255 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

first off I was referring to Walters, second it is not a wit hunt but simple logic.....they managed to rip my all time favorite series in 10 minutes through one of the worst train wrecks I have ever seen....worse they were completely unapologetic and borderline insulting about it and even if you were not to think the last part quite simply if they go the franchise is back in the hands of people who actually freaking care about it and the fans.

And you know what? My ancestors had a saying "promoveatur ut amoveatur" you don't even have to fire them, promote them if you want give them a goddamn medal as long as they are NOT influencing the next titles.

[The Angry One]

LinksOcarina wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Are you saying that because you believe it? Or just because you'd prefer anything another then the ending you didn't like, even if it was of the same bad quality?

There's such a thing as "Neither ending is good".

I've already told you what I prefer.
I am stating that the Reapers preserving the Milky Way from dark energy badness makes perfect sense if they're from the Milky Way.

Ok then, so why would they create a final solution to something when they typically harvest races every 50,000 years? That to me is a leap in logic of the reapers motivations, assuming that is what they planned for the dark energy plot, and that they did live in the Milky Way. 

Because they wanted a permanent solution.
The cycle was only ever a temporary means to stave off annihilation while they found a real solution, which humans would give.

[Klijpope]

The Dark Energy plot line was rejected for a good reason - it was silly, and had nothing to do with the themes from ME1.

And by tone of the interviews I've read about it, it does not sound like it was DK's preferred choice, just something put in ME2 as a hook that could be expanded upon.

On its basic premise a dark energy ending is a lot more problematic than a singularity ending - the problem with the ending is in its execution, not its underlying themes.

Ending haters are just clutching at straws when they elevate the Dark Energy plot to anything more than an idea rejected for sound reasons.

[The Angry One]

Klijpope wrote...

The Dark Energy plot line was rejected for a good reason - it was silly, and had nothing to do with the themes from ME1.

Therefore they replaced it with a plot that was silly and had nothing to do with the themes of ME1 or ME2.

Makes sense.

[Shaigunjoe]

The Angry One wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

The Dark Energy plot line was rejected for a good reason - it was silly, and had nothing to do with the themes from ME1.

Therefore they replaced it with a plot that was silly and had nothing to do with the themes of ME1 or ME2.

Makes sense.

I have no idea what you are saying, the creator/creation relationship is all over the first two games.

[The Angry One]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

I have no idea what you are saying, the creator/creation relationship is all over the first two games.

As B plots that are each confined and resolved in their own way.
No overarching plot. No foreshadowing, and certainly no hint that this is some major unresolvable problem since, you know, you resolve them.

I mean by this logic I could claim that the Reaper plot should somehow revolve around interstellar piracy, seeing how many of those we dealt with in ME1 and ME2.

Modifié par The Angry One, 23 juillet 2012 - 12:04 .

[Shaigunjoe]

The Angry One wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

I have no idea what you are saying, the creator/creation relationship is all over the first two games.

As B plots that are each confined and resolved in their own way.
No overarching plot. No foreshadowing, and certainly no hint that this is some major unresolvable problem since, you know, you resolve them.

I mean by this logic I could claim that the Reaper plot should somehow revolve around interstellar piracy, seeing how many of those we dealt with in ME1 and ME2.

I wouldn't call it a b plot.  In ME1 with the whole ban on AI and the geth army being central to the plot.  In ME2, I'm not even sure what the main narrative in that has to say as a theme in general, but the collectors were the creation of the reapers, which was an important development in the plot.  As far as the 'b' plots of ME2, I felt that they were stronger than the main narrative anyway, and where the saving grace of the game.

Yes, you resolve them, you resolve them in ME3.  Every major plot point development prior to the catalyst is a resolution of one of creator/creation theme(moridin/genophage, krogan/can't create,quarian/geth,father/miranda)  Why would they pull a non-sequiter, I feel like the steady cadence of creator/creation resolution lead up to the final confrontation, where you deal with someone who also felt it resolved this issue.

Also, the reapers fit snuggly into the lovecraft horror theme if they are preventing the growth of technology instead of preventing galaxy environment breakdown. 

If you prefer the the rumored dark energy story, fine, but I just can't see how someone would say it was a better fit for the series becuase it was forshadowed in one quest and then forgotten about, and nothing else in the game discussed the imporatnce of taking care of the environment.

[The Angry One]

Because the spacebaby plot is not "creators vs. created" it's "synthetics will kill you all OMG never ending conflict".
Which is contradicted multiple times by the series.

It would fit the themes if the Catalyst could be actually made to consider the events of the series. Instead, it declares something to be so and Shepard can't argue otherwise.

