255 réponses à ce sujet

[F4H bandicoot]

Pirating has nothing to do with a theme, the guy used it as an example of something else....

[darkchief10]

this is the dark energy theory
Scientist a few years ago observed that the farther away one was from the universal core, the faster it was rushing away from it, this revoked an earlier theory that stated that the universe would eventually be unable to expand anymore and would start to collapse. THIS is what should be happening as the gravitational pull of the universe is stronger than the force of the big bang. Something is overcoming the universes own gravitational pull. a little later after making some calculations scientists found that the universe is also heavier than it should(Dark matter which i won't get into), which should have stopped expansion millions of years ago. This dark energy is slowly tearing the universe apart and in several trillion years the universe will freeze to death as galaxies and solar systems begin to rip each other apart due to lack of gravity the only thing that will survive are black holes, which will eventually supernova as they run out of fuel. It is believed that if dark energy can be observed and harnessed we might be able to break the laws of physics as it clearly able to do so if it is slowly tearing the universe apart.

My point is at least the dark energy ending was based in actual scientific theory.
thank you for hearing my rant out.

Modifié par darkchief10, 23 juillet 2012 - 04:12 .

[Shaigunjoe]

The Angry One wrote...


I'm speaking of the Catalyst in narrative terms, and why it fails.
Pirates have been present throughout the series, and have been dealt with in various ways.
Just because they've been present doesn't mean they are or should be part of the overarching plot.

Yea, I think this is the disconnect, I'm really talking about themes, sure pirate are there narrativly, but I don't get a pirate theme being present, which I do with creator/createe.

The overarching plot should not rely on an appeal to probability.

I have no problem with this, a lot of problems in the world stem from people thinking other people will always act the same and never change because their race/religion/politics dictate as such.

I'm saying, no they aren't. B plots aren't themes. They're background. They flesh out the universe. But the plot is not about them.

I would disagree with you here.  I think the themes prevalent in ME2 optional quests are part of the strongest in the series. The Moridin loyalty quest is probably my favorite quest in the game.  And I think they were integrated into the main questlines of ME3 fairly well, not perfect, but I would not say it was a betrayal of the series.

[LinksOcarina]

crimzontearz wrote...

first off I was referring to Walters, second it is not a wit hunt but simple logic.....they managed to rip my all time favorite series in 10 minutes through one of the worst train wrecks I have ever seen....worse they were completely unapologetic and borderline insulting about it and even if you were not to think the last part quite simply if they go the franchise is back in the hands of people who actually freaking care about it and the fans.

And you know what? My ancestors had a saying "promoveatur ut amoveatur" you don't even have to fire them, promote them if you want give them a goddamn medal as long as they are NOT influencing the next titles.

Thats not logic, thats confirmation bias with an axe to grind.

[LinksOcarina]

The Angry One wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Are you saying that because you believe it? Or just because you'd prefer anything another then the ending you didn't like, even if it was of the same bad quality?

There's such a thing as "Neither ending is good".

I've already told you what I prefer.
I am stating that the Reapers preserving the Milky Way from dark energy badness makes perfect sense if they're from the Milky Way.

Ok then, so why would they create a final solution to something when they typically harvest races every 50,000 years? That to me is a leap in logic of the reapers motivations, assuming that is what they planned for the dark energy plot, and that they did live in the Milky Way. 

Because they wanted a permanent solution.
The cycle was only ever a temporary means to stave off annihilation while they found a real solution, which humans would give.

I get that you favor the Dark Energy idea more than the Catalyst idea at this point. I just don't understand why, because on paper the Dark Energy sounds a lot worse than the Catalyst. 

Then again we shouldn't compare them because one was only a planned idea, and the other is the final idea. But thats me. 

[ZLurps]

darkchief10 wrote...

this is the dark energy theory
Scientist a few years ago observed that the farther away one was from the universal core, the faster it was rushing away from it, this revoked an earlier theory that stated that the universe would eventually be unable to expand anymore and would start to collapse. THIS is what should be happening as the gravitational pull of the universe is stronger than the force of the big bang. Something is overcoming the universes own gravitational pull. a little later after making some calculations scientists found that the universe is also heavier than it should(Dark matter which i won't get into), which should have stopped expansion millions of years ago. This dark energy is slowly tearing the universe apart and in several trillion years the universe will freeze to death as galaxies and solar systems begin to rip each other apart due to lack of gravity the only thing that will survive are black holes, which will eventually supernova as they run out of fuel. It is believed that if dark energy can be observed and harnessed we might be able to break the laws of physics as it clearly able to do so if it is slowly tearing the universe apart.

