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Comparison of Mac Walters & Drew Karpyshyn (And the ME3 Ending)


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#151
LinksOcarina

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elitehunter34 wrote...

chrisutd wrote...

You hear a lot of capricious derision towards Walters and Hudson on these forums, largely unjust, substantiated by puns and/or tedious memes.  Membership of these forums would suggest that most here are fans of Mass Effect, yet these fans are quick to condemn two whom account for so much of the ME universe as we know it.

Firstly, It is naive to assume that these are the only two "implicated" by the direction of the endings.  There are teams of writers and assessors whose job descriptions will suggest otherwise. 

Also, to acknowledge that all of us are running on assumption here is paramount to any degree of balanced discussion.  Statements ala "I have a feeling this was a call by Mac Walters, not Drew" and vice versa are not factual and should not be dressed up as being so.  This is not a shot at OP, this is a general statement towards the many members of this forum who attest things to individuals without properly substantiating these claims.

Drew Ks literary works in and beyond Mass Effect show a keen interest in scrupulous detail.  It is his modus operandi.  It is safe to suggest that he played a large part in grounding ME with some degree of tangibility in terms of its attention to detail and numerous codex entries. 

Although it could be argued that Mac W's work with comics stands directly juxtaposed to Drew's novels, highlighting his strengths as an emotive writer and, it's easy to look too much into it.  Contrary to what many on this forum will choose to believe, a lead writer for a well-established game series will more than likely be there on merit. 

I do not understand Karpyshyn's attaining of martyr status.  He was a mixed bag, and I would argue that for everything lost by Drew's deprture, other hugely important aspects of the ME universe we know and love today would not have flourished with him still there, which would be a great shame. 

Blaming Walters for the "Action", "RPG" and "normal" options for gameplay is plainly absurd.  Decisions regarding fundamentals will almost certainly be made at a higher level.  It's also entirely speculative to suggest this impacted anything in the final product. 

Finally, I would be willing to wager rather highly against the idea that the "Dark Energy" plot was the brainchild of Drew alone. 

As much as I agree with some of your points, there is evidence to suggest that Mac and Casey are directly responsible for the endings and didn't put them through peer review.

 
http://www.gameranx....versial-ending/ 

Apparanlty Patrick Weekes stated this on a forum and subsequently had the posts deleted.  It's obvious why he did that because he didn't want be fired.  Granted it's not absolute proof, but I at least want to believe it's true.  I find it hard to believe that ending (even the EC) passed through peer review.  

That and the rumors of Bioware hiring a new lead writer because of the posting on their jobs page for a new lead writer that was noticed on the forums and quickly taken down.  That and Casey Hudson is now an executive producer instead of the project director.  Bioware might be responding to the fans, but quietly.  Just because Casey and Walters might have been responsible for the ending, doesn't mean their reputation should be ruined.


The problem is there is no way to confirm it was Weekes who said that, unless if he comes out and says it was him. You say yourself it is not difinitive proof, and the problem with rumors is that they are not a good source of truth, because they tend to tell us what we already believe. 

As for the job posting, new blood is always needed. You can't have the same guys write everything; if that happens you get real stagnation which is even more dangerous. My guess is, they are looking for a new lead writer for a new project down the line.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 23 juillet 2012 - 01:43 .


#152
ld1449

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elitehunter34 wrote...

chrisutd wrote...

You hear a lot of capricious derision towards Walters and Hudson on these forums, largely unjust, substantiated by puns and/or tedious memes.  Membership of these forums would suggest that most here are fans of Mass Effect, yet these fans are quick to condemn two whom account for so much of the ME universe as we know it.

Firstly, It is naive to assume that these are the only two "implicated" by the direction of the endings.  There are teams of writers and assessors whose job descriptions will suggest otherwise. 

Also, to acknowledge that all of us are running on assumption here is paramount to any degree of balanced discussion.  Statements ala "I have a feeling this was a call by Mac Walters, not Drew" and vice versa are not factual and should not be dressed up as being so.  This is not a shot at OP, this is a general statement towards the many members of this forum who attest things to individuals without properly substantiating these claims.

Drew Ks literary works in and beyond Mass Effect show a keen interest in scrupulous detail.  It is his modus operandi.  It is safe to suggest that he played a large part in grounding ME with some degree of tangibility in terms of its attention to detail and numerous codex entries. 

