255 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

TMA LIVE wrote...

What?

Apparenlty I'm wasting my time.

Which part about defending their home do you not understand?
If you're going to be obtuse then do not waste MY time.
What possible benefit is there in fleeing to other galaxies if dark energy is going to catch up to them sooner or later?

Modifié par The Angry One, 22 juillet 2012 - 11:30 .

[inko1nsiderate]

TMA LIVE wrote...


What?

Apparenlty I'm wasting my time.

On the one hand, it makes sense for a race from the Milky Way to try and save the Milky Way because that is where they are from and they might not know of life in other galaxies.  On the other hand, it doesn't make sense for Reapers to save the life in the Milky Way that isn't them.  In this case, it is unclear how Dark Energy threatens Reapers.  Is their motivation supposed to be the saving of life in general, or specifically to ensure their form remains until the end times?  I mean, regardless of the Dark Energy situation the unvierse is going to die from heat death.  Perhaps more importantly, how does stopping the Dark Energy locally save you at all?  It might prevent your planets from getting fried by suns like Haestrom, but if the Universe has crap tons of Dark Energy in it, the accelerating expansion of the universe is going to continue to increase as a function of time.  If the only place that is safe is the Milky Way, won't the expansion eventually be strong enough to overcome the gravitational binding of the Milky Way itself and basically you'll get a big rip?  It seems like the Reapers have to stop the Dark Energy everywhere, otherwise they are doomed to failure from the start.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 22 juillet 2012 - 11:32 .

[The Angry One]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

On the one hand, it makes sense for a race from the Milky Way to try and save the Milky Way because that is where they are from and they might not know of life in other galaxies.  On the other hand, it doesn't make sense for Reapers to save the life in the Milky Way that isn't them.  In this case, it is unclear how Dark Energy threatens Reapers.  Is their motivation supposed to be the saving of life in general, or specifically to ensure their form remains until the end times?  I mean, regardless of the Dark Energy situation the unvierse is going to die from heat death.  Perhaps more importantly, how does stopping the Dark Energy locally save you at all?  It might prevent your planets from getting fried by suns like Haestrom, but if the Universe has crap tons of Dark Energy in it, the accelerating expansion of the universe is going to increase.  If the only place that is safe is the Milky Way, won't the expansion eventually be strong enough to overcome the gravitational binding of the Milky Way itself and basically you'll get a big rip?  It seems like the Reapers have to stop the Dark Energy everywhere, otherwise they are doomed to failure from the start.

The human Reaper was apparently going to present a permanent solution.

[TMA LIVE]

The Angry One wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

What?

Apparenlty I'm wasting my time.

Which part about defending their home do you not understand?
If you're going to be obtuse then do not waste MY time.
What possible benefit is there in fleeing to other galaxies if dark energy is going to catch up to them sooner or later?

Aren't the Reapers home to the Milky Way in the ending we already have? And trying to protect it by stopping Synthetics?

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 22 juillet 2012 - 11:34 .

[inko1nsiderate]

The Angry One wrote...

inko1nsiderate wrote...

On the one hand, it makes sense for a race from the Milky Way to try and save the Milky Way because that is where they are from and they might not know of life in other galaxies.  On the other hand, it doesn't make sense for Reapers to save the life in the Milky Way that isn't them.  In this case, it is unclear how Dark Energy threatens Reapers.  Is their motivation supposed to be the saving of life in general, or specifically to ensure their form remains until the end times?  I mean, regardless of the Dark Energy situation the unvierse is going to die from heat death.  Perhaps more importantly, how does stopping the Dark Energy locally save you at all?  It might prevent your planets from getting fried by suns like Haestrom, but if the Universe has crap tons of Dark Energy in it, the accelerating expansion of the universe is going to increase.  If the only place that is safe is the Milky Way, won't the expansion eventually be strong enough to overcome the gravitational binding of the Milky Way itself and basically you'll get a big rip?  It seems like the Reapers have to stop the Dark Energy everywhere, otherwise they are doomed to failure from the start.

