247 réponses à ce sujet

[Applepie_Svk]

This is what happened to Saren, watch an think about that.... 

Most interesting quotes from Saren Arterius before he blew his head off:

I´ve change since than improved...I supposed should thank you after Virmire, I couldn´t stop what you said...Sovereign sense my hesitation... no my doubts are gone...The relationship is simbiotic ... the strenght of both and weakness of niether ...I am vision of the future...the evolution of all organic life...The implants Sovereign is too strong - it´s too late for me!

This what happened to TIM, watch and think about again...

Most interesting quotes from The Illusive man on Citadel:


The control is the means to survival...because I need you to believe...This is the way humanity must evolve...Look at the power...I took what I wanted from them, made it my own...I I will.. I know it will work... No I am in control...I know it can I just... I can´t do that comander...That´s not true...I just need to...THEY ARE TOO STRONG!

Most interesting quotes from Dr.Kenson :

[b]I will die never see Reaper´s blessing... I will never see Reaper´s arrival...No we cannot!

BTW: This is how peacefully would end our cycle if Reapers would arrived sooner .... 




                                            Ah, yes, INDOCTRINATION

Do you still believe that you can control the Reapers or merge all life in galaxy by Reaper pattern, aren´t you ?
                                                                     ...None can ...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 22 juillet 2012 - 07:04 .

[mjboldy]

I agree with IT but unfortunately for us, I don't think Bioware will be going that route.

[Applepie_Svk]

mjboldy wrote...

I agree with IT but unfortunately for us, I don't think Bioware will be going that route.

They are already going with not denying IT...

[Geneaux486]

Youtube the effects of control and synthesis, both choices wind up working.  Crucible made those options possible, this is stated in the game.  In-game information adresses your concerns.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 22 juillet 2012 - 07:24 .

[MegaSovereign]

So....Pick Destroy?

What's stopping you?

[Sajuro]

MegaSovereign wrote...

So....Pick Destroy?

What's stopping you?

Apparently destroying the catalyst and the reapers still plays into the Catalyst's plans, because he brings up the possibility. The only winning move is not to play... or to shoot the tubes but hey who am I to judge?
Oh that's right
I'm an elf, I get to judge

[MystEU]

There's a long journey from your post to proving that IT is true, but believe what you want. =P I like the interpretable aspect and think IT is a cool idea... but sadly, there's not much hard evidence aside from symbolism that can't go either way (for/against).

[His Name was HYR!!]

Applepie_Svk wrote...


                                            Ah, yes, INDOCTRINATION

Do you still believe that you can control the Reapers or merge all life in galaxy by Reaper pattern, aren´t you ?
                                                                     ...None can ...

The turian councilor only airquotes with two fingers total, not four. We're off to a bad start... =[


My answer is this: "Nothing good ever came of ___ ." is a lousy argument. My mom says if I'm using something free, it can't be very good. So, time to delete my g-mail and photobucket accounts?

Come to think of it, I made a whole thread about the topic of using the Reapers' power against them as a theme in favor of control/synthesis undertones: http://social.biowar...index/12320051.

[Applepie_Svk]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Youtube the effects of control and synthesis, both choices wind up working.  Crucible made those options possible, this is stated in the game.  In-game information adresses your concerns.

This is stated by Catalyst and not by some other source - you can´t believe to something which show in last 5 mins and said YES GO ON ! It´s delusion of choice which gave you Catalyst, ilusion that with presserving the Reapers you can achieve prosperity and without them you achieve oblivion ...

Synthesis is not something what can be force ... but his Reapers already forcing Shepard to act and Catalyst as controler of Reapers also forcing Shepard into action by his passive agresion.

You can Cotntrol the Reapers...So TIM was right after .... Yes but he cannot control us we already control him...
So if TIM was controled and could control Shepard and Anderson´s bodies than there is connection betwen them all.. indoctrination

Otherwise if you want argue about Catalyst itentions than find information stated in game about Zha and Zha´til and you find one greater hole in Catalyst logic...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 22 juillet 2012 - 08:30 .

[Ageless Face]

First of all: Really? Catalyst supporters?

Second of all: What makes you so sure the reapers can never be controlled? Because if wasn't possible before? TIM seemed to control reaper forces. Who thought it was possible? Yet he succeeded. Okay, yeah. Controlling the harvested is different than controlling reapers. But different doesn't make something impossible. Shepard thinking the Crucible will actually help controlling the reapers doesn't say s/he indoctrinated. It could be, how odd and funny in the story of Mass Effect, a leap of faith.