Although it could be argued that Mac W's work with comics stands directly juxtaposed to Drew's novels, highlighting his strengths as an emotive writer and, it's easy to look too much into it.  Contrary to what many on this forum will choose to believe, a lead writer for a well-established game series will more than likely be there on merit. 

I do not understand Karpyshyn's attaining of martyr status.  He was a mixed bag, and I would argue that for everything lost by Drew's deprture, other hugely important aspects of the ME universe we know and love today would not have flourished with him still there, which would be a great shame. 

Blaming Walters for the "Action", "RPG" and "normal" options for gameplay is plainly absurd.  Decisions regarding fundamentals will almost certainly be made at a higher level.  It's also entirely speculative to suggest this impacted anything in the final product. 

Finally, I would be willing to wager rather highly against the idea that the "Dark Energy" plot was the brainchild of Drew alone. 

As much as I agree with some of your points, there is evidence to suggest that Mac and Casey are directly responsible for the endings and didn't put them through peer review.

 
http://www.gameranx....versial-ending/ 

Apparanlty Patrick Weekes stated this on a forum and subsequently had the posts deleted.  It's obvious why he did that because he didn't want be fired.  Granted it's not absolute proof, but I at least want to believe it's true.  I find it hard to believe that ending (even the EC) passed through peer review.  

That and the rumors of Bioware hiring a new lead writer because of the posting on their jobs page for a new lead writer that was noticed on the forums and quickly taken down.  That and Casey Hudson is now an executive producer instead of the project director.  Bioware might be responding to the fans, but quietly.  Just because Casey and Walters might have been responsible for the ending, doesn't mean their reputation should be ruined.


I disagree. Your reputation is who you are what you do and how you work. If they're directly responsible for this ending then they should not get out of this unschathed because it shows they were arrogant enough to think they could do it on their own. Stupid enough to not be able to, and so careless they didn't even bother running it by their co workers, their fellow writers, their producers or damn near anyone who had their job invested in this game. I'm not going to feel sorry for them when their actions have contributed to one of the single worse literary devices ever seen in the last decade, and will directly contribute to the reputation of their company and the people who worked with them. Because make no mistake, everyone in that team is on the line of fire at this point. That's why they've never come out and flat out said its not true. They just deleted the post and said Weekes didn't write it.

Not just for the story they ruined but for all the grief they've given the people they worked with, they deserve every inch of vitriol and anger thrown at them. And their reputation should rightly suffer as well.

If a drug dealing gangster helps an old lady across the street does that mean he shouldn't be arrested? No.

Just because Mac wrote a character or two well does that mean the sheer carelessness and lack of consideration he showed his peers and the fanbase be dismissed? No.

Just because you did something good doesn't make up for a **** up down the road.

So they deserve it as far as I'm concerned.

#153
crimzontearz

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one down....one to go

#154
LinksOcarina

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crimzontearz wrote...

one down....one to go


i'm glad were on a witch hunt now...

by the way, proof?

#155
ld1449

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LinksOcarina wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

one down....one to go


i'm glad were on a witch hunt now...

by the way, proof?


Jessica Merizian. Just listen to the EC podcast interview.

"I'm here with EXEC PRODUCER Casey hudson and LW Mac Walters."=]

#156
elitehunter34

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ld1449 wrote...
I disagree. Your reputation is who you are what you do and how you work. If they're directly responsible for this ending then they should not get out of this unschathed because it shows they were arrogant enough to think they could do it on their own. Stupid enough to not be able to, and so careless they didn't even bother running it by their co workers, their fellow writers, their producers or damn near anyone who had their job invested in this game. I'm not going to feel sorry for them when their actions have contributed to one of the single worse literary devices ever seen in the last decade, and will directly contribute to the reputation of their company and the people who worked with them. Because make no mistake, everyone in that team is on the line of fire at this point. That's why they've never come out and flat out said its not true. They just deleted the post and said Weekes didn't write it.

Not just for the story they ruined but for all the grief they've given the people they worked with, they deserve every inch of vitriol and anger thrown at them. And their reputation should rightly suffer as well.

If a drug dealing gangster helps an old lady across the street does that mean he shouldn't be arrested? No.