Modifié par The Angry One, 23 juillet 2012 - 01:10 .

[F4H bandicoot]

Reapers need no reason to reap.

[bleetman]

The thing about the geth is, by the time ME2 rolled around whoever was responsible for writing them had apparently decided to backpedal considerably. In ME1, they were mostly unknown death robots in space who previously stayed in their territory but killed anyone who ever entered, and have now thrown their lot in with the Reapers. Since ME2, they been presented as far more misunderstood but amicable. The 'kill everyone who comes their way' bits got swept under the rug. We were told of the heretic/geth division in great detail. We're given different perspectives on the morning war.

As much as I loved that this happened, if the geth had stuck with how they were in ME1, they'd be a great example of what Star Brat was on about. But they didn't, and they're not.

Modifié par bleetman, 23 juillet 2012 - 01:19 .

[Femlob]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Reapers need no reason to reap.

They see me reapin' - they hatin'

[3DandBeyond]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

The Dark Energy plot line was rejected for a good reason - it was silly, and had nothing to do with the themes from ME1.

Therefore they replaced it with a plot that was silly and had nothing to do with the themes of ME1 or ME2.

Makes sense.

I have no idea what you are saying, the creator/creation relationship is all over the first two games.

The relationship exists and is always shown to be the creator attempting the destruction of the created not the other way around. 

ME3 abandoned so much from ME1 alone that it isn't funny.  Couple that with whatwas ignored in ME2 and even ME3 itself with this so-called ending and the destruction of a franchise is complete.  The creators of ME destroyed the created.

In fact, the most obvious example of created/creator conflict was incited by the reapers in ME1.  In ME2, Legion says the heretics (those geth helping Saren and Sovereign) were contacted by the reapers and they were changed.  They came out from behind the Perseus Veil and began attacking organics because as Legion says, Sovereign wanted them to kill organics.  Yes, that sounds exactly like what the kid talks about wanting to have happen.

And then in ME3, this most obvious example of a conflict between synthetics and organics is worked out, even if all geth are destroyed early on.  That's still a solution that happens and is totally ignored at the end.

The simple unvarnished truth is the kid is full of BS.  People can work out conflict, sometimes for good and sometimes not, but it's their right to mess it up or make it all good, not some self-proclaimed, self-deluded AI "god".  And his other issue is the idea of chaos and order.  Only people with a disorder think that order must be attained at all time.  Growth of character and true evolution (not some demented idea that eventually we will all become part synthetic in order to be perfect) involves a bit of chaos and creates a growth in culture and character. 

Everything the kid says goes totally contrary to events in ME1 and 2.  At least Dark Energy had some foreshadowing. 

[Shaigunjoe]

The Angry One wrote...

Because the spacebaby plot is not "creators vs. created" it's "synthetics will kill you all OMG never ending conflict".
Which is contradicted multiple times by the series.

It would fit the themes if the Catalyst could be actually made to consider the events of the series. Instead, it declares something to be so and Shepard can't argue otherwise.

"synthetics will kill you all OMG never ending conflict"  That sounds like creators vs created to me.  It just thinks created will always win.

I just don't think the catalyst would care about the immediate resolutions all that much.  It is very tralfamadorian, where as Shep is all Billy PIlgrim.

I really don't think the Catalyst is all that smart anyway, it also seems to be following  a program that can be altered with the crucible, nothing it says or does makes me think it is capable of reason.

[F4H bandicoot]

The Reapers were ruined anyway, they don't need a purpose, their doesn't need to be some recurring conflict for them to reap, creator vs created seems like a cop out, something they pulled out at the end to try and make the reapers more human and understandable, exactly what they shouldn't have been.
What happened to the "you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding"

[3DandBeyond]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

I wouldn't call it a b plot.  In ME1 with the whole ban on AI and the geth army being central to the plot.  In ME2, I'm not even sure what the main narrative in that has to say as a theme in general, but the collectors were the creation of the reapers, which was an important development in the plot.  As far as the 'b' plots of ME2, I felt that they were stronger than the main narrative anyway, and where the saving grace of the game.

Yes, you resolve them, you resolve them in ME3.  Every major plot point development prior to the catalyst is a resolution of one of creator/creation theme(moridin/genophage, krogan/can't create,quarian/geth,father/miranda)  Why would they pull a non-sequiter, I feel like the steady cadence of creator/creation resolution lead up to the final confrontation, where you deal with someone who also felt it resolved this issue.

Also, the reapers fit snuggly into the lovecraft horror theme if they are preventing the growth of technology instead of preventing galaxy environment breakdown. 