And synthesis is not even what Saren wanted. The DNA merge is not reaper's implants, at least from what I understood. They are merging between synthetic lives and organic. It was never said it was impossible, no matter how much senseless it sounds. More than that, no one will be under reaper control, if that's what bothers you.

A question to you now. All this time Anderson said he wants to destroy the repaers in ME3. How do you know he wasn't indoctrinated while he was on Earth? How do you know destroy option is nothing more than indoctrination attempt? It can be one just as much as control or synthesis.

I think you are a catalyst supporter OP.

[Applepie_Svk]

HagarIshay wrote...

First of all: Really? Catalyst supporters?

Second of all: What makes you so sure the reapers can never be controlled? Because if wasn't possible before? TIM seemed to control reaper forces. Who thought it was possible? Yet he succeeded. Okay, yeah. Controlling the harvested is different than controlling reapers. But different doesn't make something impossible. Shepard thinking the Crucible will actually help controlling the reapers doesn't say s/he indoctrinated. It could be, how odd and funny in the story of Mass Effect, a leap of faith.

And synthesis is not even what Saren wanted. The DNA merge is not reaper's implants, at least from what I understood. They are merging between synthetic lives and organic. It was never said it was impossible, no matter how much senseless it sounds. More than that, no one will be under reaper control, if that's what bothers you.

A question to you now. All this time Anderson said he wants to destroy the repaers in ME3. How do you know he wasn't indoctrinated while he was on Earth? How do you know destroy option is nothing more than indoctrination attempt? It can be one just as much as control or synthesis.

I think you are a catalyst supporter OP.

What? 


Are you serious, controling few mindless husk somewhere on Horizon is uterly different than controling whole fleet of Reapers, even if TIM achieved little success in his research it would took maybe another few years to accomplish controling of the Reapers... And even if he achieved real success than it was mistake to implant own body with unkown Reaper implants...

Shepard was indoctrinated on basic of that the TIM could manipulate Shepard´s body, you like it or not - Reapers prove it possibile with using bodies. Again we don´t know what reverse engineering used TIM to ressurecting Shepard, it could be part of Reaper technology - they have access to Reaper tech - it was proved by ME1,ME2,ME3... :+)

Destroy is by pattern of Catalyst the way of destroying Reapers for cost of war - which made look previous two options better, you will achieve the utopia,dude just presserve the Reapers....

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 22 juillet 2012 - 08:38 .

[Ageless Face]

Applepie_Svk wrote...
Are you serious, controling few mindless husk somewhere on Horizon is uterly different than controling whole fleet of Reapers, even if TIM achieved little success in his research it would took maybe another few years to accomplish controling of the Reapers... And even if he achieved real success than it was mistake to implant own body with unkown Reaper implants...

 

I see somone read evething I wrote... <_<

Let me quote it out for you: 

  
Okay, yeah. Controlling the harvested is different than controlling reapers. But different doesn't make something impossible.

 

Difficult =/= impossible

Reapers can be destroyed, why can't they be controlled? The Crucible is a very high tech device. No one said the Crucible won't control the Reapers.

 
Shepard was indoctrinated on basic of that the TIM could manipulate Shepard´s body, you like it or not - Reapers prove it possibile with using bodies. Again we don´t know what reverse engineering used TIM to ressurecting Shepard, it could be part of Reaper technology - they have access to Reaper tech - it was proved by ME1,ME2,ME3... :+)

So? Does that mean Shepard was indoctrinated? It didn't even work in the same way, for god sake. Indoctrination is manipulating the mind. TIM only manipulated the body. Shepard could talk like him/herself. If that was the case, then even if it was reaper tech, it works differently. It might use people that aren't even indcotrinated.

Destroy is by pattern of Catalyst the way of destroying Reapers for cost of war - which made look previous two options better, you will achieve the utopia,dude just presserve the Reapers....

So?

Modifié par HagarIshay, 22 juillet 2012 - 08:53 .

[Applepie_Svk]

HagarIshay wrote...

So? Does that mean Shepard was indoctrinated? It didn't even work in the same way, for god sake. Indoctrination is manipulating the mind. TIM only manipulated the body. Shepard could talk like him/herself. If that was the case, then even if it was reaper tech, it works differently. It might use people that aren't even indcotrinated.