The human Reaper was apparently going to present a permanent solution.

How?  It is going to magically suck in all the Dark Energy in the entire universe (or at least stop its spread)?  Doesn't that seem... even more ridiculous than the endings we have?  We aren't talking about huge waves of energy hitting an entire galaxy, we are talking about sucking up Dark Energy over what is possibly infinite in volume (but at bare minimum has a radius of 13 billion light years).

[The Angry One]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Aren't the Reapers home to the Milky Way in the ending we already have? And trying to protect it by stopping Synthetics?

The difference is, if they can't stop big bad synthetics from taking over in other galaxies, what's stopping those synthetics coming over here and kicking their asses?
Oh yeah unless the Catalyst is talking complete nonsense and this has never happened.

inko1nsiderate wrote...

How?  It is going to magically
suck in all the Dark Energy in the entire universe (or at least stop its
spread)?  Doesn't that seem... even more ridiculous than the endings we
have?  We aren't talking about huge waves of energy hitting an entire
galaxy, we are talking about sucking up Dark Energy over what is
possibly infinite in volume (but at bare minimum has a radius of 13
billion light years).

It would've discovered a new way to handle the dark energy problem permanently. Because humans.
Cheesy? Sure, but that's what ME2 was alluding to, and it's still better than spacebaby. Virtually anything is.

Modifié par The Angry One, 22 juillet 2012 - 11:37 .

[AresKeith]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

inko1nsiderate wrote...

On the one hand, it makes sense for a race from the Milky Way to try and save the Milky Way because that is where they are from and they might not know of life in other galaxies.  On the other hand, it doesn't make sense for Reapers to save the life in the Milky Way that isn't them.  In this case, it is unclear how Dark Energy threatens Reapers.  Is their motivation supposed to be the saving of life in general, or specifically to ensure their form remains until the end times?  I mean, regardless of the Dark Energy situation the unvierse is going to die from heat death.  Perhaps more importantly, how does stopping the Dark Energy locally save you at all?  It might prevent your planets from getting fried by suns like Haestrom, but if the Universe has crap tons of Dark Energy in it, the accelerating expansion of the universe is going to increase.  If the only place that is safe is the Milky Way, won't the expansion eventually be strong enough to overcome the gravitational binding of the Milky Way itself and basically you'll get a big rip?  It seems like the Reapers have to stop the Dark Energy everywhere, otherwise they are doomed to failure from the start.

The human Reaper was apparently going to present a permanent solution.

How?  It is going to magically suck in all the Dark Energy in the entire universe (or at least stop its spread)?  Doesn't that seem... even more ridiculous than the endings we have?  We aren't talking about huge waves of energy hitting an entire galaxy, we are talking about sucking up Dark Energy over what is possibly infinite in volume (but at bare minimum has a radius of 13 billion light years).

it was never fully finish because Drew had left an worked on SWTOR, that was only an outline so no one reviewed it or anything, I think

[inko1nsiderate]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

How?  It is going to magically
suck in all the Dark Energy in the entire universe (or at least stop its
spread)?  Doesn't that seem... even more ridiculous than the endings we
have?  We aren't talking about huge waves of energy hitting an entire
galaxy, we are talking about sucking up Dark Energy over what is
possibly infinite in volume (but at bare minimum has a radius of 13
billion light years).

It would've discovered a new way to handle the dark energy problem permanently. Because humans.
Cheesy? Sure, but that's what ME2 was alluding to, and it's still better than spacebaby. Virtually anything is.

 At some point, when all the rest of the universe is drowning in a sea of Dark Energy, the galaxy will get ripped apart regardless of whether or not you can prevent the Dark Energy from entering the galaxy via the Human Reaper.  This isn't a better ending, and it just seems like a big rip off of that Dr. Who episode that had the humans turning themselves into horrible abominations to try and escape the death of the universe, only to find out it was impossible.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 22 juillet 2012 - 11:42 .