If you prefer the the rumored dark energy story, fine, but I just can't see how someone would say it was a better fit for the series becuase it was forshadowed in one quest and then forgotten about, and nothing else in the game discussed the imporatnce of taking care of the environment.

The goal of 3 games prior to the ending: Unite people to destroy the reapers
The goal of the ending:  Agree with the kid and solve his problem, fulfill his purpose

The fact is Shepard in solving all of those issues involving created/creator is saying they are not a problem because there are solutions.  Shepard's solution speaks to what people (or one person) can accomplish.  The kid's speaks of the futility of people doing anything.  This is contrary to the main points of the story.

The idea that banning the development of any AI would solve the problem is shattered by what many do and in solving problems that came up Shepard proved that people actually needed to open their eyes and realize that AIs would exist and could exist peacefully alongside organics.  The Krogan created/creator situation is also solved. 

But you might as well just throw every conflict into the mix because you can't sit there and say one possibly galaxy altering conflict is more important than the next.  It's just that in solving these other big problems Shepard had shown that the galaxy could mature and confront problems rather than ignoring them.  So, what did the writers do at the end?  They made Shepard ignore his/her solutions to these problems. 

The created/creator conflict isn't even mostly about that at all.  Within 3 games the main over arching themes were of unity, diversity, and redemption and not created/creator conflict at all.  That conflict was merely a backdrop against which the tales of how people could find redemption and grow independent of this shadow that had directed all their lives for maybe 37 million years.  Sovereign said this that the galaxy develops along a path the reapers have made.  The kid does not want people to be allowed to get off that path.  But, everything Shepard does is leading to self-determination.  EDI is unshackeled.  Shepard wants to do that for the galaxy.  The kid does not want that to happen.

The kid does not think he has solved the issue.  He thinks he has mitigated it over the years, but with Shepard he has what he sees as his final solution-that will solve it forever.  But, this was never a problem that rose to some extent as to need such a solution.  That's the whole issue with all of this.

And Dark Energy isn't just in one story-it's everywhere in the game.  It's actually supposedly used in the crucible.  It's what eezo helps to create.  It's part of biotics and relays and creates mass effect fields.  It is really partly what mass effect was all about.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 23 juillet 2012 - 01:39 .

[Shaigunjoe]

3DandBeyond wrote...

The goal of 3 games prior to the ending: Unite people to destroy the reapers
The goal of the ending:  Agree with the kid and solve his problem, fulfill his purpose

The fact is Shepard in solving all of those issues involving created/creator is saying they are not a problem because there are solutions.  Shepard's solution speaks to what people (or one person) can accomplish.  The kid's speaks of the futility of people doing anything.  This is contrary to the main points of the story.

The idea that banning the development of any AI would solve the problem is shattered by what many do and in solving problems that came up Shepard proved that people actually needed to open their eyes and realize that AIs would exist and could exist peacefully alongside organics.  The Krogan created/creator situation is also solved. 

But you might as well just throw every conflict into the mix because you can't sit there and say one possibly galaxy altering conflict is more important than the next.  It's just that in solving these other big problems Shepard had shown that the galaxy could mature and confront problems rather than ignoring them.  So, what did the writers do at the end?  They made Shepard ignore his/her solutions to these problems. 

The created/creator conflict isn't even mostly about that at all.  Within 3 games the main over arching themes were of unity, diversity, and redemption and not created/creator conflict at all.  That conflict was merely a backdrop against which the tales of how people could find redemption and grow independent of this shadow that had directed all their lives for maybe 37 million years.  Sovereign said this that the galaxy develops along a path the reapers have made.  The kid does not want people to be allowed to get off that path.  But, everything Shepard does is leading to self-determination.  EDI is unshackeled.  Shepard wants to do that for the galaxy.  The kid does not want that to happen.

The kid does not think he has solved the issue.  He thinks he has mitigated it over the years, but with Shepard he has what he sees as his final solution-that will solve it forever.  But, this was never a problem that rose to some extent as to need such a solution.  That's the whole issue with all of this.

And Dark Energy isn't just in one story-it's everywhere in the game.  It's actually supposedly used in the crucible.  It's what eezo helps to create.  It's part of biotics and relays and creates mass effect fields.  It is really partly what mass effect was all about.

The only part of the game where diversity is important to the outcome is the suicide mission, where if you don't have a diverse squad alive you will have difficulty achieveing your goal.  You listed all the reasons yourself why creator/createe is at the center of the game then go on to say it isn't, really it just sounds like you are rambling.

The Krogan where uplifted, then they went on a rampage, that is a least one example of the created rebelling against the creators.  Then they got smacked down, much like how the reapers smack down organic life, buy limiting it's growth. Another example of created kicking ass is the reapers themselves.  It is no surprise that the catalyst thinks the created will always win.

