255 réponses à ce sujet

[Binary_Helix 1]

JeffZero wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Dark Energy was a force that was going to consume everything. According to Karpyshyn, "The Reapers as a whole were 'nations' of people who had fused together in the most horrific way possible to help find a way to stop the spread of the Dark Energy. The real reason for the Human Reaper was supposed to be the Reapers saving throw because they had run out of time. Humanity in Mass Effect is supposedly unique because of its genetic diversity and represented the universe's best chance at stopping Dark Energy's spread."

The original choice was between killing the Reapers and trying to find a way to stop the Dark Energy threat with what little time was left before it consumed the galaxy, or, "Sacrifice humanity, allowing them to be horrifically processed in hopes that the end result will justify the means."

This still doesn't change the main sticking point of fans: all of the recruitment, all of the alliances, all of the sacrifices, were essentially moot because they essentially were inconsequential to the resolution.

And as much as I generally enjoy Drew's work, this would have made the vanilla endings look good by comparison.

Of course you'd say that. You've even said ME3 is your favorite of the trilogy.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 22 juillet 2012 - 08:14 .

[TMA LIVE]

Harbinger: Shepard... you are bacteria! You are pathetic! I know you feel this! But you most stop this war! We are here to save you from your destruct! You pollute the galaxy with Dark Energy! Because you are idiots! We gave you the Dark Energy technology so we can prevent you from destroying yourself with it, by using it! Now your only salvation is for all mankind to be turned into Reaper made of human goo! Or die! And believe me... I'm speaking in a peaceful manor.

Shepard: How am I suppose to take this seriously?

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 22 juillet 2012 - 08:28 .

[txgoldrush]

Drew K is overrated.

He sucks with characters plain and simple and he never knew how to impliment them in the story properly.

And the Dark Energy plot has far more plot holes than the current one, and really the current one is actually more in line with the series. Dark Energy is only foreshadowed in one ME2 mission.

"Created vs creators" has been a conflict all series long.

In fact, none of the ME plots are great, its that characters and the universe make up for it. ME1 is the worst because its characters can't cover the avergae plot.

Nevermind that ME1's ending also has plot holes and TWO deus ex machinas.

[txgoldrush]

Hell, DAO used Drew K style....Gaider finds out that it is flawed and switches styles for DA2. Maybe Leliana's Song exposed the flaw that was the lack of character development or that the character development wasn't really shown.

The problem with DA2 is that its rushed, resulting in plot holes the team couldn't cover, its Biowares "KOTOR II". However, the character development is one of Bioware's best and the cast is superior to DAO's one to two dimensional cast as they are better developed and more multidimensional. The relationships with eachother is far more complex and multidimensional.

[AresKeith]

txgoldrush wrote...

Drew K is overrated.

He sucks with characters plain and simple and he never knew how to impliment them in the story properly.

And the Dark Energy plot has far more plot holes than the current one, and really the current one is actually more in line with the series. Dark Energy is only foreshadowed in one ME2 mission.

"Created vs creators" has been a conflict all series long.

In fact, none of the ME plots are great, its that characters and the universe make up for it. ME1 is the worst because its characters can't cover the avergae plot.

Nevermind that ME1's ending also has plot holes and TWO deus ex machinas.

first off Mac does most of the Characters not Drew

Dark Energy is also talked about in Element Zero and the Mass Relays, and it was only an outline they could have still improved on that ending

Created vs creators was a subplot like most of the plots in ME, not a major one

get your facts straight before you bash someone

[chemiclord]

Are... we REALLY still going about this entire Dark Energy thing?

REALLY?

[BatmanPWNS]

txgoldrush wrote...

Drew K is overrated.

He sucks with characters plain and simple and he never knew how to impliment them in the story properly.

And the Dark Energy plot has far more plot holes than the current one, and really the current one is actually more in line with the series. Dark Energy is only foreshadowed in one ME2 mission.

"Created vs creators" has been a conflict all series long.