 

You must look from possition of TIM, indoctrination gave him ilusion that he is in charge - allow him to control Shepard and Anderson but he couldn´t achieved own plan as controling the Reaper. Shepard could only survived with breaking the indoctrination in TIM, by provoking into self-destruction or figt. It was TIM who deny implanting Shepard with failsafe and yet he could control the Shepard´s body .... 

So?

The point is that Catalyst saying that only with presserving his sulotion you can achieve peace and without him you will achieve war again... It´s forcing you to think about greater picture - what will be better to destroy Reapers and fight again in few centuries again ? Or presserving the solution and create utopia ? It was delusion which planted indoctrination in front of eyes of Saren and TIM that only with subduing into the Reaper goals you can achieved survival of everyone but it´s sweet lie - once after what you agree with implants you are nothing just a tool.

[DirtyPhoenix]

MegaSovereign wrote...

So....Pick Destroy?

What's stopping you?

/Thread

Modifié par pirate1802, 22 juillet 2012 - 09:19 .

[Ageless Face]

Applepie_Svk wrote...
You must look from possition of TIM, indoctrination gave him ilusion that he is in charge - allow him to control Shepard and Anderson but he couldn´t achieved own plan as controling the Reaper. Shepard could only survived with breaking the indoctrination in TIM, by provoking into self-destruction or figt. It was TIM who deny implanting Shepard with failsafe and yet he could control the Shepard´s body ....

Em, no. Indoctrination didn't give him any illusion he was in charge. Indoctrination actaully stopped him from going any further with his plans of control. Why would the reapers want TIM to think he was in control? They destroyed Sanctuary, didn't they? Giving TIM any more reason to think he was in charge will just result in another Sanctuary.

So no. TIM's illusion of contorl didn't have anything to do with indoctrination. It was him being power hungry. As for wether contorl is possible, was never said it wasn't with the Crucible. So I don't see a reason to throw contorl out of the window.

The point is that Catalyst saying that only with presserving his sulotion you can achieve peace and without him you will achieve war again... It´s forcing you to think about greater picture - what will be better to destroy Reapers and fight again in few centuries again ? Or presserving the solution and create utopia ? It was delusion which planted indoctrination in front of eyes of Saren and TIM that only with subduing into the Reaper goals you can achieved survival of everyone but it´s sweet lie - once after what you agree with implants you are nothing just a tool.

The catalyst never said there won't be a war in control. In fact, he says you will die. Did he lie about it? Does that make Shepard free of indcotrination? After all, telling Shepard s/he will die is not a happy remark. It can turn down many players.
He also tells you the reapers will be destroyed if you shoot the tube. That is a good thing about destroy, isn't it?

Have you thought that maybe, just maybe, destroy will also indoctrinate, but on a different level. Or the catalyst might have more use with a slave like Shepard picking synthesis, instead of one picking destroy. What makes Shepard having a better future in destroy? Because Anderson will pick it? If I should pick a choice based on someone else's opinon in the game then clearly I've played Mass Effect wrongly. As did everyone else. Because every decision you make in the game someone will resent it. Even in your own squad.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 22 juillet 2012 - 09:50 .

[Prosarian]

I voted for him. He told me he'd lower taxes, but all I got were these synthetic parts.

[DirtyPhoenix]

HagarIshay wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...
You must look from possition of TIM, indoctrination gave him ilusion that he is in charge - allow him to control Shepard and Anderson but he couldn´t achieved own plan as controling the Reaper. Shepard could only survived with breaking the indoctrination in TIM, by provoking into self-destruction or figt. It was TIM who deny implanting Shepard with failsafe and yet he could control the Shepard´s body ....

Em, no. Indoctrination didn't give him any illusion he was in charge. Indoctrination actaully stopped him from going any further with his plans of control. Why would the reapers want TIM to think he was in control? They destroyed Sanctuary, didn't they? Giving TIM any more reason to think he was in charge will just result in another Sanctuary.

So no. TIM's illusion of contorl didn't have anything to do with indoctrination. It was him being power hungry. As for wether contorl is possible, was never said it wasn't with the Crucible. So I don't see a reason to throw contorl out of the window.

The point is that Catalyst saying that only with presserving his sulotion you can achieve peace and without him you will achieve war again... It´s forcing you to think about greater picture - what will be better to destroy Reapers and fight again in few centuries again ? Or presserving the solution and create utopia ? It was delusion which planted indoctrination in front of eyes of Saren and TIM that only with subduing into the Reaper goals you can achieved survival of everyone but it´s sweet lie - once after what you agree with implants you are nothing just a tool.

