247 réponses à ce sujet

[elitehunter34]

alienatedflea wrote...
its part of the game...you damn ITers never get the point...if you are indoctrinated, there is no "cure" or "snap out of it" trick...you are a helpless SLAVE (like Saren and TIM) so yes I do believe in the control ending and synthesis...you will never give up on your hopes but that doesnt give you the right to bash other for how they interept the ending...youre an a-hole

And you are misunderstanding IT.  IT states that Shepard is fighting off an Indoctrination attempt.  An attempt.
Shepard is not fully indoctrinated in the Indoctrination Theory.  Shepard only becomes fully Indoctrinated if Shepard chooses Synthesis or Control according to the Indoctrination theory.  If you are going to criticize something, at least get your facts straight.

[Ageless Face]

elitehunter34 wrote...
And you are misunderstanding IT.  IT states that Shepard is fighting off an Indoctrination attempt.  An attempt.
Shepard is not fully indoctrinated in the Indoctrination Theory.  Shepard only becomes fully Indoctrinated if Shepard chooses Synthesis or Control according to the Indoctrination theory.  If you are going to criticize something, at least get your facts straight.

I think s/he people who are even in the process of indoctrination can never recover from it. We never saw anyone that was in the process that fought it off. 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 22 juillet 2012 - 12:29 .

[MetioricTest]

HagarIshay wrote...

I think s/he people who are even in the process of indoctrination can never recover from it. We never saw anyone that was in the process that fought it off. 

This is hard to argue because how would we know?

The only example is Benezia who despite literally being inside a Reaper for an extended period of time, managed to keep part of her mind safe.

Which strongly implies you can fight it.  Especially if you don't live in A Reaper.

[Seival]

I think OP is one of the few people who just ignore what the game and its developers tells them.

Control means Control. Synthesis means Synthesis. Destroy means Destroy. Refuse means Surrender. Endings will not be changed. There will be no additional endings. You should deal with it and accept the endings as they are.

[Ageless Face]

MetioricTest wrote...
This is hard to argue because how would we know?

The only example is Benezia who despite literally being inside a Reaper for an extended period of time, managed to keep part of her mind safe.

Which strongly implies you can fight it.  Especially if you don't live in A Reaper.

Fight it for short perioud of time(s)? Yes.

Remove the indoctrination completely? No.

[Archontor]

Sajuro wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

So....Pick Destroy?

What's stopping you?

Apparently destroying the catalyst and the reapers still plays into the Catalyst's plans, because he brings up the possibility. The only winning move is not to play... or to shoot the tubes but hey who am I to judge?
Oh that's right
I'm an elf, I get to judge

A dragon age elf.

You get to shovel **** and little else.

[Applepie_Svk]

Seival wrote...

I think OP is one of the few people who just ignore what the game and its developers tells them.

Hahahaha -
OP: IT - is it true or not ?
developer : Speculate... there is lot of clues and hints around game and some of the parts are pure literal...
OP: So have you intend path of indoctrination or not?
developer: Endings are open for everyone - you can imagine what you want... 

YES Developers tells lot of things but none which would simply burst bubble for one group or another:police:

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 22 juillet 2012 - 12:53 .

[Loaderini]

more dots, OP. the moar dots you type in your answers, the moar deep and correct your thoughts become.

[Ryudoz28]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

This is what happened to Saren, watch an think about that.... 

Most interesting quotes from Saren Arterius before he blew his head off:

I´ve change since than improved...I supposed should thank you after Virmire, I couldn´t stop what you said...Sovereign sense my hesitation... no my doubts are gone...The relationship is simbiotic ... the strenght of both and weakness of niether ...I am vision of the future...the evolution of all organic life...The implants Sovereign is too strong - it´s too late for me!

This what happened to TIM, watch and think about again...

Most interesting quotes from The Illusive man on Citadel:


The control is the means to survival...because I need you to believe...This is the way humanity must evolve...Look at the power...I took what I wanted from them, made it my own...I I will.. I know it will work... No I am in control...I know it can I just... I can´t do that comander...That´s not true...I just need to...THEY ARE TOO STRONG!

Most interesting quotes from Dr.Kenson :

[b]I will die never see Reaper´s blessing... I will never see Reaper´s arrival...No we cannot!

BTW: This is how peacefully would end our cycle if Reapers would arrived sooner .... 




                                            Ah, yes, INDOCTRINATION

Do you still believe that you can control the Reapers or merge all life in galaxy by Reaper pattern, aren´t you ?
                                                                     ...None can ...

https://encrypted-tb...-aAmJ8g063EZeFk

[Geneaux486]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Youtube the effects of control and synthesis, both choices wind up working.  Crucible made those options possible, this is stated in the game.  In-game information adresses your concerns.