Just because Mac wrote a character or two well does that mean the sheer carelessness and lack of consideration he showed his peers and the fanbase be dismissed? No.

Just because you did something good doesn't make up for a **** up down the road.

So they deserve it as far as I'm concerned.

Well, I didn't say there should be no consequences.  In my opinion if they are personally responsible for the ending and didn't put it through peer review they should be fired.  I don't think their lives should be ruined though, they're still just people.  I agree though, they deserve some criticism if they are responsible.  The series is essentially ruined for me because of the endings.

#157
LinksOcarina

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ld1449 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

one down....one to go


i'm glad were on a witch hunt now...

by the way, proof?


Jessica Merizian. Just listen to the EC podcast interview.

"I'm here with EXEC PRODUCER Casey hudson and LW Mac Walters."=]


So a project director to executive producer is a notch on the belt?

#158
elitehunter34

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LinksOcarina wrote...
The problem is there is no way to confirm it was Weekes who said that, unless if he comes out and says it was him. You say yourself it is not difinitive proof, and the problem with rumors is that they are not a good source of truth, because they tend to tell us what we already believe. 

As for the job posting, new blood is always needed. You can't have the same guys write everything; if that happens you get real stagnation which is even more dangerous. My guess is, they are looking for a new lead writer for a new project down the line.

Weekes is infact the Penny Arcade forum user Takyris.  That much isn't debatable.  The body of text attributed to him is debatable because it was deleted.  I personally find it plausable that he wrote it.  It's a little more than a rumor if you ask me.

#159
ld1449

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LinksOcarina wrote...

ld1449 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

one down....one to go


i'm glad were on a witch hunt now...

by the way, proof?


Jessica Merizian. Just listen to the EC podcast interview.

"I'm here with EXEC PRODUCER Casey hudson and LW Mac Walters."=]


So a project director to executive producer is a notch on the belt?

Just clarifying what he was referring to. Regardless it is a demotion. To be the one calling the shots to the one that coordinates where the money goes

#160
Shaigunjoe

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TMA LIVE wrote...

I mean, do people just prefer the ME series being a "Don't pollute" message?


Hahaha, yea, this is what baffles me.  I can only imagine how ticked off people would really have been if this actually happened.

The creator/creation relationship is everywhere in ME. From parent/child, organic/machine, and organic/biological weapon.  I cannot think of anywhere in the series where the merits of conservation vs. consumption are really touched on.  All you do is strip mine planets and purchase an unlimited supply of fuel.  I can see why the writers would look at the DE thing and think, yea, that doesn't really fit the story.

In addition to that, with the Reapers actually preventing technological progress, they stay true to their Lovecraft roots.  Lovecraft wasn't afraid of fossil fuels, he was afraid of technology induced chaos.

#161
TMA LIVE

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LinksOcarina wrote...

ld1449 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

one down....one to go


i'm glad were on a witch hunt now...

by the way, proof?


Jessica Merizian. Just listen to the EC podcast interview.

"I'm here with EXEC PRODUCER Casey hudson and LW Mac Walters."=]


So a project director to executive producer is a notch on the belt?


Actually, Casey has always been Exec Producer since ME1.

#162
ZackG312

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thefallen2far wrote...

Shepard Cmdr wrote...

Well Mac did write Garrus in ME1 and Garrus is an amazing character. I just think the main problem is the ego of everyone at bioware to not admit that they screwed up royally and just fix the ending. Also to give us some real side missions, not fetch quests.


I thought he was a tool in Mass Effect 1. It wasn't until 2 that he got interesting.


I agree I didnt like Garrus in Me1 but he got better in ME2

#163
LinksOcarina

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ld1449 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

ld1449 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

one down....one to go


i'm glad were on a witch hunt now...

by the way, proof?


Jessica Merizian. Just listen to the EC podcast interview.

"I'm here with EXEC PRODUCER Casey hudson and LW Mac Walters."=]


So a project director to executive producer is a notch on the belt?

Just clarifying what he was referring to. Regardless it is a demotion. To be the one calling the shots to the one that coordinates where the money goes


that is a demotion? Trading calling the shots to coordinating the money?

my goodness I wish I had one of those jobs, both of them are painful because of the flak you get, but my goodness are they important. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 23 juillet 2012 - 02:54 .