The catalyst never said there won't be a war in control. In fact, he says you will die. Did he lie about it? Does that make Shepard free of indcotrination? After all, telling Shepard s/he will die is not a happy remark. It can turn down many players.
He also tells you the reapers will be destroyed if you shoot the tube. That is a good thing about destroy, isn't it?

Have you thought that maybe, just maybe, destroy will also indoctrinate, but on a different level. Or the catalyst might have more use with a slave like Shepard picking synthesis, instead of one picking destroy. What makes Shepard having a better future in destroy? Because Anderson will pick it? If I should pick a choice based on someone else's opinon in the game then clearly I've played Mass Effect wrongly. As did everyone else. Because every decision you make in the game someone will resent it. Even in your own squad.

Everything can be explained as.....

Modifié par pirate1802, 22 juillet 2012 - 10:11 .

[Cypher_CS]

WTF does it mean to be a Catalyst Supporter?

[Applepie_Svk]

Cypher_CS wrote...

WTF does it mean to be a Catalyst Supporter?

Simply said ... deffending his logic 

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 22 juillet 2012 - 10:59 .

[elitehunter34]

Honestly Svk what you say isn't evidence of Indoctrination Theory. It's evidence that the writers changed their mind. Mass Effect 3 beat you over the head with statements about how controlling the Reapers is impossible. The writers suddenly decided that they wanted you to be able to control them, for however arbitrary of a reason.

As for synthesis, it does sound a lot like what Sovereign did to Saren. A complete merge of man and machine. It does make sense how Synthesis sounds like an insidious indoctrination plan because of the similarities. However, it seems that the writers didn't intend this. Maybe they did, but if they do they need a new ending or we'll just have to headcanon it and Bioware's been pretty adamant about how any interpretation the ending is fine. I find that to be completely idiotic because they're acting like they don't want to do anything that takes place after the events of Mass Effect 3. It's a terrible business decision, and its a also a terrible decision because the fans that want to see a post Reaper galaxy won't. I don't give a **** about speculating. If I wanted to do that I'd write my own damn story.

[Cypher_CS]

Look...
There's no evidence for the Indoctrination Theory. Only speculation, plausible as it may be.

Also, I don't think there are any Catalyst Supporters. No's defending the Catalyst's logic, only the Logic's structure.

[SpamBot2000]

Logic IS structure.

[alienatedflea]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

This is what happened to Saren, watch an think about that.... 

Most interesting quotes from Saren Arterius before he blew his head off:

I´ve change since than improved...I supposed should thank you after Virmire, I couldn´t stop what you said...Sovereign sense my hesitation... no my doubts are gone...The relationship is simbiotic ... the strenght of both and weakness of niether ...I am vision of the future...the evolution of all organic life...The implants Sovereign is too strong - it´s too late for me!

This what happened to TIM, watch and think about again...

Most interesting quotes from The Illusive man on Citadel:


The control is the means to survival...because I need you to believe...This is the way humanity must evolve...Look at the power...I took what I wanted from them, made it my own...I I will.. I know it will work... No I am in control...I know it can I just... I can´t do that comander...That´s not true...I just need to...THEY ARE TOO STRONG!

Most interesting quotes from Dr.Kenson :

[b]I will die never see Reaper´s blessing... I will never see Reaper´s arrival...No we cannot!

BTW: This is how peacefully would end our cycle if Reapers would arrived sooner .... 




                                            Ah, yes, INDOCTRINATION

Do you still believe that you can control the Reapers or merge all life in galaxy by Reaper pattern, aren´t you ?
                                                                     ...None can ...

its part of the game...you damn ITers never get the point...if you are indoctrinated, there is no "cure" or "snap out of it" trick...you are a helpless SLAVE (like Saren and TIM) so yes I do believe in the control ending and synthesis...you will never give up on your hopes but that doesnt give you the right to bash other for how they interept the ending...youre an a-hole

[SpamBot2000]

The victims of indoctrination often lash out at those trying to reason with them, calling them a-holes and worse.

[Ageless Face]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

The victims of indoctrination often lash out at those trying to reason with them, calling them a-holes and worse.

I don't recall Kenson calling us in the game A-holes. Neither did Saren or TIM. You should check your facts.