This is stated by Catalyst and not by some other source - you can´t believe to something which show in last 5 mins and said YES GO ON ! It´s delusion of choice which gave you Catalyst, ilusion that with presserving the Reapers you can achieve prosperity and without them you achieve oblivion ...

Synthesis is not something what can be force ... but his Reapers already forcing Shepard to act and Catalyst as controler of Reapers also forcing Shepard into action by his passive agresion.

You can Cotntrol the Reapers...So TIM was right after .... Yes but he cannot control us we already control him...
So if TIM was controled and could control Shepard and Anderson´s bodies than there is connection betwen them all.. indoctrination

Otherwise if you want argue about Catalyst itentions than find information stated in game about Zha and Zha´til and you find one greater hole in Catalyst logic...

As I've said, watch the endings on youtube.  They clearly show synthesis and control being achieved.  The game disproves your assertions.

[Kamfrenchie]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Youtube the effects of control and synthesis, both choices wind up working.  Crucible made those options possible, this is stated in the game.  In-game information adresses your concerns.

This is stated by Catalyst and not by some other source - you can´t believe to something which show in last 5 mins and said YES GO ON ! It´s delusion of choice which gave you Catalyst, ilusion that with presserving the Reapers you can achieve prosperity and without them you achieve oblivion ...

Synthesis is not something what can be force ... but his Reapers already forcing Shepard to act and Catalyst as controler of Reapers also forcing Shepard into action by his passive agresion.

You can Cotntrol the Reapers...So TIM was right after .... Yes but he cannot control us we already control him...
So if TIM was controled and could control Shepard and Anderson´s bodies than there is connection betwen them all.. indoctrination

Otherwise if you want argue about Catalyst itentions than find information stated in game about Zha and Zha´til and you find one greater hole in Catalyst logic...

As I've said, watch the endings on youtube.  They clearly show synthesis and control being achieved.  The game disproves your assertions.

If you  destroyed the base in Mass effect 2, everything blew up, but in ME3 the baby reaper survives regardless...contradiction ?

[elitehunter34]

HagarIshay wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...
This is hard to argue because how would we know?

The only example is Benezia who despite literally being inside a Reaper for an extended period of time, managed to keep part of her mind safe.

Which strongly implies you can fight it.  Especially if you don't live in A Reaper.

Fight it for short perioud of time(s)? Yes.

Remove the indoctrination completely? No.

Well one could say in Indoctrination Theory Shepard fights the Indoctrination Attempt long enough that so that Shepard can destroy the Reapers.  No more Reapers means no more means to continue Indoctrination, and Shepard could get the help he/she needs to fully undo the damage.  Not being near a Reaper might be all that's necessary to begin the process of reversing it's damage.  We don't know for sure.

[Applepie_Svk]

Kamfrenchie wrote...


As I've said, watch the endings on youtube.  They clearly show synthesis and control being achieved.  The game disproves your assertions.

None said that it realy happened, why the Stargazer scene for each ending from Catalyst´s menu choice is same ?
The Stargazer should lead into 4 different realities, but instead of that he is only in 2 Catalyst/Refusal...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 22 juillet 2012 - 03:02 .

[The Angry One]

Seival wrote...

I think OP is one of the few people who just ignore what the game and its developers tells them.

Says Mr. "The Normandy was testing a rebuilt relay!"

Control means Control. Synthesis means Synthesis. Destroy means Destroy. Refuse means Surrender. Endings will not be changed. There will be no additional endings. You should deal with it and accept the endings as they are.

How the hell does refuse mean surrender?

[Arisugawa]

The Angry One wrote...

Seival wrote...

Control means Control. Synthesis means Synthesis. Destroy means Destroy. Refuse means Surrender. Endings will not be changed. There will be no additional endings. You should deal with it and accept the endings as they are.

How the hell does refuse mean surrender?

Refusal can be interpreted as a surrender because in the end, you allow the Reapers to do exactly what they came to do. Eliminate life, continue the cycle, etc. Regardless of the moral stand you took against the Catalyst, it can still be seen as laying down your burden and letting the enemy win.

I'm not saying that's what Refusal is supposed to mean, mind you, but I can see how some would interpret it as such.

Modifié par Arisugawa, 22 juillet 2012 - 03:12 .

[Geneaux486]

If you destroyed the base in Mass effect 2, everything blew up, but in ME3 the baby reaper survives regardless...contradiction ?

Peices of the human-reaper survive the explosion.  We knew even in Lair of the Shadow Broker that tthe destroyed Collector Base left debris in its wake.  Not only is there no contradiction, but none of that has any relevance to what I said about the ending of ME3 either.