#164
TMA LIVE

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Like example. 2010.



He's always been the Executive Producer of the ME series.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 23 juillet 2012 - 02:54 .


#165
ld1449

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TMA LIVE wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

ld1449 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

one down....one to go


i'm glad were on a witch hunt now...

by the way, proof?


Jessica Merizian. Just listen to the EC podcast interview.

"I'm here with EXEC PRODUCER Casey hudson and LW Mac Walters."=]


So a project director to executive producer is a notch on the belt?


Actually, Casey has always been Exec Producer since ME1.


He's always been referred to as the director in his interviews, and the producer was Mike Gamble as far as I know.

#166
TMA LIVE

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ld1449 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

ld1449 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

one down....one to go


i'm glad were on a witch hunt now...

by the way, proof?


Jessica Merizian. Just listen to the EC podcast interview.

"I'm here with EXEC PRODUCER Casey hudson and LW Mac Walters."=]


So a project director to executive producer is a notch on the belt?


Actually, Casey has always been Exec Producer since ME1.


He's always been referred to as the director in his interviews, and the producer was Mike Gamble as far as I know.


He's both. Mike is just the Producer. Not Executive Producer.

#167
ld1449

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TMA LIVE wrote...


He's both. Mike is just the Producer. Not Executive Producer.


Ahh ok. Still like I said in nearly all the interviews throughout the years, they've always referred to him as project director, never exec producer. And now its coming from one of his own people so alot of people found it very odd.

#168
3DandBeyond

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ld1449 wrote...

Mac has no writing experience outside Bioware from what I can tell. He worked on Jade Empire, ME1 ME2 and ME3, with the three previous roles having only minor pieces on his plate. His first "BIG PIECE" from what I can find was the arrival DLC of ME2, arguably the worst received DLC of the second installment. He has no published works to his name, no credentials that I can find, and nothing to really showcase to anyone that says "Damn he did THAT"

At least not while they're saying it in a good way.

Drew DID have the collectors tie in with the plot of ME in one of his novels that covered the events between ME1 and ME2 with Kahlee Sanders as the protagonist again helping an autistic child with Biotic ability in Grissom Academy.

Drew may have had an ending on a similar framework as Mac, but that's where the similarities end. His Dark Energy ending fit with the lore in game, tied all the games together, had alot more foreshadowing, alot more plot and logic behind it than just space magic. The only real stretch of the imagination was humans having THAT much genetic diversity but that small bit needing suspension of disbelief is a hell of a lot better than nearly 60% of the EXTENDED endings requiring it.


Well, that explains the lack of real choice in the Arrival-why 300k Batarians must die no matter what.  If he wrote Arrival and worked on ME3's ending, I would suggest someone with such a dim view of people and morality might need to not work on games with stories in them.

On ME3 launch day it was also Walters who happily stated there'd be no post ending ME3 DLC because the galaxy was a wasteland. 

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 23 juillet 2012 - 03:11 .


#169
TMA LIVE

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ld1449 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...


He's both. Mike is just the Producer. Not Executive Producer.


Ahh ok. Still like I said in nearly all the interviews throughout the years, they've always referred to him as project director, never exec producer. And now its coming from one of his own people so alot of people found it very odd.


Even in Bioware Pulse he's been called Exe. He's rarely called Project Direct. Even in the interview I posted.

#170
ld1449

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3DandBeyond wrote...

ld1449 wrote...

Mac has no writing experience outside Bioware from what I can tell. He worked on Jade Empire, ME1 ME2 and ME3, with the three previous roles having only minor pieces on his plate. His first "BIG PIECE" from what I can find was the arrival DLC of ME2, arguably the worst received DLC of the second installment. He has no published works to his name, no credentials that I can find, and nothing to really showcase to anyone that says "Damn he did THAT"

At least not while they're saying it in a good way.

Drew DID have the collectors tie in with the plot of ME in one of his novels that covered the events between ME1 and ME2 with Kahlee Sanders as the protagonist again helping an autistic child with Biotic ability in Grissom Academy.

Drew may have had an ending on a similar framework as Mac, but that's where the similarities end. His Dark Energy ending fit with the lore in game, tied all the games together, had alot more foreshadowing, alot more plot and logic behind it than just space magic. The only real stretch of the imagination was humans having THAT much genetic diversity but that small bit needing suspension of disbelief is a hell of a lot better than nearly 60% of the EXTENDED endings requiring it.