I never said dark energy didn't exist, the very idea that eezo creates de is one of the biggest problems with the reapers created to stop DE buy leaving behind things that generate a lot of DE.  As I said before, it makes more sense for lovecraft horrors to prevent technological growth than environment destabilization.

[The Angry One]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

"synthetics will kill you all OMG never ending conflict"  That sounds like creators vs created to me.  It just thinks created will always win.

It's an idiotic interpretation of the theme, hence it doesn't follow the series.
It would be like saying "pirates exist, therefore pirates will one day loot and pillage all major worlds".

I just don't think the catalyst would care about the immediate resolutions all that much.  It is very tralfamadorian, where as Shep is all Billy PIlgrim.

The narrative fails to establish any connection with the Catalyst's views.

I really don't think the Catalyst is all that smart anyway, it also seems to be following  a program that can be altered with the crucible, nothing it says or does makes me think it is capable of reason.

Then the story is suddenly forcing us to agree with an idiot.

[Shaigunjoe]

The Angry One wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

"synthetics will kill you all OMG never ending conflict"  That sounds like creators vs created to me.  It just thinks created will always win.

It's an idiotic interpretation of the theme, hence it doesn't follow the series.
It would be like saying "pirates exist, therefore pirates will one day loot and pillage all major worlds".

I just don't think the catalyst would care about the immediate resolutions all that much.  It is very tralfamadorian, where as Shep is all Billy PIlgrim.

The narrative fails to establish any connection with the Catalyst's views.

I really don't think the Catalyst is all that smart anyway, it also seems to be following  a program that can be altered with the crucible, nothing it says or does makes me think it is capable of reason.

Then the story is suddenly forcing us to agree with an idiot.

I really do not get some of the points you are saying, the pirate analogy?  What?  I did not get much of a pirate theme from the game.  Maybe they could have done with the Zaeed, but they made his story more about revenge than piracy, and about the organization he created getting out of control of what his original intent was.   You seemed so wrapped up in defining the catalyst in organic terms, which it clearly is not.  It is obviously incapable of learning, the problem with machines is that they do exactly what you tell them to do (although I confess, when I write code, I will be quick to call the computer an idiot and blame everything on it).

The idea that the creations rebel is present in the series, yes the idea that this will always happen is wrong in the immediante sense, but we do not really know anything as far as the millions of years go. 

I also don't know about the point you were trying to make about the narrative never establish a connection with the catalyst views, all I was trying to say was that it thought everything will happen the same way every time, no point in changing it (up until the crucible attached), which makes it very Tralfamadorian, though I suppose Shep being Billy Pilgrim is a weak connection, as I mearly refering to s/he's perspective.

You don't have to agree with the star child, but those themes are still there, throughout the series, which was the point of this conversation wasn't it?  And this thread is filled with people pointing out creator/createe points in the series,  definitly more points than environmental conservation presence in the series.

Modifié par Shaigunjoe, 23 juillet 2012 - 02:59 .

[3DandBeyond]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

The only part of the game where diversity is important to the outcome is the suicide mission, where if you don't have a diverse squad alive you will have difficulty achieveing your goal.  You listed all the reasons yourself why creator/createe is at the center of the game then go on to say it isn't, really it just sounds like you are rambling.

The Krogan where uplifted, then they went on a rampage, that is a least one example of the created rebelling against the creators.  Then they got smacked down, much like how the reapers smack down organic life, buy limiting it's growth. Another example of created kicking ass is the reapers themselves.  It is no surprise that the catalyst thinks the created will always win.

I never said dark energy didn't exist, the very idea that eezo creates de is one of the biggest problems with the reapers created to stop DE buy leaving behind things that generate a lot of DE.  As I said before, it makes more sense for lovecraft horrors to prevent technological growth than environment destabilization.

Nice characterization.  I said that the ending ignores the ability to overcome any such conflict, thereby rendering what the star kid says to meaningless garbage.  The "themes" of a created/creator conflict are minor because they never threaten the destruction of all advanced organic life within the galaxy.  They are in fact targeted conflicts.  The Krogan specifically don't like those that neutered them, but that doesn't mean they want to just kill everyone.  The kid sees the conflict as the created going after the creator, specifically synthetics targeting organics (which ignores the Krogan conflict because the kid does not care about organic on organic conflict) as being the focus of all problems for organics.  But it isn't.  In fact it is very specific synthetics (reapers) that are the source of conflict because they've been sent by the kid for just that purpose.  So his goal is to solve the problem he has created.

