee Sanders as the protagonist again helping an autistic child with Biotic ability in Grissom Academy.

Drew may have had an ending on a similar framework as Mac, but that's where the similarities end. His Dark Energy ending fit with the lore in game, tied all the games together, had alot more foreshadowing, alot more plot and logic behind it than just space magic. The only real stretch of the imagination was humans having THAT much genetic diversity but that small bit needing suspension of disbelief is a hell of a lot better than nearly 60% of the EXTENDED endings requiring it.

Drew co-wrote Mass effect 2 with Mac, actually, but I'm not certain if Drew stuck around for the full writing process. I have a feeling he didn't and it gave Mac a bit more wiggle wrong with bad, unforeshadowed "plot twists" like the Collectors being Protheans. .

Drew having the Collector tie in with one of his novels doesn't nessiarrialy say anything except he was aware of the Collectors and wove them into the story.

It's only now that I realize that the BioWare I've been a fan of for so long was Drew-BioWare. Guess I have a new author to start reading.

Personally, I'm going to start checking all Bioware titles and if Mac is the single lead writer or even co-lead, I'm probally going to wait a while before I buy or just ignore it entirely. :\\ BioWare has some great writers there and some people who can pick some mean dialouge, but with Mac at the story helm, I don't think it'll be a story I want to experience.

[BatmanPWNS]

Patrick Weeke wrote Tali and so his no.1 in my book.

[crimzontearz]

may those responsible for this **** be demoted or removed altogether to prevent them to influence future titles

one down, one to go

[The Twilight God]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Well Mac did write Garrus in ME1 and Garrus is an amazing character. I just think the main problem is the ego of everyone at bioware to not admit that they screwed up royally and just fix the ending. Also to give us some real side missions, not fetch quests.

Any non-priority mission was a side mission. The reason being that given the situation Shepard wouldn't be off fighting random mercs and whatnot.

yes it was, but I felt like we should have been combat dropped on dakunna to help support the living tanks, or maybe had some other missions that felt like they had weight.  Also Shepard does not have time to fight random mercs, but he has time to find a heating unit stabilizer?

Yes, because he can just fly by and teleport up using the Normandy's teleporters. And pull fleets out of extra-dimensional portals. 

[ld1449]

Michelle Howe wrote...

Drew co-wrote Mass effect 2 with Mac, actually, but I'm not certain if Drew stuck around for the full writing process. I have a feeling he didn't and it gave Mac a bit more wiggle wrong with bad, unforeshadowed "plot twists" like the Collectors being Protheans. .

Drew having the Collector tie in with one of his novels doesn't nessiarrialy say anything except he was aware of the Collectors and wove them into the story.

It's only now that I realize that the BioWare I've been a fan of for so long was Drew-BioWare. Guess I have a new author to start reading.

Personally, I'm going to start checking all Bioware titles and if Mac is the single lead writer or even co-lead, I'm probally going to wait a while before I buy or just ignore it entirely. : BioWare has some great writers there and some people who can pick some mean dialouge, but with Mac at the story helm, I don't think it'll be a story I want to experience.

Like I said, Mac has no writing credentials whatsoever, at least none that I could find. The only reason he got the job was probably because he's Casey Hudson's best friend from what I understand.

[crimzontearz]

ld1449 wrote...

Michelle Howe wrote...Drew co-wrote Mass effect 2 with Mac, actually, but I'm not certain if Drew stuck around for the full writing process. I have a feeling he didn't and it gave Mac a bit more wiggle wrong with bad, unforeshadowed "plot twists" like the Collectors being Protheans. .Drew having the Collector tie in with one of his novels doesn't nessiarrialy say anything except he was aware of the Collectors and wove them into the story.It's only now that I realize that the BioWare I've been a fan of for so long was Drew-BioWare. Guess I have a new author to start reading.Personally, I'm going to start checking all Bioware titles and if Mac is the single lead writer or even co-lead, I'm probally going to wait a while before I buy or just ignore it entirely. : BioWare has some great writers there and some people who can pick some mean dialouge, but with Mac at the story helm, I don't think it'll be a story I want to experience.

Like I said, Mac has no writing credentials whatsoever, at least none that I could find. The only reason he got the job was probably because he's Casey Hudson's best friend from what I understand.

the headgear makes him an artist tho

[Michelle Howe]

crimzontearz wrote...

may those responsible for this **** be demoted or removed altogether to prevent them to influence future titles

one down, one to go

One down? If you're refering to Drew, he had nothing to do with ME3. And for ME2, he can't just overwrite everything Mac said or wanted because they were co-writers. And I think Drew left before before getting into the nitty gritty writing process of the game.

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Patrick Weeke wrote Tali and so his no.1 in my book.

Tali was pretty cool. Just didn't like her romance in ME2 when I played MaleShep. She came off as... a bit too... teenager, I guess. I've never played a male shep in 3 yet, though. Dunno if I will as the female voice is just SO much better to me. Plus playing a guy is weird. xD; That, and FemShep and Liara make a cuter couple than MaleShep & Liara. >_> *ahem*

ld1449 wrote...

Like I said, Mac has no writing credentials whatsoever, at least none that I could find. The only reason he got the job was probably because he's Casey Hudson's best friend from what I understand.

Ha! That'd make sense. Today, it's who you know, not your own merits. *sigh*

Modifié par Michelle Howe, 22 juillet 2012 - 01:33 .

[crimzontearz]

Michelle Howe wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...may those responsible for this **** be demoted or removed altogether to prevent them to influence future titlesone down, one to go

One down? If you're refering to Drew, he had nothing to do with ME3. And for ME2, he can't just overwrite everything Mac said or wanted because they were co-writers. And I think Drew left before before getting into the nitty gritty writing process of the game.

BatmanPWNS wrote...Patrick Weeke wrote Tali and so his no.1 in my book.

Tali was pretty cool. Just didn't like her romance in ME2 when I played MaleShep. She came off as... a bit too... teenager, I guess. I've never played a male shep in 3 yet, though. Dunno if I will as the female voice is just SO much better to me. Plus playing a guy is weird. xD;

ld1449 wrote...Like I said, Mac has no writing credentials whatsoever, at least none that I could find. The only reason he got the job was probably because he's Casey Hudson's best friend from what I understand.

Ha! That'd make sense. Today, it's who you know, not your own merits. *sigh*

Referring to Mac. You may believe the rumor is not founded but everyone saw the postage of the lead writer position up before it was swiftly removed. He is on his way out and good freaking riddance