My point is at least the dark energy ending was based in actual scientific theory.
thank you for hearing my rant out.

Can't say I'm surprised, Drew IMO was really good on this sort of things. I wonder if he is going to write real sci-fi novel one of these days. I would buy it.

[3DandBeyond]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Well, I was hoping that saying Lovecraft would show the relation rather than having to explain it again.  Just read "The Call of Cthulu"'s opening paragraph to see what Lovecraft though about scientific advancement.  It makes it very relevent to the order/chaos, even more so if you learn about his personal life, and makes a perfect fit to the reapers meme generating mantra.

I wasn't arguing that pirates don't exist, but what about the themes of pirating?  I'm not even to sure what those are, but when I think of the themes of the ME series, pirating does not come to main.  Creator/Createe relationships do.

The point is that one shouldn't have to read Lovecraft to understand and enjoy ME.  It's not relevant.  It's fun to use as comparison, but I could compare ME to all kinds of things and enjoy that.  I could compare ME to a baseball game and say I'm happy it isn't one.  It's irrelevant.

ME should be self-contained and the ending should fit the theme and plot and goals of what came before.  There can be whole story lines related to other things within a story and they can be important but they are used to flesh out how the character views things and even in the case of ME they are used as means to an end.  Shepard doesn't solve any created/creator conflicts in order to show this is what the story is about.  Shepard does so in order to unite the galaxy.  It's to show that people that hate each other can end up coming together for a common purpose.  At the end uniting synthetics and organics means nothing because your goal becomes one of stopping synthetics from killing organics which you already did in this game.

I am a big fan of Lovecraft and have read a lot of his stuff.  It is irrelevant to this game.  What is relevant is what's in this game.


Shepard in fact proves that all conflict need not be inevitable and then never disagrees when the kid says it is.  Then Shepard works to make sure the inevitability of conflict is avoided.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 23 juillet 2012 - 04:30 .

[Shaigunjoe]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Well, I was hoping that saying Lovecraft would show the relation rather than having to explain it again.  Just read "The Call of Cthulu"'s opening paragraph to see what Lovecraft though about scientific advancement.  It makes it very relevent to the order/chaos, even more so if you learn about his personal life, and makes a perfect fit to the reapers meme generating mantra.

I wasn't arguing that pirates don't exist, but what about the themes of pirating?  I'm not even to sure what those are, but when I think of the themes of the ME series, pirating does not come to main.  Creator/Createe relationships do.

The point is that one shouldn't have to read Lovecraft to understand and enjoy ME.  It's not relevant.  It's fun to use as comparison, but I could compare ME to all kinds of things and enjoy that.  I could compare ME to a baseball game and say I'm happy it isn't one.  It's irrelevant.

ME should be self-contained and the ending should fit the theme and plot and goals of what came before.  There can be whole story lines related to other things within a story and they can be important but they are used to flesh out how the character views things and even in the case of ME they are used as means to an end.  Shepard doesn't solve any created/creator conflicts in order to show this is what the story is about.  Shepard does so in order to unite the galaxy.  It's to show that people that hate each other can end up coming together for a common purpose.  At the end uniting synthetics and organics means nothing because your goal becomes one of stopping synthetics from killing organics which you already did in this game.

I am a big fan of Lovecraft and have read a lot of his stuff.  It is irrelevant to this game.  What is relevant is what's in this game.


Shepard in fact proves that all conflict need not be inevitable and then never disagrees when the kid says it is.  Then Shepard works to make sure the inevitability of conflict is avoided.

I disagree, when discussing the themes it is very relevant what other people have said/done.  The themes for messages that the writers are trying to get out in the world, which exist along with messages of other writers, and can form rebuttles, or expansions, or a number of thing, the fact that the Reapers resembled lovecraft horrors should have been a tip of the hat as to, if you want to discuss themes, read lovecraft, it will help.  What you are starting to talk about is strictly narrative.

[crimzontearz]

[quote]LinksOcarina wrote...

[quote]crimzontearz wrote...

first off I was referring to Walters, second it is not a wit hunt but simple logic.....they managed to rip my all time favorite series in 10 minutes through one of the worst train wrecks I have ever seen....worse they were completely unapologetic and borderline insulting about it and even if you were not to think the last part quite simply if they go the franchise is back in the hands of people who actually freaking care about it and the fans.

And you know what? My ancestors had a saying "promoveatur ut amoveatur" you don't even have to fire them, promote them if you want give them a goddamn medal as long as they are NOT influencing the next titles.[/quote]

Thats not logic, thats confirmation bias with an axe to grind.