[TMA LIVE]

If we can't criticize it, then people can't call it a better ending. You shouldn't call it anything.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 22 juillet 2012 - 11:42 .

[TMA LIVE]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

inko1nsiderate wrote...

How?  It is going to magically
suck in all the Dark Energy in the entire universe (or at least stop its
spread)?  Doesn't that seem... even more ridiculous than the endings we
have?  We aren't talking about huge waves of energy hitting an entire
galaxy, we are talking about sucking up Dark Energy over what is
possibly infinite in volume (but at bare minimum has a radius of 13
billion light years).

It would've discovered a new way to handle the dark energy problem permanently. Because humans.
Cheesy? Sure, but that's what ME2 was alluding to, and it's still better than spacebaby. Virtually anything is.

 At some point, when all the rest of the universe is drowning in a sea of Dark Energy, the galaxy will get ripped apart regardless of whether or not you can prevent the Dark Energy from entering the galaxy via the Human Reaper.  This isn't a better ending, and it just seems like a big rip off of that Dr. Who episode that had the humans turning themselves into horrible abominations to try and escape the death of the universe, only to find out it was impossible.

So pick your poison? Deus Ex or Dr. Who?

[garrusfan1]

crimzontearz wrote...

may those responsible for this **** be demoted or removed altogether to prevent them to influence future titles

one down, one to go

Which one is down

[crimzontearz]

garrusfan1 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...may those responsible for this **** be demoted or removed altogether to prevent them to influence future titlesone down, one to go

Which one is down

walters

[LinksOcarina]

The Angry One wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Are you saying that because you believe it? Or just because you'd prefer anything another then the ending you didn't like, even if it was of the same bad quality?

There's such a thing as "Neither ending is good".

I've already told you what I prefer.
I am stating that the Reapers preserving the Milky Way from dark energy badness makes perfect sense if they're from the Milky Way.

Ok then, so why would they create a final solution to something when they typically harvest races every 50,000 years? That to me is a leap in logic of the reapers motivations, assuming that is what they planned for the dark energy plot, and that they did live in the Milky Way. 

[AresKeith]

LinksOcarina wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Are you saying that because you believe it? Or just because you'd prefer anything another then the ending you didn't like, even if it was of the same bad quality?

There's such a thing as "Neither ending is good".

I've already told you what I prefer.
I am stating that the Reapers preserving the Milky Way from dark energy badness makes perfect sense if they're from the Milky Way.

Ok then, so why would they create a final solution to something when they typically harvest races every 50,000 years? That to me is a leap in logic of the reapers motivations, assuming that is what they planned for the dark energy plot, and that they did live in the Milky Way. 

because the first Reaper was the first cycle that found out about and failed to stop it then, so for reason they started to Harvest every 50,000 to try and stop it, and when they started to run outta time they assume that a Human Reaper would be able to

[XqctaX]

sporeian wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Drew gave up halfway through.

You can't blame Mac for not ending the story the way Drew would've, because Drew wasn't around.

I don't think that Drew gave up.

I know he left, but the reason behind his departure to the ToR team is unknown to me.

on his hompage (i think thats were i read it, or it was from an interview) he himself said he wanted more time to golf and have "free time"

[Kyle Kabanya]

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Well Mac did write Garrus in ME1 and Garrus is an amazing character. I just think the main problem is the ego of everyone at bioware to not admit that they screwed up royally and just fix the ending. Also to give us some real side missions, not fetch quests.

History is doomed to repeat itself. I thought Bioware learned from DA2, but I guess not. Those fetch quests are so pointless, they shouldn't even bnother creating them.

ME1 was the best in the whole series along with the characters. They were unique, different, and they had feelings behind what they said. Garrus and Liara are my two favorite characters in the whole series.