Arisugawa wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Seival wrote...

Control means Control. Synthesis means Synthesis. Destroy means Destroy. Refuse means Surrender. Endings will not be changed. There will be no additional endings. You should deal with it and accept the endings as they are.

How the hell does refuse mean surrender?

Refusal can be interpreted as a surrender because in the end, you allow the Reapers to do exactly what they came to do. Eliminate life, continue the cycle, etc. Regardless of the moral stand you took against the Catalyst, it can still be seen as laying down your burden and letting the enemy win.

I'm not saying that's what Refusal is supposed to mean, mind you, but I can see how some would interpret it as such.

Exactly, the Crucible is in position, Shepard's mission is to activate it at all costs, and in Refusal, Shepard turns his back on his orders, his friends, and his allies, who suffered and died to build the thing and get it into place, walks away from his own weapon, and allows the Reapers to continue their cycle.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 22 juillet 2012 - 03:42 .

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Exactly, the Crucible is in position, Shepard's mission is to activate it at all costs, and in Refusal, Shepard turns his back on his orders, his friends, and his allies, walks away from his own weapon, and allows the Reapers to continue their cycle.

Yeah except it's not a weapon. It's a tool for the Catalyst to continue it's agenda and impose it's vision on the galaxy one way or another.
Using it is surrender. Murder your allies, make Reapers overlords of the galaxy or have them win entirely. Take your pick.

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...
Yeah except it's not a weapon. It's a tool for the Catalyst to continue it's agenda and impose it's vision on the galaxy one way or another.

No, it's a weapon the Catalyst had nothing to do with, designed and constructed by organics, and used by one.  This is stated and shown in-game numerous times.

Using it is surrender. Murder your allies, make Reapers overlords of the galaxy or have them win entirely. Take your pick.

Incorrect.  Destroy takes down the Geth, yes, but control makes Reapers an extension of Shepard's will, as is illustrated in the epiologue scences.  Synthesis strengthens organic DNA with synthetic mustation while granting people a deeper understanding of each other's hearts and minds, resulting in peace.  It's a better solution to the probelm the Reapers were trying to solve than the Reapers were ever capable of, and it invalidates everything they've done up to this point.  It is no more a victory for them than their own destruction would be.  I'm of the opinion that if synthesis is the final evoutionary stage, organics will get there on their own, so I choose control and make my Shepard the warden of the Reapers.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 22 juillet 2012 - 03:46 .

[AresKeith]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Yeah except it's not a weapon. It's a tool for the Catalyst to continue it's agenda and impose it's vision on the galaxy one way or another.

No, it's a weapon the Catalyst had nothing to do with, designed and constructed by organics, and used by one.  This is stated and shown in-game numerous times.

Using it is surrender. Murder your allies, make Reapers overlords of the galaxy or have them win entirely. Take your pick.

Incorrect.  Destroy takes down the Geth, yes, but control makes Reapers an extension of Shepard's will, as is illustrated in the epiologue scences.  Synthesis strengthens organic DNA with synthetic mustation while granting people a deeper understanding of each other's hearts and minds, resulting in peace.  I'm of the opinion that if synthesis is the final evoutionary stage, organics will get there on their own, so I choose control and make my Shepard the warden of the Reapers.

the Catalyst knew about the Crucible, he refused to tell Shepard who first created it, and he calledmit a power source, so its not a Weapon

Modifié par AresKeith, 22 juillet 2012 - 03:46 .

[Geneaux486]

AresKeith wrote...
the Catalyst knew about the Crucible, he refused to tell Shepard who first created it, and he calledmit a power source, so its not a Weapon

It can klll the Reapers.  It absolutely is a weapon.  Furthermore, the Catalyst tells Shepard the name of the race that created it would mean nothing to him, which is true, what does it matter.  Catalyst also said the Crucible changed it, and created new possibilities, so obviously, while it may have been a power source, it was also capable of much more than that.

[Arisugawa]

The Angry One wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Exactly, the Crucible is in position, Shepard's mission is to activate it at all costs, and in Refusal, Shepard turns his back on his orders, his friends, and his allies, walks away from his own weapon, and allows the Reapers to continue their cycle.

Yeah except it's not a weapon. It's a tool for the Catalyst to continue it's agenda and impose it's vision on the galaxy one way or another.
Using it is surrender. Murder your allies, make Reapers overlords of the galaxy or have them win entirely. Take your pick.

To a certain extent, you can argue that it is surrender regardless of what you do. You either let the Reapers win outright by Refusing, or you capitulate to their whims and use the Crucible.