[/quote]
Mass effect 1 and 2 had great peer reviewed endings...fact

Mass Effect 3 had one of the worst endings ever (arguably)

said ending was concocted without peer review by Mac and Casey...


 
to this day their apology line is "we are sorry YOU found it subpar"


 
All this after losing a good part of the original writing team






 
 
 
 
 
I am just connecting the dots here

[/quote]

Modifié par crimzontearz, 23 juillet 2012 - 05:14 .

[3DandBeyond]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

I disagree, when discussing the themes it is very relevant what other people have said/done.  The themes for messages that the writers are trying to get out in the world, which exist along with messages of other writers, and can form rebuttles, or expansions, or a number of thing, the fact that the Reapers resembled lovecraft horrors should have been a tip of the hat as to, if you want to discuss themes, read lovecraft, it will help.  What you are starting to talk about is strictly narrative.

That makes no sense.  And there is no coherent message they were trying to get out in the world with this mess.  Unless it's that genocide, molestation, godhood, or suicide are great ways to end a game.

No person should have to read Lovecraft to understand what the writers are trying to say in ME.  ME should explain ME.  But even Lovecraft isn't essential reading.  Twitter is.

Stories that require you to consult other sources to understand their message are poorly written stories.  It is ok to consult other sources to fully enjoy what you have read in a story, but it should not be essential to understanding the story you are reading.

For one thing, this is a game with a story.  You pay for the game and story.  Requiring people to buy or obtain another story elsewhere (that they may not be able to) in order to understand the game they are playing is BS.

If I am reading Dune, then Dune should explain Dune.  If I am playing ME then ME should explain ME.  Any reference to any other source if just for fun but should not be relevant to understanding the plot.

Basically you are saying it's ok for a story to say something and then tell you if the main plot and theme doesn't make sense we don't care and won't explain it-go read something else to understand it.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 23 juillet 2012 - 05:28 .

[LinksOcarina]

[quote]crimzontearz wrote...

[quote]LinksOcarina wrote...

[quote]crimzontearz wrote...

first off I was referring to Walters, second it is not a wit hunt but simple logic.....they managed to rip my all time favorite series in 10 minutes through one of the worst train wrecks I have ever seen....worse they were completely unapologetic and borderline insulting about it and even if you were not to think the last part quite simply if they go the franchise is back in the hands of people who actually freaking care about it and the fans.

And you know what? My ancestors had a saying "promoveatur ut amoveatur" you don't even have to fire them, promote them if you want give them a goddamn medal as long as they are NOT influencing the next titles.[/quote]

Thats not logic, thats confirmation bias with an axe to grind.

[/quote]
Mass effect 1 and 2 had great peer reviewed endings...fact

Mass Effect 3 had one of the worst endings ever (arguably)

said ending was concocted without peer review by Mac and Casey...
 
to this day their apology line is "we are sorry YOU found it subpar"


All this after losing a good part of the original writing team

 
I am just connecting the dots here

[/quote]
[/quote]

No, you are confirming a bias.

We have no proof of it not being a peer-reviewed ending other than a supposed post by Pat Weekes, which again is not proof of anything since it is at best a rumor. 

That is the definition of a confirmation bias dude. You are connecting dots that may not even exist. 

[F4H bandicoot]

Doesn't stop the fact that 1 and 2 have good endings and 3's is utter ****

[ZLurps]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Doesn't stop the fact that 1 and 2 have good endings and 3's is utter ****

Well, personally, I think it really is something awful when it makes end boss battle of ME2 look good in comparison.

(Seriously, Suicide mission was good, tad short but good).

[crimzontearz]

[quote]LinksOcarina wrote...

[quote]crimzontearz wrote...

[quote]LinksOcarina wrote...

[quote]crimzontearz wrote...

first off I was referring to Walters, second it is not a wit hunt but simple logic.....they managed to rip my all time favorite series in 10 minutes through one of the worst train wrecks I have ever seen....worse they were completely unapologetic and borderline insulting about it and even if you were not to think the last part quite simply if they go the franchise is back in the hands of people who actually freaking care about it and the fans.

And you know what? My ancestors had a saying "promoveatur ut amoveatur" you don't even have to fire them, promote them if you want give them a goddamn medal as long as they are NOT influencing the next titles.[/quote]

Thats not logic, thats confirmation bias with an axe to grind.