In fact, none of the ME plots are great, its that characters and the universe make up for it. ME1 is the worst because its characters can't cover the avergae plot.

Nevermind that ME1's ending also has plot holes and TWO deus ex machinas.

If Drew is overrated, then Mac is really BAD.

[flanny]

txgoldrush wrote...

Drew K is overrated.

He sucks with characters plain and simple and he never knew how to impliment them in the story properly.

And the Dark Energy plot has far more plot holes than the current one, and really the current one is actually more in line with the series. Dark Energy is only foreshadowed in one ME2 mission.

"Created vs creators" has been a conflict all series long.

In fact, none of the ME plots are great, its that characters and the universe make up for it. ME1 is the worst because its characters can't cover the avergae plot.

Nevermind that ME1's ending also has plot holes and TWO deus ex machinas.

well i disagree with everything you said . so just no to everything you just said

[txgoldrush]

AresKeith wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Drew K is overrated.

He sucks with characters plain and simple and he never knew how to impliment them in the story properly.

And the Dark Energy plot has far more plot holes than the current one, and really the current one is actually more in line with the series. Dark Energy is only foreshadowed in one ME2 mission.

"Created vs creators" has been a conflict all series long.

In fact, none of the ME plots are great, its that characters and the universe make up for it. ME1 is the worst because its characters can't cover the avergae plot.

Nevermind that ME1's ending also has plot holes and TWO deus ex machinas.

first off Mac does most of the Characters not Drew

Dark Energy is also talked about in Element Zero and the Mass Relays, and it was only an outline they could have still improved on that ending

Created vs creators was a subplot like most of the plots in ME, not a major one

get your facts straight before you bash someone

Wrong

It is a major one and encompasses far more than you think. Even several squaddies are examples in the "creators vs created" theme.

Just because you talk about it doesn't mean it will be based around it. In fact, if the Dark Energy plot was used, those would be plot holes.

Nevermind that Drew did the plot and was lead writer, which may have handcufffed Mac when it comes to characterization.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 22 juillet 2012 - 09:12 .

[txgoldrush]

flanny wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Drew K is overrated.

He sucks with characters plain and simple and he never knew how to impliment them in the story properly.

And the Dark Energy plot has far more plot holes than the current one, and really the current one is actually more in line with the series. Dark Energy is only foreshadowed in one ME2 mission.

"Created vs creators" has been a conflict all series long.

In fact, none of the ME plots are great, its that characters and the universe make up for it. ME1 is the worst because its characters can't cover the avergae plot.

Nevermind that ME1's ending also has plot holes and TWO deus ex machinas.

well i disagree with everything you said . so just no to everything you just said

Explain the Joker-Ilos plothole...which casues a Deus Ex Machina.

Nevermind that Vigil is a Deus Ex Machina as well.

[txgoldrush]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Drew K is overrated.

He sucks with characters plain and simple and he never knew how to impliment them in the story properly.

And the Dark Energy plot has far more plot holes than the current one, and really the current one is actually more in line with the series. Dark Energy is only foreshadowed in one ME2 mission.

"Created vs creators" has been a conflict all series long.

In fact, none of the ME plots are great, its that characters and the universe make up for it. ME1 is the worst because its characters can't cover the avergae plot.

Nevermind that ME1's ending also has plot holes and TWO deus ex machinas.

If Drew is overrated, then Mac is really BAD.

Better than Drew, he understands the characterization and character development is important.

[Total Biscuit]

A couple of important details from the Dark Energy plot outline everyone seems to have missed or forgotten:

Firstly, Dark Energy was primarily coming in from outside the galaxy, not due to pollution from Mass Effect tech, since that wouldn't make sense given the Reapera leaving that tech around to find in the first place, which ties into missed point 2;

The Reapers weren't just giant thinking machines sitting around trying to think of a permenant solution to the problem. They were also massive Dark Enegy sinks, acting as a barrier in dark space that hoovered up the energy before it reached the Galaxy, however...