And the Krogan were uplifted and used for their strenght and violent tendencies, and then because they were breeding and were becoming a threat, genocide was committed against them (controlling a race's breeding is a form of genocide).  No one tried to help their creations, they neutered them.  The Krogan were not just fighting against their creators-they had the audacity to breed and had no idea what to do after being uplifted-they got bored and bred and fought because of population issues.  So, by all means choose synthesis-no problem uplifting any race before, right?  No problem with immortal people breeding right?

The more coherent and relevant (to the kid's point) conflict is the geth/quarian.  The heretics were basically created by the reapers.  Legion says this.  The reapers came to them and gave them code and they left the other geth to fight and kill organics.  The geth as a whole were of course created by the quarians.  The quarians made them "limited" AIs and the geth learned and became fully sentient.  The quarians started "killing" them.  So, yeah they fought and once the quarians had left, the geth retreated.  But it was the creators that had been destroying the created.  And this big example of what the kid says is worked out, it doesn't need reapers to fix it.

I never said that diversity was THE theme.  It is a part of the theme.  The theme is one of unity (not one twisted idea of conflict and not chaos and order), and it is strength through diversity and unity and redemption.  This is a running theme that is repeatedly promoted and authentic throughout the 3 games.  Contrast that with the idea of synthetics and organics fighting that is repeatedly disputed and even quashed everywhere it exists in all 3 games.

So, unity, diversity, redemption are ignored at the end and a synthetic/organic conflict is validated and the core issue at the end. 

The reapers don't prevent tech growth, they make it develop along a certain specified path.  In fact, if you choose 2 out of 3 of the kid's choices all tech will continue to develop along the reapers' specified path.  This is so much garbage.


The created/creator thing would only be the main theme if it continued to be an unsolved problem.  It doesn't.  It isn't even shown to be the worst problem, ever.  Shepard always puts out those fires.  And others have learned to do this too.  The theme of the story is how to solve the problem that does exist:  the reapers.  If they aren't destroyed, that has not been solved and the goal is not met.

Dark Energy is more pervasive than is the idea that any conflict between organics and synthetics within this galaxy can't be worked out naturally between the people of the galaxy so the kid and his solutions are needed.  The crucible itself was supposed to be a Dark Energy device not some plug in power supply for Mr. Magic.

[Shaigunjoe]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

The only part of the game where diversity is important to the outcome is the suicide mission, where if you don't have a diverse squad alive you will have difficulty achieveing your goal.  You listed all the reasons yourself why creator/createe is at the center of the game then go on to say it isn't, really it just sounds like you are rambling.

The Krogan where uplifted, then they went on a rampage, that is a least one example of the created rebelling against the creators.  Then they got smacked down, much like how the reapers smack down organic life, buy limiting it's growth. Another example of created kicking ass is the reapers themselves.  It is no surprise that the catalyst thinks the created will always win.

I never said dark energy didn't exist, the very idea that eezo creates de is one of the biggest problems with the reapers created to stop DE buy leaving behind things that generate a lot of DE.  As I said before, it makes more sense for lovecraft horrors to prevent technological growth than environment destabilization.

Nice characterization.  I said that the ending ignores the ability to overcome any such conflict, thereby rendering what the star kid says to meaningless garbage.  The "themes" of a created/creator conflict are minor because they never threaten the destruction of all advanced organic life within the galaxy.  They are in fact targeted conflicts.  The Krogan specifically don't like those that neutered them, but that doesn't mean they want to just kill everyone.  The kid sees the conflict as the created going after the creator, specifically synthetics targeting organics (which ignores the Krogan conflict because the kid does not care about organic on organic conflict) as being the focus of all problems for organics.  But it isn't.  In fact it is very specific synthetics (reapers) that are the source of conflict because they've been sent by the kid for just that purpose.  So his goal is to solve the problem he has created.

And the Krogan were uplifted and used for their strenght and violent tendencies, and then because they were breeding and were becoming a threat, genocide was committed against them (controlling a race's breeding is a form of genocide).  No one tried to help their creations, they neutered them.  The Krogan were not just fighting against their creators-they had the audacity to breed and had no idea what to do after being uplifted-they got bored and bred and fought because of population issues.  So, by all means choose synthesis-no problem uplifting any race before, right?  No problem with immortal people breeding right?

The more coherent and relevant (to the kid's point) conflict is the geth/quarian.  The heretics were basically created by the reapers.  Legion says this.  The reapers came to them and gave them code and they left the other geth to fight and kill organics.  The geth as a whole were of course created by the quarians.  The quarians made them "limited" AIs and the geth learned and became fully sentient.  The quarians started "killing" them.  So, yeah they fought and once the quarians had left, the geth retreated.  But it was the creators that had been destroying the created.  And this big example of what the kid says is worked out, it doesn't need reapers to fix it.