[/quote]
Mass effect 1 and 2 had great peer reviewed endings...fact

Mass Effect 3 had one of the worst endings ever (arguably)

said ending was concocted without peer review by Mac and Casey...
 
to this day their apology line is "we are sorry YOU found it subpar"


All this after losing a good part of the original writing team

 
I am just connecting the dots here

[/quote]

No, you are confirming a bias.

We have no proof of it not being a peer-reviewed ending other than a supposed post by Pat Weekes, which again is not proof of anything since it is at best a rumor. 

That is the definition of a confirmation bias dude. You are connecting dots that may not even exist. [/quote]

[/quote]
 
And yet bioware never directly denied it AND weeks account was never hacked AND he quoted verbatim entire paragraphs of his post to a fan at PAX

You are climbing mirrors


 

Modifié par crimzontearz, 23 juillet 2012 - 05:39 .

[F4H bandicoot]

ZLurps wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Doesn't stop the fact that 1 and 2 have good endings and 3's is utter ****

Well, personally, I think it really is something awful when it makes end boss battle of ME2 look good in comparison.

(Seriously, Suicide mission was good, tad short but good).

The human reaper boss battle was good though.... The reaper makes sense, the ending makes sense, no specualtion....

[Shaigunjoe]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

I disagree, when discussing the themes it is very relevant what other people have said/done.  The themes for messages that the writers are trying to get out in the world, which exist along with messages of other writers, and can form rebuttles, or expansions, or a number of thing, the fact that the Reapers resembled lovecraft horrors should have been a tip of the hat as to, if you want to discuss themes, read lovecraft, it will help.  What you are starting to talk about is strictly narrative.

That makes no sense.  And there is no coherent message they were trying to get out in the world with this mess.  Unless it's that genocide, molestation, godhood, or suicide are great ways to end a game.

No person should have to read Lovecraft to understand what the writers are trying to say in ME.  ME should explain ME.  But even Lovecraft isn't essential reading.  Twitter is.

Stories that require you to consult other sources to understand their message are poorly written stories.  It is ok to consult other sources to fully enjoy what you have read in a story, but it should not be essential to understanding the story you are reading.

For one thing, this is a game with a story.  You pay for the game and story.  Requiring people to buy or obtain another story elsewhere (that they may not be able to) in order to understand the game they are playing is BS.

If I am reading Dune, then Dune should explain Dune.  If I am playing ME then ME should explain ME.  Any reference to any other source if just for fun but should not be relevant to understanding the plot.

Basically you are saying it's ok for a story to say something and then tell you if the main plot and theme doesn't make sense we don't care and won't explain it-go read something else to understand it.

Again, you are confusing themes and narratives.  Neil Gaimen, Mark Twain, Hemingway, and many many other authors would disagree with you that allusions to other works are 'just for fun'.  In stating that, you pretty much doing yourself a diservice as a consumer of literature.  There is much more there.

The message you get to take away is one of your choosing, and probably unique to each person.  The one thing I took away from the resolution of the reaper conflict is that Lovecraft is wrong.

[ZLurps]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Doesn't stop the fact that 1 and 2 have good endings and 3's is utter ****

Well, personally, I think it really is something awful when it makes end boss battle of ME2 look good in comparison.

(Seriously, Suicide mission was good, tad short but good).

The human reaper boss battle was good though.... The reaper makes sense, the ending makes sense, no specualtion....

I was there shooting it and thinking how it could easily wipe us all from the platform... But enough, I agree to disagee.

Agree on other points though.

Modifié par ZLurps, 23 juillet 2012 - 05:43 .

[F4H bandicoot]

ZLurps wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Doesn't stop the fact that 1 and 2 have good endings and 3's is utter ****

Well, personally, I think it really is something awful when it makes end boss battle of ME2 look good in comparison.

(Seriously, Suicide mission was good, tad short but good).

The human reaper boss battle was good though.... The reaper makes sense, the ending makes sense, no specualtion....

I was there shooting it and thinking how it could easily wipe us all from the platform... But enough, I agreee to disagee.

It probably could have to be fair. Still.

[Shaigunjoe]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Doesn't stop the fact that 1 and 2 have good endings and 3's is utter ****

Well, personally, I think it really is something awful when it makes end boss battle of ME2 look good in comparison.

(Seriously, Suicide mission was good, tad short but good).

That's always an issue with boss battles though, why didn't king koopa just destroy the bridge mario was on?
The human reaper boss battle was good though.... The reaper makes sense, the ending makes sense, no specualtion....

I was there shooting it and thinking how it could easily wipe us all from the platform... But enough, I agreee to disagee.

It probably could have to be fair. Still.