Thirdly, the amount of Dark Energy coming into the Galaxy was steadily increasing, and the Reapers could only absorb so much of it, hence they had two reasons for harvesting species to bolster their numbers, both to counterbalance th increased Dark Energy input, and to get more minds linked into try to find a less stop gap way of solving the problem. The reason Heastrom was going nova and the Human Reaper was started early was because the delay in this cycle had meant DE was already beyond the Reapers current capacity to absorb.

So yeah, it still wasn't a great story outline, but it was at least more well thought out and consistent with the lore than the RGB bollocks we got.

[Femlob]

txgoldrush wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Drew K is overrated.

He sucks with characters plain and simple and he never knew how to impliment them in the story properly.

And the Dark Energy plot has far more plot holes than the current one, and really the current one is actually more in line with the series. Dark Energy is only foreshadowed in one ME2 mission.

"Created vs creators" has been a conflict all series long.

In fact, none of the ME plots are great, its that characters and the universe make up for it. ME1 is the worst because its characters can't cover the avergae plot.

Nevermind that ME1's ending also has plot holes and TWO deus ex machinas.

If Drew is overrated, then Mac is really BAD.

Better than Drew, he understands the characterization and character development is important.

Too bad that that's the only thing he understands. He should've stuck to writing characters and left the task of writing a coherent story to somebody else. Never bite off more than you can chew.

[timj2011]

Total Biscuit wrote...

A couple of important details from the Dark Energy plot outline everyone seems to have missed or forgotten:

Firstly, Dark Energy was primarily coming in from outside the galaxy, not due to pollution from Mass Effect tech, since that wouldn't make sense given the Reapera leaving that tech around to find in the first place, which ties into missed point 2;

The Reapers weren't just giant thinking machines sitting around trying to think of a permenant solution to the problem. They were also massive Dark Enegy sinks, acting as a barrier in dark space that hoovered up the energy before it reached the Galaxy, however...

Thirdly, the amount of Dark Energy coming into the Galaxy was steadily increasing, and the Reapers could only absorb so much of it, hence they had two reasons for harvesting species to bolster their numbers, both to counterbalance th increased Dark Energy input, and to get more minds linked into try to find a less stop gap way of solving the problem. The reason Heastrom was going nova and the Human Reaper was started early was because the delay in this cycle had meant DE was already beyond the Reapers current capacity to absorb.

So yeah, it still wasn't a great story outline, but it was at least more well thought out and consistent with the lore than the RGB bollocks we got.

Im not gonna lie...thats the strangest BS i've ever heard. Why would the reapers go through so much trouble to stop dark energy from hitting JUST ONE GALAXY? There are other galaxies out there, I am sure life will exist in other galaxies. Just let the milky way die. Yes I know the same could be said about synthetic life and what happens with the other galaxies, but it just seems more contained

[AresKeith]

timj2011 wrote...

Total Biscuit wrote...

A couple of important details from the Dark Energy plot outline everyone seems to have missed or forgotten:

Firstly, Dark Energy was primarily coming in from outside the galaxy, not due to pollution from Mass Effect tech, since that wouldn't make sense given the Reapera leaving that tech around to find in the first place, which ties into missed point 2;

The Reapers weren't just giant thinking machines sitting around trying to think of a permenant solution to the problem. They were also massive Dark Enegy sinks, acting as a barrier in dark space that hoovered up the energy before it reached the Galaxy, however...

Thirdly, the amount of Dark Energy coming into the Galaxy was steadily increasing, and the Reapers could only absorb so much of it, hence they had two reasons for harvesting species to bolster their numbers, both to counterbalance th increased Dark Energy input, and to get more minds linked into try to find a less stop gap way of solving the problem. The reason Heastrom was going nova and the Human Reaper was started early was because the delay in this cycle had meant DE was already beyond the Reapers current capacity to absorb.

So yeah, it still wasn't a great story outline, but it was at least more well thought out and consistent with the lore than the RGB bollocks we got.