I never said that diversity was THE theme.  It is a part of the theme.  The theme is one of unity (not one twisted idea of conflict and not chaos and order), and it is strength through diversity and unity and redemption.  This is a running theme that is repeatedly promoted and authentic throughout the 3 games.  Contrast that with the idea of synthetics and organics fighting that is repeatedly disputed and even quashed everywhere it exists in all 3 games.

So, unity, diversity, redemption are ignored at the end and a synthetic/organic conflict is validated and the core issue at the end. 

The reapers don't prevent tech growth, they make it develop along a certain specified path.  In fact, if you choose 2 out of 3 of the kid's choices all tech will continue to develop along the reapers' specified path.  This is so much garbage.


The created/creator thing would only be the main theme if it continued to be an unsolved problem.  It doesn't.  It isn't even shown to be the worst problem, ever.  Shepard always puts out those fires.  And others have learned to do this too.  The theme of the story is how to solve the problem that does exist:  the reapers.  If they aren't destroyed, that has not been solved and the goal is not met.

Dark Energy is more pervasive than is the idea that any conflict between organics and synthetics within this galaxy can't be worked out naturally between the people of the galaxy so the kid and his solutions are needed.  The crucible itself was supposed to be a Dark Energy device not some plug in power supply for Mr. Magic.

Thanks for listing more points why creator/createe is central to the ME universe.  If you do not agree with the themes played out that is completely different than saying it isn't present in the previous two games.  I still do not see why DE would be better than this, which is what this conversation is all about. All you do is list instances of creator/createe, and then say at the end DE was there.   Yes, DE was there, but this DE plot that is being talked about basically uses DE as an analogy for fossil fuels, how many times has enviornment destabilization been brought up in the ME games?  In addition, doesn't the whole humans are the only special species kind of shoehorn the diversity thing?

Also, the reapers as lovecraft horrors make it no surprise for the whole order/chaos thing.

Modifié par Shaigunjoe, 23 juillet 2012 - 03:21 .

[3DandBeyond]

Shaigunjoe wrote...



I really do not get some of the points you are saying, the pirate analogy?  What?  I did not get much of a pirate theme from the game.  Maybe they could have done with the Zaeed, but they made his story more about revenge than piracy, and about the organization he created getting out of control of what his original intent was.   You seemed so wrapped up in defining the catalyst in organic terms, which it clearly is not.  It is obviously incapable of learning, the problem with machines is that they do exactly what you tell them to do (although I confess, when I write code, I will be quick to call the computer an idiot and blame everything on it).

The idea that the creations rebel is present in the series, yes the idea that this will always happen is wrong in the immediante sense, but we do not really know anything as far as the millions of years go. 

I also don't know about the point you were trying to make about the narrative never establish a connection with the catalyst views, all I was trying to say was that it thought everything will happen the same way every time, no point in changing it (up until the crucible attached), which makes it very Tralfamadorian, though I suppose Shep being Billy Pilgrim is a weak connection, as I mearly refering to s/he's perspective.

You don't have to agree with the star child, but those themes are still there, throughout the series, which was the point of this conversation wasn't it?  And this thread is filled with people pointing out creator/createe points in the series,  definitly more points than environmental conservation presence in the series.

Uh I'm sorry what games were you playing?  The geth learned.  EDI learned.  The star kid himself in a way learned that his original ideas were not working when tasked with fulfilling his original purpose, so he came up with the reapers.  I don't think his creators said they wanted to become a reaper to meet the goal.  In doing that he also learned to be somewhat duplicitous.  He at least knows his creators did not like that.  He also shows the ability to deceive.  Indoctrination is perpetrated by reapers which he controls and he says he is and it deceives people.  TIM thinks he can control the reapers, but he can't because he's being controlled.  Saren thinks Sovereign will spare him and even all people if they "work with" the reapers but he's been indoctrinated.  Benezia thinks she's doing some good but had been indoctrinated.

The kid never suggests his reapers are getting out of control.  He does suggest his programming just changed.  He in fact may have learned that people are getting close to destroying him and his solution.  So, he adapts and tries to get Shepard on his side in order to maintain his own existence.  We have no independent knowledge that his solutions do anything other than help him continue to "live".

In fact, in synthesis the star kid even shows how important he thinks he is.  First off, he knows that certain things are inevitable.  So, he's psychic and not very good at it.  But he thinks he is.  He is tech.  He thinks people seek perfection through tech.  People want to be like him and he is perfect.  I don't think he was ever programmed to think this.  Furthermore, he thinks he knows the final conclusion of evolution will be the joining of synthetics and organics.  I doubt that his creators (who didn't want to be a reaper) programmed him to think this. 