Thats always the issue with boss fights though, why couldn't King Koopa just destroy the bridge Mario was on, instead of letting Mario do it to him?

Modifié par Shaigunjoe, 23 juillet 2012 - 05:49 .

[incinerator950]

Both write heavily convoluted Story paths. One successfully delivered a (slightly) satisfying ending. The other a (probably) unsatisfying ending.

Both have Plot holes, both have instant win buttons.

[LinksOcarina]

[quote]crimzontearz wrote...

[quote]LinksOcarina wrote...

[quote]crimzontearz wrote...

[quote]LinksOcarina wrote...

[quote]crimzontearz wrote...

first off I was referring to Walters, second it is not a wit hunt but simple logic.....they managed to rip my all time favorite series in 10 minutes through one of the worst train wrecks I have ever seen....worse they were completely unapologetic and borderline insulting about it and even if you were not to think the last part quite simply if they go the franchise is back in the hands of people who actually freaking care about it and the fans.

And you know what? My ancestors had a saying "promoveatur ut amoveatur" you don't even have to fire them, promote them if you want give them a goddamn medal as long as they are NOT influencing the next titles.[/quote]

Thats not logic, thats confirmation bias with an axe to grind.

[/quote]
Mass effect 1 and 2 had great peer reviewed endings...fact

Mass Effect 3 had one of the worst endings ever (arguably)

said ending was concocted without peer review by Mac and Casey...
 
to this day their apology line is "we are sorry YOU found it subpar"


All this after losing a good part of the original writing team

 
I am just connecting the dots here

[/quote]

No, you are confirming a bias.

We have no proof of it not being a peer-reviewed ending other than a supposed post by Pat Weekes, which again is not proof of anything since it is at best a rumor. 

That is the definition of a confirmation bias dude. You are connecting dots that may not even exist. [/quote]

[/quote]
 
And yet bioware never directly denied it AND weeks account was never hacked AND he quoted verbatim entire paragraphs of his post to a fan at PAX

You are climbing mirrors

 [/quote]

A fan at pax where we can't verify th validity of such a claim. Plus they did deny it. 

If you want to keep your bias thats fine dude, just don't expect me to take you seriously when you grasp at shadows. 

[crimzontearz]

No they simply said that "that was not Patrick's post"...they never EVER said the ending was fully peer reviewed and with good reason.

But hey keep rabidly defending them, they thrive in it

[LinksOcarina]

crimzontearz wrote...

No they simply said that "that was not Patrick's post"...they never EVER said the ending was fully peer reviewed and with good reason.

But hey keep rabidly defending them, they thrive in it

They never said that for one or two either, as far as I know.

You proof of them peer reviewing the endings there? 

[FlyingSquirrel]

Anyone else think, in light of all this, that maybe ME would have been better as a series with a somewhat lower-stakes plot that served mostly as a vehicle to explore the characters and all the different societies in the galaxy? Personally, I tended to find a lot of the subplots and their corresponding issues just as interesting as the overall "stop the Reapers" plot.

In ME1, you have the colonists on Feros and the nefarious scheming of ExoGeni, you have all the corporate maneuvering and illicit research on Noveria, and all the politics and personalities of the Citadel. ME2's suicide mission was probably the best part of the game, but past that, I would again argue that some of the recruitment and loyalty missions, as well as the shipboard conversations, were just as compelling as, say, Horizon or the derelict Reaper. And in ME3, it seems like most of us agree that Tuchanka and Rannoch were our favorite sequences, and both of those used the Reaper invasion as a pretext for digging into the societal issues surrounding the krogan, geth, and quarians.

Star Trek TNG, which is probably still my favorite sci-fi franchise, managed to wring plenty of story and character out of smaller-scale issues - while there's occasionally a big existential threat like the Borg, Picard and company aren't constantly out there "saving the galaxy." Mostly they're dealing with things like trying to resolve threats and conflicts within Federation space, head off war with the Romulans, investigate some new phenomenon or technology, etc.

I wonder if the franchise could have been just as successful and popular if Shepard had simply been appointed a Spectre and then sent off to deal with these situations, without the backdrop of an impending galactic war. You could still have the different missions and stories tie together in some sort of larger conspiracy that would culminate in a bigger threat at the end of each game, but without having it be "win this battle or trillions of people die" like in ME1 and ME3. For that matter, ME2 probably could have worked just as well if the Collectors had just been a group of ruthless, evil aliens going off on their own power trip and trying to harvest humans rather than servants of the Reapers.

[incinerator950]

I think Bioware should have just stuck to Kotor and made a third sequel.