But about the ending, it should have been focused on destroying the reapers, or becoming one to stop the dark energy. In ME3, the whole plot to ME2 became irrelevant because it boiled down to organics vs. synthetics = hybrid evolution. They screwed the ending so bad, that it made ME2 pointless in the series. And it made the original mission set by Shepard in ME1, to stop Saren and Reapers. KEY WORD: STOP. Not control them, not turn everyone into one, not to fail, but stop, equivalent to destroy.

Seriously, ME3 was a disaster, and it ruined ME2's contribution to the main story. Jeez Bioware, you really outdid yourself this time. Only way to save the franchise is to retconn ME3, like final fantasy did. No MMO or spinoff will help the franchise. The franchise died with Shep.

[XqctaX]

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Dark Energy was a force that was going to consume everything. According to Karpyshyn, "The Reapers as a whole were 'nations' of people who had fused together in the most horrific way possible to help find a way to stop the spread of the Dark Energy. The real reason for the Human Reaper was supposed to be the Reapers saving throw because they had run out of time. Humanity in Mass Effect is supposedly unique because of its genetic diversity and represented the universe's best chance at stopping Dark Energy's spread."

The original choice was between killing the Reapers and trying to find a way to stop the Dark Energy threat with what little time was left before it consumed the galaxy, or, "Sacrifice humanity, allowing them to be horrifically processed in hopes that the end result will justify the means."

This still doesn't change the main sticking point of fans: all of the recruitment, all of the alliances, all of the sacrifices, were essentially moot because they essentially were inconsequential to the resolution.

the choice of fighting of sacrifising could have been presented earlier in the game than the last 5 min
and deciding to fight could have ment continuios fighting and last mission were all those decitions and assets
played out wonderfully.

choosing to sacrifice humans could have ment continuinos gameplay aswell 
with choices and assets playing out wonderfully asell, But your switched sides in the war

your now playing on team reaper rest of game.:O:O

[LinksOcarina]

AresKeith wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Are you saying that because you believe it? Or just because you'd prefer anything another then the ending you didn't like, even if it was of the same bad quality?

There's such a thing as "Neither ending is good".

I've already told you what I prefer.
I am stating that the Reapers preserving the Milky Way from dark energy badness makes perfect sense if they're from the Milky Way.

Ok then, so why would they create a final solution to something when they typically harvest races every 50,000 years? That to me is a leap in logic of the reapers motivations, assuming that is what they planned for the dark energy plot, and that they did live in the Milky Way. 

because the first Reaper was the first cycle that found out about and failed to stop it then, so for reason they started to Harvest every 50,000 to try and stop it, and when they started to run outta time they assume that a Human Reaper would be able to

Making the reapers the true renegades of the galaxy...

I have to ask, would people like the Reapers as a necessary evil that way? Other than TheAngryOne who said it might be better.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 23 juillet 2012 - 12:55 .

[AresKeith]

Idk, but the end choices would be sacrifice humanity or kill the Reapers and hope everyon can solve the problem

[drinkurmilk]

You hear a lot of capricious derision towards Walters and Hudson on these forums, largely unjust, substantiated by puns and/or tedious memes.  Membership of these forums would suggest that most here are fans of Mass Effect, yet these fans are quick to condemn two whom account for so much of the ME universe as we know it.

Firstly, It is naive to assume that these are the only two "implicated" by the direction of the endings.  There are teams of writers and assessors whose job descriptions will suggest otherwise. 

Also, to acknowledge that all of us are running on assumption here is paramount to any degree of balanced discussion.  Statements ala "I have a feeling this was a call by Mac Walters, not Drew" and vice versa are not factual and should not be dressed up as being so.  This is not a shot at OP, this is a general statement towards the many members of this forum who attest things to individuals without properly substantiating these claims.