Im not gonna lie...thats the strangest BS i've ever heard. Why would the reapers go through so much trouble to stop dark energy from hitting JUST ONE GALAXY? There are other galaxies out there, I am sure life will exist in other galaxies. Just let the milky way die. Yes I know the same could be said about synthetic life and what happens with the other galaxies, but it just seems more contained

thats because the first Cycle turned themselves into first Reaper to try and stop it

[TMA LIVE]

If it's coming from the outside, and not effected by anything anyone does, how does turning people into Reapers stop entire galaxies from dying? ME2 talked about how a Star was cooking planets. If that happens, how are those planets not cooked by the beginning of the new cycle? Wouldn't turning people into Reapers not effect that at all? And if Reapers did do something to stop it, why make new Reapers? Shouldn't the ones that already exist do the job?

[inko1nsiderate]

Just to point something out. Drew wrote the first book (released before the first game), and in the first book Anderson takes a while to talk about the threat true AI poses to organic life in the galaxy. He goes so far to say that the geth aren't true AI, that true AI would achieve something akin to a singularity, and that this would lead to war and destruction of organic life. The council considers true AI to be the largest threat to the galaxy, which is why AI research is outlawed.

I'd say Drew started out down the path of 'AI is dangerous' with the first book. It isn't something wholly new to the series.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 22 juillet 2012 - 10:07 .

[chemiclord]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

Just to point something out. Drew wrote the first book (released before the first game), and in the first book Anderson takes a while to talk about the threat true AI poses to organic life in the galaxy. He goes so far to say that the geth aren't true AI, that true AI would achieve something akin to a singularity, and that this would lead to war and destruction of organic life. The council considers true AI to be the largest threat to the galaxy, which is why AI research is outlawed.

I'd say Drew started out down the path of 'AI is dangerous' with the first book. It isn't something wholly new to the series.

Oh, it's definitely THERE... but I think it wasn't nearly developed enough IN GAME for many players to latch onto it as a main theme.  Players are given the aftermath of what apparently had led to a very strict "No AI" policy, but next to NONE of the context involved.

[TMA LIVE]

I mean, is this suppose to be the Reaper plot? That millions of years ago, some race realized Dark Energy was going to burn the galaxy? So they killed themselves and turned into Reapers, so they can slow down the Dark Energy for millions of years, while pointless killing and harvesting every organic every 50, 000 years for no damn reason, instead of giving the next cycle a heads up to a problem that needs to be solved?

[TMA LIVE]

Also, if I'm reading this right, then we are causing a Dark Energy problem based off this:

http://www.giantbomb...-540743/?page=2

[inko1nsiderate]

chemiclord wrote...

inko1nsiderate wrote...

Just to point something out. Drew wrote the first book (released before the first game), and in the first book Anderson takes a while to talk about the threat true AI poses to organic life in the galaxy. He goes so far to say that the geth aren't true AI, that true AI would achieve something akin to a singularity, and that this would lead to war and destruction of organic life. The council considers true AI to be the largest threat to the galaxy, which is why AI research is outlawed.

I'd say Drew started out down the path of 'AI is dangerous' with the first book. It isn't something wholly new to the series.

Oh, it's definitely THERE... but I think it wasn't nearly developed enough IN GAME for many players to latch onto it as a main theme.  Players are given the aftermath of what apparently had led to a very strict "No AI" policy, but next to NONE of the context involved.

In principal, a story that has a theme and later decides to build upon, refine, and focus on that theme is not a bad form of story telling (even if the theme wasn't the biggest theme in earlier instalments). This theme was there, and if ME1 and ME2 are supposed to be the preamble to ME3 (saw this used as a description for the ME trilogoy plans), then it makes sense why this lurking theme would come to the forefront after the significant setting and character development had been finished.