Taking a great moral stand against the Catalyst is all fine and good, but in the end, for Shepard and this Cycle, it amounts to surrender, since the Reapers do what they came here to do.

Using the Crucible is all well and good, but in the end, for Shepard and this Cycle, it amounts to surrender, since you are using options gifted to you by the Reaper God to end the war (Control & Destroy), or doing exactly what the Reapers want (Synthesis).

Modifié par Arisugawa, 22 juillet 2012 - 03:49 .

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

No, it's a weapon the Catalyst had nothing to do with, designed and constructed by organics, and used by one.  This is stated and shown in-game numerous times.

Which turns out to be little more than a power source, meaning that it's supposed functions are and always have been built into the Citadel.

Incorrect.  Destroy takes down the Geth, yes, but control makes Reapers an extension of Shepard's will, as is illustrated in the epiologue scences.  Synthesis strengthens organic DNA with synthetic mustation while granting people a deeper understanding of each other's hearts and minds, resulting in peace. 

I'm so tired of refuting these ridiculous assertions for synthesis. So allow me to respond in the only manner fitting it:
HAHAHAHA.

It's a better solution to the probelm the Reapers were trying to solve than the Reapers were ever capable of, and it invalidates everything they've done up to this point.  It is no more a victory for them than their own destruction would be.  I'm of the opinion that if synthesis is the final evoutionary stage, organics will get there on their own, so I choose control and make my Shepard the warden of the Reapers.

It is a total victory for them. They've tried it before. It's what they want. As for control, whatever you think happens, Reapers remain in control of the galaxy. Nothing will happen without their consent. That isn't what I fought for.

Regardless of any benefits you percieve, the fact remains - it's surrender. The only choice to resist the Reapers is refuse.

[Geneaux486]

Arisugawa wrote...
Using the Crucible is all well and good, but in the end, for Shepard and this Cycle, it amounts to surrender, since you are using options gifted to you by the Reaper God to end the war (Control & Destroy), or doing exactly what the Reapers want (Synthesis).

A common misconception.  The Catalyst doesn't determine the functions of the Crucible, the quality of its construction does.  "The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make them happen."  The options are build into the Crucible, a device who's origins the Reapers had no known involvement in.  The Catalyst, in aiding you in the activation of your weapon, is actually surrendering to you, not vice versa. 

Which turns out to be little more than a power source, meaning that it's supposed functions are and always have been built into the Citadel.

"The Crucible changed me, created new possibilities."

I'm so tired of refuting these ridiculous assertions for synthesis. So allow me to respond in the only manner fitting it:
HAHAHAHA.

You can't refute something that is outright stated in the game.  As for your chosen response, I'm surprised to hear it from you.  That kind of crap is beneath you.

It is a total victory for them. They've tried it before. It's what they want.

 
It is something they were incapable of doing, proof that their perceived superiority was a lie. 

As for control, whatever you think happens, Reapers remain in control of the galaxy. Nothing will happen without their consent. That isn't what I fought for.

The opposite of this winds up being the case as shown in the EC.

Regardless of any benefits you percieve, the fact remains - it's surrender. The only choice to resist the Reapers is refuse.

No, using the Crucible ends the Reaper threat, it's the Catalyst surrendering to you.  This is shown to us by the victory that results in all three choices, whether it's the destruction of the Reapers, their conversion into servants of the galaxy at Shepard's command, or their liberation from their imposed functions by synthesis.  To say otherwise is to ignore the endings themselves.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 22 juillet 2012 - 03:55 .

[The Angry One]

Arisugawa wrote...

Taking a great moral stand against the Catalyst is all fine and good, but in the end, for Shepard and this Cycle, it amounts to surrender, since the Reapers do what they came here to do.

Yes well it only really amounts to "surrender" because Walters forces Shepard to stand there and do nothing when I can think of at least one strategy to try which could potentially cripple the Reapers (eliminating the Catalyst).
Walters forces this outcome into victory for the Reapers in order to shove how unbeatable they are down our throats.

[LinksOcarina]

The Angry One wrote...

Arisugawa wrote...

Taking a great moral stand against the Catalyst is all fine and good, but in the end, for Shepard and this Cycle, it amounts to surrender, since the Reapers do what they came here to do.

Yes well it only really amounts to "surrender" because Walters forces Shepard to stand there and do nothing when I can think of at least one strategy to try which could potentially cripple the Reapers (eliminating the Catalyst).
Walters forces this outcome into victory for the Reapers in order to shove how unbeatable they are down our throats.

But the galaxy wins in the end, so the Reapers are beatable.

We just don't pull the trigger, we give it to someone else to pull instead.