Drew Ks literary works in and beyond Mass Effect show a keen interest in scrupulous detail.  It is his modus operandi.  It is safe to suggest that he played a large part in grounding ME with some degree of tangibility in terms of its attention to detail and numerous codex entries. 

Although it could be argued that Mac W's work with comics stands directly juxtaposed to Drew's novels, highlighting his strengths as an emotive writer and, it's easy to look too much into it.  Contrary to what many on this forum will choose to believe, a lead writer for a well-established game series will more than likely be there on merit. 

I do not understand Karpyshyn's attaining of martyr status.  He was a mixed bag, and I would argue that for everything lost by Drew's deprture, other hugely important aspects of the ME universe we know and love today would not have flourished with him still there, which would be a great shame. 

Blaming Walters for the "Action", "RPG" and "normal" options for gameplay is plainly absurd.  Decisions regarding fundamentals will almost certainly be made at a higher level.  It's also entirely speculative to suggest this impacted anything in the final product. 

Finally, I would be willing to wager rather highly against the idea that the "Dark Energy" plot was the brainchild of Drew alone. 

[ld1449]

Total Biscuit wrote...

A couple of important details from the Dark Energy plot outline everyone seems to have missed or forgotten:

Firstly, Dark Energy was primarily coming in from outside the galaxy, not due to pollution from Mass Effect tech, since that wouldn't make sense given the Reapera leaving that tech around to find in the first place, which ties into missed point 2;

The Reapers weren't just giant thinking machines sitting around trying to think of a permenant solution to the problem. They were also massive Dark Enegy sinks, acting as a barrier in dark space that hoovered up the energy before it reached the Galaxy, however...

Thirdly, the amount of Dark Energy coming into the Galaxy was steadily increasing, and the Reapers could only absorb so much of it, hence they had two reasons for harvesting species to bolster their numbers, both to counterbalance th increased Dark Energy input, and to get more minds linked into try to find a less stop gap way of solving the problem. The reason Heastrom was going nova and the Human Reaper was started early was because the delay in this cycle had meant DE was already beyond the Reapers current capacity to absorb.

So yeah, it still wasn't a great story outline, but it was at least more well thought out and consistent with the lore than the RGB bollocks we got.

Actually from my understanding Dark Energy is the Byproduct of Mass Effect fields.

The first AI from the first civilization discovered the Dark Energy build up first, and realized that now it had gotten started it was more or less having a snowball effect, growing on its own. It had no method of stopping it.

Eventually the AI ran the numbers and came up with a solution. Hence Reapers, as you said, Reapers could absorb some of this dark energy build up, but it wasn't enough, it was still growing because of the continuous use of Mass Effect fields.

So they put the galaxy on Pause, harvesting all organic life, turning them into more reapers, deactivating the Mass Relays.

As I said Dark energy was still "growing" on its own but at a very slow rate with Reapers absorbing it and the bulk of Mass Effect technology shut down around the galaxy.

Every 50k years is just long enough to get space fairing species a chance to come out. They discover the Citadel and use it for 2 or 3 thousand years, a fraction of the 50k the reapers wait out, deactivated in dark space, then the reapers come in clean up and put the galaxy on pause again, harvesting to make more reapers and hoping to find a species with enough genetic diversity to become one supremely powerful reaper, capable of absorbing and processing the Dark Energy, a by product of Mass effect fields back into Mass Effect energy, like recycling. something that the reapers up to that point didn't have the capacity to do.

The AI didn't fathom just how long it would take him to find this genetically diverse species and by the time humanity rolled around the Dark Energy was practically busting down the doors ready to make the universe implode or something.

That was the general outline for the Dark Energy plot to my understanding. A problem the reapers had to find a solution to and simply couldn't stop.

[ld1449]

Whops double post.

Modifié par ld1449, 23 juillet 2012 - 01:26 .

[ld1449]

Oooookaaay are the forums bugged??? Because this post came in three times:?