Some would say that these themes were largely absent from ME3 until the very end, but I'd generally disagree.  Particularly with Javik, EDI as sexbot, and other themes in ME3 I'd say conflict against creators is strong.  The Geth are a major part of ME3, talking to the Reaper hints that they think conflict between synthetic and organic is inevitable ('your war here disproves this' says the dying Reaper).  Then you have Javik, who goes really hardcore on the synthetic hate.  Add in the fact that EDI helps you take down her creator directly, and you start to see how synthetic conflict with their creators is a major part of ME3.  The Krogan rebellions were essentially created by the Salarians through their uplifting of the Krogan (the road to hell is paved on bad intentions) and it is implied the Salarians will try again with the Yahg.  First thing I think of when I hear 'Yahg' and 'covert uplifting' I think the Yahg will rebel in short order and cause far more destruction than the Krogan Rebellions.  This plays into that theme of created rebelling against creators.  Perhaps more importantly, I see  the themes of control, destruction, and synthesis play out throughout the game and not appear out of thin air at the end.  Control is represented by EDI taking over Eva's body, the Salarians attempt to sabotage and the Genophage itself fit as well, possibly Admiral Xen's obsession with taking control of the Geth again, and obviously TIM.  Destruction is exemplified by Javik, Vega, and Admiral Gerall.  These are the characters focused on destruction of the Reapers (or the Geth in the case of Gerall).  Synthesis is represented in every time Shepard is able to find a third path that amolerates conflict, or in the EDI/Joker romance, Legions sacrifice to bring freedom to the Geth and peace between the Geth and their creators, and more generally through Shepard's efforts to unite a galaxy starting all the way back in ME1.

Then again, that doesn't mean you can't think of the endings as 'thematically revolting', and there is probably a fair bit of revisionism happening here in my view of the trilogy as a whole.  To me it still feels like ME3 picked up a particular thread that had been woven throughout the story and decided to emphasize it for the purposes of the finale of Shepard's journey.

I think the only place Mac Walters and Casey Hudson might have gotten carried away was with synthesis.  Bringing in ideas from futurism that hadn't really been seen in Mass Effect, and making it a transhumanist utopia do seem a little over the top (at very best).

Anyway, that was a bit of a tangent, back to lurking.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 22 juillet 2012 - 11:15 .

[The Angry One]

timj2011 wrote...

Im not gonna lie...thats the strangest BS i've ever heard. Why would the reapers go through so much trouble to stop dark energy from hitting JUST ONE GALAXY? There are other galaxies out there, I am sure life will exist in other galaxies. Just let the milky way die. Yes I know the same could be said about synthetic life and what happens with the other galaxies, but it just seems more contained

Maybe because it's their galaxy and all their stuff is there?
I could make the same argument for spacebaby's ridiculous ass-backward solution.

[TMA LIVE]

The Angry One wrote...

timj2011 wrote...

Im not gonna lie...thats the strangest BS i've ever heard. Why would the reapers go through so much trouble to stop dark energy from hitting JUST ONE GALAXY? There are other galaxies out there, I am sure life will exist in other galaxies. Just let the milky way die. Yes I know the same could be said about synthetic life and what happens with the other galaxies, but it just seems more contained

Maybe because it's their galaxy and all their stuff is there?
I could make the same argument for spacebaby's ridiculous ass-backward solution.

Are you saying that because you believe it? Or just because you'd prefer anything another then the ending you didn't like, even if it was of the same bad quality?

There's such a thing as "Neither ending is good".

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 22 juillet 2012 - 11:21 .

[The Angry One]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Are you saying that because you believe it? Or just because you'd prefer anything another then the ending you didn't like, even if it was of the same bad quality?

There's such a thing as "Neither ending is good".

I've already told you what I prefer.
I am stating that the Reapers preserving the Milky Way from dark energy badness makes perfect sense if they're from the Milky Way.

[TMA LIVE]

The Angry One wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Are you saying that because you believe it? Or just because you'd prefer anything another then the ending you didn't like, even if it was of the same bad quality?

There's such a thing as "Neither ending is good".

I've already told you what I prefer.
I am stating that the Reapers preserving the Milky Way from dark energy badness makes perfect sense if they're from the Milky Way.

What?

Apparenlty I'm wasting my time.