He also indicates the reapers don't care or see war and confict when Shepard says the reapers are causing it.  He likens them to a mindless fire doing what it was meant to do.

Ok, then if he is the combined intelligence of the reapers and they have no care or concern for war and conflict, then why is he obsessed with it?  He clearly knows what he is doing and he knows what the reapers are doing.  He can see he is causing conflict and is not stopping it.  Yeah, crazy may be meant for organics, but he's crazy too.  And he's evil.  So what if we are ascribing organic terms to his behavior?  It is his behavior that matters, not whether he cares about what he's doing.  He knows what he's doing.  He's an AI and that means he can learn.

As far as what conflict will or will not always happen or has happened before.  That's all irrelevant.  The star kid may not think so, but anyone alive in this time would.  Shepard has.  Shepard said to the dying reaper on Rannoch that synthetics and organics need not always fight.  Living geth working with organics might make that be a reality.  Shepard also said you don't condemn a race to extinction based upon what might happen.  The only relevant point about what may have happened in the past and what could happen in the future is that it could help all people determine for themselves constructive ways to avoid it all.  They know someone somewhere will create an AI and they need to be able to discuss things and create ways to work out problems. 

That is why inserting the catalyst and making it inevitable that this conflict is unsolvable without the reapers or without one of the kid's solutions is so out of context with the rest of the story.  The kid offers solutions to a problem that doesn't exist except due to the kid creating it.  Without the reapers and the kid, there is no problem.

[The Angry One]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

I really do not get some of the points you are saying, the pirate analogy?  What?  I did not get much of a pirate theme from the game.  Maybe they could have done with the Zaeed, but they made his story more about revenge than piracy, and about the organization he created getting out of control of what his original intent was.   You seemed so wrapped up in defining the catalyst in organic terms, which it clearly is not.  It is obviously incapable of learning, the problem with machines is that they do exactly what you tell them to do (although I confess, when I write code, I will be quick to call the computer an idiot and blame everything on it).

I'm speaking of the Catalyst in narrative terms, and why it fails.
Pirates have been present throughout the series, and have been dealt with in various ways.

Just because they've been present doesn't mean they are or should be part of the overarching plot.

The idea that the creations rebel is present in the series, yes the idea that this will always happen is wrong in the immediante sense, but we do not really know anything as far as the millions of years go.

The overarching plot should not rely on an appeal to probability.

I also don't know about the point you were trying to make about the narrative never establish a connection with the catalyst views, all I was trying to say was that it thought everything will happen the same way every time, no point in changing it (up until the crucible attached), which makes it very Tralfamadorian, though I suppose Shep being Billy Pilgrim is a weak connection, as I mearly refering to s/he's perspective.

You don't have to agree with the star child, but those themes are still there, throughout the series, which was the point of this conversation wasn't it?  And this thread is filled with people pointing out creator/createe points in the series,  definitly more points than environmental conservation presence in the series.

I'm saying, no they aren't. B plots aren't themes. They're background. They flesh out the universe. But the plot is not about them.

[3DandBeyond]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Thanks for listing more points why creator/createe is central to the ME universe.  If you do not agree with the themes played out that is completely different than saying it isn't present in the previous two games.  I still do not see why DE would be better than this, which is what this conversation is all about. All you do is list instances of creator/createe, and then say at the end DE was there.   Yes, DE was there, but this DE plot that is being talked about basically uses DE as an analogy for fossil fuels, how many times has enviornment destabilization been brought up in the ME games?  In addition, doesn't the whole humans are the only special species kind of shoehorn the diversity thing?

Also, the reapers as lovecraft horrors make it no surprise for the whole order/chaos thing.

I'd rather have a real discussion.

It is not central because it is not a problem-anywhere it existed people solved it and I never said it wasn't present, but it was not a central goal.  As The Angry One points out, there's an over-arching theme and then other minor things that play out as backdrops.  Shepard needed to get people that did not agree with each other together to form a united front.  By your logic you could say that the real ending should be about humans vs. everyone else.  Or, it could be the Krogan take over the galaxy.  These form conflicts that must be overcome to meet the real antagonists and to achieve the goal.

The goal is not to stop conflict between synthetics and organics or creator and created or to promote order over chaos, it's to destroy the foe.

The only reason that Dark Energy was abandoned was because Drew was removed from the project.  That's why it stops being a part of the plot.  And nowhere is there ever a sense that a conflict between organics and synthetics is inevitable and unsolvable.  You must believe both in order to "buy" the kid's garbage.