Well, that explains the lack of real choice in the Arrival-why 300k Batarians must die no matter what.  If he wrote Arrival and worked on ME3's ending, I would suggest someone with such a dim view of people and morality might need to not work on games with stories in them.

On ME3 launch day it was also Walters who happily stated there'd be no post ending ME3 DLC because the galaxy was a wasteland. 


I never have seen that quote of his.:blush:

#171
Fayfel

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Drew? Mac? Chris L'Etoile was far and away the best writer involved in the ME series. Google Stormwaltz and you'll learn a thing or two.

#172
XqctaX

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elitehunter34 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...
The problem is there is no way to confirm it was Weekes who said that, unless if he comes out and says it was him. You say yourself it is not difinitive proof, and the problem with rumors is that they are not a good source of truth, because they tend to tell us what we already believe. 

As for the job posting, new blood is always needed. You can't have the same guys write everything; if that happens you get real stagnation which is even more dangerous. My guess is, they are looking for a new lead writer for a new project down the line.

Weekes is infact the Penny Arcade forum user Takyris.  That much isn't debatable.  The body of text attributed to him is debatable because it was deleted.  I personally find it plausable that he wrote it.  It's a little more than a rumor if you ask me.

im not going to write names on here becouse that would not do anyone any good
but those like me that are on the forums that read about what the team bioware posts here and on twitter,
and that like myself accually goes and check if the sources people provide are accurate..

well then
its a known fact that mac and casey were the only two people
working on the ending prior to EC, period

why am i claiming this. well becouse frikkin biowarestaff said so on more than one occation in more than one place that they and they only have access to.

Modifié par XqctaX, 23 juillet 2012 - 03:25 .


#173
3DandBeyond

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ld1449 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

ld1449 wrote...

Mac has no writing experience outside Bioware from what I can tell. He worked on Jade Empire, ME1 ME2 and ME3, with the three previous roles having only minor pieces on his plate. His first "BIG PIECE" from what I can find was the arrival DLC of ME2, arguably the worst received DLC of the second installment. He has no published works to his name, no credentials that I can find, and nothing to really showcase to anyone that says "Damn he did THAT"

At least not while they're saying it in a good way.

Drew DID have the collectors tie in with the plot of ME in one of his novels that covered the events between ME1 and ME2 with Kahlee Sanders as the protagonist again helping an autistic child with Biotic ability in Grissom Academy.

Drew may have had an ending on a similar framework as Mac, but that's where the similarities end. His Dark Energy ending fit with the lore in game, tied all the games together, had alot more foreshadowing, alot more plot and logic behind it than just space magic. The only real stretch of the imagination was humans having THAT much genetic diversity but that small bit needing suspension of disbelief is a hell of a lot better than nearly 60% of the EXTENDED endings requiring it.


Well, that explains the lack of real choice in the Arrival-why 300k Batarians must die no matter what.  If he wrote Arrival and worked on ME3's ending, I would suggest someone with such a dim view of people and morality might need to not work on games with stories in them.

On ME3 launch day it was also Walters who happily stated there'd be no post ending ME3 DLC because the galaxy was a wasteland. 


I never have seen that quote of his.:blush:


http://www.youtube.c...m3Vnt5zxI#t=77s

This is a video of him saying it.  Sorry the video is not from release day but is before that discussing its launch.  The appropriate part starts at about 1:30.

As a sidenote once players started discussing just how bad this all was because the arrival did indicate the galaxy was doomed and there's a codex on what happens with just a ruptured relay, they used twitter to retcon it.  In the podcast for the EC (the announcement) and in other places they act shocked that anyone would think the galaxy is a dark doomed place after the original endings. 

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 23 juillet 2012 - 03:40 .


#174
devSin

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Amakiir wrote...

Chris L'Etoile was far and away the best writer involved in the ME series.

Chris and Luke.

I smell talent on John, though. I'm thinking he's lead writer material.

#175
felipejiraya

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For real, I didn't need any ulterior reason (and to be honest both dark energy and singularity are lame reasons) to destroy the Reapers.

They're destroying my galaxy so I should have the chance to destroy them back and succeed on it.