Modifié par ld1449, 23 juillet 2012 - 01:31 .

[HBC Dresden]

Michelle Howe wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Well Mac did write Garrus in ME1 and Garrus is an amazing character. I just think the main problem is the ego of everyone at bioware to not admit that they screwed up royally and just fix the ending. Also to give us some real side missions, not fetch quests.

And TIM, Wrex (iirc), and Vega. I get the feeling he may have written Aria as well.

Mac is actually not too bad as a character writer.

I... honestly thought those were some of the weaker characters. xD; TIM is okay. Wrex is just a walking sterotype but decent one (has some GOOD lines, though, sometimes), and Vega's story is good for being a new human character... the voice actor saved him. His voice is HOT. xD

If he DID do these characters, he did an alright job. None of the characters were horrible. But Liara, Tali, GARRUS, Joker, and EDI had the best ones. Other minor characters had great characterization for their roles, too. (Chambers, Donnely & Gabby, etc) Just my opinion, though. No need to go spreading it around.

Wrex a walking stereotype? He is the one krogan male who is leveled-headed and witty. But with characters, there is no objective best. Each person has their preferences because they like the personalities (good or bad) of a certain character. But I guess you could discuss which character was done better.

[elitehunter34]

chrisutd wrote...

You hear a lot of capricious derision towards Walters and Hudson on these forums, largely unjust, substantiated by puns and/or tedious memes.  Membership of these forums would suggest that most here are fans of Mass Effect, yet these fans are quick to condemn two whom account for so much of the ME universe as we know it.

Firstly, It is naive to assume that these are the only two "implicated" by the direction of the endings.  There are teams of writers and assessors whose job descriptions will suggest otherwise. 

Also, to acknowledge that all of us are running on assumption here is paramount to any degree of balanced discussion.  Statements ala "I have a feeling this was a call by Mac Walters, not Drew" and vice versa are not factual and should not be dressed up as being so.  This is not a shot at OP, this is a general statement towards the many members of this forum who attest things to individuals without properly substantiating these claims.

Drew Ks literary works in and beyond Mass Effect show a keen interest in scrupulous detail.  It is his modus operandi.  It is safe to suggest that he played a large part in grounding ME with some degree of tangibility in terms of its attention to detail and numerous codex entries. 

Although it could be argued that Mac W's work with comics stands directly juxtaposed to Drew's novels, highlighting his strengths as an emotive writer and, it's easy to look too much into it.  Contrary to what many on this forum will choose to believe, a lead writer for a well-established game series will more than likely be there on merit. 

I do not understand Karpyshyn's attaining of martyr status.  He was a mixed bag, and I would argue that for everything lost by Drew's deprture, other hugely important aspects of the ME universe we know and love today would not have flourished with him still there, which would be a great shame. 

Blaming Walters for the "Action", "RPG" and "normal" options for gameplay is plainly absurd.  Decisions regarding fundamentals will almost certainly be made at a higher level.  It's also entirely speculative to suggest this impacted anything in the final product. 

Finally, I would be willing to wager rather highly against the idea that the "Dark Energy" plot was the brainchild of Drew alone. 

As much as I agree with some of your points, there is evidence to suggest that Mac and Casey are directly responsible for the endings and didn't put them through peer review.

 
http://www.gameranx....versial-ending/ 

Apparanlty Patrick Weekes stated this on a forum and subsequently had the posts deleted.  It's obvious why he did that because he didn't want be fired.  Granted it's not absolute proof, but I at least want to believe it's true.  I find it hard to believe that ending (even the EC) passed through peer review.  

That and the rumors of Bioware hiring a new lead writer because of the posting on their jobs page for a new lead writer that was noticed on the forums and quickly taken down.  That and Casey Hudson is now an executive producer instead of the project director.  Bioware might be responding to the fans, but quietly.  Just because Casey and Walters might have been responsible for the ending, doesn't mean their reputation should be ruined.