TAO makes valid points about pirates and this relates to Batarians especially.  I really again have to wonder what games you've been playing.  The Blue Suns, the Eclipse, the Blood Pack and so on-it makes far more sense to send in someone to solve problems with them because these do recur and are only once every solved to some beneficial purpose when you complete Aria's mission in ME3.  Other than that they are always a problem.  And in ME1 there are repeated pirate missions-and in ME2 Thane ends up taking care of one person related to a pirate problem in ME1.

Simply repeating Lovecraft over and over again does not make it fit here as a theme we should all buy into.  Mass Effect is not Lovecraft though there are some (one) minor references to a Lovecraft story and the appearance and all of the reapers is designed to be Lovecraftian.

For the record, the ending is straight out of Deus ex (2000 video game), Babylon 5 (chaos and order which was taken from Lovecraftian themes, hence why it's used in ME3) and the Matrix.  I know the writers liked Lovecraft but with the ending it's obvious they never met a story they didn't like and didn't try to throw together to make an ending.  The only artistic vision not present in the ending is their own.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 23 juillet 2012 - 03:43 .

[Shaigunjoe]

3DandBeyond wrote...
*snip*

At this point I think you are just bouncing back and forth between the catalyst being really smart or not smart at all.  The creator/createe relationship is shown through different perspectives throughout the game, the catalyst is just another perspective, in which you have options on how to resolve it.  To me, this fits thematically just fine, the narrative, I would agree, does not come off as well, but I still do not know why the whole DE thing would be better.

The catalyst thinking it knows the results for all time is of thematic importance, as it represents the inability to comprimise or to learn. Which is an important aspect of the man v machine theme.

[Shaigunjoe]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Thanks for listing more points why creator/createe is central to the ME universe.  If you do not agree with the themes played out that is completely different than saying it isn't present in the previous two games.  I still do not see why DE would be better than this, which is what this conversation is all about. All you do is list instances of creator/createe, and then say at the end DE was there.   Yes, DE was there, but this DE plot that is being talked about basically uses DE as an analogy for fossil fuels, how many times has enviornment destabilization been brought up in the ME games?  In addition, doesn't the whole humans are the only special species kind of shoehorn the diversity thing?

Also, the reapers as lovecraft horrors make it no surprise for the whole order/chaos thing.

I'd rather have a real discussion.

It is not central because it is not a problem-anywhere it existed people solved it and I never said it wasn't present, but it was not a central goal.  As The Angry One points out, there's an over-arching theme and then other minor things that play out as backdrops.  Shepard needed to get people that did not agree with each other together to form a united front.  By your logic you could say that the real ending should be about humans vs. everyone else.  Or, it could be the Krogan take over the galaxy.  These form conflicts that must be overcome to meet the real antagonists and to achieve the goal.

The goal is not to stop conflict between synthetics and organics or creator and created or to promote order over chaos, it's to destroy the foe.

The only reason that Dark Energy was abandoned was because Drew was removed from the project.  That's why it stops being a part of the plot.  And nowhere is there ever a sense that a conflict between organics and synthetics is inevitable and unsolvable.  You must believe both in order to "buy" the kid's garbage.

TAO makes valid points about pirates and this relates to Batarians especially.  I really again have to wonder what games you've been playing.  The Blue Suns, the Eclipse, the Blood Pack and so on-it makes far more sense to send in someone to solve problems with them because these do recur and are only once every solved to some beneficial purpose when you complete Aria's mission in ME3.  Other than that they are always a problem.  And in ME1 there are repeated pirate missions-and in ME2 Thane ends up taking care of one person related to a pirate problem in ME1.

Simply repeating Lovecraft over and over again does not make it fit here as a theme we should all buy into.  Mass Effect is not Lovecraft though there are some (one) minor references to a Lovecraft story and the appearance and all of the reapers is designed to be Lovecraftian.

For the record, the ending is straight out of Deus ex (2000 video game), Babylon 5 (chaos and order which was taken from Lovecraftian themes, hence why it's used in ME3) and the Matrix.  I know the writers liked Lovecraft but with the ending it's obvious they never met a story they didn't like and didn't try to throw together to make an ending.  The only artistic vision not present in the ending is their own.

Well, I was hoping that saying Lovecraft would show the relation rather than having to explain it again.  Just read "The Call of Cthulu"'s opening paragraph to see what Lovecraft though about scientific advancement.  It makes it very relevent to the order/chaos, even more so if you learn about his personal life, and makes a perfect fit to the reapers meme generating mantra.

I wasn't arguing that pirates don't exist, but what about the themes of pirating?  I'm not even to sure what those are, but when I think of the themes of the ME series, pirating does not come to main.  Creator/Createe relationships do.